Secret Caves under the Pyramids

[cladking]

Ignore the remains of ramps that have been found at Giza, IOW. Then (and only then) can this makle any sense at all.

The question has never been how did they get the stones to the pyramid site.

The question is how did they get the stones up the pyramid. They did not must have used ramps.

[cladking]

Question: The picture is colored. Do we have to totally ignore the actual values of the scan which determined those lines?

You realize the lines are arbarary? They represent gradiants of density values, and are not Hard Lines, but to indicate general density. Like terrain lines on a map indicating the height of various features, the lines are benchmarks of density, not hard physical lines.

In order for your idea to work, the density measurements (colors) have to be ignored. And if you are going to ignore those then the whole map is meaningless. Like seeing the face of Jesus in a piece of toast.

I took 20 minutes and did just that. And guess what? I drew the lines all the way across the scan to the paper edges and measured where the lines left the scan, and..... none of the lines I drew were parallel. And most of them were angled at a slight angle. Some near the base were a little wider in a clockwise manner, but the much greater majority of lines showed a greater angling toward the counter-clock-wise direction.

I just don't see what you do apparently.

I think it is because they don't want their work being misrepresented.....

He has drawn in a black line in between each of the color bands. It's possible these black lines are

an artefact of the process but this is improbable due to the nature of the equipment that was used and

the pyramid. In any case the black lines exist and each end of most of these black lines are parallel

to the base of the pyramid. This is simply a fact. Even if you include the haphazard lines where den-

sity changes on an individual step and are too steep to possibly be ramps most of the lines are still

parallel to the base and can't be ramps by definition. They aren't ramps and can not represent ramps.

Lines parallel to the base CAN'T possibly be ramps.

[cladking]

Wood on stone wears the wood down incredibly fast. This is rough stone, right? Or, did they have a mirror finished stone deliverly ramp up the side of the pyramid? Take an average piece of wood and run it back and forth over a concrete sidewalk llike 200 times and see how much wood gets worn off.

Wood has been used since time immemorial to build things. Yes, it does wear but if you

grease it and don't put more weight on it than it can easily support it simply won't wear very

quickly. It certainly wouldn't fall apart as fast as the rollers Egyptology wants to put under

the sleds being dragged up ramps. If a runner wore out on the counterweight they'd simply

have to swap it out for a new runner. It's a lot easier than dragging 2 1/2 million stones up

non-existent (unevidenced) ramps.

[dreamland]

I found this old video on youtube...whats your opinion ?

[media=]

[/media] Edited February 28, 2013 by dreamland

[+DieChecker]

He has drawn in a black line in between each of the color bands. It's possible these black lines are

an artefact of the process but this is improbable due to the nature of the equipment that was used and

the pyramid. In any case the black lines exist and each end of most of these black lines are parallel

to the base of the pyramid. This is simply a fact. Even if you include the haphazard lines where den-

sity changes on an individual step and are too steep to possibly be ramps most of the lines are still

parallel to the base and can't be ramps by definition. They aren't ramps and can not represent ramps.

Lines parallel to the base CAN'T possibly be ramps.

The black lines are simply where the arbitrary density ranges selected pass into the next range catagory. They could imply physical structures, but the density on each side of the line CAN NOT be ignored.

The only parallel lines I found on the scan were very short lines and lines at the base.

Is it illegal to take the drawing and make a rough copy to illustrate a point? I think only that exact image is Copyrighted. If I have time this weekend, I will take some copy paper and a graph pad and see what I can make of it.

My point is still firm that most of the lines I drew showed an inward angling in a counterclockwise fashion.

[+DieChecker]

Wood has been used since time immemorial to build things. Yes, it does wear but if you

grease it and don't put more weight on it than it can easily support it simply won't wear very

quickly. It certainly wouldn't fall apart as fast as the rollers Egyptology wants to put under

the sleds being dragged up ramps. If a runner wore out on the counterweight they'd simply

have to swap it out for a new runner. It's a lot easier than dragging 2 1/2 million stones up

non-existent (unevidenced) ramps.

Possible, but that is going to be an Awful lot of maintenance. And all that wood is going to have to imported. And it ain't goin' to be cheap. You're looking at probably adding like 50% to the cost of the project, or more. Because a ramp, and limestone is all free local materials, while wood is an expensive trade item in Egypt at the time. It might be easier, but it is still unevidenced, as to the ropes or the "boats", or any of the equipment needed. Yet, we have a leveled down ramp right there at the pyramids base.... Maybe used in the initial base construction and then covered over and only revealed again when the larger ramp structure was torn down.... 4500 years ago.

