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markdohle

NDE Analysis of Atheists

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NDE Analysis of Atheists

http://near-death.co...atheists01.html

a_j_ayer.jpgAtheists have deathbed experiences and near-death experiences just like everyone else does. The philosophy of Positivism, founded by the famous atheist named A. J. Ayer, is the philosophy that anything not verifiable by the senses is nonsense. Because NDEs mark the end of the senses, Positivists believe the survival of the senses after death is nonsense. But this philosophy has been challenged by its founder A. J. Ayer himself. Later in life, Ayer had a NDE where he saw a red light. Ayer's NDE made him a changed man: "My recent experiences, have slightly weakened my conviction that my genuine death ... will be the end of me, though I continue to hope that it will be." (Ayer, 1988 a, (Read more about it from an article in the National Post and an article below by Gerry Lougrhan:

Can there be life after life? Ask the atheist!

by Gerry Lougrhan, Letter_From_London, March 18, 2001

When the famous English novelist, Somerset Maugham, was expiring in France, aged 91, he summoned the world-class atheist, A.J. Ayer, like a priest to his deathbed, to reassure him that there was no afterlife. Professor Ayer duly delivered the words of consolation Maugham longed to hear.

But when Ayer himself was dying two decades later, he wasn't so sure. Having choked on a piece of smoked salmon that stopped his heart for at least four minutes, the famed philosopher saw, and heard things he had spent a lifetime denying.

On his return from he knew not where, Ayer wrote a chagrined but enigmatic account of what has become known in Britain and beyond as Near Death Experience.

Millions of people say they have had an NDE, as it is now commonly known, while many more are thought to have had the experience but are too embarrassed to talk about it. A Gallup poll in the United States indicated 8-12 million people (approximately the population of New York City) claimed experience of life beyond the grave; in Britain, a Mori poll showed seven people out of 10 believed NDEs happened and constituted evidence of an afterlife.

To continue: http://near-death.co...atheists01.html

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Not to mention the millions if not more that had NDEs, but actually died. ;) what do you think another twelve million or potentially billions upon billions?

Edited by Seeker79

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Not to mention the millions if not more that had NDEs, but actually died. ;) what do you think another twelve million or potentially billions upon billions?

Or the majority who don't experience NDEs, you nor the OP want to hear about them.
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It is also believed dimethyltryptamine could be released from the pineal gland during death which could explain NDEs as it is a psychadelic.

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what has near death experience got to do with religion? I know of people who have had NDE, but if someone is an atheist it could quite mean that they will see a religious side to this....remember that an atheist is NOT necessarily someone who does not believe in god. If he had been an agnostic, then he would have seen this on a complete different light.

Edited by freetoroam

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Or the majority who don't experience NDEs, you nor the OP want to hear about them.

I don't think the NDE proves anything about the afterlife, though it can point to it. On one level it is true that I don't know what happens after death. Also most if not all people dream every night, many never remember their dreams at all, so that is not a valid indicator of how many actually had one.

Peace

mark

what has near death experience got to do with religion? I know of people who have had NDE, but if someone is an atheist it could quite mean that they will see a religious side to this....remember that an atheist is NOT necessarily someone who does not believe in god. If he had been an agnostic, then he would have seen this on a complete different light.

Hmmm LOl, better look up what atheist means my friend.

peace

mark

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It is also believed dimethyltryptamine could be released from the pineal gland during death which could explain NDEs as it is a psychadelic.

These have all been dealt with, the reasons why it happens and found wanting. The fact that the studies of this kind of thing continues to spread is because they can pinpoint why it happens. It just does.

peace

mark

Not to mention the millions if not more that had NDEs, but actually died. ;) what do you think another twelve million or potentially billions upon billions?

Perhaps they just went through the tunnel, entered the light, or returned as a horse on a farm in Georgia LOL.

peace

mark

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I don't think the NDE proves anything about the afterlife, though it can point to it. On one level it is true that I don't know what happens after death. Also most if not all people dream every night, many never remember their dreams at all, so that is not a valid indicator of how many actually had one.

Peace

mark

Hmmm LOl, better look up what atheist means my friend.

peace

mark

I have, years ago, it does not mean :do not believe in god. it can also mean does not believe in your god, eg: the Romans would have seen jesus as an atheist as he did not believe in their gods. An atheist can believe in a god, but not the same as yours.

There is also an ignostic and an agnostic, maybe people are getting this confused with them?

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I have, years ago, it does not mean :do not believe in god. it can also mean does not believe in your god, eg: the Romans would have seen jesus as an atheist as he did not believe in their gods. An atheist can believe in a god, but not the same as yours.

There is also an ignostic and an agnostic, maybe people are getting this confused with them?

Yeah as I sent send, I thought of that.....you got me, one point for you.....LOL

peace

mark

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Or the majority who don't experience NDEs, you nor the OP want to hear about them.

How do you know that if they did have them but just can't remember?

Edited by Seeker79

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How do you know that if they did have them but just can't remember?

lol. With this reasoning you could argue in favor of virtually anything.

What if you saw bigfoot/had sex with an alien/ate babies, and you just don't remember it? Please..

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These have all been dealt with, the reasons why it happens and found wanting. The fact that the studies of this kind of thing continues to spread is because they can pinpoint why it happens. It just does.

peace

mark

As you can imagine, this sort of thing is hard to completely prove (dimethyltryptamine being produced in our pineal glands and released while we sleep/while we die). It has not been dealt with however. People under the effects of this while taking it externally report similar experiences to the NDEs. It is also believed to be the reason why we dream as well.

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lol. With this reasoning you could argue in favor of virtually anything.

