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iforgot

Where do athiests think we came from?

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Its not that difficult.

All we have to do is look at ourselves. We are obviously concious, and we are on the brink of understanding genes, technology, and evolution enough to be able to consciously evolve. Somone already mentioned the universe is evolving. It has to. The only things that can exist are things that have the ability to perpetuate its existsance into to future. Life obviously is very good at this, and concious sentient life even better. Life is also exponential in nature. We are approaching the singularity in which life and technology will shift into extremely high gear.

Now aply that same principal to evolving universes. In an infinity of existence the substructure of reality must have evolved conciousness or at least extremely likely to. The kicker is that it must have done it an infinity ago which means its always been here continually evolving. Our universe is part of this ongoing process of life and evolution. We are the innerworkings of the great spirit.

I asked the ocean ( a representation of primordial conciousness in my visions) during an OBE, how it was created. It said ( more of a telepathic understanding rather than language) that it dosnt remember.

With all that said time in science is simply the propagation of signals always creating more entropy. It has nothing to do with sequence or causality. Causality time absolutely did not start with the big bang. There were things going on prior to that, we just may not understand them or be able to quantify it the way we observe this universe behaving. This notion of no time is silly.

The same thing can be said about the vacuum. there is not a shred of evidence or any reason to think that the vaccume was produced during the BB. Certainly the SPACE between things because everything was supposedly condensed, but not the vaccum itself.

When you take a hard critical look at the BB theories, I'm not sure why anyone thinks that The vaccume of SPACE and causality TIME was produced during the expansion.

Over the years I have become more and more sceptical of the theory any way. If it is simply the nature of the vaccume to push things a way possibly the effect of virtual particles on an intergalactic level like an intergalactic exponential cassneir affect coupled with the occasional quantum tunneling of a virtual particle building up more than average densities of energy in clumps, the. We would make the the observations that we have. I'm not saying this is what is happening, but there could be some other circumstances that give us the types of observations we have.

Edited by Seeker79
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No he's not.

your answers is void as you cant define the undefinable lol

walking my dogs now, will be interesting to see whats happened when i get back.

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I'm not being difficult and perhaps it is a bit OT, but "It's clear that our universe wasn't always in existence." I'd love some info about why this is clear.

I was always of like mind with Stephen Hawking... it has no beginning and end. It just is.

Well, there is only evidence of the big bang and expansion.

The laws of our physical reality violate the that logic anyways. Because everything needs a cause, the universe is no exception!

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Probably, personally I have no theory about where the universe came from. It's like a locked room mystery where you can only use information to solve the mystery from inside that room, no outside knowledge, nothing, just everything in that room, no assumptions based on outside info either.

Got it now :tu:

We do have more info on the universe than we do on god, and the info we have about the universe is still very little, as opposed to the knowledge about god, which we have nothing.

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Well, there is only evidence of the big bang and expansion.

The laws of our physical reality violate the that logic anyways. Because everything needs a cause, the universe is no exception!

Why does every thing need a cause? thats man thinking!

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Why does every thing need a cause? thats man thinking!

It's mans observation.

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Got it now :tu:

We do have more info on the universe than we do on god, and the info we have about the universe is still very little, as opposed to the knowledge about god, which we have nothing.

My first two posts were jokes/theories I've heard before. Maybe in the future we create the past. One of those grandfather paradox answers I know, but it's just a theory, not even my own.

In my opinion, we may never have solid evidence (like holding a rock and going 'it's a rock!') of how, when or even why the universe began, but we may get some good clues, as you said we already have some clues to put in my handy dandy notebook.

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Its not that difficult.

It seems to be difficult to those who spend time researching, experimenting and developing theories.

All we have to do is look at ourselves. We are obviously concious, and we are on the brink of understanding genes, technology, and evolution enough to be able to consciously evolve. Somone already mentioned the universe is evolving. It has to. The only things that can exist are things that have the ability to perpetuate its existsance into to future. Life obviously is very good at this, and concious sentient life even better. Life is also exponential in nature. We are approaching the singularity in which life and technology will shift into extremely high gear.

