Secret Caves under the Pyramids

[Harte]

The Bible was written by mere humans.

And we DID see germs, with the use of a microscope.

Science evolves, based on the latest findings.

Religion never evolves.

The above is an example of what I was talking about.

A poster claimed no one has ever seen a germ - a verifiably false claim.

Now, if she had stated that germs might have feelings, or intelligence, or even babysitters, there could be no debunking.

Harte

[Abramelin]

The above is an example of what I was talking about.

A poster claimed no one has ever seen a germ - a verifiably false claim.

Now, if she had stated that germs might have feelings, or intelligence, or even babysitters, there could be no debunking.

Harte

I think we should be easy on Me-wonders.

She has her ideas that she loves, and we have our own.

But it appears to me "Me-wonders" didn't do a lot of investigating.

[Harte]

I think we should be easy on Me-wonders.

She has her ideas that she loves, and we have our own.

But it appears to me "Me-wonders" didn't do a lot of investigating.

My post in response to her was probably the gentlest I've ever been in this forum!

Harte

[questionmark]

My post in response to her was probably the gentlest I've ever been in this forum!

Harte

How was that signature of Jaylemurph again: history is not for sissies? Wonder what became of him.

[Abramelin]

My post in response to her was probably the gentlest I've ever been in this forum!

Harte

It's kind of hard to be gentle and poilite on those who start posting, and obviously never did perform anything resembling research.

.

[Abramelin]

How was that signature of Jaylemurph again: history is not for sissies? Wonder what became of him.

I am starting to get afraid of his health.

I really DO hope Jaylemurph is ok.

.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Abramelin

[TheSearcher]

Wow I came back to see the thread and low and behold one person banned and another wanting to leave. The former correctly so and the other a shame because I didn't see anybody attacking her. I know discussion can be rather lively, but it wasn't THAT bad.

And Abe, if I'm any example, he could just have taken some time off. Having said this I do hope he is ok.

Edited January 5, 2013 by TheSearcher

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Being as dogmatic as the church, is not being scientific. It is being foolish. Science is not limited to what we know, but a process for discovering what we do not know.

True. We have dogma in science too. Sad but true.

[TheSearcher]

True. We have dogma in science too. Sad but true.

Nooo not dogma, scientific method. Also rigorous research and examination, those are the cornerstones of science. There are definitions and facts and then there are suppositions and assumptions, sorry if some of us prefer the former to the latter.

[cladking]

Science is not limited to what we know, but a process for discovering what we do not know.

I left this bolded because it's a concept few comprehend because few ever study metaphysics.

Science is a striving toward ignorance but people get comfortable with mass production and an

easy chair and think of science as the font of all good so it must be the source of all knowledge.

This is wrong. Everything learned by science always creates two new questions as it solves at

least one old mystery.

If it weren't for this simple metaphysic we wouldn't know orthodox Egyptology is wrong about ev-

ery single thing and there are caves under the pyramids.

If it weren't for ignorance we'd know nothing at all. If it weren't for the stupendous ignorance of

those who were not barefoot bumpkins, there would be no pyramids and no mysteries associated

with them. If it weren't for experiential knowledge there'd be no pyramids.

How appropriate we don't know how they were made yet we have all the answers. Sometimes the

world just makes perfect sense.

[cladking]

I'm sorry to see LRW got the boot.

I keep seeing a theme running through the thread today that peo[ple expect "science" to give

them answers but this is an absurdity because science never really provides answers. One might

say it provides understanding, but this understanding is necessarily predicated on understanding

both the metaphysics and the details of the experiment that led to the new knowledge. Even our

best trained scientists normally don't have this sort of experience in undersytanding science and

its results unless they taught themselves. Sure the books you need to understand are on the sylabus

but few students read all the books and fewer understand such things thoroughly.

This isn't to say all our scientists are superstitious bumpkins but when you read some of their pro-

nouncements it's obvious most of them at least tend that way.

While I don't understand LRW's vehemence concerning the dating system, his point is still valid that

all people are colored by their place and time and this coloring includes numerous religious overtones.

