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'Reasonable force' or 'murder'?

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"Fearful of other recent break-ins, he shot Schaeffel when he came into view.

When the teenager tumbled down the stars, Smith shot him in the face as he lay on the floor, looking up.

'I want him dead,' the complaint quoted Smith as telling an investigator.

He dragged the body into his workshop and then sat in the chair, the complaint said. When Kifer began walking down the stairs, he shot her and she fell down the stairs.

He tried to shoot her again with his rifle, but the gun jammed and Kifer laughed at him, the complaint noted.

'If you're trying to shoot somebody and they laugh at you, you go again,' Smith, 64, told investigators, according to a criminal complaint filed Monday.

He then shot her several times in the chest with a .22-caliber revolver, dragged her next to her cousin, and with as she gasped for air, fired a shot under her chin 'up into the cranium'."

How the **** is it justified to shoot someone in the face after you've already rendered them incapable of movement?

How is it justified to sit a someone next to their dead relative, shoot her so she gasps for air, then shoot her again so she is murdered?

No where does he say he asked what they wanted.

He shot them as soon as he saw them. No questions asked. They didn't harm him, they didn't steal anything.

We only have speculation they may have broken in other times, we have no proof at all they did except this one time.

There is no justification in how far he went.

Edited by voidla
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The most common .22 ammo is 950 FPS. Sound barrier is 1079 FPS. You can get high powered ammo up to 1250 FPS. The type of ammo is not specified. I have become interested in shooting recently and can safely say i don't use or need hearing protection with a .22 rifle and hence it is not loud enough to frighten anyone away. In fact, you might not even recognize the sound as gun fire.

have you ever shot .22 indoors?

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Yep, spot on, voidla. No justification for the extent this went to.

Edited by pallidin

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have you ever shot .22 indoors?

On a range yes. It was nothing compared to the 9mm and .45 pistols that were going off right next to me.

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On a range yes. It was nothing compared to the 9mm and .45 pistols that were going off right next to me.

i figured that much.

it is not how it sounds inside the house, with no muffs, try it.

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This is nothing short of murder. He said he wanted him dead so he shot him in the face after the inital shot and him falling down the stairs, then shot the girl, and after she laughed at him, once again after an initial shot and her falling down the stairs, he then shot her multiple times in the chest.

Not saying one bit what these kids did was not reckless, disrespectful and dangerous, they certainly didn't need to die for it.

I agree with protecting yourself and your home, however our laws with guns are extremely strict in Australia and most of these sorts of cases are home owners usings knives or bats of they were in danger, so my thoughts may be different to those in the U.S. But this is so far beyond defense... As far as it seems, neither one even threw a punch or produced a weapon. That's murder in my book.

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So fire a warning shot which lets the intruder know that your armed, and if he has a gun he'll use it. Doesn't sound like a safe option to me.

bolding mine

And if I shoot him first (no warnings), and he's an unarmed kid looking for a tv?

No thank you. I'll suffer with my consequences of a warning shot, even if it leaves my kids without a mom, if I felt it was the best and most prudent decision at the time.

I do see what you are saying. And in certain situations all of you would be exactly right, and I'd shoot the SOB, no warning, no discussion, period.

But for me, scenarios just are not that black and white every time and options are there in other cases.

I can stop a bear lumbering toward my camp by shooting him, or shooting around him, or just letting off firecrackers or making a lot of noise. However, if he is charging me or my kid, shooting him may be my best and only option. All animals are the same pretty much, even the human ones. It all depends...

Edited by QuiteContrary

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This is nothing short of murder. He said he wanted him dead so he shot him in the face after the inital shot and him falling down the stairs, then shot the girl, and after she laughed at him, once again after an initial shot and her falling down the stairs, he then shot her multiple times in the chest.

Not saying one bit what these kids did was not reckless, disrespectful and dangerous, they certainly didn't need to die for it.

I agree with protecting yourself and your home, however our laws with guns are extremely strict in Australia and most of these sorts of cases are home owners usings knives or bats of they were in danger, so my thoughts may be different to those in the U.S. But this is so far beyond defense... As far as it seems, neither one even threw a punch or produced a weapon. That's murder in my book.

I know a lot of Aussies like to go off on our gun laws but before you do(just incase you do) realize that Americans agree with you. This isn't the law or the norm. It was too many crazy people in the same place at the wrong time.

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So fire a warning shot which lets the intruder know that your armed, and if he has a gun he'll use it. Doesn't sound like a safe option to me.

As I stated earlier, maybe I can say this with such confidence because I’ve been in a situation where it (threatening) worked for me.

