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Yamato

Quick Introduction to Israel and Palestine

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The death toll in the US would fall to nearly zero as well if every single person was physically confined to their own homes when not working. Somethings just can not be justified by this line of argument though.

I'm not really trying to justify their actions - just offering proof that the two situations are tied together. When arguments are made about Israel abusing the Palestinians and no mention is made of why such measures were necessary I feel the need to offer a little balance. Not that it changes anyone's mind but acting as though Israel's actions are taken within some kind of vacuum is just inaccurate.

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When arguments are made about Israel abusing the Palestinians and no mention is made of why such measures were necessary I feel the need to offer a little balance.

That, right there, is the key word that I think everyone disagrees with.

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That, right there, is the key word that I think everyone disagrees with.

The implication being that a sovereign country should not stop the random murder of it's citizens IF it can do so? How would you propose to cause an enemy who is willing to commit suicide in a pizza restaurant to rethink his actions?

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If resistance causes oppression, oppression causes resistance. It doesn't really matter what little piece of the puzzle someone picks up and decides is the origin of the conflict, or what side one takes. It's a self-perpetuating cycle of violence when we support either side of this status quo. So get the axe and chop the whole thing down. Eliminating the status quo makes a lot more sense than propping up either side of it. From a practical standpoint, deferring to the sovereign state who is also referred to as our "friend" would make the most sense to get real political change. That would involve twisting Israel's arm. Beyond that it's a matter of resistance (terrorism vs. freedom fighting) vs. tyranny (oppression vs. security).

Israel lies to keep its Palestinian policies alive; why can't everyone see that? If they were so seriously concerned about their security, they wouldn't be insisting on living on top of the very people they whine are making them so insecure.

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That death toll I mentioned fell to nearly zero after the blockade and the fences were put in place.I suspect that within days or a few weeks it would return once those barriers are removed. Israel is doing what it has to do. Any government that wouldn't try to protect it's citizens is useless IMO.

Conflating the siege with Israel's security is ludicrous. What is it about paper, crayons, stationary, soccer balls, musical instruments, toilet paper, books, candles, clothing, cups, cutlery, crockery, electric appliances, refrigerators, washing machines, glasses, light bulbs, matches, needles, sheets, blankets, shoes, mattresses, spare machine and car parts, and threads that makes Israel so safe? If banning entire populations of people from these harmless items make other people "safe" those other people are cowards.

If Israel wants to be hated universally around the world as it is, and threatened by the world as it sometimes is, keeping Gaza entombed in misery is a great way to do it. What kind of a totalitarian statist thinks that government crime like this is equivalent to "security"? Some people have lost the plot on what this great country of ours was founded for. How convenient that you even exist as an American today and you can't even realize why. The Founders would be ashamed of what we're putting up with when our own people are this treasonous to our founding principle.

If Americans put up with this kind of oppression from Mother England, we'd have brought out the guns and locked and loaded a lot sooner than we did. And oh how Mother England would have deserved it more than she ever actually did. It would've been 1676, not 17. It's all so conveniently easy to forget, when it's just someone else who lacks liberty, when it's a Muslim or an Arab or a Palestinian or a brown person, and their shoes can't seem to fit our feet.

Edited by Yamato

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The implication being that a sovereign country should not stop the random murder of it's citizens IF it can do so? How would you propose to cause an enemy who is willing to commit suicide in a pizza restaurant to rethink his actions?

Not by punishing an entire group of people. You see, the problem is that there are limits to what a country can ethically do to ensure security.

You argue that Israel must continue treating the Palestinians as second class citizens because, if they stop, the Palestinians will take over and treat the Jews as second class citizens. You approach the situation as if there's some sort of distinction between Palestinians and Jews which makes it more palatable for it to be the Palestinians that are mistreated. Others don't see that distinction and approach the issue with the notion that no one should be treated as a second class citizen. That's where this whole argument between the two sides occurs.

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Not by punishing an entire group of people. You see, the problem is that there are limits to what a country can ethically do to ensure security.

You argue that Israel must continue treating the Palestinians as second class citizens because, if they stop, the Palestinians will take over and treat the Jews as second class citizens. You approach the situation as if there's some sort of distinction between Palestinians and Jews which makes it more palatable for it to be the Palestinians that are mistreated. Others don't see that distinction and approach the issue with the notion that no one should be treated as a second class citizen. That's where this whole argument between the two sides occurs.