One trie to step out of his place and time to see other realities or perspctives but no matter how good

you are at this you always take at least some baggage with you. One thinks in "language" or at the

very least language like concepts and takes this with them everywhere the mind goes. I never liked

BC/ AD either because I never was a fan of religion but people need words to communicate and in

order to talk about anything more than 2012 PB one needs a term. I was brought up in a parochial

school with 1890's ideas and my own personal concept that changing language for trivial reasons is

evil. Hence I don't intend to change something that has always worked. To each his own is the prin-

ciple by which I interact with people.

I know I've said more than enough but I believe it warranted saying.

[TheSearcher]

I think LRW got booted because of his incessant Christian bashing and his linking everything and everyone to what he called Christendom even if this wasn't in the slightest correct.

Edited January 5, 2013 by TheSearcher

[kmt_sesh]

Let's avoid commenting on why or how a poster was banned from the forum. Trust that it was earned and was for the betterment of the forum in general. I should think that is obvious. Now that we can return to a calmer and more level-headed discussion, let's return to the proper spirit of debate.

Thanks.

[Abramelin]

Wow I came back to see the thread and low and behold one person banned and another wanting to leave. The former correctly so and the other a shame because I didn't see anybody attacking her. I know discussion can be rather lively, but it wasn't THAT bad.

And Abe, if I'm any example, he could just have taken some time off. Having said this I do hope he is ok.

I remember him saying, a long time ago, that there was something the matter with his health.

I even remember I asked him something like, 'What do you mean? Cardiovascular??'

[Abramelin]

I think LRW got booted because of his incessant Christian bashing and his linking everything and everyone to what he called Christendom even if this wasn't in the slightest correct.

LRW was nothing but a pain in the rear, and his only goal was to get attention by p***ing people off.

He survived here much longer than he would have on my own site.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Nooo not dogma, scientific method.

Never heard about term Scientific dogma?

There are many scientific dogma.

Edited January 6, 2013 by the L

[+DieChecker]

Isn't the Great Pyramid massive enough to crush any "caves" close underneath?

Well since mountains don't crush the caves inside them, I'd generally go with no.

Hel is Norse goddess of underworld, our word Hell is from the Norse. Europeans did not have a hell as a place of eternal punishment. In Norse you went to Valhalla if a brave warrior, or the underworld for everybody else. Certainly there was punishment for some, usually in Greek mythology, but it did not take place in what we call Hell. This misuse of Hel is a proof of how early Christians warped and twisted the old religions in order to impose the new religion and make everything in the old religions seem evil. I thought this would be common knowledge.....

Depending on the Translation you are reading the Bible also speaks of Hades and Tartarus. Both Greek hells. It would seem a lot more likely to me, since English comes from Proto-Norse/German, that the Christians word "Hell" came from translating the work into English, which would have had a similar place/word in Hel, or Niflehel/Niflheim, one of the nine worlds of the Pagan Norse mythology. Thus, Hell is a pagan word, not a Christian word, in origin

I really DO hope Jaylemurph is ok.

Din't he disappear (Off the forums) last summer? Maybe the Bassets finally got 'em?

[cladking]

"Isn't the Great Pyramid massive enough to crush any "caves" close underneath?"

Weight in a system is deflected away and around any voids in it. Nature imposes very

strict rules about a distance that can be spanned by any material but very low limits on

the ability of a spanned area to be buried. Huge voids can exist under the earth but if

they erode away too much the entire area/ region will collapse. These are called "sink-

holes" and can be quite large.

[cormac mac airt]

Well since mountains don't crush the caves inside them, I'd generally go with no.

Depending on the Translation you are reading the Bible also speaks of Hades and Tartarus. Both Greek hells. It would seem a lot more likely to me, since English comes from Proto-Norse/German, that the Christians word "Hell" came from translating the work into English, which would have had a similar place/word in Hel, or Niflehel/Niflheim, one of the nine worlds of the Pagan Norse mythology. Thus, Hell is a pagan word, not a Christian word, in origin

Din't he disappear (Off the forums) last summer? Maybe the Bassets finally got 'em?

