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Saru

How many alien civilizations are there ?

185 posts in this topic

Gidday Mate!!

All the best for the new year, and the very best to your wonderful daughter as well :D

Best Christmas present ever is a call from Noelle. Even better, we talked while I opened her package to me. She knows me sooo well. :yes:

Heck yeah they do! CISCO has an excellent vid, maybe one of these youtube buffs could dig it up, called a day in the life of a packet. Very informative.

Well, not on YouTube. (I checked.) I'll try their site later on. Dunno if I mentioned it or not, but the network I designed as my Last Official Function at the college is still up and running 20+ years later. I designed for the future and they haven't yet fully utilized all it's capable of giving them. :clap:

I'd hate to be on a distant planet, and get this.

[Pic cut due to eyeball complaints. ;) ]

Still, it is an indicator of intelligent life......... of sorts!! :D

Of sorts. Or it may be interpreted as a declaration of war. OR peace. :P

I need some entertainment. Anywhere you Boony & Bade are hanging out?

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Best Christmas present ever is a call from Noelle. Even better, we talked while I opened her package to me. She knows me sooo well. :yes:

I bet it is. I have a Step Daughter, we have had good times, and bad times, I cannot imagine life without her, and I love her to the end of space. Not quite as special as your bond form what I have read, but I know first hand how step daughters can sure brighten one's life.

Heck, after this post I am going to sing off and visit her on the way home. She will get akick out of that. Second little on on the way too.

Well, not on YouTube. (I checked.) I'll try their site later on. Dunno if I mentioned it or not, but the network I designed as my Last Official Function at the college is still up and running 20+ years later. I designed for the future and they haven't yet fully utilized all it's capable of giving them. :clap:

I will have a look around, I have not seen it for a while, I might even email CISCO and see if they have an updated version.

That is an achievement, quite a feather in your cap, the amount of systems I have pulled out that were "future proofed" is embarrassing. I do not know why people thought heaps of cat 5 or voice grade would suffice on the future instead of new cables ??????? Most systems installed kilometres of what would eventually become only draw wires.

Of sorts. Or it may be interpreted as a declaration of war. OR peace. :P

LOL! Never thought of that.

So those humans think this is funny huh!!! Try this transmission HOOMAAN

I need some entertainment. Anywhere you Boony & Bade are hanging out?

Have not seen Boon much this year, Bade has been flat out, always good to see the guys pop in, Bade will probably pop by at some stage soon. I think Boon has had enough of ET recently. I have to say I understand why, the latest people to get heavily involved in trying to convince us that ET is here and now have certainly dropped the bar. The days of intense investigation into Generals, and WWII documents, with who was meeting who, and who invented what has been replaced with a couple who keep pushing that they cannot believe man can stack some rocks together. Ahh well, it can only be indicating better times ahead! Most of the "information" of late of pretty much bottom of the barrel stuff. Not anywhere to go from here I think but up.

Off to visit my Emmalee. Cheers mate.

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You seem to have missed that every now and then I have let out that Portage County is the only case I have seen in my 35 years that I remain perplexed about. If aliens are a candidate for any claim whatsoever, I believe that is the one, however, it is a very, very long way from validated as an ET visit.

Add to that Lonnie Zamora and you've got me as well.

If a thing is real, it can be proven, if a story is honest, it will stand up. That is that case I am waiting for. It might be here, it might be Portage County, but the nonsense being spread about by the likes of Friedman and Hastings I find embarrassing to the species and tends to bury any tantalising possibility. What people like this peddle is genuine claptrap. 99.9999% if the ETH does not deserve a listen. I personally feel I am rather patient hanging out for that 0.0001% chance. Putting up with the silliness of the woo train in the meantime can test my patience, and that is why I appear so grumpy.

Flaming True Believers (FTBs) live everywhere, not just in Ufology. Look at conspiracy theorists for a good example. It's like a hive instinct with groups of hives separated by some niggling detail. If you step back and look at the overall pattern, it gets rather amusing ... and frustrating.

Like Kludge, I feel whilst growing old is mandatory, growing up is indeed optional.

Hee, hee ... yep. I'm finally getting to enjoy a happy first childhood. :-D

tn_1237648331755.jpg

Swiped! :-D

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You just do not read. That is the problem with believers.

If your not with us, your against us.

*Sighs*

Yes, I find the stories of Aliens hyped up, missing facts, and loaded with conjecture. I would say that 99.9999% do not deserve to have ET associated with them.

