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RavenHawk

The Practical meaning of Socialism

102 posts in this topic

It seems that some people get their noses bent out of shape when I use the term Socialism/Socialist. I have spent many threads trying to explain how I use the term that even a five year old should be able to understand. My guess is that those people haven’t fully read everything I’ve said or are such an intellect that is far beyond what I have to say. The whole genre is a complex mess and I simplify it and I guess it is that simplification that blows people’s minds because it is so simplistic. The simplicity is beautiful and legitimately black and white. It’s not rocket science.

All you have is basically Oligarchy or Republic; nothing else. Oligarchy is the rule of one or of the few, or even by the many. Republic is the rule of Law, not subject to human interpretation (even though there are times when that is appropriate). Obamacare is a prime example of that. That’s why Pelosi said it had to be voted on before we could see what’s in it. And now, we are seeing what is in it because going from law to regulation requires human interpretation and that interpretation is nowhere near what the bill originally was. Personally, my deductible has gone up 400% and my out of pocket limit is so astronomical that it just doesn’t pay to be healthy. It is cheaper to take the penalty tax. Now I will refer back to Obamacare throughout this post, but because it is the best example of what is going wrong with this country, so you should just get use to it.

I use Socialism liberally (pardon the pun), when Oligarchy is the proper term. I find that Socialism is appropriate in today’s world. There are many flavors of Oligarchy, which include Socialism, Liberalism, Progressivism, Marxism, Fascism, Communism, Nazism, Totalitarianism, Monarchy, Kings, Princes, Potentates, Dictators, and even Democracy. The list is almost endless. We could sit here and discuss the differences in each and every one of them and you would be missing the point. For it isn’t what makes them different, it is what makes them all the same.

All these forms imply government infringement on the lives of the subjects to some degree or another. And the tendency of these is that over time, even the most benevolent forms will become more authoritarian. Socialist Democracy is the most benevolent and Totalitarianism is the most malevolent. And all Socialist Democracies will approach the Totalitarian as it takes more power from the people. Monarchies gave way to Socialist Democracies. Nothing really changed, just the source of power. People were still not free as the government had final say over the Rights of the People just as the King did.

You won’t find the word Democracy in the Constitution or even in the Declaration of Independence or Bill of Rights. Our Founding Fathers knew the pit falls of Democracies. The following are some of their thoughts:

“…democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property. And have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.”

James Madison Essay #10, Federalist Papers

“We are a Republican Government, real liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of democracy.”

Alexander Hamilton

“Democracy never lasts long. It soon exhausts and murders itself.”

Samuel Adams

Yes, Democracy plays an integral part in our form of government, but it is not the central principle of it. Even though “Socialism” by name was not known then, that is what the Founding Fathers were talking about. Democracy can and does morph into Socialism or Oligarchy or whatever you want to call it. A rose by any other name… Our Constitution was the only statement of purpose that didn’t grant Rights by the government to the people but guaranteed protection of Inalienable Rights of the people by the government. It is truly the only government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

President Obama has probably done the most (and he’s not finished) in usurping that guarantee and half of the people are blind and the other half are standing idly by as this guarantee is being stripped from us. And don’t say it isn’t, it is so blatantly obvious. How Obamacare became law is the archetype of how we lost our liberty. Our democracy has become the “Extremes of Democracy” as Hamilton said. How Obamacare was crammed down how throats and how the Electoral College has been manipulated is what Hamilton was meaning by extreme. This is how the Founding Fathers knew what Socialism was.

The following was offered by spartan max2 in another thread. He paraphrases a well known and highly feared (by our government) segment of one of our most precious documents:

"In a free country, governments derive their power from the consent of the governed. When the people have very clearly withdrawn their consent for a law, the discussion should be over. If the Feds refuse to accept that and continue to run roughshod over the people, at what point do we acknowledge that that is not freedom anymore? At what point should the people dissolve the political bands which have connected them with an increasingly tyrannical and oppressive federal government? And if people or states are not free to leave the United States as a last resort, can they really think of themselves as free?"