In Hebrew the name used was "Sheol", which was also NOT a place of eternal punishment like the Christian Hell.

cormac

[kmt_sesh]

Cranial deformation like you mention occurs since quite a long time and was practiced all over the world. For example, early examples of intentional human cranial deformation predate written history and date back to 45,000 BC in Neanderthal skulls, and to the Proto-Neolithic Homo sapiens. (ref. here) The earliest written record of cranial deformation, that I am aware of, dates to 400 BC in Hippocrates' description of the Macrocephali or Long-heads, who were named for their practice of cranial modification (ref. : Hippocrates upon Air, Water, and Situation: upon Epidemical Diseases).

As to the why of Cranial deformation, well it was probably performed to signify group affiliation, or to demonstrate social status. It could also be aimed at creating a skull shape, which is aesthetically more pleasing or has more desirable attributes that way (ref. Gerszten and Gerszten, 1995)

For example, if memory serves, in the Nahai-speaking area of Tomman Island and the south south-western Malakulan (Australasia), a person with an elongated head is thought to be more intelligent, of higher status and closer to the world of the spirits. In Mayan society it was a matter of social status as well.

I like the description you've provided. One thing where we always must take care is using our own culture's beliefs and practices when we attempt to evaluate the practices of a very different culture. In other words, avoid doing it. If we cannot try to see a different culture from its own perspective but must insist on forcing our ideas and beliefs onto it, then we fail from the get-go.

Deformation of body parts can indeed be reflective of one's social status within a group, and such deformation might well be considered attractive or beautiful by the people of that culture. This might well describe the cranial deformations conducted by ancient Peruvians and certain tribes in the central Sahara of Africa, the lip plugs of the Mursi and Tirma peoples of Africa, the neck rings of the Kayan people of Burma and Thailand, and the foot binding in China.

These are cultural practices of intrinsic beauty to such people, and it's little more than that. All of this deformation looks quite odd to me, as an American, but my perspective as an American is irrelevant to these cultures. It's more important that I (and others) try to understand how those cultures viewed such practices. Aliens need not be considered.

[kmt_sesh]

In Hebrew the name used was "Sheol", which was also NOT a place of eternal punishment like the Christian Hell.

cormac

To add, I think the most salient point in your post is the modifier Christian Hell. The Hell as we've come to understand it does appear to have reached its fullest form as an eternal place of torment for sinners in the Christian tradition. The original Hebrew concept of the afterlife was much less defined. "Sheol" was a place where all deceased were meant to go, which was similar in nature to the afterlives of Mesopotamians and Greeks and others. Even the Egyptians, as elaborate and sophisticated as their afterlife concepts were, did not envision an eternal hell, at least for mortals. Their greatest fear was the destruction of the soul followed by eternal nonexistence.

Of all ancient Near Eastern traditions, the religion that possessed something akin to the Christian Hell was Zoroastrianism. I've always held that this religion of Persia had profound effects on the developments of later Judaism and, by extension, Christianity.

One thing that's important to consider is that the Bibles many of us Christians have read are not direct translations from ancient Hebrew or Aramaic but from Greek. Christianity's original language was mainly Greek. It was in Alexandria that Ptolemy is supposed to have commissioned a full Greek translation of the Old Testament, and this translation came down to us as the Septuagint. The New Testament appended to the Old Testament in early Christian traditions was originally also written in Greek. It was the scholars of the Septuagint who struggled with translating Hebrew into Greek, and some notable idiosyncrasies resulted in the translation process. A properly trained biblical scholar can point out those instances in which the Greek translations wandered away from the original Hebrew version of the Old Testament. It's actually kind of interesting.

I did some quick etymological reviews of the word "hell" and what I saw is that it came into English from a Germanic origin (e.g., Hölle). The ultimate origin appears to be an Indo-European root meaning "to cover, to hide."