Except when time completely ceases to exist, and we are all "frozen"...

I asked the ocean ( a representation of primordial conciousness in my visions) during an OBE, how it was created. It said ( more of a telepathic understanding rather than language) that it dosnt remember.

What else have you learned from the ocean in these hallucinations?

With all that said time in science is simply the propagation of signals always creating more entropy. It has nothing to do with sequence or causality. Causality time absolutely did not start with the big bang. There were things going on prior to that, we just may not understand them or be able to quantify it the way we observe this universe behaving. This notion of no time is silly.

This notion of "no time" is not silly at all, and has been the topic of discussion amongst experts for many, many years. I would like to see you use your discussion with the ocean as evidence for reinforcement of your delusional theories against a group of highly educated individuals who dedicate their time to answering these questions, and see how seriously they take you.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=no-evidence-of-time-before-big

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The same thing can be said about the vacuum. there is not a shred of evidence or any reason to think that the vaccume was produced during the BB. Certainly the SPACE between things because everything was supposedly condensed, but not the vaccum itself.

When you take a hard critical look at the BB theories, I'm not sure why anyone thinks that The vaccume of SPACE and causality TIME was produced during the expansion.

It seems like maybe you would be more qualified to have started this thread than me! I think we have similar opinions.

All we have to do is look at ourselves. We are obviously concious, and we are on the brink of understanding genes, technology, and evolution enough to be able to consciously evolve. Somone already mentioned the universe is evolving. It has to. The only things that can exist are things that have the ability to perpetuate its existsance into to future. Life obviously is very good at this, and concious sentient life even better. Life is also exponential in nature. We are approaching the singularity in which life and technology will shift into extremely high gear.

Yes! Good! Great! I totally agree with this part.

The origin of consciousness, in my opinion, stemmed from the primordial consciousness super-computer like being (great description, I know!). It continues to evolve much like we do, expanding into different opportunities, eliminating the losers and choosing the winners (much like evolution here) in search for lower entropy (greater ability to do work. ex: oil has a much lower entropy than stone). This is why it would run simulations of many realities at the same time: to evolve consciousness to a lower entropy (which ultimately means more loving, but that's a different subject). It helps to think of our reality is some VR training lab for consciousness.

Now aply that same principal to evolving universes. In an infinity of existence the substructure of reality must have evolved conciousness or at least extremely likely to. The kicker is that it must have done it an infinity ago which means its always been here continually evolving. Our universe is part of this ongoing process of life and evolution. We are the innerworkings of the great spirit.

I think we're on the same page. I also believe that The Big Computer also evolved time (long before our reality ever existed) to increase it's potential for organization. Therefore time is an essential tool for evolving into lower entropy states.

Why does every thing need a cause? thats man thinking!

The same reason why books aren't flying off of my desk right now ;)

You're right, it is man thinking. Logical man thinking!

What else have you learned from the ocean in these hallucinations?

You haven't had any out-of-body experiences have you??

Edited by iforgot

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It's mans observation.

SOME mens observation.

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SOME mens observation.

You aren't making a load of sense right now...

Maybe you should throw in some examples of things known to happen without cause?

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You haven't had any out-of-body experiences have you??

Yes, I have... however, I believe that the mind is extremely powerful, and can fool you into believing things that are not actually occurring (as in, you actually have a soul and it is ACTUALLY leaving your body and visiting places in the world).

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Yes, I have... however, I believe that the mind is extremely powerful, and can fool you into believing things that are not actually occurring (as in, you actually have a soul and it is ACTUALLY leaving your body and visiting places in the world).

Oh! Well that's good :)

What would cause these hallucinations? If our mind is that powerful and easily fooled, then how do we know what we think is 'physical' really isn't just a virtual reality?

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You aren't making a load of sense right now...

Maybe you should throw in some examples of things known to happen without cause?

