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Still Waters

Gay marriage 'to be illegal'

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I, too, observe what they do. I have observed that what they say they do changes with time. Only now I'm told, by you, that nope, change for them is a myth.

This is what I think they call. Moving the goal posts. You have completely changed your discussion. Because you realize that were not making sense. You personally wanting them to change over time. You say you don't want immediate change anyway. You recognize that futility. If so, you should have no issue with the OP. The entire line of discussion has been filled. With your double speak. At least admit that it makes no sense for you to feel outraged. That they want to protect themselves. From being forced to perform gay weddings.

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I'm not on a high horse. Just stating facts.

A few examples. The church was among the last to give up slaves and used the bible as an excuse to keep them. The church fought against interacial marriage. The church has had long standing issues with women. This topic shows it still has issues with gay people.

Putting religion with those groups is like locking a bunch of sheep in a pen and tossing a wolf in with them.

How is giving religion the same rights it has now, just putting them seperate from other people's rights punishment exactly? Personally I just want to keep the wolf away from the sheep.

Why are all your anti-Christain arguments historical?

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This is what I think they call. Moving the goal posts. You have completely changed your discussion. Because you realize that were not making sense. You personally wanting them to change over time. You say you don't want immediate change anyway. You recognize that futility. If so, you should have no issue with the OP. The entire line of discussion has been filled. With your double speak. At least admit that it makes no sense for you to feel outraged. That they want to protect themselves. From being forced to perform gay weddings.

I too have noticed this.

If the guy is so desperate to wear a frock theres plenty of womens clothing shops about lol

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This is what I think they call. Moving the goal posts. You have completely changed your discussion. Because you realize that were not making sense. You personally wanting them to change over time. You say you don't want immediate change anyway. You recognize that futility. If so, you should have no issue with the OP. The entire line of discussion has been filled. With your double speak. At least admit that it makes no sense for you to feel outraged. That they want to protect themselves. From being forced to perform gay weddings.

What I want: Religions to change over time.

What I dont want: To force them to change

What you think I want: To force them to change right now.

What I see happening: Change possible in the future.

Right. To the OP I will bullet point this, which is the timeline for the law.

1: The government announces its looking into introducing same sex civil marriage. It says that NO church will be forced to do it. In fact, no church will be allowed to either.

2: The catholic and church of England (and, yes, Jews and Muslims) imidiately say that no same sex marriage should be allowed: even civil ones.

3: Smaller, more liberal religious organisations make their voice heard. They want to perform religious same sex marriages.

4: The government confirms it's looking into HOW not IF it will be introducing same sex amrriage. It also makes it clear that no church will be forced into doing it.

5: The catholic church and church of england complain again. They still don't want ANY same sex marriage. They also say they'll be forced, even though the government has said they won't be.

6: The government makes this announcemet, the one in the op. It confirms that they'll bring in same sex civil marriage, please an opt in for every religion bar the church of england (where instead, it will be banned) .

Every step of the way, the government have said that the church won't be forced to do a thing. Every time they have (until now) the church have ignored that.

Like I have said, they have already got protections in place. They do not have to perform hetrosexual weddings if they don't agree with it. Personally, the law they had to cover that was more than adequete to protect them. After all, it's been adequte enough to protect them from being sued by hetrosexuals (when have you heard of a hetrosexual suing the church to get married and winning?) so why do they need the quadruple lock that they do now? Personally it all just seems redundant. I also think that the church of england being banned outright (without the option to opt in like everyone else) is heavy handed and wrong.

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That is a more liberal interpretation of Christianity. You don't get to dictate what it means to be Christian. It's not just what Jesus said. It is also what God said. I am probably more liberal. But I don't deny the right of those who are more conservative. To believe what they do. And to do otherwise is bigoted and disrespectful. No matter how much you try to hide behind. Self righteousness.

With all due respect my Christian sister if you aren't gay you don't know what it means to be gay. Check out some of the stories of gay Christians trying to get exorcisms, marrying the opposite sex, fighting against their own sexuality in the name of god.. The results aren't good, they either go back to being gay, become suicidal or are living a lie. Or is Gay the name of a devil that posesses some. You have been taught that, but everything you've been taught is not correct. Do you believe in slavery? The bible makes it ok to own slaves when conceived in a certain perspective.

God made gay people, and believe it or not he made them gay. You just can't understand this because it is outside of your realm of vision.

That is not to say that all homosexually acting/participating people are gay, there are a percent that are lost, just like the rest of us are lost in certain ways...

Christianity IS defined by the believer, and that is why there are different sects and divisions within the church, you cannot expect all Christians to be trapped in your world... Religion does change and many churches and preachers are coming to terms with the fact that people are naturally gay.... You can no longer say that it is against christianity to be gay, well you can say it, but not everyone will take you seriously. The rejection of gay ppl turned many against god, that is the fault of the church and what they perpetrate, this is changing whether you like it or not.

much love in Christ

Edited by SpiritWriter
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Why are all your anti-Christain arguments historical?