He never made it clear but he really didn’t have to as this clearly talks about Obamacare and Obama’s Socialist agenda. Obama is not Peter the Great and we are not the Russians being dragged, kicking and screaming into the modern age. Socialism is the dinosaur; for even if this Country falls to Socialism, the light of freedom will not be extinguished. It will just reemerge someplace else. Perhaps we are seeing it in of-all-places, Egypt?? Perhaps the Muslim Spring is the reform in Islam that is needed and that groups like the Muslim Brotherhood do not represent it? It is still way too early to be sure.

Oligarchy is the institution of slavery. It can be malevolent or benevolent. Malevolent is obviously Authoritarian, Totalitarianism, Police State, etc. The prime example is Communism and the state of East Germany before the fall of the Berlin Wall. People under this rule were definitely not free, but property of the state. “Batteries” for the machine. Benevolent in that it begins to nanny the people and give them everything they need. President Gerald Ford said (re-quoted by President Ronald Reagan): "A government big enough to give you everything you need, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have”. We see this in Europe. Europeans have become too complacent because they get a regular fix of dole. And you see what happens when austerity pops up into the equation.

But what happens when the tap shuts off? In our national parks, you’ll see signs that simply say “Please, don’t feed the animals.” So the obvious question should be “why?” If the animals get too use to taking food from the visitors then when times are hard, they won’t be able to fend for themselves. The animals will die off because they are waiting for food from humans. They’ve lost the ability to hunt and scavenge. And like animals, humans are creatures that do things for themselves. That is where people have dignity and self reliance. Without this, man does not thrive. He just exists, or becomes a kept person (the humans in “Wall-E”). This is enslavement, a gilded cage.

All governments are transient. They can never do their people justice. A government should never put itself into a position to take from the people. The government doesn’t give the people anything, it can only take. Our Constitution was established to prevent the government from taking from the people. And this government is in danger of going off the cliff with welfare and Entitlements that it cannot sustain.

I prefer to do things myself. Now, from time to time, I may need help and I would expect the government to be there to *help* out a little and I can then pay-it-forward later on, but what I do not need is cradle to grave care. This is not the kind of government the Founding Fathers gave us. And We the People need to insure that what they gave us stays. We need to gain control now before we can’t turn back. The Socialist Ruling Elite is doing its best to divide and conquer, but people must understand that the Constitution is not only for old, white, rich guys.

Like what Mary Matthews (Katharine Hepburn) in “State of the Union” said: “You politicians have stayed professionals only because the voters have remained amateurs.” The best solution to an out of control government is an educated and informed voter. If we just simply vote out every incumbent for the next few cycles, Socialism will die out and we will have our nation back. But if we don’t, then we will see riots in the streets like we have seen elsewhere. There is a balance in nature and as slavery/Socialism is on the move, Freedom is struggling to keep that balance.

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Here is all anyone needs to know about Socialism...it is a one way street that ends in Totalitarianism. ...and no, I didn't read more than the first sentence of your very wordy post. Why would I? All one needs to know is that Socialism leads to Totalitarianism.

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All one needs to know is that Socialism leads to Totalitarianism.

And I agree with you, but that isn’t good enough for some. So I’ve tried to cull everything I’d said to support that statement in one post. I was finding that I was repeating myself just too many times or others were saying that they just didn’t understand.

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Raven, I know you're already blue in the face about this subject but do you really expect any relief from your detractors? I've seen you make all these points before to no avail. It's just how it is but if it helps I think you make a lot of sense and see the deeper meanings and truths about where history has already been and where we seem likely to end up one day. Let them detract and ridicule, who cares? They ain't gonna change. I say keep making your points and stop letting them make you explain yourself. The ones who get you don't need explaining to and the ones who don't, well they never will.

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I'm tired of hearing Canada labelled as a socialist state by some of the news media in the USA...and recently in Canada too.

