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Grandpa Greenman

Goddess instead of God

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Aren't there a lot of examples of this in ancient history? I seem to recall that women were worshiped as divine from time to time by different cultures. Maybe I'm mistaken..it happens :w00t::yes:

Yes, there are examples. No, it is not the norm over-all in the world we live in.

Actually you two should read Merlin Stone's "When God was a Woman". She shows the sites of Goddess worship were a lot more numerous in the past but often neglected by archeologist who would prefer a more patriarchal perspective of history. Fact is even the bible has a feminin element which suggests Yahweh was listening to Chokmah as the voice of reason, Chokmah being a feminin version of God, and to a certain extent superieur. Isis allegedly stoled the name of God and was suppose to have power over him.

Has this Council (IIRC) (never heard of it) informed the catholic church in Rome? or the Head of the Church of England? Or any of the other State Reglions of the world?

It was at the council of Nicea in Turkey that JC was elected god and all those who didn't vote for it were called heretics and were burned at the stake: Methink it was in 325 CE.

Misty, open a history book. http://en.wikipedia....uncil_of_Nicaea Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

I don't think the Catholic church is really worshiping Mary as a Goddess. I think she is more of a go between saint to God the Father or Son.

Hello Darkwind actually there are several references of Mary as a Goddess in the over 6000 sermons Saint Bernard of Clairvaux wrote.

Bernard played the leading role in the development of the cult of the Virgin, which is one of the most important manifestations of the popular piety of the twelfth century. In early medieval thought, the Virgin Mary had played a minor role, and it was only with the rise of emotional Christianity in the eleventh century that she became the prime intercessor for humanity with the deity.[30]

from this page

Although there is lots to be said about who was the Mary he (and his fellow Cistercians and the Templar) really worship. Actually I doing a reasearch on the subject for my work on Vezelay. The only advange of being in France for the moment is of course the possiblility of going to the spot and check first hand. A good book for you Darkwind would be Ean Begg's The Cult of the Black Virgin. Albeit limited with information it would give you a fresh perspective of continued Feminin worship in France going back to before year 1 (temple of Isis were found in the Camargue region going back 2500 years). It would explain the marial fetish of French People for "Notre Dame" which is the title of all French cathedrals and also many Basilicas (the difference between a cathedral and a basilica is the presence of a bishop... no bishops no cathedral.). You have to remember that in a period of 250 years (and with financial means that were far from having a official existence) nearly 300 cathedrals were built in France alone. And they were all called "Notre Dame". So is the Goddess gone and buried ... not for all of us! Oh for those who believe that workers built those cathedrals for dog and glory read Jean Gimpel's book "The Cathedral builders" in which he shows how people worked for a paycheck and how much they were paid depending of the union they belong to. Those where not polical union they were skills union the were determining how much a worker was going to be paid. The most famous union's name was "Compagnion du devoir et de la liberté" (companion of duty and freedom) which changed it's name to " Companion du Temple de Salomon" (companion of Salomon's Temple) after the Templar purge of 1307 by Philip the fair.

Edited by Paracelse
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I'll do you one better - what if we had never started worshiping imaginary men/women in the first place.

Or worshiping anything, real or imaginary.

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either way, it doesn't matter since we are all going to get screwed on doomsday

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In my "unknowledgeable" opinion, I would venture to guess that "God" does not have, or need to have, a gender identity.

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I don't think of myself as a worshiper of any sort; my spirituality is more philosophic in nature than religious, a reverence, that has changed over the course of my lifetime, as life itself has wrought changes upon me. The word goddess, for me, is a form of shorthand that references many concepts and ideas. And maybe I'm wrong here, but isn't that the original intent of the word God/Goddess? Not as reference to a singular entity/being, but as a reference to thoughts, ideas, concepts, creative & moral forces, archetypes, and other non-material ideas, that over time became codified and literalized for those who are unable or unwilling to engage in or understanding abstract thinking, or perhaps were deprived of an education which would have encouraged "metaphysical" thinking and ideas? Certainly that's been done with the concept of evil, literalized into Satan/Devil, as an active, live entity that works negatively in our lives by those who misunderstand artists' renderings of the concepts and theories of evil personified by demons, jinns, etc. as portrayals of actual entities.