And I think that we see it totally differently. You seem to believe that the conflict begins and ends with a discussion of human rights. I believe the nexus of the conflict is the hatred between two groups of people. An enduring, seething, irreducible hatred that politics will never solve. If you take the time to look at the world today, even now the nations are beginning to turn against Israel more openly. I think that will increase both in number and speed soon. Stellar does it ever seem the slightest bit odd to you that the WHOLE WORLD is stressed out over a country that is no larger than some US cities? That a country, a people, should be so universally hated when their chief sin is to have survived intact against all odds? To your point - I think no one should be so hated as to lose their life just because of their circumstance of birth. THIS has happened for centuries to the Jew. It's no wonder they are willing to do damned near anything to stay on that little piece of land no matter what. And the other side? They only came, for the most part, to prosper with the Jews who rebuilt the land. Nothing but hatred keeps them locked in this battle and you can look all over the region and see the same clawing, scrabbling, bloodthirsty hatred being played out against fellow Arab, Jew and any non believer who stumbles their way. I believe it is supernatural and we are meant to draw a lesson from it. The saddest thing of all for me to contemplate is that IF the Israelis ever gave up this pitiful small piece of land, the countries of Egypt, Jordan and Syria would probably fight to take it from the Palestinians or at least figure a way to tax them or steal from them. And the Israelis, even if they settled Greenland, would still die anywhere in the world they prospered because of this same enduring hatred.

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And I think that we see it totally differently. You seem to believe that the conflict begins and ends with a discussion of human rights. I believe the nexus of the conflict is the hatred between two groups of people. An enduring, seething, irreducible hatred that politics will never solve. If you take the time to look at the world today, even now the nations are beginning to turn against Israel more openly. I think that will increase both in number and speed soon. Stellar does it ever seem the slightest bit odd to you that the WHOLE WORLD is stressed out over a country that is no larger than some US cities? That a country, a people, should be so universally hated when their chief sin is to have survived intact against all odds? To your point - I think no one should be so hated as to lose their life just because of their circumstance of birth. THIS has happened for centuries to the Jew. It's no wonder they are willing to do damned near anything to stay on that little piece of land no matter what. And the other side? They only came, for the most part, to prosper with the Jews who rebuilt the land. Nothing but hatred keeps them locked in this battle and you can look all over the region and see the same clawing, scrabbling, bloodthirsty hatred being played out against fellow Arab, Jew and any non believer who stumbles their way. I believe it is supernatural and we are meant to draw a lesson from it. The saddest thing of all for me to contemplate is that IF the Israelis ever gave up this pitiful small piece of land, the countries of Egypt, Jordan and Syria would probably fight to take it from the Palestinians or at least figure a way to tax them or steal from them. And the Israelis, even if they settled Greenland, would still die anywhere in the world they prospered because of this same enduring hatred.

You've been corrected with history lessons and you always return with a convenient amnesia of the history. Arabs and Jews lived in peace for hundreds of years while Jews were oppressed in the West. Europe got rid of its "Jewish problem" and dumped it on the heads of innocent Palestinians and here we are. One group of refugees creating another group of refugees like the video says.

Human rights don't have a beginning or an end. No conflict can determine the advent or the removal of human rights. Rights are perpetual. They are self-evident and not granted by government authority or violent tyranny. If Israel was willing to do anything, abandoning their illegal activities would be the obvious no-brainer but they're not even willing to do that.

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Britain's mess making in the Middle East buttress what I'm saying. Its unintended consequences provide very good reasons why I don't support practicing colonialism. Israel isn't the sole exception to that.

Argh again with that Israel is a colonialist power crap. Come on, I thought I've refuted this bogus claim too many times here for you to repeat it.

So, please, stop spreading your lies here.

No state has a right to collective punishment. Israel isn't the sole exception to that, either.

Yet Israel doesn't practice and didn't practice collective punishment. Israel has every right, and that was reaffirmed by international law that you so love to claim that Israel is in violation of, to put the blockade on Gaza. And btw, I love it how you totally ignore the fact that Egypt has as much part in this as Israel. Yet Egypt and Gaza have no war (they are now even controlled by the same political party, as Hamas is a Palestinian branch of Muslim Brotherhood).

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Argh again with that Israel is a colonialist power crap. Come on, I thought I've refuted this bogus claim too many times here for you to repeat it.

So, please, stop spreading your lies here.

Yet Israel doesn't practice and didn't practice collective punishment. Israel has every right, and that was reaffirmed by international law that you so love to claim that Israel is in violation of, to put the blockade on Gaza. And btw, I love it how you totally ignore the fact that Egypt has as much part in this as Israel. Yet Egypt and Gaza have no war (they are now even controlled by the same political party, as Hamas is a Palestinian branch of Muslim Brotherhood).