Two men tried to break down my door, and I had no other exit. They kept body slamming it and one kept cussing “I’m gonna *** kill her”. (They weren’t after me, they had the wrong door)

I’ve never heard anyone angrier in my life. The door had no deadbolt or lock only a chain lock at the top. I had my two babies with me. I felt they were coming through any second.

I threatened them verbally with a .357. One of the men replied “Pull the trigger b*, pull the trigger.”

But despite his reply, they left while I was on a landline with security. So, I've no doubt a warning shot would have sent them running. And left none of us dead or even injured.

Had they kept coming? Yes, I would have shot them if I did not have time to gather my kids and lock all of us safely in the bathroom, until security arrived. The bathroom door was right by the door they were trying to break down, making it a hard decision in just a couple seconds time.

It was a terrifying juggling situation of total surprise, just a few seconds to respond, an unsecure door, and two little ones to decide how to gather out of harm’s way. But it worked.

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As I stated earlier, maybe I can say this with such confidence because I’ve been in a situation where it (threatening) worked for me.

Two men tried to break down my door, and I had no other exit. They kept body slamming it and one kept cussing “I’m gonna *** kill her”. (They weren’t after me, they had the wrong door)

I’ve never heard anyone angrier in my life. The door had no deadbolt or lock only a chain lock at the top. I had my two babies with me. I felt they were coming through any second.

I threatened them verbally with a .357. One of the men replied “Pull the trigger b*, pull the trigger.”

But despite his reply, they left while I was on a landline with security. So, I've no doubt a warning shot would have sent them running. And left none of us dead or even injured.

Had they kept coming? Yes, I would have shot them if I did not have time to gather my kids and lock all of us safely in the bathroom, until security arrived. The bathroom door was right by the door they were trying to break down, making it a hard decision in just a couple seconds time.

It was a terrifying juggling situation of total surprise, just a few seconds to respond, an unsecure door, and two little ones to decide how to gather out of harm’s way. But it worked.

Glad it worked-out OK.

With 2 little kids to protect, I might have unloaded the entire US Army at them(your gun), with a couple bullets left just in case.

Very few, if any, would ever blame anyone for taking extraordinary lethal measures to protect children.

Edited by pallidin

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This is nothing short of murder. He said he wanted him dead so he shot him in the face after the inital shot and him falling down the stairs, then shot the girl, and after she laughed at him, once again after an initial shot and her falling down the stairs, he then shot her multiple times in the chest.

Not saying one bit what these kids did was not reckless, disrespectful and dangerous, they certainly didn't need to die for it.

I agree with protecting yourself and your home, however our laws with guns are extremely strict in Australia and most of these sorts of cases are home owners usings knives or bats of they were in danger, so my thoughts may be different to those in the U.S. But this is so far beyond defense... As far as it seems, neither one even threw a punch or produced a weapon. That's murder in my book.

I agree there was distinct hatred and murder in what happened. I cannot imagine the circumstance where the girl, having already heard shots fired and knowing her cousin could have been shot, then being shot herself AND falling down the stairs would then turn and laugh at the person holding the gun like "this was all so much fun going on" - absolute rubbish.

Basically, he has made the lamest excuse to justify what he did to her after that first shot that any person who knows they can have no excuse could ever come up with.

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I know a lot of Aussies like to go off on our gun laws but before you do(just incase you do) realize that Americans agree with you. This isn't the law or the norm. It was too many crazy people in the same place at the wrong time.

Not at all mate, it's not my place. Not my country.

I was just referring to this particular case.

My point about where i live was, we don't need guns, and not allowed without a hell of alot of trouble to get one, alot less people die from gun crimes here, whether justified or not.

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I agree there was distinct hatred and murder in what happened. I cannot imagine the circumstance where the girl, having already heard shots fired and knowing her cousin could have been shot, then being shot herself AND falling down the stairs would then turn and laugh at the person holding the gun like "this was all so much fun going on" - absolute rubbish.

Basically, he has made the lamest excuse to justify what he did to her after that first shot that any person who knows they can have no excuse could ever come up with.

100% agree.

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I agree there was distinct hatred and murder in what happened. I cannot imagine the circumstance where the girl, having already heard shots fired and knowing her cousin could have been shot, then being shot herself AND falling down the stairs would then turn and laugh at the person holding the gun like "this was all so much fun going on" - absolute rubbish

Could she have been high on drugs though? :unsure2: That could explain the laughing...

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Ricochet off what? What are you shooting, a bb gun? And what do you live in. Ricochet is a very unlikely possibility in a home, that would be my guess anyway.