[cormac mac airt]

Possible, but that is going to be an Awful lot of maintenance. And all that wood is going to have to imported. And it ain't goin' to be cheap. You're looking at probably adding like 50% to the cost of the project, or more. Because a ramp, and limestone is all free local materials, while wood is an expensive trade item in Egypt at the time. It might be easier, but it is still unevidenced, as to the ropes or the "boats", or any of the equipment needed. Yet, we have a leveled down ramp right there at the pyramids base.... Maybe used in the initial base construction and then covered over and only revealed again when the larger ramp structure was torn down.... 4500 years ago.

DieChecker, are you just looking at the top-down picture of the densitogram or have you also seen the 3d view of all four sides? The latter puts it into better perspective and negates a 5 step layout IMO.

cormac

[jaylemurph]

Ignore the remains of ramps that have been found at Giza, IOW. Then (and only then) can this makle any sense at all.

Harte

"Don't mention the war! (I mentioned once, but I think I got away with it.)"

Basil Fawlty

--Jaylemurph

[cladking]

It might be easier, but it is still unevidenced, as to the ropes or the "boats", or any of the equipment needed.

1376a. The ropes are knotted; the boats of N. are tied together

1966a. Then let this copper be brought ------ the ḥnw-boat --- with it.

"Overseer of the Boats of Neith"

"Overseer of Canal"

1078a. To say: The door of heaven is open, the door of earth is open, ... The m3'-canal is opened

"Weigher/ Reckoner"

Horapollo; the ancients believed water sprayed from the earth.

http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=29.9792258&lon=31.1355114&z=19&l=0&m=s

692c. He is effervescent; he is effervescent; Shu, let thy arms be about N.

"... ... ... ... ... and running with a steady fall to the nearest point of the cliff edge, it seems exactly as if intended for a drain; the more so as there is plainly a good deal of water-weanng at a point where it falls sharply, at its enlargement."

Carbonated water in the Osiris Shaft. Warrm springs a few miles off.

455b. filled with thy splendour, come forth from the horizon,

455c. after thou hast taken possession of the white crown in the water-springs, great and mighty, which are in the south of Libya,

Five step pyramids.

Secret Caves Under the Pyramid.

No. What doesn't exist is any evidence at all that they used ramps to lift stones. What does

exist is that every single piece of evidence including the entire Egyptian culture says they used

"balance" achieved by water to "lift the earth".

[cladking]

Possible, but that is going to be an Awful lot of maintenance. And all that wood is going to have to imported. And it ain't goin' to be cheap. You're looking at probably adding like 50% to the cost of the project, or more. Because a ramp, and limestone is all free local materials, while wood is an expensive trade item in Egypt at the time. It might be easier, but it is still unevidenced, as to the ropes or the "boats", or any of the equipment needed. Yet, we have a leveled down ramp right there at the pyramids base.... Maybe used in the initial base construction and then covered over and only revealed again when the larger ramp structure was torn down.... 4500 years ago.

Feeding an army of stone draggers for one day would pay for the wood they needed for one year.

There is no ramp at the pyramid base. what is at the pyramid base is a 15 acre water collection device that was actually used.

[cladking]

I found this old video on youtube...whats your opinion ?

These ideasare always interesting and some of them are actually possibilities. Most are more

efficient than ramps and make more sense. However, I doubt any such means was used because

of the extreme amount of work required and evidence. This particular idea needs a little work to

show how they moved the stones laterally after lifting them.

[cladking]

The black lines are simply where the arbitrary density ranges selected pass into the next range catagory. They could imply physical structures, but the density on each side of the line CAN NOT be ignored.

Y

The black lines are simply where the arbitrary density ranges selected pass into the next range catagory. They could imply physical structures, but the density on each side of the line CAN NOT be ignored.

The only parallel lines I found on the scan were very short lines and lines at the base.

Is it illegal to take the drawing and make a rough copy to illustrate a point? I think only that exact image is Copyrighted. If I have time this weekend, I will take some copy paper and a graph pad and see what I can make of it.

My point is still firm that most of the lines I drew showed an inward angling in a counterclockwise fashion.