Well I'm certainly glad Egypt and Gaza "have no war". Now if we can only get Israel there too.

What Israel is doing to Palestine isn't just collective punishment, it's ethnic cleansing. The most horrific example of collective punishment short of genocide. You're wiping out Palestine and with it, the Palestinians. This policy isn't even domestic. You're doing this to foreigners.

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You've been corrected with history lessons and you always return with a convenient amnesia of the history. Arabs and Jews lived in peace for hundreds of years while Jews were oppressed in the West. Europe got rid of its "Jewish problem" and dumped it on the heads of innocent Palestinians and here we are. One group of refugees creating another group of refugees like the video says.

Human rights don't have a beginning or an end. No conflict can determine the advent or the removal of human rights. Rights are perpetual. They are self-evident and not granted by government authority or violent tyranny. If Israel was willing to do anything, abandoning their illegal activities would be the obvious no-brainer but they're not even willing to do that.

The first and greatest of which is survival. And the whole world can live in peace with Israel's enemies if they are willing to live as subservient citizens. My issue with most supporters of the Palestinians is that they won't be honest about the end game. We all know where it concludes yet the Palestinians are still looked upon as victims. I suspect that in the aftermath of a war of annihilation where the people of Israel were treated the same way (or worse) than the Syrians are treating their own today, most of the people in the world would just shake their heads and say - "well, they had it coming". NO ONE has THAT coming to them.

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Erik, while one might argue that as Israel did not have a 'mother state' when its people first invaded these lands (and therefore may not fit the definition of colonialist power), one can not even try to discount the fact that they were and are still colonisers.

This, coupled with the fact that they certainly did have a mother state when they started colonising the Occupied Territories, clearly shows that they are now without a doubt a colonialist power.

Oh and the blockade is by definition collective punishment. This has even been admitted by Israel's own leadership. They admitted that the blockade was designed to force the Gazans into renouncing Hamas, and also to try to split the two Occupied Territories' people up.

UN: Gaza blockade – collective punishment

http://www.ynetnews....4177710,00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8654337.stm

Edited by ExpandMyMind
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The first and greatest of which is survival. And the whole world can live in peace with Israel's enemies if they are willing to live as subservient citizens. My issue with most supporters of the Palestinians is that they won't be honest about the end game. We all know where it concludes yet the Palestinians are still looked upon as victims. I suspect that in the aftermath of a war of annihilation where the people of Israel were treated the same way (or worse) than the Syrians are treating their own today, most of the people in the world would just shake their heads and say - "well, they had it coming". NO ONE has THAT coming to them.

Exterminating people and then complaining that those people also wish for your own extermination as the reason for the war is absurd. That's just asking for it. Palestinians can't even want to do what Israel is doing, without being branded by Israelis as terrorists. That is blatant double standard. But Israel can't swallow Palestine up all at once and get away with it. They need to establish enough industry and trade, enough military might, and as much political power as possible first in order to get away with their Greater Israel Development Program on the world stage. So they're developing away as quickly as they comfortably can.

But the air is thick with change both in and around Israel. Israel is feeling the heat under new political pressure from the UN, from the US, from her neighbors to the north and south, and even from her own people. The world knows Israel is full of it. Their constant demagoguery sounds more tired than ever. Their global assassins, illegal blockades, ethnic cleansing and war crimes have tainted their reputation nearly beyond repair. Bini has been pounding his fists on the lectern for years and he hasn't been able to get the US to sit and roll over yet.

So Palestine does the most multilateral thing a state can do (go to the UN) and Israel spins it as "unilateral". Israel has no credibility. When they finally say something believable, let me know?

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You seem to believe that the conflict begins and ends with a discussion of human rights. I believe the nexus of the conflict is the hatred between two groups of people. An enduring, seething, irreducible hatred that politics will never solve.

You're right. Politics will never solve it. Respect and humanity will solve it, though. Each side hates the other for their actions and how they treat the opposite group. That is something that can be changed and solved.

If you take the time to look at the world today, even now the nations are beginning to turn against Israel more openly. I think that will increase both in number and speed soon. Stellar does it ever seem the slightest bit odd to you that the WHOLE WORLD is stressed out over a country that is no larger than some US cities?

No, it doesnt seem odd to me.

I think no one should be so hated as to lose their life just because of their circumstance of birth.

Agreed. Do you also agree that no one should be so hated as to live a second-class life because of their circumstances of birth?