And I better not miss the the perp if I were worried about ricochet.

Ricochets are unlikely, but what is likely is that your round will travel through the wall and into other areas of the house. Which is exactly why hollow point rounds or shotguns are preferable for home defense.

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I wonder did the teenagers really rob his house or where they lured into his house

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"Fearful of other recent break-ins, he shot Schaeffel when he came into view.

When the teenager tumbled down the stars, Smith shot him in the face as he lay on the floor, looking up.

'I want him dead,' the complaint quoted Smith as telling an investigator.

He dragged the body into his workshop and then sat in the chair, the complaint said. When Kifer began walking down the stairs, he shot her and she fell down the stairs.

He tried to shoot her again with his rifle, but the gun jammed and Kifer laughed at him, the complaint noted.

'If you're trying to shoot somebody and they laugh at you, you go again,' Smith, 64, told investigators, according to a criminal complaint filed Monday.

He then shot her several times in the chest with a .22-caliber revolver, dragged her next to her cousin, and with as she gasped for air, fired a shot under her chin 'up into the cranium'."

How the **** is it justified to shoot someone in the face after you've already rendered them incapable of movement?

How is it justified to sit a someone next to their dead relative, shoot her so she gasps for air, then shoot her again so she is murdered?

No where does he say he asked what they wanted.

He shot them as soon as he saw them. No questions asked. They didn't harm him, they didn't steal anything.

We only have speculation they may have broken in other times, we have no proof at all they did except this one time.

There is no justification in how far he went.

I agree with everything you're saying except the bolded part.

In my book, simply breaking into someone's home is justification for deadly force. If you have such a wanton disregard for someone's personal property and their individual rights, you're criminally insane and I'm frankly not going to take the chance that you're simply there to steal my X-Box.

Edited by Rafterman
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I wonder did the teenagers really rob his house or where they lured into his house

I think they did rob the house before and they were there to rob it again but I think there's a good chance the guy set them up by making it look like he wasnt home. I guess you could call it luring. I suspect this was premeditated.

I know we're all speculating but I'm just trying to make sense out of a senseless scenario.

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Got a couple links that give some more information about this case...

http://seemydeath.co...l#axzz2DdU5Z6wb

http://minnesota.pub...rrorists-spies/

http://brainerddispa...other-break-ins

Not sure if it's really useful information, but I found it interesting. It struck me as odd that Mr. Smith was a retired security engineer for the state department and didn't have better home security.

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Ricochets are unlikely, but what is likely is that your round will travel through the wall and into other areas of the house. Which is exactly why hollow point rounds or shotguns are preferable for home defense.

I agree you've got to know what lies beyond when shooting any firearm. Firing a weapon is not a decision to take haphazardly. Hopefully you've thought this decision (to own a gun for self-defense) thoroughly. You are informed, and know your weapon, and you don't let it gather rust while waiting for that moment you need it.

Not sure how many households rely on shotguns as opposed to a handgun. There are pros/cons to both.

Edited by QuiteContrary

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I wonder did the teenagers really rob his house or where they lured into his house

This is a valid question. The old man does not come off as being a stable guy. It is possible that he was never robbed in the first place and lured in a couple innocents. Or invited them over.

It's too strange at this point to rule anything out.

But one thing is for sure, if his confession is true, he should be found guilty of murder.

Dipshts like this give gun owners a bad name.

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Just a hunch, but I think that when this gets to court Smith is going to be treated leniently ...... with sympathy.

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Could she have been high on drugs though? :unsure2: That could explain the laughing...

Maybe it was ironic laughter. Like if you are being beaten up and the thug beating you slips in a puddle and falls down. You just laugh. It is automatic.

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I think they did rob the house before and they were there to rob it again but I think there's a good chance the guy set them up by making it look like he wasnt home. I guess you could call it luring. I suspect this was premeditated.

I know we're all speculating but I'm just trying to make sense out of a senseless scenario.

Let's see, I'm at work, my wife is in class, and my kids are in daycare right now.

Am I trying to lure someone into breaking into my house? Should I have life-sized cutouts of us made and stand them in the windows?

Don't really see how you "lure" someone into breaking into your house.

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The first shot, that dropped the guy comming down the stairs was understandandable, as was the shot that dropped the girl initially. Repeatedly shooting her in the chest then purposfully blowing the back of her head off as well and executing the possibly already fatally wounded man was way too far.

I mean, you shot somone, they have fallen downa flight of stairs, if you can aim well enough to hit em, you can see well enough whether they are armed or not.

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