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'Reasonable force' or 'murder'?

144 posts in this topic

you really don't want to leave burglars alive, they will sue you and win, it happened before. not to mention big chance he will come back later, not to rob, but to kill you this time. it also happened before.

use.44 mag, and kill them with first shot, .22 is for target practice, not home defence.

he did the right thing the wrong way.

Only if the first bullet kills is it the right thing. Unless you're dealing with some real bad guys who are actively trying to kill you even if they went down first then you do what you have to do. This guy didn't have to do what he did. That said, with these kids dead I'm sure the world hasn't lost anything.

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it doesn't have to be first shot, you shoot as many times as it takes them to stop moving, and it doesn't matter if they move laying down on the floor, you still shoot until they freeze. ( 1 shot with.44mag in the chest will at least drop you, and most likely kill). if you don't have .44, you just keep shooting. just like cops do here 30-40 shots at one person, only 10 hits. lol.

how, if intruders dropped disabled, and you shoot them on the floor, to make sure they are dead. in the eyes of the law it is not self defence anymore. not that i agree, but law is a law.

Edited by aztek

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Well sure everything is circumstantial but this was a teenage girl not Michael Myers.

I think it's clear you'd shoot somebody and I would too but if an unarmed teenage girl broke into your house and you dropped her thereby eliminating any real threat could you honestly say that you would walk up to her and blow her brains out execution style? Maybe we don't need you to answer that but if you did would you feel justified in doing so?

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it doesn't have to be first shot, you shoot as many times as it takes them to stop moving, and it doesn't matter if they move laying down on the floor, you still shoot until they freeze. ( 1 shot with.44mag in the chest will at least drop you, and most likely kill). if you don't have .44, you just keep shooting. just like cops do here 30-40 shots at one person, only 10 hits. lol.

how, if intruders dropped disabled, and you shoot them on the floor, to make sure they are dead. in the eyes of the law it is not self defence anymore. not that i agree, but law is a law.

Even that is different from putting a gun under the chin of someone on the ground and blowing the top of their head off. Popping off more shots in fear or stress because someone kept moving is understandable, but going slowly over, pulling up their head, placing the gun under the chin, at just the right angle, and pulling the trigger is murder, not defense.

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Yeah, not sure how the law works in that state, but I'm fairly certain that continuing to shoot at a "downed" intruder if there is no clear or reasonably assumed continued threat it is aggravated involuntary manslaughter. If there IS a reasonably perceived threat you're OK.

However, the fact that he put the gun under her chin and killed her when she was down, that, in my book, becomes at that point premeditated murder. An "execution"

EDIT: But states are different regarding the defiinition of premeditation. And I'm no lawyer, but what he did, in my mind, was clearly wrong, and likely elevates the potential charges against him.

Edited by pallidin
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but if an unarmed teenage girl broke into your house and you dropped her thereby eliminating any real threat could you honestly say that you would walk up to her and blow her brains out execution style?

no i would not. even if it was fat old stinky man. i'd try to get the job done right with first shots, but i really hope i would not have to kill anyone. even if justified.

the fact that it would be a teen age girl would not matter 1 bit. they are just as deadly. even more since most would hesitate to shoot them.

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Even that is different from putting a gun under the chin of someone on the ground and blowing the top of their head off. Popping off more shots in fear or stress because someone kept moving is understandable, but going slowly over, pulling up their head, placing the gun under the chin, at just the right angle, and pulling the trigger is murder, not defense.

\

yes, i agree

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no i would not. even if it was fat old stinky man. i'd try to get the job done right with first shots, but i really hope i would not have to kill anyone. even if justified.

the fact that it would be a teen age girl would not matter 1 bit. they are just as deadly. even more since most would hesitate to shoot them.

Killing a grown man is one thing but to see a kids face and still have the will to kill takes an entirely different mindset I think and my point was that I believe at the face of this story that this guy is definitely off his rocker. I think even some seasoned murderers would agree with that. Any seasoned murderers here to back me up? If so, don't go dodging my question now.

