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Karlis

What are your thoughts about salvation?

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According to the Bible, God’s salvation is meant for people of all nations. However, there are different ideas as to what salvation is, and different ideas as to how and when salvation is obtained.

What is salvation, and what do you think Paul meant in his letter to the Philippians where he wrote:

Php 2:12
... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling?
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According to the Bible, God’s salvation is meant for people of all nations. However, there are different ideas as to what salvation is, and different ideas as to how and when salvation is obtained.

What is salvation, and what do you think Paul meant in his letter to the Philippians where he wrote:

Php 2:12
... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling?

Frankly I am confused by some of the things Paul wrote. I have believed that salvation is an unmerited gift from God that we receive by accepting the Lord Jesus as our savior. Admitting our transgressions and being truly repentant for those actions is necessary but beyond that I do not think that any further action or works is required to have salvation. In fact I think it is stressed that those things can NEVER save us. We are to bear fruit in His name and this means spreading the good news and showing mercy and kindness so as to do Him credit but this will be rewarded separately at the Bema seat. Those who have no works will still be saved - though as by fire.... I think those who gain salvation but do not produce will be ashamed in that day.

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My thought: Curious.

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Dying with a clear conscience.

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I believe in following the subject & object when deciding what a scripture means. Paul, is encouraging the followers of christ to keep the faith. He is asking them ""not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.""

followed by an example of Christs behavior...

And finally "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose...."

so the subject seems to be some grumble among the peoples, and Pauls exortation to be like ( follow the example ) christ has let us.

fear is also respect.--know that your soul was not free, it was bought with a price, paid for you on the Crucifix, one death of perfection, once forever, thus fufilling the law. The law called for death for all of the wages of sin. None of us had a chance beloved--Thanks be to God. Please ask me anything you would like to clarify. I would be honored to tryto answer :).

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There are many times I question salvation. Then I realize it is in the afterlife. Some of us are due to suffer. That is all that will come. Salvation means we are saved. It doesn't mean it is easier. It also is a humbling to the presence here on earth. If we are meant to be tortured and destroyed, it will continue to happen because that is our lot. We should bear it with humility and acceptance.

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Some insightful responses so far. :tu:

What about salvation itself, though -- what exactly is salvation? One dictionary defines salvation as follows:

1. the act of saving or protecting from harm, risk, loss, destruction, etc.

2. the state of being saved or protected from harm, risk, etc.

3. a source, cause, or means of being saved or protected from harm, risk, etc.

4. Theology . deliverance from the power and penalty of sin; redemption.

In Point 4, above: that theological definition is extremely vague ... it does not tell us what salvation for Mankind consists of.

Are specific answers available as to what salvation is? Or are there only intangible answers? This discussion could become quite interesting when various views are put forward.

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Theologically, I don't believe in the concept of salvation, mostly because I don't believe in all the other stuff that surrounds it. I am a proponent of self-redemption, however, and in making amends and better choices in the future.

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To me, salvation is not primarily about an afterlife. It is about being saved here and now on the earth as it is today. Being filled with god's spirit, power, mind, and physicla presence, I am already saved from all the ills, hurts, angers, fears, jealousies, lusts hates envies etc that i would other wise face as part of being human. God has saved me through his empowerment feom ALL of those things. I am no longer ever; sad depressed angry jealous envious afraid etc.,

That is true physical salvation. I am never lonely, nor can I be, because I am one with god and the universe and all the entities in it. death holds no dominion despite its existence because I know that my consciousness transcends death, at least in a stored condition. But even if that were not so, death is smiply a natural aspect of being born and living.

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According to the Bible, God’s salvation is meant for people of all nations. However, there are different ideas as to what salvation is, and different ideas as to how and when salvation is obtained.

What is salvation, and what do you think Paul meant in his letter to the Philippians where he wrote:

Php 2:12
... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling?

Great question Karlis.

Paul spoke regarding the Philippians obeying the Gospel and suffering by their opponents. Likely, the opponents were Jews. Paul, understanding the curse of the Law in Deuteronomy 28:15-68, likely meant to say that the fact that they persecuted the Philppians was a clear sign of their imminent destruction.