Out of those I bought up, only one is historical. Interacial marriage hasn't been legal for a long time. Gay rights haven't been around for less. Women's rights are the oldest of the three, but still fairly young. All of those are under a century old as a serious movement. All three were impeded before that time (and in some cases, still are) by religion because 'the bible says so'.

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It seems pretty obvious to me. That the concern about gay marriage. In the Church. Is that they can be sued for refusing to perform. A gay wedding. So they want to have a protection built into the law. How this has you twisted with rage? I do not know. What they did is a legitimate move. They protected themselves. They protected their faith. You don't believe in God. You wouldn't go to their church. To get married anyway. So why does this even concern you? Other churches can opt in. So it's not the law of the land. This is a responsible move. There's no reason to be upset with it at all.

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With all due respect my Christian sister if you aren't gay you don't know what it means to be gay. Check out some of the stories of gay Christians trying to get exorcisms, marrying the opposite sex, fighting against their own sexuality in the name of god.. The results aren't good, they either go back to being gay, become suicidal or are living a lie. Gay the name of a devil that posesses some. You have been taught that, but everything you've been taught is not correct. Do you believe in slavery? The bible makes it ok to own slaves....

God made gay people, and believe it or not he made them gay. You just can't understand this because it is outside of your realm of vision.

Christianity IS defined by the believer, and that is why there are different sects and divisions within the church, you cannot expect all Christians to be trapped in your world... Religion does change and many churches and preachers are coming to terms with the fact that people are naturally gay.... You can no longer say that it is against christianity to be gay, well you can say it, but not everyone will take you seriously. The rejection of gay ppl turned many against god, that is the fault of the church and what they perpetrate, this is changing whether you like it or not.

much love in Christ

This is a debate on homosexuality. I do not disagree with you. But the OP is about The Church of England, The Church of Wales and. By extension the Catholic Church not being forced to perform gay weddings. Please notice that a discussion about. Homosexuality. Is not the same thing as a discussion about performing. Gay Weddings in a church. They are very different topics.

Peace to you too my Christian sister. :)

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It seems pretty obvious to me. That the concern about gay marriage. In the Church. Is that they can be sued for refusing to perform. A gay wedding. So they want to have a protection built into the law. How this has you twisted with rage? I do not know. What they did is a legitimate move. They protected themselves. They protected their faith. You don't believe in God. You wouldn't go to their church. To get married anyway. So why does this even concern you? Other churches can opt in. So it's not the law of the land. This is a responsible move. There's no reason to be upset with it at all.

It seems pretty obvious to me that they couldn't be sued from the get go, since they can't be sued for not marrying any straight couple. They didn't need the extra protection for something they already have.

The church is effectively being like someone on a motorbike. They are already wearing the helmet for protection, yet for some reason they want a second helmet on top of it. they already have the first, which gives them all the protection that they require, yet they still want the second, even though it's obviously unecessary.

What get's me most angry, though, is that when same sex marriage laws were first mentioned they wanted NO ONE to be able to perform same sex marriage. This was not out of protection or fear of getting forced. That made me very upset and angry, that they thought they could stop anyone from getting married just to get their way.

Edited by shadowhive

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With all due respect my Christian sister if you aren't gay you don't know what it means to be gay. Check out some of the stories of gay Christians trying to get exorcisms, marrying the opposite sex, fighting against their own sexuality in the name of god.. The results aren't good, they either go back to being gay, become suicidal or are living a lie. Gay the name of a devil that posesses some. You have been taught that, but everything you've been taught is not correct. Do you believe in slavery? The bible makes it ok to own slaves....

God made gay people, and believe it or not he made them gay. You just can't understand this because it is outside of your realm of vision.

Christianity IS defined by the believer, and that is why there are different sects and divisions within the church, you cannot expect all Christians to be trapped in your world... Religion does change and many churches and preachers are coming to terms with the fact that people are naturally gay.... You can no longer say that it is against christianity to be gay, well you can say it, but not everyone will take you seriously. The rejection of gay ppl turned many against god, that is the fault of the church and what they perpetrate, this is changing whether you like it or not.

much love in Christ

God didnt make people gay they decided they wanted to be.

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God didnt make people gay they decided they wanted to be.

That's hardly true.

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The rejection of gay ppl turned many against god, that is the fault of the church and what they perpetrate, this is changing whether you like it or not.

You're right with all your post, especially that. It's certainly put me off christianity for life.

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why do you think a lot of gay people don't believe in god, do you think it's because gods not real, do you think it's because they are gay and they just can't quit being gay for long enough to believe just like the drug addict, the adulterer etc, or do you think it's because the church pushed them away?

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This is a debate on homosexuality. I do not disagree with you. But the OP is about The Church of England, The Church of Wales and. By extension the Catholic Church not being forced to perform gay weddings. Please notice that a discussion about. Homosexuality. Is not the same thing as a discussion about performing. Gay Weddings in a church. They are very different topics.

Peace to you too my Christian sister. :)

I do agree that A church in particular who doesn't agree with something shouldn't be forced to do so, but, I can see both sides.... That suing brings out in the open that they are bigoted, and that since there is a movement, ppl will take their stance and fight, dispite the fact that the natural instinct would be to go to another church that accepts them..

