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Rlyeh

Afterlife and the brain

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As much as I'd love to believe the mind can survive death, the understanding of the brain won't let me.

It is quite obvious the state of the brain plays a big role in what we associate with the mind, consciousness, personality, memory, emotions.

If the mind can survive death, this implies the mind is not dependent on the brain yet affecting the brain can bring about anything from amnesia, mood swings, change of personality to total loss of consciousness.

How do believers in the after life resolve this conflict of polar opposites?

I can only come to the logical conclusion the dead are dead in mind and body.

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As much as I'd love to believe the mind can survive death, the understanding of the brain won't let me.

It is quite obvious the state of the brain plays a big role in what we associate with the mind, consciousness, personality, memory, emotions.

If the mind can survive death, this implies the mind is not dependent on the brain yet affecting the brain can bring about anything from amnesia, mood swings, change of personality to total loss of consciousness.

How do believers in the after life resolve this conflict of polar opposites?

I can only come to the logical conclusion the dead are dead in mind and body.

That's because believers ( most of them) operate from the premis that the brain is a receiver of conciousness. An antenna. We might use a television as an example. If you change, the channel, or mess with the wiring, or any number of manipulations the television will respond in any number of ways. The parts and chemistry is still important for the antenna to operate, but not the source of the signal.

Quite obviously if NDEs are what they apear to be, this is probably the case.

Edited by Seeker79
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That's because believers ( most of them) operate from the premis that the brain is a receiver of conciousness. An antenna. We might use a television as an example. If you change, the channel, or mess with the wiring, or any number of manipulations the television will respond in any number of ways. The parts and chemistry is still important for the antenna to operate, but not the source of the signal.

Quite obviously if NDEs are what they apear to be, this is probably the case.

And how does this relate to other species on earth? Those with and without brains.

Honestly I find that to be an egotistic assumption. What about a Monkey? A Jelly-fish? A dog? Lets say we discover aliens. What is this source to them?

Assuming this source exist why is our brain the only receiver out of the entire universe.

I have no qualms with the possible existence of something after-life. I find it completely possible. I just don't think it is something that has any basis in anything we know about the universe. I would say the brain has absolutely nothing to do with it. Whatever is happening can not be explained with our current knowledge of the universe.

EDIT: Actually. I would say it probably takes place outside of the universe as we know it. So any logic we apply to it make not make any sort of the sense in the plain of existence this after-life functions on.

Edited by Kazoo

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The brain does not survive death only the spirit does. The brain will decay with the rest of the body. The spirit must retain knowledge though or how would it know who to contact after death.

I have seen a ghost so I know something survives death.

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Pretty sure I am that (most?) people who believe in an afterlife do so because of they believe some aspect of a biological members - his soul or whatever you may call it - is immaterial and survives end biological end at his death.

Slightly off-topic, but has science been able to explain consciousness/sentience yet? How non-organic, possibly unconscious particles come to form sentience?

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EDIT: Actually. I would say it probably takes place outside of the universe as we know it. So any logic we apply to it make not make any sort of the sense in the plain of existence this after-life functions on.

Other animals and life would merely focus it differently. We can apply plenty of logic, philosophy, and even deduction to things that may be outside of this universe, we cannot apply science and empiricism.

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Mass Brain Damage/Comatosis. Study this and we will probally find the answer to how the soul function.

Biggest problems with that though is families that have something to do with these conditions don't particully a) want people prodding and poking their loved ones in this state B) want to increase the chance of not living again.

Not that I blame them or anything I would probally do the same.

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I think I'm just going to wait and find out. Is there really a point to discuss it? He said she said, nobody can say for sure what happens. Interesting theories are interesting though.

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That's because believers ( most of them) operate from the premis that the brain is a receiver of conciousness. An antenna. We might use a television as an example. If you change, the channel, or mess with the wiring, or any number of manipulations the television will respond in any number of ways. The parts and chemistry is still important for the antenna to operate, but not the source of the signal.

If consciousness is the signal, how does this address the problem of unconsciousness?

A broken TV has no effect on the signal.

The brain does not survive death only the spirit does. The brain will decay with the rest of the body. The spirit must retain knowledge though or how would it know who to contact after death.

I have seen a ghost so I know something survives death.

This isn't a resolution to the problem in the OP. Edited by Rlyeh

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I think I'm just going to wait and find out. Is there really a point to discuss it? He said she said, nobody can say for sure what happens. Interesting theories are interesting though.