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I'll do you one better - what if we had never started worshiping imaginary men/women in the first place.

What a dull place the world would be.

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I don't think the Catholic church is really worshiping Mary as a Goddess. I think she is more of a go between saint to God the Father or Son.

I think they created Mary as we know her in order to bring pagans on board with the new religion, or aetheism if you believe Emperor Julian the apostate, and I do. However, I think with Mary being a goddess, then we are in Mary as Isis, Jesus as Horus territory, and the trinity being good old paganism, which I believe.....

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri

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There are Goddesses in quite a few religions around the world so there are female gods...religously speaking of course.

Christianity (Well catholics at least and a few other branches) might as well be a Polythesitic religion I mean, how many people pray to Mary or Fatima, Saint Marie Therese? all the saints even, and a good lock of them are women.

"Awk, I saw Mary come down from the sun and she touched me on the head and I was no longer bald!!!"

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What a dull place the world would be.

Yeah totally man, I mean, the world would SUCK without witch burnings, animal sacrifices and balsphemy death punishments to name a few things...no seriously, that stuff is cool.

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Yeah totally man, I mean, the world would SUCK without witch burnings, animal sacrifices and balsphemy death punishments to name a few things...no seriously, that stuff is cool.

Glad someone agrees with me.

A world without gods would be a world where humans were incapable of imagination or of many logical skils like analytical thinking, reason and extrapolation.

If humans consruct gods, then they do so from abilities which are useful in other critical areas of life.If humans have the capabilty to recognise and identify the presence of gods, then that also follows inevitably and inextricably from our self- aware sapience, which is critical to forming everything else we are.

So, a world without gods would be a dull, unimaginative, and non- human world. The dinosaurs neither created nor recognised gods, but their life sucked by comparison with our own. The abilities which create the recognition/constructionf gods and can lead to conflict ALSO create the positive and constructive/creative abilities of humanity. Without them we are no different to dinosaurs or other primate ancestors. Vicious, (nature tooth and claw) predatory, and dull.

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I seem to be unsure right now of the existence of gods and goddesses, but I don't feel like a dinosaur. I'll have to check the mirror to see if I look like one, though. I hope I have feathers instead of scaly skin! My analytic reasoning, and extrapolating skills seem to be intact, along with my creativity and compassion, but I will cop to feeling or being dull at times. Nevertheless, we are all children of the universe, equally human, are we not, due equal compassion and respect, irregardless of our belief system or lack of one? It's when we sink into judgement that we open the doors to our own vicious and predatory behavior towards those whom we consider less than. Does God love only those who love him back or does he love everyone equally?

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I seem to be unsure right now of the existence of gods and goddesses, but I don't feel like a dinosaur. I'll have to check the mirror to see if I look like one, though. I hope I have feathers instead of scaly skin! My analytic reasoning, and extrapolating skills seem to be intact, along with my creativity and compassion, but I will cop to feeling or being dull at times. Nevertheless, we are all children of the universe, equally human, are we not, due equal compassion and respect, irregardless of our belief system or lack of one? It's when we sink into judgement that we open the doors to our own vicious and predatory behavior towards those whom we consider less than. Does God love only those who love him back or does he love everyone equally?

Depends on which 'god' you mean.

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Depends on which 'god' you mean.

Good point, any/all? But I'm sticking with the rest of the post. I think we'd all be better served if we started looking for commonality instead of making judgments.

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how human of us to attach gender roles to our deities

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Here's the point I was trying to make: we are all children of the universe, equally human, are we not, due equal compassion and respect, irregardless of our belief system or lack of one. It's when we sink into judgement that we open the doors to our own vicious and predatory behavior towards those whom we consider less than.

