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dreamland

Secret Caves under the Pyramids

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You do realize that "The Earth" may mean the whole world and not stones that were to be part of the pyramids. Also there is a big difference between a counter weight and a balance.

I know my "interpretation" of the PT and culture is unique. This doesn't prove it's wrong.

You can not envision how ramps were used but who is to say they used one long ramp. If we wish to speculate, perhaps the ascending passageway and grand gallery were also used as a ramp during the construction of the pyramid.

The question was, is, and will always remain how they got the bulk of the stones up. It simply

doesn't matter how they goit any individual stone up any pyramid. It doesn't matter if the grand

gallery was used or not because it could have affected only a tiny minoirity of stones in one single

pyramid so it can't be an answer to the question. All the evidence suggests all the stones (vast

majority) were lifted by the exact same means and this is what we want to know.

I have done some searching (yes I actually do search which explains why some replies take time) and from what I have found on several sites, the earliest pyramid texts come from the time of Unas, the last king of the fifth dynasty. It does say in sacred texts online : "However, because of extensive internal evidence, it is believed that they were composed much earlier, circa 3000 B.C.E." but there is no evidence to support that belief. So the texts that we have access to come from a time 150 - 200 years after the Great Pyramid was built.

If you eliminate the PT because Egyptology can't find proof that it existed earlier than

there is simply no evidence at all. Yes, to exercise perfect methodology and logic we

probably should simply say we don't know anything at all (other than experimental re-

sults). This means no ramps, no tombs, no cultural context, nothing.

I don't have a problem with this really but you need to realize that all the physical evi-

dence supports my contention as well. This means that they "mustta used geyser". Pick

your poison. You also need to realize that it was the PT that led me to most of the phys-

ical evidence; the two are mutually consistent as well as internally consistent.

In your zeal to prove your geyser theory, you have made perhaps your largest error. You have used the pyramid texts from a time after the Great Pyramid was built and applied them as though they predated it without actual evidence that the text, much less the passages in the text you are using as evidence, actually existed prior to the building of the Great Pyramid. It may not invalidate the theory but is, in itself, an invalid method.

If I really understand the PT then it's irrelevant when they were written because they still

say the pyramids were built with geysers. Sure it's heads I win tails you lose but this is the

the evidence that was left for us.

I think we all need to just suspend our disbelief and run all the tests that will show how it

was built no matter how it was built. Do the infrared scan. I predict that no matter what the

results are someone will be able to spot the answer.

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To be fair, he's had years of experience in telling us all he knows better than everyone else. I think there's hardly anyone better at telling us that than him.

It's not like it's my fault there's a cave under here. I didn't put it here any more

than I put the new ben ben stone down by the Sphinx temple. It's just the hand

we've all been dealt. It all fits together only one way.

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The question was, is, and will always remain how they got the bulk of the stones up. It simply doesn't matter how they goit any individual stone up any pyramid.

I think you are making things Black or White. Who is to say that the AE did not build the lower 75% of stones with many wide short ramps, and then use a more exotic method for the very top stones. Piling up stones for the base would have been very quick, so they might have had 20 year to get the topmost parts built. Levering might have been used or even counterweights or cranes.

If you eliminate the PT because Egyptology can't find proof that it existed earlier than there is simply no evidence at all.

Isn't there images on tombs of Ramps from the same time period as the Pyramid Texts? How can you discount that they used ramps for constructing temples and tombs, because of the difference in time, but hold fast to the PT, which has to bridge the same time frame?

If I really understand the PT then it's irrelevant when they were written because they still say the pyramids were built with geysers.

Not necessarily, even if we assume your interpretation is correct, then it would mean that some kind of fluid was used. How the fluid got high enough to be effective is another matter. Perhaps the Egytians used very long water screws to lift the water, or large water wheels powered by donkeys?

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when you talk of ramps, you're thinking of just one, with a gradient that would be far too steep to push rocks up, but if you build a ramp that encircles the pyramid, the gradient would be shallow enough to be effective.

when you build a road up a mountain, you don't build it straight up it. you zig-zag it so it isn't steep.

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when you talk of ramps, you're thinking of just one, with a gradient that would be far too steep to push rocks up, but if you build a ramp that encircles the pyramid, the gradient would be shallow enough to be effective.

when you build a road up a mountain, you don't build it straight up it. you zig-zag it so it isn't steep.

That is actually how I think they did it. They first built the lower quarter, which is over half the stones, with many fairly short ramps. Then started a switchback system on top of that existing work to keep the amount of ramp stuff needed down. Not really sure how they did the very top. It seems that they might have just lifted them individually when they were 99% done.

Edited by DieChecker

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I think you are making things Black or White. Who is to say that the AE did not build the lower 75% of stones with many wide short ramps, and then use a more exotic method for the very top stones. Piling up stones for the base would have been very quick, so they might have had 20 year to get the topmost parts built. Levering might have been used or even counterweights or cranes.