That is the nature of man, and I am even more perplexed at how this basic factoid escapes every believer on the planet. Man is mischievous ny nature, and hey, why not. A smile goes a long way.

You seem to have missed that every now and then I have let out that Portage County is the only case I have seen in my 35 years that I remain perplexed about. If aliens are a candidate for any claim whatsoever, I believe that is the one, however, it is a very, very long way from validated as an ET visit.

Add to that Lonnie Zamora and you've got me as well.

I think i differ from most* experts in the field of ufolology in that I don't really set much store by these dramatic Close Uncounters stories**; I think the most genuine UFO reports are likely to be the ones that the Skeptics*** find it easiest to dismiss, as Flairs or Ballons or, of course Secret Aircraft, simply because I think that would be the form that UFOs would be most likely to take, if they were at all likely. I don't really think that a first step would be to try to say Hello, or even less likely land in person; I think it'd be far more likely, and far more sensible, to take some time to study carefully first in a properly scientific way, and so probes or Drones would be the most sensible way.

*most other experts

** except Roswell and Rendlesham, obviously

*** who don't do their homework (I miss Skyeagle)

Edited by Lord Vetinari

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For example, say that an alien civilization does not rely on sound to communicate, but rather, movement or something similar to a sense of smell. What type of technology would that civilization develop to chat with each other across long distances?

My point is, how would we be able to detect, let alone decipher, something we don't have the foggiest notion even exists? It could be all around us at this very moment, yet we'd never know.

Thinking of strange sea creatures who flash bio-luminescence as communication... communication by light/color! NOW THATS SOMETHING ON EARTH, and man doesn't know whats being communicated! As the above posters point, here's this creatures light signals and we haven't a clue about it.

We cant decipher bird song, or whale song, so what the heck gives us the notion we will recognize an alien signal? And if a signal 'was' declared truly alien...how will we understand it?

On a human to human level, for ex, there was the Nazi enigma machine for code writing, again a source of communication, that WE could only understand/translate by capturing a similar device to decode it with!

But without the decoder, the code remained alphabetti spaghetti...

so do we really expect to have a space message from alien civilizations that we will recognize as such?

Mork calling Orson?

we could have been getting 'messages' or at least signals for years and years...but without the right decoder... how will we ever know?

Edited by seeder

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Ok to get things in perspective, I - like countless others, DO believe in the possibility or even certainty of life elsewhere. But as this post began with Saru's link re the Drake equation, well I'm just wondering if everyone accepts the equation as is? Because it has been criticized quite a bit and I quote:

"Criticism of the Drake equation follows mostly from the observation that several terms in the equation are largely or entirely based on conjecture. Thus the equation cannot be used to draw firm conclusions of any kind. As Michael Crichton, a science fiction author, stated in a 2003 lecture at Caltech:

The problem, of course, is that none of the terms can be known, and most cannot even be estimated. The only way to work the equation is to fill in with guesses. As a result, the Drake equation can have any value from "billions and billions" to zero. An expression that can mean anything means nothing. Speaking precisely, the Drake equation is literally meaningless...

Another objection is that the very form of the Drake equation assumes that civilizations arise and then die out within their original solar systems. If interstellar colonization is possible, then this assumption is invalid, and the equations of population dynamics would apply instead.

One reply to such criticisms is that even though the Drake equation currently involves speculation about unmeasured parameters, it was not meant to be science, but intended as a way to stimulate dialogue on these topics. Then the focus becomes how to proceed experimentally. Indeed, Drake originally formulated the equation merely as an agenda for discussion at the Green Bank conference"

Now I have to go back to work, so will check back/chat later...

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On a human to human level, for ex, there was the Nazi enigma machine for code writing, again a source of communication, that WE could only understand/translate by capturing a similar device to decode it with!

Actually this is a poor example. The allies - specifically the British with significant help from the Poles who did the initial work - were decoding Enigma messages as fast as they were received. The Germans were never aware that their messages were being intercepted and decoded much as Imperial Japan never caught on that their codes had been cracked.

BUT, if you really want a problem on a human scale, try the fact that neither gender can completely interpret what the other is saying. :-D

Edited by Kludge808

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I think i differ from most* experts in the field of ufolology in that I don't really set much store by these dramatic Close Uncounters stories**; I think the most genuine UFO reports are likely to be the ones that the Skeptics*** find it easiest to dismiss, as Flairs or Ballons or, of course Secret Aircraft, simply because I think that would be the form that UFOs would be most likely to take, if they were at all likely. I don't really think that a first step would be to try to say Hello, or even less likely land in person; I think it'd be far more likely, and far more sensible, to take some time to study carefully first in a properly scientific way, and so probes or Drones would be the most sensible way.

