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Rlyeh

Afterlife and the brain

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The articulation in a physical world and the memory certainly does, but you would be assuming the conclusion to say the the experience itself does.

It's both. It's my opinion one is just the other side of the coin than the other. The physical just part of reality that includes the non physical ( if you don't like that term, you might say multidimensional where information is retained but the medium is unlike matter/energy as we know it). Different parts of a very large iceberg.

This is precicly why NDEs are so astonishing. People seem to have self awareness when they should not.

A NDE from a dead person would be astonishing. Currently we only have stories from living humans recounting a memory they may or may not have experienced.

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In human terms consciousness is a product of an organic host and organism. The brain generates and regulates self aware consciousness, through a conbination of chemicals and electricity. This is what we are accustomed to, and so we think of it as, one brain one consciousness. However, it is not just feasible, but humans are on the cusp of capturing, recording, storing, transmitting, and duplicating the human self aware conscoiousness. We can already transmit it via wireless network.

This may be done via artificial hosts or via neural transfers from human to human. This opens up all sorts of real physical possibiities for human consciousness; from virtual immortality through to a hive form of consciousness, where you could record your consciousness and then place it in one or a hundred other hosts both humanand android or artificial. You could then spend some time as independent entities, gathering information, sensations and experiences/memories, then recombine and share the 100 different memeories so that every individual had all of them. Each person could learn a separate language and when combined all would know all the languages each could learn to play a musicla instrument and when combinesd all would have the technical knowledge to play them all (but not necessarily the learned physical dexterities etc)

Now, knowing all this, the existence of the cosmic consciousness makes sense, either as an organic host of consciousnesses, or as an artificial construct which does the same thing. The cosmic consciousness has its own awareness, but it also facilitates transfer of knowledge and consciousness from sapient being to sapient being, all around the universe. It also stores the consciousness of deceased people and allows you to access them.

So for me, while my consciousness is a product of my organic host, I know it is not limited to that host. I have interacted with my deceased father's consciousness, from when he was in his early twenties and been to dances with him, ridden on his motorbike with him, and discussed a number of things with him. I have interacted with a variety of sapient life forms in all shapes and sizes from around the universe, and shared their experiences, and rode "piggyback" on their consciousnesses, via the interconnection of the cosmic consciousness.

That is my personal understanding and experience of the nature of human consciousness and its endurance after death. The thing is though, that my father's consciousness was stored as it was in the past, not an growing organic and developing awareness as i am. He did not know who I was, because I accessed his consciousness before he was married to my mother and before i was born. I wanted to find out what he was like as a young man and when he was courting my mother.

Edited by Mr Walker

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I believe in the after life. I'm human and it gives me hope to think that death is not the end. I cannot prove it. Am I wrong to act as if it is a certainty, if that gives me comfort?

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So for me, while my consciousness is a product of my organic host, I know it is not limited to that host. I have interacted with my deceased father's consciousness from when he was in his early twenties and been to dances with him, ridden on hs motorbike with him, and discaused a number of things with him.

That is my personal understanding and experience of the nature of human consciousness and its endurance after death. The thing is though, that my father's consciousness was stored as it was in the past, not an growing organic and developing awareness as i am. He did not know who I was, because I accessed his consciousness before he was married to my mother and before i was born. I wanted to find out what he was like as a young man and when he was courting my mother.

So do you believe your father's consciousness you interacted with was his original self-awareness or a stored copy?

I believe in the after life. I'm human and it gives me hope to think that death is not the end. I cannot prove it. Am I wrong to act as if it is a certainty, if that gives me comfort?

I'm asking for resolution, not comfort.

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The signal is still there. The information still exist and moves foreword with or without the tv.

*sigh* that was the point.

You know like the old saying if a tree falls and no one hears the sound did it still happen.

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So do you believe your father's consciousness you interacted with was his original self-awareness or a stored copy?

I'm asking for resolution, not comfort.

It seems to have been a stored copy. However the consciousness of beings I have interacted with around the universe were living same- time, self aware sapient beings, doing jobs and living their lives. Actually you have made me think here. It is also possible that i was attached to stored memories in those cases. However I had to "physically" travel across the galaxy and universe, through a network of communication devices to get to the physical locations of those beings, so I suspect they were living and real. In my father's case i simply stepped into his world from the 1930s it was like living in a movie, where you could interact with the characters and travel within the movie "world", but not change the outcomes or real time events. You become a sort of bit player with an impromptu and improvised role within the bigger picture. I have also travelled back into the past on historical "expeditions" to observe past realities, and found much the same to apply.

