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dreamland

Secret Caves under the Pyramids

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Sorry. All we gots is soda water.

You can thank Cladking for that.

Harte

Well, I guess that'll do fine I suppose, Mr. Harte.

I'll shall remember to send 'im a card then shouldn't I ?

Now, would a back rub be considered out out of the question then?

No, I won't consider asking for a ramp.

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There are no construction ramps. There are chisel marks and saw marks on stones.

Oh yes there is. :innocent:

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In other words they must have used ramps.

More like, "They very probably used ramps.".

If we knew what was in the quarry it might actually be sufficient to prove ramps. But we

don't know what is or was there so it's just hearsay. No scientific sampling has been done

and the anecdotal reports are conflicting. The same applies to the material building up the

northern cliff face. It's easy enough to say this equates with ramps but there's still no evidence

that they built them this way.

What if they took 2000 samples from the quarry and C-14 dated them? And it came back as being deposited in 3 waves of debris, all paralleling the construction dates of the 3 great pyramids? Would that be good proof of ramps?

There's no reason that ramps wouldn't show up on the gravimetric or infrared scanning. After

all dragging them straight up the side DID in fact show up on the gravimetric scan so maybe we'd

see ramps on the infrared or ultraviolet. We won't ever know because they're afraid of the pyramid.

I thought the Bui gravimetric map DID seem to show ramps.

Density+imaging+of+the+Cheops+pyramid+(2010).JPG

http://hdbui.blogspot.com/

Edited by DieChecker
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Well, I guess that'll do fine I suppose, Mr. Harte.

I'll shall remember to send 'im a card then shouldn't I ?

Now, would a back rub be considered out out of the question then?

No, I won't consider asking for a ramp.

Only if you provide the single malt that goes with the soda.

Harte

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Only if you provide the single malt that goes with the soda.

Harte

toss the soda Mr Harte, alls we needs is a cube of blue ice.

what I have here is a bottle of Glen 15yr old golden honey

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What if they took 2000 samples from the quarry and C-14 dated them? And it came back as being deposited in 3 waves of debris, all paralleling the construction dates of the 3 great pyramids? Would that be good proof of ramps?

You'd actually want to see two waves, ideally. Unfortunately though we don't really know

that G and G2 didn't overlap somewhat in construction which might make these two waves

a little subtle.

The problem is really quite simple; orthodox theory has utterly failed and we don't have a

single point of fact to use as a basis for understanding. The theory has failed because it

is bad theory and for no other reason. It's bad theory because there were too many con-

founding factors and too little evidence to work with. Obviously a good sampling and under-

standing of the material in the quarry is of utmost importance and should have been inclu-

ded in my list of projects to start immediately. Whatever overlies the bottom of the quarry

can provide any number of possible clues about construction and cleanup after building.

I thought the Bui gravimetric map DID seem to show ramps.

Density+imaging+of+the+Cheops+pyramid+(2010).JPG

http://hdbui.blogspot.com/

You're not seeing ramps. Go back to the page and look at all the information on one picture. It

looks like a square. If you draw in the five steps you'll see that this is a five step pyramid and the

"ramps" simply disappear. Bui specifically denies anyone permission to use this drawing with the

steps drawn in. But you can see where these steps go and they are 81' 3" apart and equally spac-

ed. This is a five step pyramid and this is one of the things that would be proven by infrared ima-

ging which is one of the things they are terrified of. The only possible reason to build these five

steps is that they were pulling stones up 81' 3" at a time. This maximum height varied with each

pyramid strongly suggesting a natural cause rather than something like maximum rope lenght. As

I said countless times ramps have been utterly debunked. They did not have the resources or will

to build long ramps and drag stones up them. There is no evidence whatsoever of the resources or

will to do such a thing and there is extensive evidence of other means to build that would involve

the caves under "the Mouth of Caves".

People need to forget about ramps and ask the powers that be how the pyramids were really built.

Just because they don't much care how they were built they should not be allowed to duck the ques-

tion and avoid the tests. This is the third millineum and we deserve better than "because I said so".

Why are they so afraid?

Edited by cladking

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The gravimetric map indicates a spiral, though whether it ascends or is on horizontal plane is not proved, though I would think commonsense has it ascending. If the BUI was actually showing steps, then they would surely not show a spiral pattern, but a series of squares of decreasing size one inside the other.

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There are no construction ramps. There are chisel marks and saw marks on stones.

I did not say construc tion ramps, i said ramps. Of course they did not have the time to just create ramps for the fu n of it. They would have had a practical application so what was it?

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I did not say construc tion ramps, i said ramps. Of course they did not have the time to just create ramps for the fu n of it. They would have had a practical application so what was it?