But I was actually responding to the fact that you said that an individual doesn't get to describe what Christianity is. I don't agree with that. I do define my own Christianity...

Edited by SpiritWriter

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You're right with all your post, especially that. It's certainly put me off christianity for life.

Sorry, :( on behalf of the church I apologize... It is a shame... I will not start preaching here but I should....

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Sorry, :( on behalf of the church I apologize... It is a shame... I will not start preaching here but I should....

It's ok. I've lived a better life than some and at least I wasn't in a position to get victimised by the church and it's teachings (like those mentioned in your post).

I never believed in the whole Jesus thing to begin with and the way other christians treat gay people, how shamefully they do it and how openly they do... well, its made me firmly reject it. Why would I want to be part of it? Even a liberal one still bases it's teachings on the same thing that harms so many. I don't want to be associated with it at all.

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Thats how its starts

Irony you posting a picture with a nazi swatchka

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It's ok. I've lived a better life than some and at least I wasn't in a position to get victimised by the church and it's teachings (like those mentioned in your post).

I never believed in the whole Jesus thing to begin with and the way other christians treat gay people, how shamefully they do it and how openly they do... well, its made me firmly reject it. Why would I want to be part of it? Even a liberal one still bases it's teachings on the same thing that harms so many. I don't want to be associated with it at all.

It hasn't harmed me, well actually that's not true it has harmed me, but knowing god has enriched me... But it's all good, I respect your position.

Edited by SpiritWriter
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I do agree that A church in particular who doesn't agree with something shouldn't be forced to do so, but, I can see both sides.... That suing brings out in the open that they are bigoted, and that since there is a movement, ppl will take their stance and fight, dispite the fact that the natural instinct would be to go to another church that accepts them..

But I was actually responding to the fact that you said that an individual doesn't get to describe what Christianity is. I don't agree with that. I do define my own Christianity...

An individual doesn't get to describe what Christianity is for everyone else. You can only do so for yourself. JGirl sitting here saying "That is the definition of Christianity" is foolish. As you say. We define our own beliefs. The more organized churches will do so in a more rigid way. But JGirl can't deny their version because she has a different one. That is silly.

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It hasn't harmed me, well actually that's not true it has harmed me, but knowing god has enriched me... But it's all good, I respect your position.

I often wonder that. Why is knowing god so important? What is it about that which makes people become liable to forget basic compassion, empathy and love?

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An individual doesn't get to describe what Christianity is for everyone else. You can only do so for yourself. JGirl sitting here saying "That is the definition of Christianity" is foolish. As you say. We define our own beliefs. The more organized churches will do so in a more rigid way. But JGirl can't deny their version because she has a different one. That is silly.

That's what I don't like about more rigid churches I hate people telling me what I have to believe when I know god for myself... They preach to listen for the voice of god but when you hear it they tell you your wrong because it didn't come out of the bible or the mouth of the pastor....

The church teaches anti-gay, but more criminally it also takes god away from the people, it confines him to a hierarchy that's impossible to climb.

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I often wonder that. Why is knowing god so important? What is it about that which makes people become liable to forget basic compassion, empathy and love?

Christianity does not teach rejection to compassion, empathy and love, it rather encourages it most exuberantly, you cannot see this side of it because of the starkness of the rejection of homosexuality. In truth, although it may seem that a Christian is hateful toward gays (and indeed some of them are, but who of us has been able to cast off all hatred?) but actually they regard homosexuality as a sin, they do not hate the person, but think they need to repent and be saved, since they are not gay, they think it's something that can be controlled....

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I often wonder that. Why is knowing god so important? What is it about that which makes people become liable to forget basic compassion, empathy and love?

Getting close to god is a very powerful thing... Because of that power, many get confused and begin to think that in order to stay in that power they have to follow strictly to a higher teaching.. This does wonders for discipline and miraculous change but it also makes one vulnerable to cult like mentality where you will believe severly and belief in my opinion is geared to the wrong thing... The teachings of man, and manipulated religion, instead of the inner teachings of god... It's very deep.... Can't be all surmised here, but knowing god is very important for believers.

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Getting close to god is a very powerful thing... Because of that power, many get confused and begin to think that in order to stay in that power they have to follow strictly to a higher teaching.. This does wonders for discipline and miraculous change but it also makes one vulnerable to cult like mentality where you will believe severly and belief in my opinion is geared to the wrong thing... The teachings of man, and manipulated religion, instead of the inner teachings of god... It's very deep.... Can't be all surmised here, but knowing god is very important for believers.

Well said. I do notice an inner peace with you SpiritWriter. You can see God at world. The sad cold miserable experience of shadowhive. Shows the difference God makes in our lives.

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Well said. I do notice an inner peace with you SpiritWriter. You can see God at world. The sad cold miserable experience of shadowhive. Shows the difference God makes in our lives.

Yes I have had miserable experiences due to believers, but my life is far from sad, cold and miserable. I do not have a book that tells me every thought that crosses my mind is a sin. I don't need to repent every five seconds. I don't see those things and thing 'damn I'm missing out!' I just feel sorry for people that see sin everywhere and just can't live their lives.

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