It is mans perception that there has to be a cause behind everything, its the only way for mans inquisitive mind to understand it.

Other animals do not think like we do, they just do and are.

I do believe most things happen for a reason, but thats because life follows the rules of nature, it is the rules of man which are changing things here.

I do not believe that the cause is because of some godly ways.

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Oh! Well that's good :)

What would cause these hallucinations? If our mind is that powerful and easily fooled, then how do we know what we think is 'physical' really isn't just a virtual reality?

We don't. That's just the beauty of it all.

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We don't. That's just the beauty of it all.

I love your open minded skepticism :)

Based on what I've experienced, I can say that a virtual reality would make more sense to me than any other theory I've read. I don't believe in an egotistical 'God', or "we just always were", just personal experiences and Tom Campbell's theory for me. But that's just what I think.

It is mans perception that there has to be a cause behind everything, its the only way for mans inquisitive mind to understand it.

Other animals do not think like we do, they just do and are.

I do believe most things happen for a reason, but thats because life follows the rules of nature, it is the rules of man which are changing things here.

I do not believe that the cause is because of some godly ways.

I'm talking about physics. The laws of physics dictate a cause for an effect to happen. Right??

Edited by iforgot

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Both of these ideas clearly violate the cause and effect relationship that we know must exist in physical reality. They do not explain the paranormal or mystical events at all. precognitive dreaming and Out-of-body experiences are all pretty common (for me at least), so in my opinion, a good theory of everything would explain that too. Or in the very least, give a logical reason for them to happen!

Stay with me here, we are on a paranormal-centered discussion board after all.

:santa: No problem!

Good point here and I will reply beginning with "Ah Ha!"

This is where the Universe is a composite of two universes, the objective universe (that which abides by the Laws of Physics) and the subjective universe (that which does not).

The Self, the Mind, Higher Self, Holy Guardian Angel, etc. exists outside of the objecive universe (OU) and without it! When we dream or imagine we have the ability the create things, situations and events that physics no longer apply.

Some will write this off simply as a byproduct of the brain, but we can ALL feel there is something much more to US than just the physical. An Isolate Intelligence removed from the OU . . . it is our subjective universe (SU)!

This SU does not function like its brother the OU Meme, it unfolds itself for each of us by way of the divine, by our Higher Self, the Monad and Essence of Self.

Through the OU we assign meaning to our SU, the OU exists only for our SU to know itself and other SU's.

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I love your open minded skepticism :)

Based on what I've experienced, I can say that a virtual reality would make more sense to me than any other theory I've read. I don't believe in an egotistical 'God', or "we just always were", just personal experiences and Tom Campbell's theory for me. But that's just what I think.

Then who is controlling us through virtual reality?.. And how do we know who is not controlling them, controlling us? Ad infinitum...

I have thought about many things in my past... such as, "What if I am really in a coma, and experiencing an extremely vivid hallucination of what my life was like, and I am really going to wake up in the future?". -_-

Edited by Alienated Being

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I love your open minded skepticism :)

Based on what I've experienced, I can say that a virtual reality would make more sense to me than any other theory I've read. I don't believe in an egotistical 'God', or "we just always were", just personal experiences and Tom Campbell's theory for me. But that's just what I think.

"we just always were" NOT. We are just another species which happens in this time to be able to live and evolve on this planet under its current conditions, one little tilt and we are "was".

Edited by freetoroam

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:santa: No problem!

Good point here and I will reply beginning with "Ah Ha!"

This is where the Universe is a composite of two universes, the objective universe (that which abides by the Laws of Physics) and the subjective universe (that which does not).

The Self, the Mind, Higher Self, Holy Guardian Angel, etc. exists outside of the objecive universe (OU) and without it! When we dream or imagine we have the ability the create things, situations and events that physics no longer apply.

Some will write this off simply as a byproduct of the brain, but we can ALL feel there is something much more to US than just the physical. An Isolate Intelligence removed from the OU . . . it is our subjective universe (SU)!