Quaentum,

Cladking already knows that remains of ramps at the foot of the G.P. have been discovered, indicating that the stones were lifted out of the quarry (that is right in front of the G.P.) with ramps.

He has also been shown the many and varied remains of ramps at other pyramid sites - including ramps that are still there even to this day.

It makes no difference to him. Once everything was ramped up out of the quarry, then the soda water geyser equipment took over, according to him.

Obviously, there's no geyser there. But that doesn't matter to him. Nor does he care to explain how neighboring pyramids were constructed - presumably each has its own geyser(?)

After all, several pyramids nearby are fully comparable to the Great Pyramid, they're just a few meters shorter.

Harte

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The gravimetric map indicates a spiral, though whether it ascends or is on horizontal plane is not proved, though I would think commonsense has it ascending. If the BUI was actually showing steps, then they would surely not show a spiral pattern, but a series of squares of decreasing size one inside the other.

Nope.

I'm well aware that people see a spiral but they want to see a spiral and there is some

information on this scan that does seem to reflect a spiral. But this is misinterpretation

of pretty direct evidence. If you copy this thing on a sheet of paper you can easily draw

in the five steps that are 81' 3" high each. Draw them in boldly and the so called spiral

almost entirely disappears. There are only three lines suggesting a spiral, but more im-

portantly there is a line that shows a reverse spiral that is impossible if they represent

construction ramps. Hence these can not be showing a spiral and it's an optical illusion

caused primarily by the fact that this scan is looking at only the outside of the pyramid.

Since it's a five step pyramid and the only way to clad it was from the upper steps down

we're only seeing what occurred on the exterior finishing operations. They had ample bal-

last as they were finishing up so the easiest way to move stones was to lift them to the

step above where they were needed and drag them down temporary inclines on the out-

side.

There are numerous places these steps appear and if they ever do simple tesating they

will appear in many more places. They had to be built with step because there was a lim-

ited height to which they could lift stones. This height was known as "3b3w" or "heaven",

I believe. All the evidence is all around us and it is misinterpreted.

I've requested permission to post the picture of the five step pyramid and even went to the

trouble to learn how to do it but they will not give me permission. They are apparently a-

ware that these are five steps but don't want it "published" anywhere. There is an entrench-

ed status quo that ignores things like the caves at Giza as they continue to trowel for ramps.

Until people insist on facts there will be no change.

What are they afraid of?

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I did not say construc tion ramps, i said ramps. Of course they did not have the time to just create ramps for the fu n of it. They would have had a practical application so what was it?

They mostly built steps and stairs to get from one level to another but there are ramps here and there

especially for lower inclines where steps are less efficient for most walkers. The earliest attested usage

of ramps is as a walkway;

1717a. A ramp is trodden for thee to the Dȝ.t to the place where Śȝḥ is.

This usage of the word comes from long after the great pyramid buiulding age and is in reference to a

walkway and not anything like a highway ramp or construction ramp. There are numerous usage of the

words "steps" and "stairs" in this exact same work as the means by which the dead king accesses heaven.

The word "ramp" isn't attested at all from the great pyramid building era or earlier!!! It would be quite an

achievement to build a great pyramid with ramps but an even greater achievement to do it without ever

using the word.

These so called ramps they have found are all pretty flimsy, all point away from or to the base of the py-

ramid, and have not been sjhown to have anything to do with dragging stones. They actually constitute

fairly good evidence that ramps were not used to lift stones on the great pyramids since they can not be

integral to any ramping system and imply stones were delivered to the base.

There are far easier way to lift stones into a pile than to create ramps and drag the pile up them. So why

is everyone married to ramps? Why would anyone want to do it the hard way? Why would anyone do it

the hard way and then leave lots of evidence they did it the easy way?

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Quaentum,

Cladking already knows that remains of ramps at the foot of the G.P. have been discovered, indicating that the stones were lifted out of the quarry (that is right in front of the G.P.) with ramps.

He has also been shown the many and varied remains of ramps at other pyramid sites - including ramps that are still there even to this day.

There is no evidence any stone was ever lifted up any great pyramid with ramps. You're

just playing word games. You've had years to show evidence and have failed. The only thing

that even approaches being evidence for ramps is the debris in the main G1 quarry but like

everything else this has never been studied.

Once everything was ramped up out of the quarry, then the soda water geyser equipment took over, according to him.

Not exactly. While you're pretty much literally correct it must be noted that no man ever dragged

a stone, I believe. Stones were dragged out of the quarry by the counterweights. Isis the counter-

weight gave birth to horus the quarried stone.