They label us as such simply because we have a universal health care system in place...as least that's how it seems.

Our taxes pay for healthcare. Big deal.

In Canada and the USA...

Taxes also pay for our military, emergency services such as fire, police, and ambulance.

They pay for road and highway maintenance and construction, garbage collection and disposal.

...and a raft load of other things. Some wasteful, some useful.

That's the way it is.

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i just noticed i was mentioned in this thread. I feel important :tsu: lol

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I'm tired of hearing Canada labelled as a socialist state by some of the news media in the USA...and recently in Canada too.

They label us as such simply because we have a universal health care system in place...as least that's how it seems.

Our taxes pay for healthcare. Big deal.

In Canada and the USA...

Taxes also pay for our military, emergency services such as fire, police, and ambulance.

They pay for road and highway maintenance and construction, garbage collection and disposal.

...and a raft load of other things. Some wasteful, some useful.

That's the way it is.

I like Canadian "socialism" I remember being on vacation years ago and seeing Health tax on everything just like you see state sales tax in the states. I thought, what a wonderful idea because everyone, including tourists, drug dealers or other criminals that normally get out of taxes pay their share to the Canadians' benefit! Here if your lucky enough to have a job you pay outrageous insurance premiums that don't cover things anyway then if you have a big bill they pay no more and you have a preexisting and can't get any care at all...unless you don't work and go on medicaid after selling everything you own. Besides job loss medical bills are the main reason for bad credit. I was thrilled when Obama tried to do something about it but even now the big insurances are figuring in loop holes not to pay in tricky ways. That's when it starts to make sense that some things should not be privatized such as insurance. If the Congress had the same pension and insurance as regular voters they would correct it but they just keep fighting with all the propaganda and taking corporate lobbyist money.

Edited by White Unicorn

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It's been pointed out ad naseum, you don't get to make up your own terms. :no:

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You're obviously quite young, RavenHawk

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Raven

It seems you have a rather romantic and naive view of the efficacy of the ballot box. "Voting them out" is pretty much a pipe dream.

The system is rigged in the first place, by the rotation of terms of congresscritters, but even more importantly is that We The Sheeple cannot agree on which congresscritters is good, and which is bad.

Socialism or Fascism, which do we have today?

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I assume the general consensus among those who "get their noses bent out of shape" is that those who go on screeds against the "socialism agenda" that is the cause of all their problems (right down to their insurance deductible!) have a somewhat paranoid delusional understanding of how government works and the policy agenda that's driving it.

This thread does nothing to change that impression.

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Just one point, because the OP has lost all sense of proportion...

Who drove through the Patriot Act - the very same act that deprives US Citizens of the right to demand Habeaus Corpus???? (Clue: GWB - Dubya and you all just rolled over in ecstacy to accept it :w00t: - idiots)

You now have fewer "rights" than ANY EU Nation..."There's one born every minute"

Edited by keithisco

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And I agree with you, but that isn't good enough for some. So I've tried to cull everything I'd said to support that statement in one post. I was finding that I was repeating myself just too many times or others were saying that they just didn't understand.

In Bold: so you basically left out any contrary argument to your own to "prove" your point... naive on this Forum - you will be found out!!

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I'm tired of hearing Canada labelled as a socialist state by some of the news media in the USA...and recently in Canada too.

They label us as such simply because we have a universal health care system in place...as least that's how it seems.

Our taxes pay for healthcare. Big deal.

In Canada and the USA...

Taxes also pay for our military, emergency services such as fire, police, and ambulance.

They pay for road and highway maintenance and construction, garbage collection and disposal.

...and a raft load of other things. Some wasteful, some useful.

That's the way it is.