Sooo ... essentially, the first clue that an observation is valid is that it's considered resolved by those you call "skeptics." (Oops, you capitalized it. Must mean we're special.) At the same time, the ones listed as "unknown" can be written off as felgecarb. That's an interesting take.

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Actually this is a poor example. The allies - specifically the British with significant help from the Poles who did the initial work - were decoding Enigma messages as fast as they were received. The Germans were never aware that their messages were being intercepted and decoded much as Imperial Japan never caught on that their codes had been cracked.

yes, but only after an Enigma machine had been captured, which gave the crucial information. That's the point.

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yes, but only after an Enigma machine had been captured, which gave the crucial information. That's the point.

The Poles had worked out the code before capturing the machine. Having the machine made it easier to manage. I do see your point though.

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We could have many alien civilizations ,and many that are to come,Its the If and When that gets us every time ! :alien::innocent:

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I was just responding on this thread http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=240912

and thought my comment or part of it, may highlight some points made on this thread, about sheer distances and time..

quote:

"It would take a spaceship traveling at the speed of light four thousand million years to get from one end of the cluster to the other.

To give a sense of scale, our galaxy (the Milky Way) is separated from its nearest neighbour, the Andromeda galaxy, by two and a half million light years".

Phew!

Sums like that means we will never know some of our possible neighbors, nor will we hear from them

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I was just responding on this thread http://www.unexplain...howtopic=240912

and thought my comment or part of it, may highlight some points made on this thread, about sheer distances and time..

quote:

"It would take a spaceship traveling at the speed of light four thousand million years to get from one end of the cluster to the other.

To give a sense of scale, our galaxy (the Milky Way) is separated from its nearest neighbour, the Andromeda galaxy, by two and a half million light years".

Phew!

Sums like that means we will never know some of our possible neighbors, nor will we hear from them

then it's a good job that we have scientists working on Warp drives even as we speak, isn't it, since FTL is, as demonstrated here, a red Herring.

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Warp drives eh?

I was reading an article that made this quote:

""Remember, nothing locally exceeds the speed of light, but space can expand and contract at any speed," White told io9. "However, space-time is really stiff, so to create the expansion and contraction effect in a useful manner in order for us to reach interstellar destinations in reasonable time periods would require a lot of energy.

And indeed, early assessments published in the ensuing scientific literature suggested horrific amounts of energy — basically equal to the mass-energy of the planet Jupiter (what is 1.9 × 1027 kilograms or 317 Earth masses). As a result, the idea was brushed aside as being far too impractical. Even though nature allowed for a warp drive, it looked like we would never be able to build one ourselves".

But then it gets better, but it made me giggle reading the scientific terms:

"My early results suggested I had discovered something that was in the math all along," he recalled. "I suddenly realized that if you made the thickness of the negative vacuum energy ring larger — like shifting from a belt shape to a donut shape — and oscillate the warp bubble, you can greatly reduce the energy required — perhaps making the idea plausible."

White had adjusted the shape of Alcubierre's ring which surrounded the spheroid from something that was a flat halo to something that was thicker and curvier.

sounds like a monologue from Doctor Who! 'Oscillate the warp bubble'! And I do hope Alcubierre doesnt mind having his ring shape adjusted! If you want to read this quite interesting article the link is:

http://io9.com/59632...irst-warp-drive

Personally tho, if this 'could even' be viable, it wont be happening for quite some time Im afraid, as the final statement he makes is:

"But for now, pursuit of this idea is very much in science mode. "I'm not ready to discuss much beyond the math and very controlled modest approaches in the lab," he said"

Edited by seeder

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My answer to the OPs question is:

We will never know for certain and what we think we already know for certain -now- none of us currently will still be around to see what has been proven for certain and what has not. I would like to think that it is not just -us- ; however, what I like to think and what can actually be proven are two entirely different things.

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Just a thought- Perhaps alien civilisations are trying to contact us by telepathy which is instantaneous and breaks the light-speed barrier?

Furthermore perhaps humans have been picking up these alien telepathic communications for years, but the human mind is unable to process them properly.

Foe example suppose aliens broadcast this telepathic message into space "Hello, we are on another planet", and it's picked up by a human.