In this case, salvation was the preservation of a people and their city as well as a justification before God to receive the blessings laid out in the Law in Deuteronomy 28:1-14. I recommend reading Deuteronomy 28.

Paul even stated in Galatians 3:13 that Jesus took the curse of the Law on Himself, even being cursed for hanging from a tree (crucifixion.) So, those who rejected Jesus bore the curse of the Law on themselves. One needs only to read Deuteronomy 27:15-68 and Jewish history after Jerusalem was destroyed to know that the curse of the Law is real and happened to the Jews.

Our grandparents even witnesses the curse, as 6 million Jews were murdered by the Nazis in only a matter of a few years.

Meanwhile, those who refused to return to Judaism but dwelled anong the Gentiles under a new name in Jesus actually enjoyed a rather great amount of success and prosperity, proving Deuteronomy 28:1-14. The penalty for returning back to Judaism would have been to put one's self back under the curse of the Law back then.

In Josephus' The Wars of the Jews, he explained that, before and adter Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, Jews everywhere in the Roman Empire were being persecuted and killed simply because of their relation to the rebels in Judea. Many atrocities, far too much to type on an iphone, happened to the Jews and by the Jews, fulfilling what Jesus said about the Jews and Jerusalem:

"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short." (Matthew 24:21, 22 ESV)

So, while I do not deny the salvation of our souls through Jesus' work on the cross, I also believe that His teachings drew a defining line between Christian and Jew back then, saving the lives and futures of His disciples from destruction by the Roman Empire.

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I see it as a freeing of the mind and material constraints. Free to live without the duality and contrasts. Necessary for physical existence. I tend to think we will all be saved evenchually, just some of us will take longer.

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Quite frankly I never felt I needed to be saved. I mean, from what, exactly? Being alive? Being a human? Having emotions? Making mistakes or not "believing" on command?

We all suffer from time to time be it from our own hands (deliberately or unknowingly) or at the hands of others but we also feel happiness as well (for the same reasons as the afore mentioned).

I do not need to seek redemption or forgiveness for anything.

Humanity in general seems to love this idea of being constantly judged and being punished for the tiniest of deviations so it is not any surprise that this theme repeats itself in its various fantasies and mythologies.

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Quite frankly I never felt I needed to be saved. I mean, from what, exactly? Being alive? Being a human? Having emotions? Making mistakes or not "believing" on command?

We all suffer from time to time be it from our own hands (deliberately or unknowingly) or at the hands of others but we also feel happiness as well (for the same reasons as the afore mentioned).

I do not need to seek redemption or forgiveness for anything.

Humanity in general seems to love this idea of being constantly judged and being punished for the tiniest of deviations so it is not any surprise that this theme repeats itself in its various fantasies and mythologies.

I'm with you, I've never felt I needed to be saved by anyone other than myself. And I'm pretty sure I can save myself if I apply all the experience, knowledge, ethics, and discipline I've acquired, and I'm happy to take on this responsibility. I believe I stand or fall based on my own choices, and any blame or credit belongs to me.

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Quite frankly I never felt I needed to be saved. I mean, from what, exactly? Being alive? Being a human? Having emotions? Making mistakes or not "believing" on command?

We all suffer from time to time be it from our own hands (deliberately or unknowingly) or at the hands of others but we also feel happiness as well (for the same reasons as the afore mentioned).

I do not need to seek redemption or forgiveness for anything.

Humanity in general seems to love this idea of being constantly judged and being punished for the tiniest of deviations so it is not any surprise that this theme repeats itself in its various fantasies and mythologies.

my thoughts exactly

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We don't need to be saved because we were never lost.

The soul's lessons are embedded in our everyday lives and it is holistically imprinted with what it needs to learn regardless of who we are, or where we live, or what we believe.

Art

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Dying with a clear conscience.

i try to go to sleep each night with one. just in case...