THIS has happened for centuries to the Jew.

You know what? The current jews havent been alive for centuries. Nor the current palestinians.

Nothing but hatred keeps them locked in this battle and you can look all over the region and see the same clawing, scrabbling, bloodthirsty hatred being played out against fellow Arab, Jew and any non believer who stumbles their way.

Yes but ask yourself why they are hated. Do you think all palestinians hate them simply because they are jews?

The first and greatest of which is survival.

Survival doesnt grant you permission to do anything and everything.

Well I'm certainly glad Egypt and Gaza "have no war". Now if we can only get Israel there too.

What Israel is doing to Palestine isn't just collective punishment, it's ethnic cleansing. The most horrific example of collective punishment short of genocide. You're wiping out Palestine and with it, the Palestinians. This policy isn't even domestic. You're doing this to foreigners.

Its an exaggeration is what it is. Exaggerating the situation will help no one.

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Well I'm certainly glad Egypt and Gaza "have no war". Now if we can only get Israel there too.

What Israel is doing to Palestine isn't just collective punishment, it's ethnic cleansing. The most horrific example of collective punishment short of genocide. You're wiping out Palestine and with it, the Palestinians. This policy isn't even domestic. You're doing this to foreigners.

*Snip*

Ethnic cleansing.... wow what a nerve to claim such things.... yet in the mean time, in the real world, Israeli Palestinians have grown from 155,000 to 1.5 million, ten fold growth. Palestinians in the disputed territories have the highest level of literacy in the region, and have the highest GDP per capita in the region among other Arabs.

Again, there is no and there was no "Palestine" to wipe out - there are Palestinians, but they are the same as Lebanese, Jordanians and Syrians. Their existence as separate people is solely the result of British and French colonialism. They want their own state, I get it. Most Israelis have no problem with it. The problem is on the side you're representing - they are the ones who want to commit genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Edited by Karlis
Please cease personal fights

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Erik, while one might argue that as Israel did not have a 'mother state' when its people first invaded these lands (and therefore may not fit the definition of colonialist power), one can not even try to discount the fact that they were and are still colonisers.

Erm, yes you can. There are many other things that make up colonialism. For example, natural resources. In the case of the Zionists, there were no natural resources to take, on the contrary - they actually developed that neglected land. Second, Jews already lived in the area for thousands of years, perhaps as a minority, but still. Second, they didn't enforce their culture or religion on anyone, and as soon as they created their own state after the Brits were gone, they gave full cultural autonomy to the minorities - to this day Arabic is a co-official language in Israel, Arab holidays are celebrated freely, etc..

But, let's ignore it. You think it's colonialism - you have this gut feeling, so it must be true.

As soon as you didn't care to criticize your friend "Yamato" for blaming Israel of carrying out ethnic cleansing and exterminating the Palestinians, you lost all credit of any higher moral you think you represent.

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Wow, gone straight from lying to full blown blood libel!

What ethnic cleansing? can you stop breast feeding directly from Al-Qaeda's manifestos?

Ethnic cleansing.... wow what a nerve to claim such things.... yet in the mean time, in the real world, Israeli Palestinians have grown from 155,000 to 1.5 million, ten fold growth. Palestinians in the disputed territories have the highest level of literacy in the region, and have the highest GDP per capita in the region among other Arabs.

Again, there is no and there was no "Palestine" to wipe out - there are Palestinians, but they are the same as Lebanese, Jordanians and Syrians. Their existence as separate people is solely the result of British and French colonialism. They want their own state, I get it. Most Israelis have no problem with it. The problem is on the side you're representing - they are the ones who want to commit genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Surely you realize how extremist you sound? Convince the world there is no "Palestine". You've wasted enough time on me already.

How is what Israel is doing to Palestine not ethnic cleansing? The Palestinians are a people. Their very existence is reliant on the existence of Palestine. If Palestinians were bulldozing Israeli homes by the thousand, you'd be accusing Palestinians of the same in a new york minute, and rightfully so. You keep Palestinians in cages, entombed in sieges where cooking, school supplies and even toiletries and toys have been forbidden. You must not know what ethnic cleansing means. Your government treats Palestinians like sub-humans and the rhetoric you use to describe them describes them as sub-humans. You've committed ethnic cleansing on a population of innocent people who are mostly children. How many young Palestinians do you unjustly lock away in your prisons? Just how long do you think you can keep attacking other countries' civilians to keep your deprivation campaign on Gazans intact?