Socialism is the direction that those in charge desire us to go, as long as it only applies to the poorest 99%. That's why you in Canada are hearing you are socialists on your own broadcasts. The very young take anything the talking picture box tells them as the unconditional truth. The talking picture box is labeling you as socialists because the young people will grow up believing it making the transition easier as they apply it. Very soon you will see many pro socialists progams being touted via government backed funding on American television too. Don't fight it, just go down to the capital , ask for your hammer and sickle and start working for the benefit of those who are too lazy and too stupid to do anything for themselves. And don't forget to smile and sy please and thank you. Also, as you get older don't be a burden on the healthcare system that's there for the majority of poeple and kill yourself if you start to to feel like you can work no longer. It's the new American way! :clap:

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Raven, I know you're already blue in the face about this subject but do you really expect any relief from your detractors? I've seen you make all these points before to no avail. It's just how it is but if it helps I think you make a lot of sense and see the deeper meanings and truths about where history has already been and where we seem likely to end up one day. Let them detract and ridicule, who cares? They ain't gonna change. I say keep making your points and stop letting them make you explain yourself. The ones who get you don't need explaining to and the ones who don't, well they never will.

I admit that I get frustrated with the stupidity of others but I really don’t do it for them. It’s like the old saying that the difference between stupidity and ignorance is that ignorance can be fixed. For sure, they are the impetus for me to do this, I do this for myself. To collect and focus my thoughts into something more coherent than just a passing comment in one post or another. I was watching some program last night on the Science Channel and it stated that without the dinosaur, Man wouldn’t be here today. So I should be thankful for my detractors. Because without them, my seeking of deeper meanings and truths would not be as strong. You’re right in that they ain’t gonna change and we’ve already seen that with their comments here.

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I'm tired of hearing Canada labelled as a socialist state by some of the news media in the USA...and recently in Canada too.

They label us as such simply because we have a universal health care system in place...as least that's how it seems.

Our taxes pay for healthcare. Big deal.

In Canada and the USA...

Taxes also pay for our military, emergency services such as fire, police, and ambulance.

They pay for road and highway maintenance and construction, garbage collection and disposal.

...and a raft load of other things. Some wasteful, some useful.

That's the way it is.

Well in terms of geo-political terms we are somewhat aligned as a socialist democracy. Just like all of Europe and Oceania. Of course where the rub comes from is people like Raven who just don't understand what socialism means in a Western political context. They hear socialism and they automatically think Soviet Union and become terrified. Now of course the socialism that they're so scared of is practiced in countries that are every year ranked as the best places in the world to live in. That people living in those countries love their nations and are just as free as Americans. But sadly little things like facts and reality don't make a dent in their worldview. After all they actually think Obama is a socialist. Best you can do is shake your head and laugh.

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Nothing is forever...

"Republics decline into democracies and democracies degenerate into despotism." (Aristotle)

"Dictatorship naturally arises out of democracy, and the most aggravated form of tyranny and slavery out of the most extreme liberty." (Plato)

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Socialism is the direction that those in charge desire us to go, as long as it only applies to the poorest 99%. That's why you in Canada are hearing you are socialists on your own broadcasts. The very young take anything the talking picture box tells them as the unconditional truth. The talking picture box is labeling you as socialists because the young people will grow up believing it making the transition easier as they apply it. Very soon you will see many pro socialists progams being touted via government backed funding on American television too. Don't fight it, just go down to the capital , ask for your hammer and sickle and start working for the benefit of those who are too lazy and too stupid to do anything for themselves. And don't forget to smile and sy please and thank you. Also, as you get older don't be a burden on the healthcare system that's there for the majority of poeple and kill yourself if you start to to feel like you can work no longer. It's the new American way! :clap:

Very true.

For the average worker in our province of Canada, Ontario...

If you add up the Federal and Provincial income tax, the sales tax of 13% (which you are paying for out of your already taxed income), municipal property tax, and various huge point of purchases taxes such as gasoline, environmental, tire, and new car purchases...

More than 50 cents of each dollar earned goes towards tax.

*searches for hammer and sickle*

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Very true.

For the average worker in our province of Canada, Ontario...

If you add up the Federal and Provincial income tax, the sales tax of 13% (which you are paying for out of your already taxed income), municipal property tax, and various huge point of purchases taxes such as gasoline, environmental, tire, and new car purchases...