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i don't really know what paul was on about in the bible. none of it has anything to do with anything going on in my life anyway.

i was a church going baptist for many years.

i used to believe that salvation came in the form of being 'saved' at church. confessing jesus as one's savior, acknowledging that he died for one's sins and rose again. full immersion baptism etc.

i did it all. i don't regret doing it, it was a really meaningful and important part of my journey spiritually, but i have moved on from there. i no longer feel that fundamentalism is healthy or productive in my life. i no longer will allow a group of people to decide for me or dictate how i will live, how i will love or worship my god.

the promise of salvation is a dangling carrot. do this if you want that. i no longer believe that is the way it is. i now understand that we are all going to the same place when we leave here, wherever that may be

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Quite frankly I never felt I needed to be saved. I mean, from what, exactly? Being alive? Being a human? Having emotions? Making mistakes or not "believing" on command?

We all suffer from time to time be it from our own hands (deliberately or unknowingly) or at the hands of others but we also feel happiness as well (for the same reasons as the afore mentioned).

I do not need to seek redemption or forgiveness for anything.

Humanity in general seems to love this idea of being constantly judged and being punished for the tiniest of deviations so it is not any surprise that this theme repeats itself in its various fantasies and mythologies.

This would be fine, except that most of modern humanity seems to be so depressed that it is on medication, including many pre-adolescents, and suicide is the highest cause of death in people under 40 or so.

Those who aren't depessed are increasingly frustrated, angry, and violent; and also turning to legal and illegal drugs to cope withtheir lives.

That is NOT a functioning society nor a functioning populace, and it is NOT, IMO, how humans are meant to live or should have to live.

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I think there is a huge difference between "salvation" and self-preservation and I think a great many have fallen victim to their fear of damnation and chosen the path of self preservation. When Jesus showed the full measure of the journey toward salvation he did it by submission and humility before his accusers, he meekly walked to his crucifixion and he uttered the most profound secret of salvation "father FORGIVE THEM, they know not what they do".

To me I cannot imagine feeling "saved" if I look (whereever one looks to see those suffering in so called hell) and see others crying in pain, it will be particularly impossible to be in a state of "salvation" if some of those cries could have been prevented by compassion and forgiveness on my part - and if my judgements were a weight on those shoulders? truly we need to consider this - can the paradigm of "salvation" be realised with these matters attached to us? Basically there is a line in the sand which I feel has been crossed and blurred in comprehending what a free and joyous state of being truly is - how can it exist in the poor company of hatreds, vengeances and loathings and hugging our sense of being victims of injustices perpetrated by "guilty" others?

Edited by libstaK
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According to the Bible, God’s salvation is meant for people of all nations. However, there are different ideas as to what salvation is, and different ideas as to how and when salvation is obtained.

What is salvation, and what do you think Paul meant in his letter to the Philippians where he wrote:

Php 2:12
... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling?

Salvation is knowing that our essense or spirit is god, eternal, undying. That says a lot, no doubt. Everything before us is also the expression of God, and made of God. Who said, God is not insane at times? In my life, God is brutal, loving, compassionate, giving, taking -- all of the above. The devil has nothing to do with the ugly side of God. The god in us is also forgiving, understanding, and sometimes, more loving than the abstract God in the Void. Yes, I am "aware" of my "fear and trembling" before the eye of the storm, which is also called God.

About St. Paul. He went through the loss of bodily posture and blindness...and his "thorn in the flesh," which God would not remove. So yes, I believe it's a warning, for God is not always "good," but it's for a reason beyond our scope, I'm sure.

Edited by braveone2u
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The scripture you quoted says to "WORK out your own salvation." But eternal salvation is not by man's works. It is 100% by the blood of Jesus. Therefore, you have a contradiction if you believe they are talking about the same salvation.

Eternal salvation is the gift of grace given from God by the effectual WORKING of HIS power. (Ephesians 3:7) Did you notice His working is effectual? It is not weak. It never fails. So as God works in us His grace; it is up to us to work out that salvation. In other words, it is up to us to read scripture, pray, learn and obey. The obey part is truly a work to show Jesus in us.