Ethnic cleansing (compare Serbo-Croatian etničko či¨ćenje[1]) is the process or policy of eliminating unwanted ethnic or religious groups by deportation, forcible displacement, mass murder, or by threats of such acts, with the intent of creating a territory inhabited by people of a homogeneous or pure ethnicity, religion, culture, and history.

http://en.wikipedia....thnic_cleansing

That is EXACTLY what Israel is doing. There is no exaggeration here.

Edited by Yamato
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Erm, yes you can. There are many other things that make up colonialism. For example, natural resources. In the case of the Zionists, there were no natural resources to take, on the contrary - they actually developed that neglected land. Second, Jews already lived in the area for thousands of years, perhaps as a minority, but still. Second, they didn't enforce their culture or religion on anyone, and as soon as they created their own state after the Brits were gone, they gave full cultural autonomy to the minorities - to this day Arabic is a co-official language in Israel, Arab holidays are celebrated freely, etc..

But, let's ignore it. You think it's colonialism - you have this gut feeling, so it must be true.

As soon as you didn't care to criticize your friend "Yamato" for blaming Israel of carrying out ethnic cleansing and exterminating the Palestinians, you lost all credit of any higher moral you think you represent.

First, Israel's policy in the Occupied Territories has been one of ethnic cleansing. This is not even debatable, as it is clearly shown and has been highlighted numerous times.

Thousands [140,000] lost residency under former policy, Israeli adviser says

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/05/11/israel.residency.policy/index.html

Civil Administration plans to expel tens of thousands of Bedouins from Area C

http://www.btselem.org/settlements/20111010_forced_eviction_of_bedouins

When Israel knocks down Palestinian villages and replaces them and their inhabitants with Jewish ones, this is by definition ethnic cleansing. Trying to deny this irrefutable fact is just plain silly. We have witnessed Israel's policy of ethnic cleansing.

This is before we consider that not allowing the 700, 000 refugees back to their homes after the War of Independence also qualifies as ethnic cleansing, whichever way you try to wash it.

But I agree with you that there is no 'extermination' policy and that using terms like this is counter-productive.

Colonisation at its heart does not necessitate the qualifiers you have tagged to it. You don't need to be after resources (though Israel actually have taken control of the resources in the Occupied Territories, namely water and arable land, so it seems a bit lacking in logic that you would bring that up?), and you do not need to force a culture or religion on the inhabitants. While this has happened in the past with some colonial forces, at the heart of it, colonisation and colonial ventures are about just that - colonising another's land. Of which Israel and it's immigrant population were most definitely guilty of in the aftermath of WW2 and in the Occupied Territories in present day.

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And thus mere "colonization" is an understatement. This is ethnic cleansing, by definition.

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When Israel knocks down Palestinian villages and replaces them and their inhabitants with Jewish ones, this is by definition ethnic cleansing. Trying to deny this irrefutable fact is just plain silly. We have witnessed Israel's policy of ethnic cleansing.

Nope, they didn't. The settlements weren't built on any Palestinian villages. That's another lie propagated by the Palestinians and their oil-rich friends in the gulf.

And Israel doesn't even rule most of them. You see, Area C, which is about 62% of the West Bank, is home to only about 3% of the Palestinians, or about 50,000 amid some 350,000 Israelis. The rest, some 97%, are under Palestinian self-rule.

Surely you realize how extremist you sound? Convince the world there is no "Palestine". You've wasted enough time on me already.

There is no Palestine, not yet. It didn't exist as a state and the people that have come to be known as Palestinians were part of the same people stretching all the way from Iran to Libya - Arabic speaking Muslim majority. They were divided to tribes. Then came along Europeans and introduced Nationalism and Colonialism.

So no, there was no Palestine. Not in the borders that the Palestinians themselves claim it exist - they simply claim the entire British Mandate borders, that's it. Well guess what - according to history, international law, etc. - there is another group of people that have claim to the region. These are the Jews. The thing is, us Jews have no problem sharing it in peace. The other side, wants everything or nothing. This is it.

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Nope, they didn't. The settlements weren't built on any Palestinian villages. That's another lie propagated by the Palestinians and their oil-rich friends in the gulf.

And Israel doesn't even rule most of them. You see, Area C, which is about 62% of the West Bank, is home to only about 3% of the Palestinians, or about 50,000 amid some 350,000 Israelis. The rest, some 97%, are under Palestinian self-rule.

I just provided two links that prove you wrong. And there are many more examples. Every time Israel demolishes a Palestinian home and evicts the residents, this is part of a policy of ethnic cleansing.