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Isis the counter-weight gave birth to horus the quarried stone.

I am familiar with your contention about isis and Horus, and have to say that it is wrong. Horus is clearly a sky god, not a metaphor for lumps of rock. Sky gods in some religions are known to be the original god of that religion, though often seem to be downgraded in later times. For instance Germanic Tyr or Tiwas ended as a god of war, but his origin was as a sky god, and probably originally was seen as God. Slavic Hors is a sky god, and shares attributes with Horus, though similar name is just co-incidental. Horus is a part of God, not a lump of rock. I too read pyramid texts, Faulkner version, and see nothing to suggest Horus is anything except a skygod and certainly has nothing to do with pyramid building. And BTW, there is nothing wrong with my eyes, I see a spiral in BUI, and what is seen is too irregular to be steps, which should mirror the external shape of the pyramid ground plan.

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There is no evidence any stone was ever lifted up any great pyramid with ramps. You're

just playing word games. You've had years to show evidence and have failed. The only thing

that even approaches being evidence for ramps is the debris in the main G1 quarry but like

everything else this has never been studied.

Again, Cladking, you demonstrate that you have no knowledge whatsoever of the actual facts that have been established.

Ramp leading to Khufru's pyramid:

PDF including information about a ramp used in construction of Menkaure's mortuary temple.

Menkaure was the successor to Khafre, and another pharoah from the 4th dynasty (just like Khufu.)

Ramp remains found in various places around Egypt:

More on remains of ramps:

Sinki pyramid ramps (3rd Dynasty)near Abydos:

Sinki again:

Same site shows a pic of construction ramps for an unfinished Giza pyramid.

There is plenty more evidence of ramp usage in Ancient Egypt contemporary with the 4th Dynasty or, at the very least, contemporary with the Old Kingdom.

Quotes were provided in the post I made in 2010 from the above linked pages. To see these, check the Source

Not only has the case been clearly and logically made for ramps, the case is almost airtight.

Say, where's the evidence for this geyser again? When was it discovered? Who discovered it? Is there one under every pyramid? Why not? How'd they move these other huge blocks then? Was it from whale's blowholes? The Hand of God? Did an earthquake fling all these other blocks in other pyramids into place?

Harte

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Quotes were provided in the post I made in 2010 from the above linked pages. To see these, check the Source

Not only has the case been clearly and logically made for ramps, the case is almost airtight.

You've only proved you don't read the simple sentence that there is no evidence that any stone was ever lifted

on any great pyramid. Rather than address this you cite links that are wholly irrelevant because they are refering

to other than great pyramids or are irrelevant. You cite things that are not addressing the question or have been

shown countless times to be inaccurate or speculative. Why don't you link my reply to your irrelevancies?

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I see.

Other pyramids comparable in size to the Great Pyramid - they used ramps.

The Great Pyramid - geysers that nobody can find (but ramps galore at Giza.)

Right. Makes sense.

Harte

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They mostly built steps and stairs to get from one level to another but there are ramps here and there

especially for lower inclines where steps are less efficient for most walkers. The earliest attested usage

of ramps is as a walkway;

1717a. A ramp is trodden for thee to the Dȝ.t to the place where Śȝḥ is.

This usage of the word comes from long after the great pyramid buiulding age and is in reference to a

walkway and not anything like a highway ramp or construction ramp. There are numerous usage of the

words "steps" and "stairs" in this exact same work as the means by which the dead king accesses heaven.

The word "ramp" isn't attested at all from the great pyramid building era or earlier!!! It would be quite an

achievement to build a great pyramid with ramps but an even greater achievement to do it without ever

using the word.

These so called ramps they have found are all pretty flimsy, all point away from or to the base of the py-

ramid, and have not been sjhown to have anything to do with dragging stones. They actually constitute

fairly good evidence that ramps were not used to lift stones on the great pyramids since they can not be

integral to any ramping system and imply stones were delivered to the base.

There are far easier way to lift stones into a pile than to create ramps and drag the pile up them. So why

is everyone married to ramps? Why would anyone want to do it the hard way? Why would anyone do it

the hard way and then leave lots of evidence they did it the easy way?

What evidence do you have that they mostly used steps and stairs?

Yes the PT do come well after the pyramid building age, but the reference to ramps in the pt does signify that the egyptians knew about them before hand and the fact that ramps have been found with the pyramids means they knew about them during the pyramid building age. It matters not if they are mentioned in any writings from the pyramid building age at all since they do exist.

Is it not contradictory to say in one breath there is no evidence that stones were hauled up ramps in building of the great pyramid and ramps were too flimsy to haul stones, yet in the next breath say it is implied they were used to deliver the stones to the base of the pyramid? Would that not also require the stones to be hauled up the ramp?