To me this is a glaring problem, I'm interested how people resolve it (assuming they make some attempt)

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If consciousness is the signal, how does this address the problem of unconsciousness?

A broken TV has no effect on the signal.

It does for the tv. No reception. It becomes a useless pile of elements.

There is no such thing as unconsciousness. This is just a state to describe when the tv is off. This is the very reason why NDES would occur in the first place. Why they happen when people are under heavy anestisia or when electrical activity seems to be tiny or non existant in the brain, or why we continuously dream while asleep. Just different channels or alternate ones. So we call them altered states of conciousness.

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It does for the tv. No reception. It becomes a useless pile of elements.

The signal still exists. However in the state of unconsciousness, consciousness ceases.
There is no such thing as unconsciousness.
Medical science disagrees with that. In fact it has demonstrated the opposite.
This is just a state to describe when the tv is off. This is the very reason why NDES would occur in the first place. Why they happen when people are under heavy anestisia or when electrical activity seems to be tiny or non existant in the brain, or why we continuously dream while asleep. Just different channels or alternate ones. So we call them altered states of conciousness.

Your analogy still fails to explain lack of consciousness, the total lack of mental awareness. If a signal, mental awareness should always logically exist as long as it is transmitted.

I suppose you've answered my question, you resolve it by ignoring it, pretending unconsciousness doesn't exist.

Edited by Rlyeh

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The brain does not survive death only the spirit does.

I know that brains exist - I've seen one, and I've been led to believe that I have one of my very own, too.

But I've never seen a spirit. I don't know anybody who has. How do we know that a spirit exists? What is a spirit? Can we define it, measure it, or even tell if it's alive or not?

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I know that brains exist - I've seen one, and I've been led to believe that I have one of my very own, too.

But I've never seen a spirit. I don't know anybody who has. How do we know that a spirit exists? What is a spirit? Can we define it, measure it, or even tell if it's alive or not?

Spirits is the stuff I drink.

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Medical science disagrees with that.

It's just a label to describe when the body is inactive. When you are asleep, you are said the be unconcious. In fact you are concious of your dreams. You may not remember them, that dosnt mean that conciousness is gone. If this were not true we would not have NDEs in the first place. why would we have millions of stories if unconsciousness simply is just cessation any kind of experience.

I have been in surgery before. I know the feeling of being there one second and wakeing up hours latter as if nothing had happened. I have also slept like that before. Science prooves that we can have all sorts of experiences while "unconcious" it's just the memory that is the problem.

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Spirits is the stuff I drink.

Thanks for clearing that up. Good to know it will survive long after we're dead. :tu:

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It's just a label to describe when the body is inactive. When you are asleep, you are said the be unconcious. In fact you are concious of your dreams. You may not remember them, that dosnt mean that conciousness is gone. If this were not true we would not have NDEs in the first place. why would we have millions of stories if unconsciousness simply is just cessation any kind of experience.

It is not the body it is the awareness.

Notice everyone who has had a NDE was alive when recounting their experience?

"When you are asleep, you are said the be unconcious." - Who says this? What I've read, sleep is reduced consciousness and medically distinctive from unconsciousness.

Edited by Rlyeh

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I know that brains exist - I've seen one, and I've been led to believe that I have one of my very own, too.

But I've never seen a spirit. I don't know anybody who has. How do we know that a spirit exists? What is a spirit? Can we define it, measure it, or even tell if it's alive or not?

I have. If you have never seen one, I would remain skeptical.

We measure it the same way we do everything else... By its affects. We don't know gravity is there either, all we can do is quantify its affects.

We can define it... there are probably many inturpretations... I would define it as the the unit of conciousness that I consider I. We can measure it several ways. What percentage of people has experienced an OBE, NDE and how it has effected their lives. We can look at its history and delve deep into really why people believe it exists. Lots of ways to investigate. We can even use simple logic to explore why it might exist.

I think regardless if one thinks the spirit is metaphysical or physical in nature, it is obvious apart of life.

There are those such as myself that believe ultinately spirit penetrates everything. And even a rock has a form of conciousness.... But this is purely philosophical.

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It is not the body it is the awareness.

Notice everyone who has had a NDE was alive when recounting their experience?

I'm not sure how else one would remember the event if they were dead. This is a silly assertion. You want to draw lines in the sand where we cannot. What is "dead" now probably will not be dead a hundred years from now.

If you were to collapse in front of me and I called the ambulance they would ask if you were concious or not.