UN official: Israel engaging in ethnic cleansing

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4045623,00.html

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/ethnic-cleansing-of-palestinians-or-democratic-israel-at-work-1.361196

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I just provided two links that prove you wrong. And there are many more examples. Every time Israel demolishes a Palestinian home and evicts the residents, this is part of a policy of ethnic cleansing.

UN official: Israel engaging in ethnic cleansing

http://www.ynetnews....4045623,00.html

http://www.haaretz.c...t-work-1.361196

I'm sorry, but there are no examples there, just more ranting.

I find it interesting though, that two of the four most serious newspapers in a country you accuse of ethnic cleansing, racism, colonialism and many other horrible things, are allowed to publish pieces like that. I guess we're not so bad after all.

I'm still waiting for proof of which settlement in the West Bank (or in Area C) was built on any Palestinian village. You didn't provide any proof.

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Colonisation at its heart does not necessitate the qualifiers you have tagged to it. You don't need to be after resources (though Israel actually have taken control of the resources in the Occupied Territories, namely water and arable land, so it seems a bit lacking in logic that you would bring that up?), and you do not need to force a culture or religion on the inhabitants. While this has happened in the past with some colonial forces, at the heart of it, colonisation and colonial ventures are about just that - colonising another's land. Of which Israel and it's immigrant population were most definitely guilty of in the aftermath of WW2 and in the Occupied Territories in present day.

I'm sorry, no. This is actually not the definition of colonialism. You're just twisting and squeezing the definition in such a way as to suite it to our case. That's actually what you and Yamato are doing with most of the big words you've accused Israel for. Can't get real genocide or ethnic cleansing, let's play ball with the words so we can use them. Sorry, that's not how it works. If it doesn't quack like a duck, and doesn't look like a duck, it ain't a duck, no matter how strongly you feel about it. It's just not it.

And while we're at it, at the "heart of it" as you like to say, Jews cannot be colonizers in a place they lived for thousands of years, long before anyone spoke Arabic or practiced Islam. If anything, Arabs are the true colonizers of the Middle East, yet their colonialism started a thousand years ago, and continues to this day. Ask the Kurds, the Copts, the Maronites and the Assyrians. Oh wait, I guess if they'll ever be an Assyrian state or a Kurdish state and hundreds of thousands of them will come from the West to settle their country, it's colonialism, right?

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I'm sorry, but there are no examples there, just more ranting.

I find it interesting though, that two of the four most serious newspapers in a country you accuse of ethnic cleansing, racism, colonialism and many other horrible things, are allowed to publish pieces like that. I guess we're not so bad after all.

I'm still waiting for proof of which settlement in the West Bank (or in Area C) was built on any Palestinian village. You didn't provide any proof.

Nice non-reply, reply btw.

Show me where I claimed that settlements in the West Bank or Area C were built on Palestinians villages? Why randomly add that qualifier?

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I'm sorry, no. This is actually not the definition of colonialism. You're just twisting and squeezing the definition in such a way as to suite it to our case. That's actually what you and Yamato are doing with most of the big words you've accused Israel for. Can't get real genocide or ethnic cleansing, let's play ball with the words so we can use them. Sorry, that's not how it works. If it doesn't quack like a duck, and doesn't look like a duck, it ain't a duck, no matter how strongly you feel about it. It's just not it.

And while we're at it, at the "heart of it" as you like to say, Jews cannot be colonizers in a place they lived for thousands of years, long before anyone spoke Arabic or practiced Islam. If anything, Arabs are the true colonizers of the Middle East, yet their colonialism started a thousand years ago, and continues to this day. Ask the Kurds, the Copts, the Maronites and the Assyrians. Oh wait, I guess if they'll ever be an Assyrian state or a Kurdish state and hundreds of thousands of them will come from the West to settle their country, it's colonialism, right?

Obviously the Jews who already lived there were not colonisers, but I'm sure you are aware (especially seeing as I mentioned them specifically) that the Europeans immigrants - the vast majority of new Israel's population - were the people who I was referring to and most definitely were colonisers. And those currently colonising the West Bank are also irrefutably colonisers who are part of a colonial venture.

Also, you are the one who added qualifiers to colonisation. Colonisation does not require such qualifiers. Modern colonisation has been known to include converting and assimilating with the indigenous populations, as you state, but at its heart, colonisation is the establishment of colonies or 'groups of people' in a land that belongs to someone else. Converting and assimilating are in no way necessary for it to be classified as colonisation.

Edited by ExpandMyMind

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