But instead of coming across loud and clear, it triggers hallucinations in the recipients mind and he thinks he's having a close encounter or abduction.

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Just a thought- Perhaps alien civilisations are trying to contact us by telepathy which is instantaneous and breaks the light-speed barrier?

Furthermore perhaps humans have been picking up these alien telepathic communications for years, but the human mind is unable to process them properly.

Foe example suppose aliens broadcast this telepathic message into space "Hello, we are on another planet", and it's picked up by a human.

But instead of coming across loud and clear, it triggers hallucinations in the recipients mind and he thinks he's having a close encounter or abduction.

Ah...so...."telepathy is instantaneous and breaks the light-speed barrier"

Really? How do you think you know that?

And all the while I was replying I was beaming a message to you, did you get a sudden craving for a plate of liver and bacon with mash soaked in the onion gravy?

No?

Oh ok then. You see the problem is, telepathy is science fiction, however, real science has tested it but nothing of interest or surprise was discovered. Its a non starter. So its been relegated to the fringe once again.

Not only that, and inline with your own suggestion, if a cat could do telepathy and beam a message at you, well, you'd need to be able to understand the cats thought processes and language, which none can ever do.

Ever had moments where you get a high pitch whine in one ear? What if that was an alien signal? You wouldn't have a clue what the whine meant would you?

So, number one, telepathy is total nonsense, (for humans anyway), number 2, if it wasn't nonsense it'd need to be in a language we could understand, and I doubt any potential aliens will be speaking English on other planets.

But in line with the topic, how many civilizations would you imagine there are 'out there'?

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I bet it is. I have a Step Daughter, we have had good times, and bad times, I cannot imagine life without her, and I love her to the end of space. Not quite as special as your bond form what I have read, but I know first hand how step daughters can sure brighten one's life.

I adopted Noelle after she'd been through some terrifying times and was the first safe haven she'd ever had. As a result, we were pretty much inseparable for the majority of the time we were together. Even now, that bond exists despite there being 3500 miles between us.

Heck, after this post I am going to sing off and visit her on the way home. She will get akick out of that. Second little on on the way too.

How'd it go? :-)

That is an achievement, quite a feather in your cap, the amount of systems I have pulled out that were "future proofed" is embarrassing. I do not know why people thought heaps of cat 5 or voice grade would suffice on the future instead of new cables ??????? Most systems installed kilometres of what would eventually become only draw wires.

I had two 4-pair Cat5 cables plus a fiber pair pulled to each major workstation. (Minor ones didn't get fiber.) At the same time, I made sure that there was provision to pull new cable (copper or fiber) in case that became inadequate. There was absolutely no POTS cabling anywhere. None at all. There were major budget battles along the way but overall I came out ahead with what I needed while conceding some points I could live without. (Of course, I never told anyone that part. ;-) )

LOL! Never thought of that.

So those humans think this is funny huh!!! Try this transmission HOOMAAN

Yep. Kind of takes the idea of "Wizard War" (Ref: WW II) to a whole new level. :-D

Have not seen Boon much this year, Bade has been flat out, always good to see the guys pop in, Bade will probably pop by at some stage soon. I think Boon has had enough of ET recently. I have to say I understand why, the latest people to get heavily involved in trying to convince us that ET is here and now have certainly dropped the bar.

Dropped it? I think they buried it! "I believe they exist therefore they exist," seems to be the current trend of thought. This makes it all but a religion - maybe a cult? - which is a not good thing where skeptical inquiry is needed, even if it's by other believers who happen to believe a slightly different version. I know Boony swore off CTs - or at least 9/11 - and I finally gave up on that particular area.

The days of intense investigation into Generals, and WWII documents, with who was meeting who, and who invented what has been replaced with a couple who keep pushing that they cannot believe man can stack some rocks together. Ahh well, it can only be indicating better times ahead! Most of the "information" of late of pretty much bottom of the barrel stuff. Not anywhere to go from here I think but up.

Your sig says it all, we need new cases & data. Batting around the old ones ad nauseum accomplishes nothing. But then, the "investigators" are basically FTBs looking for proof of their beliefs. Anything skeptics consider interesting is automatically written off as not being real. Ah, that's the ticket. Consider all the old cases as being of interest and they'll all go away. :-D

Off to visit my Emmalee. Cheers mate.

I wish I could see Noelle ... *sigh* ... Hope it went well ... :-)

Cheers, old friend

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<snip>

Have not seen Boon much this year, Bade has been flat out, always good to see the guys pop in, Bade will probably pop by at some stage soon.