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Here's the point I was trying to make: we are all children of the universe, equally human, are we not, due equal compassion and respect, irregardless of our belief system or lack of one. It's when we sink into judgement that we open the doors to our own vicious and predatory behavior towards those whom we consider less than.

Of course we are. If we can feel respect and compassion for ourselves, then certainly we can feel it for any other.

Part of the problem, imo, is the growing number of people who are never taught, or never learn, to feel love and respect for them selves, nor learn a sense of honour and ethics which goes with those feelings. That makes it hard for them to feel better about others, if they feel angry, unloving, and unrespectful towards themselves.

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I may come across as a rash sceptic to some but I can safely say this with a clear head - Wouldn't it be great if everyone knew god? and by this I mean the idea of god that I have that sometimes burns through my sceptical mind - a god not of any religion or doctrine but a god that knew us all, and we it? I think our world be a nicer place, much nicer; no fabrications of men to spoil it or infect it because we;d know the truth, not a god who judges our every move no matter how little, who tells us what to think etc and judge us for thought, a kind god and one who we'd feel safe around and likewise, a god who was as believable and as visible as the sky itself.

I really wish I could believe in such a god - it would be great if we all ended up ok in the end.

All that remains to be seen though.

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Does it really matter? I think gender is no more than an Earthly thing. Meant solely on reproduction. One's souls are born here and pass on to the afterlife. I don't think there is reproduction in the afterlife, I see no sense in it. Therefore why would there be different sexes in the adterlife? If anything, God has no gender affiliation. That's how I see it.

I believe their are masculine and feminine energies and functuons which are important in their distinctions, that they are valued by and included in 'the godhead' and have been passed down to us to eventually figure out... we have a long way to go with that because of these prodominant religions and the societies we live in. It may take a complete overhaul. And with anything so extreme as that there will be much confusion and anger during the transition. I believe that those who can see the harmony of god and godess will have a better chance at harmonizing male and female relationships in earthly reality. I think we are headed in this direction in some regard, but more than likely we will still have very large societal problems

I have more thoughts on this but I have to come back later. Thanks for posing this darkwind.

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It was at the council of Nicea in Turkey that JC was elected god and all those who didn't vote for it were called heretics and were burned at the stake: Methink it was in 325 CE.

You make it sound so cloak-and-dagger. Just to clarify a bit of history here, the Council of Nicaea met to codify what most Christian groups believed about their faith. Hence when they came to "vote" on the divinity of Jesus they were asking themselves what most people believed. Each bishop, on behalf of their group, stated what they believed. The eventual decision was 298-2 in favour of divinity - in other words, almost all Christians before the vote already believed in the divinity of Jesus.

And the two bishops who voted against were not burned at the stake. They were exiled but ten years later that decision was rescinded and the two dissenting bishops were allowed to return (I could be wrong, but as far as I am aware they never recanted their non-belief in the divinity of Jesus).

Just a couple of thoughts :)

~ PA

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Of course we are. If we can feel respect and compassion for ourselves, then certainly we can feel it for any other.

Part of the problem, imo, is the growing number of people who are never taught, or never learn, to feel love and respect for them selves, nor learn a sense of honour and ethics which goes with those feelings. That makes it hard for them to feel better about others, if they feel angry, unloving, and unrespectful towards themselves.

But your earlier post seems to diminish those who don't believe in god/a god, to set them apart as being less than, or to diminish a reality in which a deity it not ascendant. Or maybe I'm not understanding your intent: A world without gods would be a world where humans were incapable of imagination or of many logical skils like analytical thinking, reason and extrapolation. So, a world without gods would be a dull, unimaginative, and non- human worldI contend that whether there is a god or not, human beings would still have the same logical thinking skills, analyics, reason, etc., that these trait are not exclusive to religious folks nor are these skills affected by lack of religious beliefs.