Eg it is no good talking to doctors from the nineteen thirties as they give you a guided tour of their hospital, about the fact that, not only are all the patients smoking in their wards, but so are they. Or trying to give modern medical advice.They are trapped within the realities of their own existence/time. Yet i can observe details, down to the type of cigarette they are smoking, and confirm that data later, through research.

My point was that any technology capable of storing a copy of the human self aware consciousness is capable of reproducing it and re-attaching it to a host, either organic or artificial. Ie "resurrecting" a consciousness in a host . Humans will be doing this in the next generation, and so it is impossible NOT to accept its feasibility.

Edited by Mr Walker

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It seems to have been a stored copy. However the consciousness of beings I have interacted with around the universe were living same- time, self aware sapient beings, doing jobs and living their lives.

My point was that any technology capable of storing a copy of the human self aware consciousness is capable of reproducing it and re-attaching it to a host, either organic or artificial. Ie "resurrecting" a consciousness in a host . Humans will be doing this in the next generation, and so it is impossible NOT to accept its feasibility.

That sounds something like a mental clone.

I guess by consciousness surviving death, I'm refering to the original mind existing.

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That sounds something like a mental clone.

I guess by consciousness surviving death, I'm refering to the original mind existing.

There is no difference, such is the nature of human thought and memory. The original mind does exist. Even when split into many separate forms it can be reunited into one singular form. Stored memory does not differentiate between memory of real events and of mental constructs imaginations etc. Thus your memory as it exists in your mind, can be stored and transfered, totally intact and unchanged, into another brain or artificial memory storage. No one, including yourself, will be able to determine an, "original memory.

After each transfer, individual memories will begin to diverge, as individuals have separate experiences, but they can be reunited and merged as one (stored in a hundred individual hosts) any time it is desired.

From my limited experiences with the cosmic consciousness i think it operates a bit like this. It stores, has access to, and provides limited access to others; memories (and current self awareness) of all sapient self aware entities with which it is connected.

Edited by Mr Walker

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There is no difference, such is the nature of human thought and memory.

No difference to the outsider, big difference to the original subject. It is like teleportation, the original is destroyed and an exact copy is made. To both the outsider and the copy, there is no difference, however the original no longer exists.
The original mind does exist. Even when split into many separate forms it can be reunited into one singular form.
Dismantling a car to build others destroys the original.
Stored memory does not differentiate between memory of real events and of mental constructs imaginations etc. Thus your memory as it exists in your mind, can be stored and transfered, totally intact and unchanged, into another brain or artificial memory storage. No one, including yourself, will be able to determine an, "original memory.
I'm talking about awareness, the state of being aware.
After each transfer, individual memories will begin to diverge, as individuals have separate experiences, but they can be reunited and merged as one (stored in a hundred individual hosts) any time it is desired.
By refering to them as individuals even you acknowledge they are not the same original. Edited by Rlyeh

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I think when one's brain dies, one's personality dies, as one's personality is the unique configuration of the brain's neural network. I don't know of any evidence other than this physical construction and architecture of the brain.

As far as spiritual experiences, if one considers the whole of space-time as like a loaf of sliced bread, each slice representing a single isolated moment of space-time, then seeing ghosts or communicating with dead people may be leakages between these past frozen moments (slices).

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No difference to the outsider, big difference to the original subject. It is like teleportation, the original is destroyed and an exact copy is made. To both the outsider and the copy, there is no difference, however the original no longer exists.

Dismantling a car to build others destroys the original.

I'm talking about awareness, the state of being aware.

By refering to them as individuals even you acknowledge they are not the same original.

Perhaps it is semantic but your awareness is a biological entity composed of chemicals and electricity That entity can be reproduced to be identical to the original So tha tit is indistinguishable from the original memory and self awareness. It is like the transmat beam where BOTH the original and the transmitted entitys exist, one at the point of departure and one at the point of arrival. You are thinking perhaps of the original organic host but there is NO originality to self awareness. From the pov of the awareness ALL the awarenesses would BE the original and all would believe/think /know, that they were the original. The original lived in a host which carried it through the experinces which formed it but long afer the death of that host the original self awareness will continue on; growing, sharing, learning, and evolving.

To make it clear One can transfer memory and self awareness without affecting or harming the original just as one copies music.

Yes while the hosts are separate the memories will individualise, but then, when melded together on a regular basis, they will become as one. Each host will have identical memories at that point, and again they will slowly diverge until they are melded again.