More than 50 cents of each dollar earned goes towards tax.

*searches for hammer and sickle*

I roller coastered in my life from poor, to very well to do, to pretty poor after medical bills and deaths in the family, spouse job loss and I now make 1/3 less and am the sole provider after a company merger. My net is 57% that is before state sales tax real estate, piggy back city taxes or utilities gasoline or food , car & property insurance etc. You can't get help with heating etc because you still gross too much even though net is way below the poverty level. Your family can get preventative care now without deductible but if you have preexisting, or need a treatment it's considered diagnostic and insurance pays 50-60% after you pay $5000 deductible. Next year will be better with a different insurance since it's a high deductible of only 2,500 per person and covers 100% remainder if its an approved treatment. I'm so glad they got rid of the insurance cap. Wish it would have came sooner before I wrote out over a million dollars in checks to pay bills for my family that insurance wouldn't cover and spouse with no full time job for 8 years!

But if you don't work or was born into poverty, you get housing, food allowance nd free medical care and a monthly check. The working boomers can't collect their private pensions or social security until 65-67 or until they have been totally disabled for a year and the Republicans want to cut those benefits and unemployment instead of cutting the loopholes in tax laws! System is all messed up, I've seen it from all sides. It can be fixed in many ways to be good for ALL the people but nothing gets done because of politics and the perpetual election campaigns of power plays.

After the GW Bush era, I wish I was a Canadian instead, and I really like Ontario!

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Just one point, because the OP has lost all sense of proportion...

Who drove through the Patriot Act - the very same act that deprives US Citizens of the right to demand Habeaus Corpus???? (Clue: GWB - Dubya and you all just rolled over in ecstacy to accept it :w00t: - idiots)

You now have fewer "rights" than ANY EU Nation..."There's one born every minute"

And right there folks is the problem. Whenever you try to point out the woes of socialism you are labeled a democrat-hating dog kicker. Now why is that? Maybe because that's the party leading us FORWARD down this path. Now yes the last president did much more than just drive through the Patriot Act to take away our rights but our country has been heading down this hill for many years. At this point I don't see much difference between either party when it comes to socialist agenda.

In other words people we have lost the country to the ruling elite and we have become what the founding fathers predicted we would. Damn they were smart. I just wish more people would have listened to them.

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In other words people we have lost the country to the ruling elite and we have become what the founding fathers predicted we would. Damn they were smart. I just wish more people would have listened to them.

So true,... all forms of government go through cycles when you look at history. The problem seems to be when the people see a light at the end of the tunnel they don't realize it may really be a train! It's been happening too long and the real question is how do we get the system back on the right track and stay there!

Founding fathers called it the grand experiment, its up to us to do what we can do to help bring about a solution to the failing to honor the freedom and justice for all dream.

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I'm tired of hearing Canada labelled as a socialist state by some of the news media in the USA...and recently in Canada too.

It’s not meant as an insult. For what it’s worth, the US is but a heartbeat away from being Socialist itself. But why are you tired of hearing it when places like France and Italy are proud of it? Maybe the truth is uncomfortable?

They label us as such simply because we have a universal health care system in place...as least that's how it seems.

That’s not exactly true. Universal Healthcare is but the latest and ultimate insult. UH forces the people to be dependent on the government. It opens the door for government to infringe on the most basic of human Rights. It can dictate that you do something with your own body or it can withhold something from you. That is completely counter to what the American Constitution was established for. That is enslavement. Since you are Canadian, you are not bound to any such covenant.

Our taxes pay for healthcare. Big deal.

If you try looking beyond the bread and circuses, it is a big deal. The government should not be in the Entitlement business for the very reasons I had stated. It is not the place of the government to oversee the lives of the people. And when it gets into that business, it enslaves them.

In Canada and the USA...

Taxes also pay for our military, emergency services such as fire, police, and ambulance.

They pay for road and highway maintenance and construction, garbage collection and disposal.