I would also like to know who says they hauled piles of stones up the ramps? One at a time would be easier.

If by "The easy way" you mean your theory of geysers, please enlighten me as to what text, writings or actual evidence from the age of pyramid building you have that supports that theory.

Edited by Quaentum

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And BTW, there is nothing wrong with my eyes, I see a spiral in BUI, and what is seen is too irregular to be steps, which should mirror the external shape of the pyramid ground plan.

I know you see a spiral. I bet you wouldn't see a spiral if you drew in the five step pyramid as

I explained. Optical illusions exist only where there is nothing wrong with your eyes. There is

no spiral ramp here. Try drawing in the five steps and what you think you see will nearly vanish.

I am familiar with your contention about isis and Horus, and have to say that it is wrong. Horus is clearly a sky god, not a metaphor for lumps of rock. Sky gods in some religions are known to be the original god of that religion, though often seem to be downgraded in later times.

I probably shouldn't have made the statement. I know that it is anathema to almost everyone

who studies the ancients but this is related to the caves and how the PT says they really built

the pyramids. Everything has been all jumbled up because it has been interpreted and trans-

lated in terms of later times. You're, of course, right that Horus was a sky god but this was Horus

the elder or Horus god of the land of rainbows whoi was a sky god. Horus, son of Isis was very

much different and didn't exist until they began building in the land of Horus. Tayet was the god-

dess of the quarry and a generic goddess but Horus was specific to "Rosteau" (Mouth of Caves).

This is spelled out perfectly clearly in the PT;

1964d. as Isis said to Nun:

1965a. "I have given birth to him for thee; I have deposited him for thee; 1 have certainly spit him out for thee."

1965b. He has no feet; he has no arms,

Horus has no feet and no arms. He has hands and legs though.

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I see.

Other pyramids comparable in size to the Great Pyramid - they used ramps.

Right. Makes sense.

Read the post again.

Great pyramids got progressively larger until they stopped after building G2.

The first great pyramid was Djoser Pyramid. They are ALL five step pyramids and there

is no evidence any were built with ramps. Any pyramid that does not foit these definitions

is not a great pyramid.

Egyptology tries to hide the facts behind a sandstorm of words and misdirection. They try

to pretend that ramps are established fact where the only argument (they mustta used ramps)

has been utterly disproven and the means used is otherwise evidenced. These are five steps

because they had to be built by pulling the stones up the side because ramps are an imposs-

ibility. Ramps are unevidenced bewcause they werem't used and they weren't used because

they would have been the hardest possible way to lift stones.

Please read and understand each sentence here before responding. We just go through the

same thing with every post.

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What evidence do you have that they mostly used steps and stairs?

I don't consider this of much import but the fact is steps are easier to handle than ramps. They

are more natural to the human gait and we still use them today. Of course, there are both steps

and ramps surviving from the great pyramid building age. A good rule of thumb then as now is

that inclines of less than 10 degrees will usually be an inclined plane but for walkways they will

tend to use steps for steeper ascents.

It matters not if they are mentioned in any writings from the pyramid building age at all since they do exist.

Of course it matters. We are told there's plenty of evidence and cultural context but they neglected

to even use the word "ramp"!!! This meansd there are no "Overseers of Ramp Builders", and no

"Overseer of Ramp Dismantlers", no "Ramp Designers", no gods of ramps no inscriptions of "the Crew

of the Drunken Ramp Builders of Khufu, no nothing. Everywhere you look there are no ramps. There

are no exceptions to this and there are no ramps. How can this be if there were ramps? How can there

be no evidence for ramps and no word for ramps?

Is it not contradictory to say in one breath there is no evidence that stones were hauled up ramps in building of the great pyramid and ramps were too flimsy to haul stones, yet in the next breath say it is implied they were used to deliver the stones to the base of the pyramid? Would that not also require the stones to be hauled up the ramp?

The question isn't whether or not there are ramps. We all know there were ramps. The question

is how did they lift stones to build great pyramids (NOT SINKI!!!!!!). This is where there is no evidence

that ramps were used. Of the several ramps associated wirth great pyramids none are on the pyramid

or pointed at it, And sufficiently robust, And not explained as for some other use than lifting stones on

the pyramid. None can be explained as part of a ramping system to deliver stones high on the pyramid

exclusively.

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Read the post again.

Great pyramids got progressively larger until they stopped after building G2.

The first great pyramid was Djoser Pyramid. They are ALL five step pyramids and there

is no evidence any were built with ramps. Any pyramid that does not foit these definitions

is not a great pyramid.