So there are two different kinds of salvations in the Bible. The first God does, the second man does with the salvation he/she has already received.

Many times the word "save" is used telling Christians and in the OT, the Jews, to save. It just means deliver and it is talking about in the earthly realm. For instance early in Acts on Pentecost Peter told the 3000 to save themselves from that untoward generation. Their salvation was an earthly salvation from false teachers and priests in Herod's Temple.

The laver in Solomon's Temple held 3000 baths. The laver is a foreshadow of washing by the Word of God. It was no coincidence that 3000 got baptized.

God bless us all is my prayer.

Edited by Copen

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The scripture you quoted says to "WORK out your own salvation." But eternal salvation is not by man's works. It is 100% by the blood of Jesus. Therefore, you have a contradiction if you believe they are talking about the same salvation.

Hi Copen -- I don't think there is a contradiction in the phrase, "work out your own salvation". I'm not sure, but perhaps you may be "reading work/s into this Scripture". What I mean is, if one is to "work out" the meaning of this Scripture, what kind of *work* is involved? And that, I think, agrees with what you write in the next paragraph; it is up to us to work out that salvation.

Eternal salvation is the gift of grace given from God by the effectual WORKING of HIS power. (Ephesians 3:7) Did you notice His working is effectual? It is not weak. It never fails. So as God works in us His grace; it is up to us to work out that salvation. In other words, it is up to us to read scripture, pray, learn and obey. The obey part is truly a work to show Jesus in us.

So there are two different kinds of salvations in the Bible. The first God does, the second man does with the salvation he/she has already received.

Many times the word "save" is used telling Christians and in the OT, the Jews, to save. It just means deliver and it is talking about in the earthly realm. For instance early in Acts on Pentecost Peter told the 3000 to save themselves from that untoward generation. Their salvation was an earthly salvation from false teachers and priests in Herod's Temple.

The laver in Solomon's Temple held 3000 baths. The laver is a foreshadow of washing by the Word of God. It was no coincidence that 3000 got baptized.

God bless us all is my prayer.

I agree with you that there are at least two forms of salvation. In this thread I'm looking at Scriptures about salvation to immortality. What does that salvation mean to Mankind?

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Salvation is not Yesterday or Tomorrow ..We can read in the book of corinthians Paul Said: Today is the Time of Salvation.How to know that we obtained this so called salvation thing.And we will know that we obtained salvation through our faith..

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Hi Copen -- I don't think there is a contradiction in the phrase, "work out your own salvation". I'm not sure, but perhaps you may be "reading work/s into this Scripture". What I mean is, if one is to "work out" the meaning of this Scripture, what kind of *work* is involved? And that, I think, agrees with what you write in the next paragraph; it is up to us to work out that salvation.

I agree with you that there are at least two forms of salvation. In this thread I'm looking at Scriptures about salvation to immortality. What does that salvation mean to Mankind?

The natural man receiveth not the spiritual things of God; neither can he KNOW them. They are spiritually discerned. ( I Cor. 2: 14) If a natural unsaved man cannot not receive or desire to know in order to choose to receive ---- then the man that wants God and wants to know anything about spiritual things has proof that God has already changed that person into a spiritual being and is no longer a natural man. It is not of works least any man boast that he was smart enough or lucky enough to believe. Believing is the evidence he already has spiritual life for the natural man cannot believe.

God bless

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The natural man receiveth not the spiritual things of God; neither can he KNOW them. They are spiritually discerned. ( I Cor. 2: 14) If a natural unsaved man cannot not receive or desire to know in order to choose to receive ---- then the man that wants God and wants to know anything about spiritual things has proof that God has already changed that person into a spiritual being and is no longer a natural man. It is not of works least any man boast that he was smart enough or lucky enough to believe. Believing is the evidence he already has spiritual life for the natural man cannot believe.

God bless

I'm not sure, but are you saying that Mankind is incapable of understanding Scriptures about Mankind's future salvation -- aka being granted immortality?

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