This SU does not function like its brother the OU Meme, it unfolds itself for each of us by way of the divine, by our Higher Self, the Monad and Essence of Self.

Through the OU we assign meaning to our SU, the OU exists only for our SU to know itself and other SU's.

Haha! Good opener

We really don't think that differently then. I, personally, subscribe to the VR theory but our two ways of thinking are pretty similar (physical reality as well as non-physical reality).

Just as thoughts can't be measured, I think you're right about what you said on dreams. The reasoning behind what I think is complicated and I don't want to start with that :D

Then who is controlling us through virtual reality?.. And how do we know who is not controlling them, controlling us? Ad infinitum...

Who said control?

I think of it more as an experiment where the conditions of consciousness were met, and so consciousness evolved. Wondering about what created the creator is beyond comprehension much like intestinal bacteria thinking about the existence of the sun; they will never know.

Edited by iforgot

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If the universe started with nothing, how do you get something from nothing? There must of been something out there from the very beginning, whatever the beginning really was.

Maybe we are all just living in a giant bubble and we are the pets of some alien race.

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Alienated Being i would really like to hear about your OBE if your willing to share it

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If the universe started with nothing, how do you get something from nothing? There must of been something out there from the very beginning, whatever the beginning really was.

Maybe we are all just living in a giant bubble and we are the pets of some alien race.

Why must there have been something? Nothing as in a vacuum, nothing as in the Egyptian Waters of Nun, nothing as in before Plato's First Forms, nothing as in before time, energy, matter and the Laws of Physics . . . just millions of Isolate Intelligences waiting to separate from their Monad and devolve downward into a Physic Realm!

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It seems to be difficult to those who spend time researching, experimenting and developing theories.

Except when time completely ceases to exist, and we are all "frozen"...

What else have you learned from the ocean in these hallucinations?

This notion of "no time" is not silly at all, and has been the topic of discussion amongst experts for many, many years. I would like to see you use your discussion with the ocean as evidence for reinforcement of your delusional theories against a group of highly educated individuals who dedicate their time to answering these questions, and see how seriously they take you.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=no-evidence-of-time-before-big

Only difficult to proove a particular theory.

Nothing freezes. No matter what there are still quantum fluctuations. A quantum fluctuation is a candidate for what started the singularity in the first place.

If hawking is right then singularities will evenchually evaporate away.... This is CHANGE. Quite obviously this silly notion of time Stopping is a myth. If the LHC manages to produce a mini black hole and they suspect it will, this will be prooven.

Many things but mostly personal

I would never bring internal revelation to a talk like that other than just an experience.

And yes I have had in depth conversations with highly educated individuals including PHDs on the subject, have you? They are not nearly as closed minded as you are. In fact they would tear your fundamentalist and charming attitude apart.

I also do another thing.... It's called reading. Many prominent scientists reject the idea of true time and space being created with the expansion. My knowledge of the subject is not my own... I'm not a scientist. I simply read.

You are a silly man AB. Your link is just a rebuttel against one of penroses models. Quit obviously change happens ( time), there would have to be a hell of a smokeing gun of evidence to suggest that change never occurred prior to the expansion. In fact what changed to allow change to occur ? Obviously there was the potential for change... This is causality/proper ----whatever--- time. The time that your head is stuck on is simply the propigation of signals and the march of entropy which does "freeze" inside of a singularity. This in no way suggests that it can't change. Otherwise why would hawking even propose that a singularity can evaporate.

realativity is simply a result of the conductivity of space. The speed of light limit creates what we see in realativity. It's just a function of how fast internal signaling ( ticks) can happen.

I suggest you spend more time actually reading books or Mabey workshops or talks with actual scientists.

You have a very nieve a sublevel understanding of what scientists are saying.

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SOME mens observation.

The only things that may apear to not have a cause are the things we don't fully understand. I'm no determinist... Not by a stretch, but every observation every man has made seems to have a cause until we get to the horizon of our capabilities to observe.

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