You're still missing my very simple point. Yes, there are regions of densities. Look

at the line defined by these regions and most are straight lines that are parallel to the

base. It is impossible for a ramp to be parallel to the base and it is impossible for a

spiral ramp to leave region that are parallel to the base where they ajoin.

It is strictly impossible that the most of these lines describe a ramp. They do appear

to describe a five step pyramid.

[cladking]

"Don't mention the war! (I mentioned once, but I think I got away with it.)"

Basil Fawlty

"Hello?... Ah, yes Mr O'Reilly, well it's perfectly simple. When I asked you to build me a wall I was rather hoping that instead of just dumping the bricks in a pile you might have found time to cement them together... you know, one on top of another, in the traditional fashion." -Basil Fawlty

[+DieChecker]

DieChecker, are you just looking at the top-down picture of the densitogram or have you also seen the 3d view of all four sides? The latter puts it into better perspective and negates a 5 step layout IMO.

cormac

Yeah I've seen it. I'm just trying to talk with Clad inside the datapoints he will accept, and trying to show that he's ignoring valuable data.

One point at a time....

Plus discussion with him is highly entertaining.

Edited February 28, 2013 by DieChecker

[+DieChecker]

1376a. The ropes are knotted; the boats of N. are tied together

1966a. Then let this copper be brought ------ the ḥnw-boat --- with it.

"Overseer of the Boats of Neith"

"Overseer of Canal"

1078a. To say: The door of heaven is open, the door of earth is open, ... The m3'-canal is opened

"Weigher/ Reckoner"

Horapollo; the ancients believed water sprayed from the earth.

http://www.wikimapia...14&z=19&l=0&m=s

692c. He is effervescent; he is effervescent; Shu, let thy arms be about N.

"... ... ... ... ... and running with a steady fall to the nearest point of the cliff edge, it seems exactly as if intended for a drain; the more so as there is plainly a good deal of water-weanng at a point where it falls sharply, at its enlargement."

Carbonated water in the Osiris Shaft. Warrm springs a few miles off.

455b. filled with thy splendour, come forth from the horizon,

455c. after thou hast taken possession of the white crown in the water-springs, great and mighty, which are in the south of Libya,

Five step pyramids.

Secret Caves Under the Pyramid.

No. What doesn't exist is any evidence at all that they used ramps to lift stones. What does

exist is that every single piece of evidence including the entire Egyptian culture says they used

"balance" achieved by water to "lift the earth".

Nothing in that actually provides proof of anything other then a canal.

It actually supports better my idea that boats (knotted together) brought stones from the South (The Horizon) and was so important that Noble Overseers were needed.

Feeding an army of stone draggers for one day would pay for the wood they needed for one year.

There is no ramp at the pyramid base. what is at the pyramid base is a 15 acre water collection device that was actually used.

I seriously doubt that 10,000 mens worth of food (say 50,000 lbs of wheat), cost the same as several hundreds of hardwood logs (say 500). I believe there is a record of sales of grains to Lebenon in the tens of thousands of pounds for only a couple logs. One day of logs probably would have cost as much as a month of laborer pay. I think you have that backward.

You're still missing my very simple point. Yes, there are regions of densities. Look at the line defined by these regions and most are straight lines that are parallel to the base. It is impossible for a ramp to be parallel to the base and it is impossible for a spiral ramp to leave region that are parallel to the base where they ajoin.

It is strictly impossible that the most of these lines describe a ramp. They do appear

to describe a five step pyramid.

I have to disagree, only by drawing a line from the inside of one end of a black line to the outside edge of the other end of the wide black line, could you possibly have anything that looks parallel. Draw your lines again and actually measure where they hit on both sides of the image. Few of the lines are parallel.

If by most lines, you mean very short lines, that are not long enough to actually be meaningful, then yeah, perhaps you are technically correct, while purposefully misrepresenting data.

That you consider it impossible just shows you actually are NOT impartial, and actually are the "closed mind" in this discussion.

[cormac mac airt]

Yeah I've seen it. I'm just trying to talk with Clad inside the datapoints he will accept, and trying to show that he's ignoring valuable data.

One point at a time....

Plus discussion with him is highly entertaining.

No problem. Just thought I'd save you the trouble with the graph paper as I've plotted out the points from the densitogram as best I could using the 3DVIA Shape program. It's from the same company that Houdin did his internal ramp work with. This is what I came up with:

The short barbell looking bits are where the alleged 5 steps are supposed to be. But the damn densitogram points keep missing them.

cormac

[+DieChecker]

No problem. Just thought I'd save you the trouble with the graph paper as I've plotted out the points from the densitogram as best I could using the 3DVIA Shape program. It's from the same company that Houdin did his internal ramp work with. This is what I came up with:

The short barbell looking bits are where the alleged 5 steps are supposed to be. But the damn densitogram points keep missing them.

cormac

COOL!!!