I'm in a wordy mood tonight so perhaps I ought to shut up now.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Depending on the Translation you are reading the Bible also speaks of Hades and Tartarus. Both Greek hells. It would seem a lot more likely to me, since English comes from Proto-Norse/German, that the Christians word "Hell" came from translating the work into English, which would have had a similar place/word in Hel, or Niflehel/Niflheim, one of the nine worlds of the Pagan Norse mythology. Thus, Hell is a pagan word, not a Christian word, in origin

This of course will vary from culture to culture and missionaries would have adapted the way their message was delivered to suit local traditions. No Hell in my bible, it is Ад (Ad) which comes from Greek Ἅδης. So Russian Hell is Hades. Some say it is Perm.......

Edited January 6, 2013 by Atentutankh-pasheri

[dreamland]

kmt_sesh i am surprised that you or administrator even allow to talk on different subjects. What you guys talking about is completely off-topic which should be " Secret Caves under Pyramids". This is like starting topic about egyptians and then talking about mayans. I am sure that for many this is very annoying and should in my opinion add or change your rules. You guys started talking about religion and staff... and you should talk about it in :

Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs

Friendly discussion on religion and spirituality

Anyways..let's go back to my topic.. I was reading something interesting about the cave system discovered by explorer

Henry Salt. This article is from Andrew Collins website :

After exploring a crack in the rock, Salt and Caviglia unexpectedly found themselves peering inside a chasm-like chamber, partly hewn, partly natural, which opened up into a maze of subterranean passages. After traveling for a distance of some several hundred yards, the two men chanced upon a spacious chamber that linked to three other chambers of equal size, from which went various 'labyrinthick' passages. Salt left Caviglia to explore one of them, he having become bored by these empty corridors and chambers. The Italian followed one for a distance of 300 feet before giving up, having found no obvious antiquities.

What is interesting for me,is that Both DR Hawass and his team,and also Andrew Collins never found some spacious chamber that linked to three other chamber and they never went that far. In my opinion,there must be something,but they missed just like Andrew Collins who found this opening to the caves by accident.

[questionmark]

kmt_sesh i am surprised that you or administrator even allow to talk on different subjects. What you guys talking about is completely off-topic which should be " Secret Caves under Pyramids". This is like starting topic about egyptians and then talking about mayans. I am sure that for many this is very annoying and should in my opinion add or change your rules. You guys started talking about religion and staff... and you should talk about it in :

Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs

Friendly discussion on religion and spirituality

Anyways..let's go back to my topic.. I was reading something interesting about the cave system discovered by explorer

Henry Salt. This article is from Andrew Collins website :

After exploring a crack in the rock, Salt and Caviglia unexpectedly found themselves peering inside a chasm-like chamber, partly hewn, partly natural, which opened up into a maze of subterranean passages. After traveling for a distance of some several hundred yards, the two men chanced upon a spacious chamber that linked to three other chambers of equal size, from which went various 'labyrinthick' passages. Salt left Caviglia to explore one of them, he having become bored by these empty corridors and chambers. The Italian followed one for a distance of 300 feet before giving up, having found no obvious antiquities.

What is interesting for me,is that Both DR Hawass and his team,and also Andrew Collins never found some spacious chamber that linked to three other chamber and they never went that far. In my opinion,there must be something,but they missed just like Andrew Collins who found this opening to the caves by accident.

If you are talking about Colin's IR video: That is a fake. What he found is a known small cave located at the far end of a known and charted tomb including a small cave and that in 1934. That is why the video got colored (which is evident when you look at it examining the lights).

[cladking]

It's only natural for the topic to drift in a conversation. Anyone can always steer it back.

What is interesting for me,is that Both DR Hawass and his team,and also Andrew Collins never found some spacious chamber that linked to three other chamber and they never went that far. In my opinion,there must be something,but they missed just like Andrew Collins who found this opening to the caves by accident.

Yes. It doesn't require a great deal of elapsed time for hundreds of thousands of bats to com-

pletely redecorate their living quarters. They excrete thousands of tons of guano annually and

if I'm right that they intentionally deposit it to choke off caves then it can be a very rapid process.

These caves need explorinng but the powers that be have a very long list of things they are ig-

noring so it might take years to get around to specifically ignoring this one.