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Killing a grown man is one thing but to see a kids face and still have the will to kill takes an entirely different mindset I think

it take simple mindset, either that cute kids face kills you, or you kill her, idk about you, but i,m not willing to gamble like that. braking into my house, she already gave me good reasons not to trust her. and expect anything.

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If someone breaks into my house and I'm there...I will kill them...dead...and then ask the tough questions...if they are running away...no.

And Guess What...at least in Texas (at least the last time I checked) you can shoot someone running off with your stuff..but...there is also a thing called CIVIL SUIT! Yeah, is it worth getting sued by the relatives of the deceased over a 300 guitar? Your call...

Take my stuff...but if you threaten me...I will kill you! And being in my house is threatening me.

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there are laws in some states that prohibit suing a victim.

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it take simple mindset, either that cute kids face kills you, or you kill her, idk about you, but i,m not willing to gamble like that. braking into my house, she already gave me good reasons not to trust her. and expect anything.

But that's the whole point Aztek, nothing in this story says she was a threat after the first shot and nothing suggests she had any ability to cause further harm. All she had was a laugh and unless she was a laughing screaming banshee I can't condone blowing her head off. Don't mistake me for defending the criminal kids. I already said they were worthless. A gamble is when it's dark or something's blocking your view and you can't assess the threat. Unless your up against Jack Bauer grabbing a wounded person by the head and putting your pistol under their chin is no longer a gamble. At that point it's safe to say you are in control of the situation.

Edited by -Mr_Fess-

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Both sides screwed up bad.

Firing shots at intruders is very understandable. Dragging them into the basement afterwards and blowing their brains out is not. Old man is obviously messed up.

Those teens should have known that home invasion is one of the most dangerous crimes you can commit. You just might pick the wrong place to rob and break into a nutjob's house.

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you really don't want to leave burglars alive, they will sue you and win, it happened before. not to mention big chance he will come back later, not to rob, but to kill you this time. it also happened before.

Yeah, but like JOC just pointed out... The robbers familys are still going to sue you. And their Criminal friends are probably going to come over and Rob him again, once he's put into cuffs and held in the local jail pending a bond hearing. So... you can't win by killing robbers. You can only win by defending your home. It is not like this guy was in the middle of the Louisiana Bayou and could fire as many bullets as he wanted and dump the bodies into a swamp. People heard the shots and police showed up within minutes.

Edited by DieChecker

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Man, I don't know. This whole story sounds fishy. The girl, after hearing several shots, decides to go into the basement to check it out? The guy moves the bodies?

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Man, I don't know. This whole story sounds fishy. The girl, after hearing several shots, decides to go into the basement to check it out? The guy moves the bodies?

Yeah, I agree. It seems quite bizarre.

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http://www.dailymail...anksgiving.html

Friends and relatives say the teens should not have been shot dead. This is the eighth time his home has been robbed and the dead teens were more than likely responsible for at least some of those crimes.

I think if you trespass you have to accept that anything could happen to you ..... that's a risk you choose to take. From the article, I think he was perfectly justified in what he did. What do you think?

i think he murdered them plain and simple.

he sat there and waited for the girl without saying a word, he did not have to shoot either of them. he wanted to and he said as much.

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Yeah, but like JOC just pointed out... The robbers familys are still going to sue you. And their Criminal friends are probably going to come over and Rob him again, once he's put into cuffs and held in the local jail pending a bond hearing. So... you can't win by killing robbers.

Maybe it's because he knew this that he thought he might as well spend the rest of his life in jail?

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While the guy did go overboard and he should be charged with murder, I still think the burglars are at just as much fault as him for their death.

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While the guy did go overboard and he should be charged with murder, I still think the burglars are at just as much fault as him for their death.

Yes, they put themselves in a bad position. And really, the parents should have taught them right from wrong. If they were getting help for the girl and her drug problem, or were invilved enough in her life to know about the drug problem, this might have been avoided.