Unfortunately I am flat out oversubscribed these day and simply have no time to engage, although I miss the debates here a lot. I do, however, pop in every day to follow what is going on, but sadly I cannot afford the time to post very much. Hopefully in February things will turn out to the better.

I think Boon has had enough of ET recently. I have to say I understand why, the latest people to get heavily involved in trying to convince us that ET is here and now have certainly dropped the bar. The days of intense investigation into Generals, and WWII documents, with who was meeting who, and who invented what has been replaced with a couple who keep pushing that they cannot believe man can stack some rocks together. Ahh well, it can only be indicating better times ahead! Most of the "information" of late of pretty much bottom of the barrel stuff. Not anywhere to go from here I think but up.

I must admit that I miss Sky. At least he put in a good effort and truly argued for his position. And there were real data points to research and argue. Discussing stacking rocks is just...absurd. I think TV is really rotting some people's brain.

Cheers,

Badeskov

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Sky`s still on the air Badeskov`s ! Busy as always !

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Sky`s still on the air Badeskov`s ! Busy as always !

I know, Big D. Too bad he is not around the UFO part of the forum :P

Cheers,

Badeskov

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I know, Big D. Too bad he is not around the UFO part of the forum :P

Well, make it happen. I know you can be very persuasive. Why else would I still have the goat?

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Well, make it happen. I know you can be very persuasive. Why else would I still have the goat?

Oh boy, you still have the goat?....I...uhm..no, never mind :P

Cheers,

Badeskov

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Oh boy, you still have the goat?....I...uhm..no, never mind :P

Oh, yeah. If nothing else, he keeps the locals under control. Somehow a few think those horns are for decoration. :whistle:

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I think i differ from most* experts in the field of ufolology in that I don't really set much store by these dramatic Close Uncounters stories**; I think the most genuine UFO reports are likely to be the ones that the Skeptics*** find it easiest to dismiss, as Flairs or Ballons or, of course Secret Aircraft, simply because I think that would be the form that UFOs would be most likely to take, if they were at all likely. I don't really think that a first step would be to try to say Hello, or even less likely land in person; I think it'd be far more likely, and far more sensible, to take some time to study carefully first in a properly scientific way, and so probes or Drones would be the most sensible way.

*most other experts

** except Roswell and Rendlesham, obviously

*** who don't do their homework (I miss Skyeagle)

That would probably the best eventuality for non intelligent species, but I see as much peril as gain in hiding from a intelligent species and spying on them. Do we have that right? What we see as behind us, may actually be simply another way and very much in front of us. It might be seen as arrogant for us to decide who is intelligent enough to contact, and I see that across the board for other as well in the same situation. We are not going to be the only species in existence, and I am yet to see a good reason as to why other species must be more advanced than we. Heck, some say we say we would not even be able to recognise them, but we have the right to determine the level of a species intelligence? I see much motive for distrust, and a possibility of a tainted first contact when it is not actually first contact. In that way I do not think it is sensible to be dishonest with someone you are hoping to work out a relationship with. To my experience, honesty is the best policy if you want a thing to actually happen.

I am afraid you and I will, have to present our cases to the UN. I see your approach as possibly tainting first contact with intelligent species, as I said, our past and present does not follow this model unless a non intelligent species. Every intelligent species we just walk up and shake hands. Your model I feel could lead even to war.

I disagree on the big stories, they initially got big because some sort of incident actually did happen that got peoples attention. It might well have been military, and for the life of me, I had no idea there were so many military operations from 1940 through to 1970, did you? They seem to have had an operation for just about anything. I bet there was one for cleaning latrines. Very methodical, and I have to be impressed by the high level of organisation. Being a new era, and with "operations" heading off Willie nilly in every direction, we were bound to get some interesting tales. That does not mean some strange things did not happen.

I miss Sky, but am happy to see he is in his new niche, and comfortable. I kind of hope he does not come back, because he has become something of a legend, and Indeed I agree, he was ten times the man when it comes to the current silly debates such as how did man mange to pile rocks up. Todays "believers"** truly pale by comparison. Sky was a military man, and as such commanded respect. I sort of hope the legend lives on, as I fear he might have some trouble living up to the shoes he left. For sure, not a debater has come close to filling them. Long Live Skyeagle409.

LOL, well obviously those two re the more well now cases, but to be fair, they also should really be reclassified as fiction and not even UFO cases as such.

** With the exception of Quillius.

Edited by psyche101
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