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But your earlier post seems to diminish those who don't believe in god/a god, to set them apart as being less than, or to diminish a reality in which a deity it not ascendant. Or maybe I'm not understanding your intent: A world without gods would be a world where humans were incapable of imagination or of many logical skils like analytical thinking, reason and extrapolation. So, a world without gods would be a dull, unimaginative, and non- human worldI contend that whether there is a god or not, human beings would still have the same logical thinking skills, analyics, reason, etc., that these trait are not exclusive to religious folks nor are these skills affected by lack of religious beliefs.

I think he meant it is natural for humans to contemplate god... this is not to descriminate against those who havent come to a particular conclusion, but that those effects would apply to us as a whole if that wasnt a part of our overall biological/psychological makeup

Edited by SpiritWriter

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I think he meant it is natural for humans to contemplate god... this is not to descriminate against those who havent come to a particular conclusion, but that those effects would apply to us as a whole if that wasnt a part of our overall biological/psychological makeup

thanks for the clarification. The first part of your statement is clear to me, and beautifully stated, but the last part I'm not getting. I feel like I'm being a whole lot of stupid about this, but I've read it numerous times and it hasn't become much clearer to me. Waah!

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thanks for the clarification. The first part of your statement is clear to me, and beautifully stated, but the last part I'm not getting. I feel like I'm being a whole lot of stupid about this, but I've read it numerous times and it hasn't become much clearer to me. Waah!

Lol

I mean us as a whole body of people, that this is an aspect of the human race, not only on an individual level... and he was saying it would dull (and whatever other attribute he put to it) us if it was no longer part of our character

Edited by SpiritWriter

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For me, it is all about balance. To think of god as a single entity and masculine is a bit lopsided. I like the balance of the goddess to and it gives me a center. We all have both gender traits in our philological make up. IMO, I think the female makes for a calming energy while the male has a more active energy. Almost the difference between shopping and hunting. Shopping is a never ending activity of searching. The hunt has a definite beginning and end.

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You make it sound so cloak-and-dagger. Just to clarify a bit of history here, the Council of Nicaea met to codify what most Christian groups believed about their faith. Hence when they came to "vote" on the divinity of Jesus they were asking themselves what most people believed. Each bishop, on behalf of their group, stated what they believed. The eventual decision was 298-2 in favour of divinity - in other words, almost all Christians before the vote already believed in the divinity of Jesus.

And the two bishops who voted against were not burned at the stake. They were exiled but ten years later that decision was rescinded and the two dissenting bishops were allowed to return (I could be wrong, but as far as I am aware they never recanted their non-belief in the divinity of Jesus).

Just a couple of thoughts :)

~ PA

If you say so

Wavering Decision of Constantine:

The Trinitarian bishops prevailed. Emperor Constantine may have been a Christian at the time (although this is a matter of dispute: Constantine was baptized shortly before he died). Despite this, he had recently made Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire. This made heresy akin to revolt, so Constantine exiled the excommunicated Arius to Illyria (modern Albania).

Constantine's friend and Arian-sympathizer Eusebius, who eventually withdrew his objection, but still wouldn't sign the statement of faith, and a neighboring bishop, Theognis, were also exiled -- to Gaul (modern France).

Constantine reversed his opinion about the Arian heresy, and had both exiled bishops reinstated three years later (in 328). At the same time, Arius was recalled from exile.

Constantine's sister and Eusebius worked on the emperor to obtain reinstatement for Arius, and they would have succeeded, if Arius hadn't suddenly died - by poisoning, probably, or, as some prefer to believe, by divine intervention.

Arianism regained momentum and evolved (becoming popular with some of the tribes that were invading the Roman Empire, like the Visigoths) and survived in some form until the reigns of Gratian and Theodosius, at which time, St. Ambrose set to work stamping it out.

from here

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