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I'm a firm believer in warning shots and scaring the living sh* out of someone with everything you got.

It sounds like he had opportunity for a warning shot. Yet when the kid laughed at his his jammed gun and didn't run what did he think? This guy is wacked? and shot him.

However, shooting a second time in the face because the kid laughed at you, is not even close to protecting your home. But it's like when cops beat up suspects after a chase. It's wrong but it happens, there is a psychological reason for it, and no it is not "because they are racist or bullies or love to beat up people".

Wrong! Warning shots are stupid. If you knew thing one about self defense you would know better. If you pull a gun shoot to hit the target. A warning shot gives them time to shoot back and puts you at unescessary risk.

That being said this guy murdered that girl and should be punished. He went too far. You don't put a person "out of thier misery" like you would a wounded animal. You call 911 and get an ambulance over ASAP.

It is rather pathetic how the article paints these two criminals who are ultimately responsible for thier own deaths because it was thier own actions which led to the shootings.

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He has the right to defend himself and his property.

I agree, however, that he took it too far once they were incapacitated. And, by not calling law enforcement immediately, committed a felony. He should be prosecuted.

There are countless books, videos, and workshops that have been developed to instruct law abiding gun owners in how to handle themselves in these situations.

I do find it ironic in these types of instances that the perpetrators are always, role models, star students, great kids, etc. No they weren't. They were criminals.

Edited by Rafterman
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Perhaps I've missed it, but it there a current media link on this case.

Realizing that the police might be keeping some details to theirself's.

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Perhaps I've missed it, but it there a current media link on this case.

Realizing that the police might be keeping some details to theirself's.

I couldn't find anything new ..... Smith has been charged with second degree murder.

I've had some more thoughts about this sad event: Smith has no criminal history but the teens have a list of crimes pending investigation, including robbing a teacher the night before this event! Plus, the girl had burgled her own sister's house(to steal prescription drugs?) ..... her sister said she(the dead teen) had had treatment for drug abuse in the past. These two were obviously just going to go on committing crimes as long as they could get away with them ..... maybe getting bolder and violent as time went by. Smith has done his community a favour.

Maybe Smith thought there were more intruders than just the two? Perhaps there was no other way out of the basement other than up the stairs that the teens had come down? How frightening would that be? I'm not surprised he felt he had to 'finish them off' ..... he didn't know how many others he might still have to face.

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Wrong! Warning shots are stupid. If you knew thing one about self defense you would know better. If you pull a gun shoot to hit the target. A warning shot gives them time to shoot back and puts you at unescessary risk.

That being said this guy murdered that girl and should be punished. He went too far. You don't put a person "out of thier misery" like you would a wounded animal. You call 911 and get an ambulance over ASAP.

It is rather pathetic how the article paints these two criminals who are ultimately responsible for thier own deaths because it was thier own actions which led to the shootings.

Where did I ever say this guy was right shooting her in the face? It was a sick move. All I said is there is a psychological reason for excessive force, but I didn't know if it was true in his case. But I said it was still wrong, more than once.

If warning shots are stupid where did the term come from? And why do people live to tell about using them?

This guy even had several warning break-ins.

Every situation is different. There are thousands of scenarios. Since when is every perp even armed with a gun?

Would it have worked here? Were the teens armed with guns?

Heck the ones breaking into where I was left because I just told them I had a gun. No shots, and they never saw the gun I actually did not have.

And under your logic a gun shot to the perp is the only ever effective means of defense. And that is false.

What about owning mace? Or knowing self-defense moves? Or when the perp hears the sirens of the cops you called?

If these have been used effectively in situations, then so could a warning shot be used.

And if warning shots are pointless Or "stupid" as you call them, and will result in harm to you, then so are all nonlethal means of defense: alarm system, calling 911, a dog, self defense knowledge, mace, locking yourself in a bathroom, calling for help, exiting the building, etc,

Edited by QuiteContrary

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