There is nothing mystical, metaphysical, or even problematic about this. it is just technology and will probably become common place within a few decades.

The more interesting and difficult ethical issue is how host bodies for these consciousnesses will be provided. Either clones or artificial hosts are possibilities Clones are more achievable and could be produced now using existing technologies, but have more ethical issues.

Another twist is that one could import memories from anyone. Eg how to speak a language or memories of a holiday etc. Once the technology is available you could record your memories and self awareness. Then, when people died, their memories could be archived, to be available to the living for personal or historical purposes.

Edited by Mr Walker
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From the pov of the awareness ALL the awarenesses would BE the original and all would believe/think /know, that they were the original. The original lived in a host which carried it through the experinces which formed it but long afer the death of that host the original self awareness will continue on; growing, sharing, learning, and evolving.

To make it clear One can transfer memory and self awareness without affecting or harming the original just as one copies music.

If someone created a duplicate of you, would you be aware of all your duplicates actions and thoughts?

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If someone created a duplicate of you, would you be aware of all your duplicates actions and thoughts?

Once the consciousnesses were reintegrated, yes. As much as I can remember all my own past actions and thoughts, which is limited. But they are all stored in my brain, and could be enhanced and recovered by artificial stimulus, to give perfect recall. That is a separate side to this technology. Scientists are working on both drugs and mechanical devices to enable this enhancement.

Out of interest there is considerable success at the moment in transmitting thoughts in the form of speech, from one person to another using neural implants and wireless technology. At the moment success is limited by the complexity of speech/thought but the technoogy exists to do it, and in simple form it is happening now. As we get better technology and understanding we will be able to read another person's thoughts(or more accurately their stream aof verbal consciousness) directly. Humans can already direct machines like wheel chairs and robot arms or legs by thought alone.The thought is transmitted to a computer operated device which operates the machine.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Once the consciousnesses were reintegrated, yes. As much as I can remember all my own past actions and thoughts, which is limited. But they are all stored in my brain, and could be enhanced and recovered by artificial stimulus, to give perfect recall. That is a separate side to this technology. Scientists are working on both drugs and mechanical devices to enable this enhancement.

Out of interest there is considerable success at the moment in transmitting thoughts in the form of speech, from one person to another using neural implants and wireless technology. At the moment success is limited by the complexity of speech/thought but the technoogy exists to do it, and in simple form it is happening now. As we get better technology and understanding we will be able to read another person's thoughts(or more accurately their stream aof verbal consciousness) directly. Humans can already direct machines like wheel chairs and robot arms or legs by thought alone.The thought is transmitted to a computer operated device which operates the machine.

That wasn't the question.

Put it another way, if two objects are identical, are they the same object?

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I don't think that replying the informations means some kind of afterlife. I'm on the same line of rlyeh here (but just here)..

What if you lived since your born with an hypothetical device that could register all you did, thought and feel in your entire life? Sure, after your death somebody could access to this information and reply your experience, but your personal point of view, that compose yourself as much as the informations you carry.. wouldn't just be around to know and feel it. So it wouldn't make any difference for us.

Maybe it would be a nice way for people who lose dears to still interact with them somehow.. but that's just it.

If in the future we'll be able to carry the entire brain in a machine (ala singularity), that's another kettle of fish.

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A NDE from a dead person would be astonishing. Currently we only have stories from living humans recounting a memory they may or may not have experienced.

May or may not? You think they are lieing?

So you have personally defined death? The line that we call clinically dead jumps all over the place. Heart failure? Brain failure? temp 60 degrees, blood drained from the body, and zero electrical activity in the brain? It's you that wants to add to the definition that it's a state that one cannot come back from. This will be challenge more and more into the future as technology advances. And it is a prediction that the incidence of NDEs will positively corolate with increased technological capabilities. This will be strong evidence in favor of the spiritual inturpretations of NDEs

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I don't think that replying the informations means some kind of afterlife. I'm on the same line of rlyeh here (but just here)..

What if you lived since your born with an hypothetical device that could register all you did, thought and feel in your entire life? Sure, after your death somebody could access to this information and reply your experience, but your personal point of view, that compose yourself as much as the informations you carry.. wouldn't just be around to know and feel it. So it wouldn't make any difference for us.

Maybe it would be a nice way for people who lose dears to still interact with them somehow.. but that's just it.

If in the future we'll be able to carry the entire brain in a machine (ala singularity), that's another kettle of fish.

What makes you so sure a singularity has not already occurred ?

Edited by Seeker79

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As much as I'd love to believe the mind can survive death, the understanding of the brain won't let me.