What if you saw bigfoot/had sex with an alien/ate babies, and you just don't remember it? Please..

But we are not talking about sightings... We are quite obviously altered states of conciousness, and we know for a fact many people who experience trauma don't even remember the events leading up to the event that got them there, and these are physical events.

Furthermore, the skeptic assertion that it's a hullicinatiion or dream of some sort should should leave widely open that there are many events that cannot be remembered because we know for a fact that people duo not remember most dreams and people influenced by high dosses of psychedelics do not remember all of their altered state experiences. Why assume it would be any different with NDEs.

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But we are not talking about sightings... We are quite obviously altered states of conciousness, and we know for a fact many people who experience trauma don't even remember the events leading up to the event that got them there, and these are physical events.

Furthermore, the skeptic assertion that it's a hullicinatiion or dream of some sort should should leave widely open that there are many events that cannot be remembered because we know for a fact that people duo not remember most dreams and people influenced by high dosses of psychedelics do not remember all of their altered state experiences. Why assume it would be any different with NDEs.

NDEs are implied to be independent from the biological brain, at least that is what believers have me believe.

If you are unaware, how can you call it an experience?

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NDEs are implied to be independent from the biological brain, at least that is what believers have me believe.

If you are unaware, how can you call it an experience?

Yes they are, but to have a memory of it there must be an interaction with the brain. There is no way around this. If NDEs happen outside of the body then there must be a douwnload of the info to the brain... We are now talking about the samething in two threads.

Obviously you were not unaware if haveing an NDE. Not remembering is not the samething as not aware. People do not remember events leading up to trauma, that dies nit mean they were unaware at the time. The question is if you need the brain to be aware or not.

Edited by Seeker79

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Yes they are, but to have a memory of it there must be an interaction with the brain. There is no way around this. If NDEs happen outside of the body then there must be a douwnload of the info to the brain... We are now talking about the samething in two threads.

Consciousness survives death but memory doesn't?
Obviously you were not unaware if haveing an NDE. Not remembering is not the samething as not aware. People do not remember events leading up to trauma, that dies nit mean they were unaware at the time. The question is if you need the brain to be aware or not.

However if you don't have a NDE, then you were unaware?

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Consciousness survives death but memory doesn't?

However if you don't have a NDE, then you were unaware?

I think it does. This is purely philisophicsl now, but I think the information that is you is recorded in another fashion. Imprinted upon another framework for a mind. Potentially a universal conciousness providing the "space" for an immaterial spirit realm. Not totally unlike how a computer provides the "space" for vr realms or your brain provides the "space" for dreamscapes.

Certainly for there to be memory articulated here in the physical realm it will need a physical storage tool. ( the brain)

Like I said. My guess is that everyone has NDEs, but only a certain percentage remember them. Certainly a certain percentage has them but does die, so they cannot articulate them, and it's not unreasonable to assume that at least some people have them but do not remember. This makes the actual number of NDEs very understated.

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Like I said. My guess is that everyone has NDEs, but only a certain percentage remember them. Certainly a certain percentage has them but does die, so they cannot articulate them, and it's not unreasonable to assume that at least some people have them but do not remember. This makes the actual number of NDEs very understated.

If you have a NDE, then you were aware, if not then you just don't remember it but you still had a NDE.

Can you not see the problem in this reasoning? You've presented a way to determine awareness after death, then ignore it in the opposite scenario.

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If you have a NDE, then you were aware, if not then you just don't remember it but you still had a NDE.

Can you not see the problem in this reasoning? You've presented a way to determine awareness after death, then ignore it in the opposite scenario.

Aware of what? A spirit world?

You are assuming the conclusion again. The whole astonishing thing is that countless NDErs apear to be aware when they should not. Not just a few.

There is no way to tell if it cannot be articulated. Those are merely logical guses.

Edited by Seeker79

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Aware of what? A spirit world?

Awareness.
You are assuming the conclusion again. The whole astonishing thing is that countless NDErs apear to be aware when they should not. Not just a few.

There is no way to tell if it cannot be articulated. Those are merely logical guses.

Are you really unable to see that double standard you have created?

NDEs therefore awareness after death, the opposite logically is no NDE therefore no awareness. You've gone and ignored your original reasoning in order to keep up the conclusion of awareness after death.

This is called confirmation bias.

Edited by Rlyeh

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Awareness.

Are you really unable to see that double standard you have created?

NDEs therefore awareness after death, the opposite logically is no NDE therefore no awareness. You've gone and ignored your original reasoning in order to keep up the conclusion of awareness after death.

This is called confirmation bias.

Not at all. I am aware that An NDE may have occurred, just not remembered. There is every reason to allow room for this.

Edited by Seeker79

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Not at all. I am aware that An NDE may have occurred, just not remembered. There is every reason to allow room for this.

So confirmation bias it is.

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So confirmation bias it is.

Ok... That's not quite right, but if that is CB, then you are guilty aswell.

Using common sense and logic to deduce a non mathmathmatical probability is not confirmation bias. It may not be true... There might be other variables...

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A question comes to mind. Ok, we have a dream. We can't anolyze that dream until we are awake/conscious.

Is an NDE (light/tunnel) simply their perception of the dream after they've regained consciousness? When their conscious mind attempts to make sense or recall their dream?

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Like I said. My guess is that everyone has NDEs, but only a certain percentage remember them. Certainly a certain percentage has them but does die, so they cannot articulate them,

There's no way you can know this. It's entirely possible that the only people who have NDEs are those that survive. If someone dies (permanently) it may be that they don't experience NDEs - either way it's unknowable.

You could ask a psychic, I suppose. :whistle:

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