Quit obviously if NDEs are spiritual events there has to be the sharing of information from spirit body to memory. To retain the event and be able to articulate it a functional brain is necessary.

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I'm not sure how else one would remember the event if they were dead. This is a silly assertion. You want to draw lines in the sand where we cannot. What is "dead" now probably will not be dead a hundred years from now.

I'm just showing how NDEs do not necessarily show consciousness after death. The process requires a living brain.
Quit obviously if NDEs are spiritual events there has to be the sharing of information from spirit body to memory. To retain the event and be able to articulate it a functional brain is necessary.

Is consciousness a spiritual or biological function?

If spiritual, the biological brain should only affect the perception, not loss of self-awareness.

Edited by Rlyeh

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I have. If you have never seen one, I would remain skeptical.

We measure it the same way we do everything else... By its affects. We don't know gravity is there either, all we can do is quantify its affects.

We can define it... there are probably many inturpretations... I would define it as the the unit of conciousness that I consider I. We can measure it several ways. What percentage of people has experienced an OBE, NDE and how it has effected their lives. We can look at its history and delve deep into really why people believe it exists. Lots of ways to investigate. We can even use simple logic to explore why it might exist.

I think regardless if one thinks the spirit is metaphysical or physical in nature, it is obvious apart of life.

There are those such as myself that believe ultinately spirit penetrates everything. And even a rock has a form of conciousness.... But this is purely philosophical.

I'm going to have to remain sceptical about this. What evidence is there that NDEs are not purely natural phenomena - explicable in biochemical terms (even if we dont yet have the ability to do so)?

That's the problem I see with arguments about the soul and the origin of conciousness. Just because we don't know the answer now does not mean we have to inject a supernatural explanation. This has happened countless times throughout history. And if there's one thing that history has shown is that many phenomena which were explained supernaturally (eg, lightning, illness, etc) have been shown to have natural explanations. As far as I'm aware, the direction of knowledge gained has always been from supernatural to natural explanations. Never the other way round.

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I'm going to have to remain sceptical about this. What evidence is there that NDEs are not purely natural phenomena - explicable in biochemical terms (even if we dont yet have the ability to do so)?

That's the problem I see with arguments about the soul and the origin of conciousness. Just because we don't know the answer now does not mean we have to inject a supernatural explanation. This has happened countless times throughout history. And if there's one thing that history has shown is that many phenomena which were explained supernaturally (eg, lightning, illness, etc) have been shown to have natural explanations. As far as I'm aware, the direction of knowledge gained has always been from supernatural to natural explanations. Never the other way round.

I wouldn't argue with that. What is known is ultimately what is natural. I think a natural explanation will reveal a universal conciousness that we are apart of. I see it as inevitable, and not at all supernatural. It's only supernatural when we don't understand it. Why can't NDEs be both biochemical and spiritual?

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It does for the tv. No reception. It becomes a useless pile of elements.

There is no such thing as unconsciousness. This is just a state to describe when the tv is off. This is the very reason why NDES would occur in the first place. Why they happen when people are under heavy anestisia or when electrical activity seems to be tiny or non existant in the brain, or why we continuously dream while asleep. Just different channels or alternate ones. So we call them altered states of conciousness.

Just because you can't see it, does not intentionally mean it's not there.

If the TV goes out it's not the whole world's tv's that are out, just yours. In some way shape or form tv will exist in a different place. Whats not to say that someone thats unconcious wants to come back, this could be their way of okcyubai.

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I'm just showing how NDEs do not necessarily show consciousness after death. The process requires a living brain.

Is consciousness a spiritual or biological function?

If spiritual, the biological brain should only affect the perception, not loss of self-awareness.

The articulation in a physical world and the memory certainly does, but you would be assuming the conclusion to say the the experience itself does.

It's both. It's my opinion one is just the other side of the coin than the other. The physical just part of reality that includes the non physical ( if you don't like that term, you might say multidimensional where information is retained but the medium is unlike matter/energy as we know it). Different parts of a very large iceberg.

This is precicly why NDEs are so astonishing. People seem to have self awareness when they should not.

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Just because you can't see it, does not intentionally mean it's not there.

If the TV goes out it's not the whole world's tv's that are out, just yours. In some way shape or form tv will exist in a different place. Whats not to say that someone thats unconcious wants to come back, this could be their way of okcyubai.

The signal is still there. The information still exist and moves foreword with or without the tv.

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