...and a raft load of other things. Some wasteful, some useful.

That's the way it is.

This is one of the most dangerous assumptions people make. Trying to combine things like healthcare with infrastructure and defense. These are not the same class of things. Regulating humans is robbing them of their life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Again, you are not bound by that but all humans have inalienable Rights, of which only the US Constitution guarantees no government infringement of (but even that is endanger of going by the way side). The Patriot Act is a far less dangerous to that than Obamacare. The US government is charged with (as should all governments) “Providing for the Common Defense” and “Promoting the General Welfare”. General Welfare does not mean Entitlements, does not mean welfare, does not mean healthcare. It means building and maintaining infrastructure (that’s roads, public works and emergency and other services that protect the infrastructure) so that the people can once again practice life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness by using these things to increase their wealth through commerce. And from their wealth can take care of their own health needs.

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i just noticed i was mentioned in this thread. I feel important :tsu: lol

I had to recognize a good thought … :yes:

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Here if your lucky enough to have a job you pay outrageous insurance premiums that don't cover things anyway then if you have a big bill they pay no more and you have a preexisting and can't get any care at all...unless you don't work and go on medicaid after selling everything you own.

Let me tell you how lucky we are now under Obamacare. We try to eat and live a healthy lifestyle, take preventative and maintenance steps. But Western, clinical medicine is too ignorant to understand that alternative and Eastern medicine is the other half of “whole health” and for the most part are not considered “preventative medicine” in Obamacare. Yet many doctors are beginning to understand the importance of these other forms. Obamacare has no comprehension of these because they are not clinically quantitative. Auto Immune diseases are on the increase and Obamacare is incapable of dealing with it. You throw in things like GMOs and obesity and it doesn’t take much to understand the Perfect Storm we are heading into.

I would go see my doctor every 6mons to check my cholesterol etc., which was a $30 co-pay and $50 for lab work. Now, what they do call preventative care under obamacare like annual physicals, etc are 100% covered however, lab work is now $1000. I can’t afford that. And what good is going to the doctor without lab work for him to examine? What kind of preventative medicine is that? Why go at all and waste both our times?

Yes, my premium is down a little but my deductible has gone up 400% and my out of pocket limit has skyrocketed from $2,500 to $12,000 for me and my wife. Under the old insurance she was able to get brand drugs cheaper because there was no generic equivalent. Now she can’t. And the other drugs she takes are not approved by the FDA and so are not covered. By the time we are eligible for any benefits, it’ll be Nov or Dec of the year and then only at 65%. That is rationing! Now tell me how great that is for me?!

Besides job loss medical bills are the main reason for bad credit.

We won’t have to get seriously sick before being endanger of losing our home. Is that what Obama wants? Instead of creating a building boom of new homes, just take my home and give it to a Taker?

I was thrilled when Obama tried to do something about it but even now the big insurances are figuring in loop holes not to pay in tricky ways.

Yeah, you must have had that tingle up your leg. This is where Socialism does not understand the free market. The purpose of insurance companies is to make money, not provide healthcare. One should be harnessing the “Invisible Hand” instead of regulating it. If the consumer was more educated and competition was open across state lines then the market would provide better care. But Socialists don’t understand that. But it’s also not just the insurance companies. All businesses are looking for ways of not paying which includes dropping their workforce to under 50 and/or reducing worker’s hours to under 30 hours. The new norm will be that everyone will have at least two part time jobs and no healthcare. Then there will be rationing that will occur from Obamacare, like it has already done with my wife’s care.

That's when it starts to make sense that some things should not be privatized such as insurance.

Obamacare is the proof that everything should be privatized and get government out of things entirely!

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It's been pointed out ad naseum, you don't get to make up your own terms. :no:

Actually I do get to make up my own terms. I define it very clearly. You are just too dense to understand how the definition I go by is well within the parameters of the usage of the word. You are unwilling and incapable of understanding. That’s fine by me because that is, in part, what I’m establishing here.

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