It is quite obvious the state of the brain plays a big role in what we associate with the mind, consciousness, personality, memory, emotions.

If the mind can survive death, this implies the mind is not dependent on the brain yet affecting the brain can bring about anything from amnesia, mood swings, change of personality to total loss of consciousness.

How do believers in the after life resolve this conflict of polar opposites?

I can only come to the logical conclusion the dead are dead in mind and body.

My stance is that reality is an illusion and part of that illusion involves the highest levels of mind.

There is no life or death.

Edited by Mr Right Wing

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May or may not? You think they are lieing?

Not lying, just the brain trying to make sense by filling in the gaps. It would explain why NDEs reflect the subject's beliefs.
So you have personally defined death? The line that we call clinically dead jumps all over the place. Heart failure? Brain failure? temp 60 degrees, blood drained from the body, and zero electrical activity in the brain? It's you that wants to add to the definition that it's a state that one cannot come back from. This will be challenge more and more into the future as technology advances. And it is a prediction that the incidence of NDEs will positively corolate with increased technological capabilities. This will be strong evidence in favor of the spiritual inturpretations of NDEs

The cease of all biological functions that maintain the organism's life. Edited by Rlyeh

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What makes you so sure a singularity has. It already occurred ?

Not 100% sure what you are asking me here, but I lurk this forum since some good time so giving your views, I assume you mean if a singularity "hasn't already occured"?

If that's the question, I'm not "so sure" but I couldn't know anyway.

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Not lying, just the brain trying to make sense by filling in the gaps. It would explain why NDEs reflect the subject's beliefs.

The cease of all biological functions that maintain the organism's life.

It might, but in sure you are aware that nearly every experience is filtered through psychological and cultural bias. Even simple mundane things. Wouldn't the goggles people where be a better candidate for this. You also have to understand context. If One feels an all powerful presence, a Christian might call it Jesus, a Muslim Allah, or a native American, the great spirit. In fact it would more unrealistic and not fit with the human condition if there were only one kind of experience.

Precisely, those functions have stopped and are restarted by doctors.

Edited by Seeker79

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It might, but in sure you are aware that nearly every experience is filtered through psychological and cultural bias.

That isn't quite the same as encountering your version of heaven, god, prophets. In some instances NDEs are totally contradictory between two subjects of different faiths.
Precisely, those functions have stopped and are restarted by doctors.

Not the functions I'm talking about that occur on the cellular level. Some one suffering rigamortis, decomposition, etc, is definitely not coming back.

Edit: Even if we had the technology, I suspect the "living" person would be effectively brain dead.

Edited by Rlyeh

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As much as I'd love to believe the mind can survive death, the understanding of the brain won't let me.

It is quite obvious the state of the brain plays a big role in what we associate with the mind, consciousness, personality, memory, emotions.

If the mind can survive death, this implies the mind is not dependent on the brain yet affecting the brain can bring about anything from amnesia, mood swings, change of personality to total loss of consciousness.

How do believers in the after life resolve this conflict of polar opposites?

I can only come to the logical conclusion the dead are dead in mind and body.

i dont think the brain is the mind. i don't think the mind is the soul. three different things in my belief.

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I don't think that replying the informations means some kind of afterlife. I'm on the same line of rlyeh here (but just here)..

What if you lived since your born with an hypothetical device that could register all you did, thought and feel in your entire life? Sure, after your death somebody could access to this information and reply your experience, but your personal point of view, that compose yourself as much as the informations you carry.. wouldn't just be around to know and feel it. So it wouldn't make any difference for us.

Maybe it would be a nice way for people who lose dears to still interact with them somehow.. but that's just it.

If in the future we'll be able to carry the entire brain in a machine (ala singularity), that's another kettle of fish.

The assumption is that the memories and consciousness are relayed into a person or device which continues to experience and build on those. So there is no loss of continuity or self awareness. It, and therefore our sense of self, continues unbroken.

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That wasn't the question.

Put it another way, if two objects are identical, are they the same object?

That is a false dichotomy

The answer is both yes and no.

If two apparently separate items are identical they are the same object, and not actually two objects. If two identifiably separate items are indistinguishable from each other, then they are not the same object, even though they seem to be identical..

That approaches the concept of connected photons.

But i do not understand the purpose of your query, or what practical diffeernce it makes. I already know my consciousness is not unique to me, or trapped within my host body, so I am not as worried as some about making a dozen or more copies of myself to enhance/extend my experiences, learning and knowledge /understanding..

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