The Red Pyramid is a "step pyramid?"

red16.jpg

Once covered in Tura limestone exactly like the Great Pyramid.

How is this a step pyramid? I mean, any more than Khufu's is a step pyramid.

Please consider any of the rules of logic that you might possibly still have at your command before replying.

Harte

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I would also like to know who says they hauled piles of stones up the ramps? One at a time would be easier.

The pyramid is the "pile of stones" to which I was referring.

If by "The easy way" you mean your theory of geysers, please enlighten me as to what text, writings or actual evidence from the age of pyramid building you have that supports that theory.

No, no, no. By the "easy way" I mean the way that is actually evidenced; pulling the stones

straight up the side. This is how they actually built the pyramids based on the actual evidence

rather than the belief that they could only have used ramps. Pulling the stones up the side

was many times easier than building ramps and dragging stones on them.

It is incidental to this very nearly established fact that I believe that they used water filled coun-

ter weights to drag the styones styraight up the side. This would probably be established fact

as well if the powers that be weren't sitting on their hands (much like a stone) for the last 6 1/2

years. The facts are really pretty determinative here considering all the evidence isa they had

water and that the pyramids are all built right on water collection devices.

What we "know" for fact is they pulled stones up the side and what is apparent is that they used

water to do it. I believe the water arrived naturally at the pyramid site therough the caves.

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The Red Pyramid is a "step pyramid?"

red16.jpg

Once covered in Tura limestone exactly like the Great Pyramid.

How is this a step pyramid? I mean, any more than Khufu's is a step pyramid.

Please consider any of the rules of logic that you might possibly still have at your command before replying.

The evidence for this pyramid being a step pyramid is the weakest of all the great pyramids.

Why don't we simply demand they do a gravimetric scan of this pyramid and prove me wrong?

If I can be shown to be wrong about one then I'm most probably wrong about all of them. We

can add this to the list of science they aren't doing in Egypt.

What are they afraid of.

I'd love them to show this wasn't a five step pyramid so I can get back to what I used to do. But

everytime they do actual science in the last 150 years it supports geysers and not ramps. This

test would not support ramps any more than any other real science has supportyed ramps be-

cause they did not use ramps and proper theory "always" makes accurate predictions.

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Read the post again.

Great pyramids got progressively larger until they stopped after building G2.

The first great pyramid was Djoser Pyramid. They are ALL five step pyramids and there

is no evidence any were built with ramps. Any pyramid that does not foit these definitions

is not a great pyramid.

Egyptology tries to hide the facts behind a sandstorm of words and misdirection. They try

to pretend that ramps are established fact where the only argument (they mustta used ramps)

has been utterly disproven and the means used is otherwise evidenced. These are five steps

because they had to be built by pulling the stones up the side because ramps are an imposs-

ibility. Ramps are unevidenced bewcause they werem't used and they weren't used because

they would have been the hardest possible way to lift stones.

Please read and understand each sentence here before responding. We just go through the

same thing with every post.

No, they're not. For your 5 step pyramid to work each step would have to be separate from the one above/below it. It's quite obvious from Bui's densitogram that this is not true anywhere on the Great Pyramid. A continual, counter-clockwise spiral can be seen on its layout. That you don't like this is irrelevant to the fact that it exists. Nor are the lines, as per the densitogram, at exactly the same height all the way around the GP which as they should be for your 5-step layout to work.

cormac

G2 is not larger than G1, that's why they call G1 "the Great Pyramid".

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No, they're not. For your 5 step pyramid to work each step would have to be separate from the one above/below it. It's quite obvious from Bui's densitogram that this is not true anywhere on the Great Pyramid. A continual, counter-clockwise spiral can be seen on its layout. That you don't like this is irrelevant to the fact that it exists. Nor are the lines, as per the densitogram, at exactly the same height all the way around the GP which as they should be for your 5-step layout to work.

G2 is not larger than G1, that's why they call G1 "the Great Pyramid".

http://hdbui.blogspot.com/

Look at the image at the top of the page. You can see that right under it he specifically forbids

anyone from adding the five steps. I'm not the one who doesn't like the facts. It's the status quo

that doesn't like the fact that this is a five step pyramid. I've got the picture right here and would

post it in a heart beat except I'm confident it's forbidden specifically. So if you want to see it then

you have to draw your own. I would hurry though as I expect this information to be removed from

the net altogether since everyone is afraid of the pyramid and afraid of the truth. There are no

ramps and they lifted each stone one step at a time as proven by the facts. They did not have to

use ramps and they didn't use ramps.

G2 used to be called "the Great Pyramid". The difference in size is not great.

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