[TwilightSilver]

I'm just going to add my tired two cents on the supposed "alien" in the OP's post. Why would an ancient civilization such as Egypt put the "alien/God" all the way at the bottom of the carvings? If the Ancient Alien theory would be true, wouldn't they have regarded them as gods and put them above themselves? Especially if they were supposedly the driving force behind the creation of these tunnels, the pyramids, the Sphinx and such? It doesn't make much sense to me. I believe it's man's own ingenious that led to such phenomenal architecture. I have yet tosee otherwise.

[SHaYap]

No problem. Just thought I'd save you the trouble with the graph paper as I've plotted out the points from the densitogram as best I could using the 3DVIA Shape program. It's from the same company that Houdin did his internal ramp work with. This is what I came up with:

The short barbell looking bits are where the alleged 5 steps are supposed to be. But the damn densitogram points keep missing them.

cormac

Maybe I'm not reading the graph right Sir cormac, but I can't find a back path / return path back to ground level, it's a one way rise to the top, logistics would require a two way at least if not multi path around the build area considering the work schedule that requires different aspects of stonework laying and fitting to be done concurrently.

[cormac mac airt]

Maybe I'm not reading the graph right Sir cormac, but I can't find a back path / return path back to ground level, it's a one way rise to the top, logistics would require a two way at least if not multi path around the build area considering the work schedule that requires different aspects of stonework laying and fitting to be done concurrently.

As laid out the pyramid I plotted the points on is showing top as east, which makes north and south left and right respectively. It's from the north and south (left and right mid to upper corners) that they would have fed the blocks up the pyramid IMO. By the time one gets a bit over half way up two lines of movement wouldn't be necessary as there isn't as much room to maneuver for both. One line, sufficiently wide enough for returning traffic would be plenty. In any case, as shown the alleged "5 steps" don't appear to be relevant to the actual layout of the densitogram.

cormac

[cladking]

No problem. Just thought I'd save you the trouble with the graph paper as I've plotted out the points from the densitogram as best I could using the 3DVIA Shape program. It's from the same company that Houdin did his internal ramp work with. This is what I came up with:

The short barbell looking bits are where the alleged 5 steps are supposed to be. But the damn densitogram points keep missing them.

Great! You're half way to having a step pyramid. Before we go anywhere please note

that the majority of these lines are parallelto the base and disprove that they are associated

or could be associated with spiral ramps.

Now, get rid of all those short lines near the corners that don't exist at all on the gravimetric

scan. They confuse the image. Then get rid of the extremely steep lines that are probably

unrelated to either ramps or five step pyramids. These allrepresent relatively subtle density

differences anyway and might diasappear at a different gain. They confuse the issue as well.

What you're left with is mostly parallel lines that describe a five step pyramid. Yes, I'm aware

that most of the lines are missing but each step is defined and some are exceedingly well de-

fined.

There are ramp looking configurations at the bottom. These look so much like ramps it's a

virtual certainty that they were (sortta) used as ramps. Remember that this looks into the struc-

ture only about eight to ten meters at the bottom so we are only seeing the outside and in most

places can't even see all the way to the first step. It is unlikely that these ramps were used by

teams of men to drag stones up the pyramid. It is more likely that as they were finishing up in

the very last phase, cladding the bottom step, that they had significant amounts of excess water

so they employed it to lift stones to a greater altitude than necessary and then using manpower,

animal power, or counterweights they dragged the stones DOWN these "ramps" to complete the

cladding. Until they get out there and get us the data we need we can't be sure of anything at

all except that ramps are debunked and that it's a five step pyramid. These two pieces of know-

ledge go hand in hand and are highly consistent with logic and the physical evidence.

[SHaYap]

As laid out the pyramid I plotted the points on is showing top as east, which makes north and south left and right respectively. It's from the north and south (left and right mid to upper corners) that they would have fed the blocks up the pyramid IMO. By the time one gets a bit over half way up two lines of movement wouldn't be necessary as there isn't as much room to maneuver for both. One line, sufficiently wide enough for returning traffic would be plenty. In any case, as shown the alleged "5 steps" don't appear to be relevant to the actual layout of the densitogram.

cormac

Thanks Sir cormac, from what I've gathered so far, the problem of work traffic need a good sort through, that's a massive workforce that is being proposed so far currently

~edit : post bumped

Edited February 28, 2013 by third_eye

[cladking]

I seriously doubt that 10,000 mens worth of food (say 50,000 lbs of wheat), cost the same as several hundreds of hardwood logs (say 500). I believe there is a record of sales of grains to Lebenon in the tens of thousands of pounds for only a couple logs. One day of logs probably would have cost as much as a month of laborer pay. I think you have that backward.

Let's see 100,000 men times 200 days > the wear imparted to six imported cedar logs from Byblos per year.

Right.

And men dragging stones up ramps can eat radishes and onions all day.

...And the queen said let them drink sand (even as a 15 acre water collection device sat all around the work)

Orthodox opinion needs to get real.

[cormac mac airt]

Great! You're half way to having a step pyramid. Before we go anywhere please note

that the majority of these lines are parallelto the base and disprove that they are associated

or could be associated with spiral ramps.

Now, get rid of all those short lines near the corners that don't exist at all on the gravimetric

scan. They confuse the image. Then get rid of the extremely steep lines that are probably

unrelated to either ramps or five step pyramids. These allrepresent relatively subtle density

differences anyway and might diasappear at a different gain. They confuse the issue as well.

What you're left with is mostly parallel lines that describe a five step pyramid. Yes, I'm aware

that most of the lines are missing but each step is defined and some are exceedingly well de-

fined.

There are ramp looking configurations at the bottom. These look so much like ramps it's a

virtual certainty that they were (sortta) used as ramps. Remember that this looks into the struc-

ture only about eight to ten meters at the bottom so we are only seeing the outside and in most

places can't even see all the way to the first step. It is unlikely that these ramps were used by

teams of men to drag stones up the pyramid. It is more likely that as they were finishing up in

the very last phase, cladding the bottom step, that they had significant amounts of excess water

so they employed it to lift stones to a greater altitude than necessary and then using manpower,

animal power, or counterweights they dragged the stones DOWN these "ramps" to complete the

cladding. Until they get out there and get us the data we need we can't be sure of anything at

all except that ramps are debunked and that it's a five step pyramid. These two pieces of know-

ledge go hand in hand and are highly consistent with logic and the physical evidence.

Only in your imagination.

The short lines near the corners (barbells) are where your alleged 5 steps should fall. Your first fail.

Nope, take it as it's laid out. NOT as you want it to be.

What you're left with is a long, slow winding rise to the top. Counter-clockwise.

Amazing, you're not blind after all.

cormac

[cladking]

Let's see 100,000 men times 200 days > (is greater than) the wear imparted to six imported cedar logs from Byblos per year.

Maybe you'll remember this little gem;

445a. To say: O Hrti of Nsȝ.t, ferryman of the ’Iḳh.t-boat, made by Khnum,

445b. bring this (boat) to N. N. is Seker of R-Śtȝ.w.

445c. N. is on the way to the place of Seker, chief of Pdw-š.

445d. It is our brother who is bringing this (boat) for these bridge-girderers (?) of the desert.

"’Iḳh.t-boat" is the generic term for counterweight, I believe.

"R-Śtȝ.w" is "Mouth of Caves" where the great pyramid was built and the bridge girderers worked and didn't drink sand.

Pdw-š. is "Spread Lake" which is in the desert whjere they are bringing the boat. Seker is "chief" of Spread Lake because it is he who "tows the earth by means of balance" so after he falls he creates a lake which spreads from where he is dumped from the counterweight (’Iḳh.t-boat).

Why would you possibly believe that they'd need so many of these boats that it would be cheaper to build it by dragging stonesup ramps? Why would 150 square feet of greased surface area supporting twenty tons wear at all? If it did wear too much do you really believe these people weren't smart enough to increase the surface area? Why must they have been stupid?

I've done everything but put a nice little bow on this and the powers that be won't even respond. Do you really not see a problem here? How can all the evidence fit and the powers that be stop even talking as they wait for me to fashion a nice little bow and put it all on a silver platter? If I were most people I'd just have anbnounced "case closed" a long time ago and take the same risk as the 19th century scientiists who announced "they mustta used ramps". The difference, of course being ALL the evidence supports geysers just as doi the secret caves under the pyramids.