There is simply no evidence that any of the great pyramids are any different in any

part of their construction. Course thicknesses have regular changes. Stones are the

same at every elevation. The implication is every stone on each pyamid was lifted the

same way and it's verylikely all the stones on all the great pyramids were lifted the same

way. Obviously a few stones and odd stones might well have been handled differently.

Isn't there images on tombs of Ramps from the same time period as the Pyramid Texts? How can you discount that they used ramps for constructing temples and tombs, because of the difference in time, but hold fast to the PT, which has to bridge the same time frame?

No. There is no evidence of any sort that any stone was ever lifted on a great pyramid with ramps.

There is a purported picture of a ramp on a causeway of a tiny pyramid but I've never seen it. It's

irrelevant so it doesn't matter. There were numerous ways they could have built little pyramids.

Not necessarily, even if we assume your interpretation is correct, then it would mean that some kind of fluid was used. How the fluid got high enough to be effective is another matter. Perhaps the Egytians used very long water screws to lift the water, or large water wheels powered by donkeys?

My understanding of the PT is that they are saying that a cool effervescent column of water was

degassed on the pyramid top and its weight was used in the henu boat to lift stones.

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when you talk of ramps, you're thinking of just one, with a gradient that would be far too steep to push rocks up, but if you build a ramp that encircles the pyramid, the gradient would be shallow enough to be effective.

when you build a road up a mountain, you don't build it straight up it. you zig-zag it so it isn't steep.

Nobody has been able to design a ramp system that would work. I agree that a spiral ramp might

be the closest to being workable but there are still several huge problems with it. There are corners

to navigate. There is the impossibility of cladding it on the way down meaning it had to be cladded

on the way up leaving no way to sight the pyramid to keep it true. There is no evidence such as

sloped lines on the pyramid exterior.

There's a long laundry list of major faults with the entire concept of using ramps and these apply more

to spiral ramps than most others. Perhaps it might be possible to build something this size with ramps

but it never happened and no one would ever try it. Anyone building something this large would either

find an easier way like dragging them up the side one step at a time or they would never attempt it.

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cladking for president !

Speaking of presidents...

Shortly after president Obama was sworn in he visited G1 and the first question he asked was how it was built.

He asked Dr Hawass and was told it was ramps. I'm sure he didn't mention the lack of evidence.

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That is actually how I think they did it. They first built the lower quarter, which is over half the stones, with many fairly short ramps. Then started a switchback system on top of that existing work to keep the amount of ramp stuff needed down. Not really sure how they did the very top. It seems that they might have just lifted them individually when they were 99% done.

It's a five step pyramid. So they built 1 1/2 steps with ramps and switched?

If it worked so well up to 120' why would they abandon ramps? When did the cladding go on?

Sorry, but ramp theories don't work and they have all been debunked.

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It's a five step pyramid. So they built 1 1/2 steps with ramps and switched?

If it worked so well up to 120' why would they abandon ramps? When did the cladding go on?

Sorry, but ramp theories don't work and they have all been debunked.

YES.

When there is diminishing returns, surely they would have changed their system... Unless you're saying they were just Primitive Bumpkins that could not think??

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There is the impossibility of cladding it on the way down meaning it had to be cladded

on the way up leaving no way to sight the pyramid to keep it true.

Nope. It was quite easy to keep everything straight. Even cladding on the way down would not be so hard.

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Course thicknesses have regular changes. Stones are the same at every elevation. The implication is every stone on each pyamid was lifted the same way and it's verylikely all the stones on all the great pyramids were lifted the same way. Obviously a few stones and odd stones might well have been handled differently.

What are you talking about? You say the Courses have the same size and that the courses vary as you go up and then... you say that all the stones must have been moved in the same way???

That is counter intuitive. If the stones at the top, as is known, are less then a half meter on a side, then how can you say they were moved the same way as the stones at the base that are over a meter high? That is a factor of ten difference. That is like saying that someone that carries a 5 pound bag of grocerys will use the same carrying style when they have a 50 pound bag of grocerys. Counter-intuitive.....

It's irrelevant so it doesn't matter.

It is not irrelevant. It is from the same timeperiod as the PT and thus could easily portray how things were done earlier, just as you judge the PT outlines.

My understanding of the PT is that they are saying that a cool effervescent column of water was

degassed on the pyramid top and its weight was used in the henu boat to lift stones.

That could be by using a water screw and that it frothed when it tumbled foaming out the top.

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What are you talking about? You say the Courses have the same size and that the courses vary as you go up and then... you say that all the stones must have been moved in the same way???

That is counter intuitive. If the stones at the top, as is known, are less then a half meter on a side, then how can you say they were moved the same way as the stones at the base that are over a meter high? That is a factor of ten difference. That is like saying that someone that carries a 5 pound bag of grocerys will use the same carrying style when they have a 50 pound bag of grocerys. Counter-intuitive.....

It is not irrelevant. It is from the same timeperiod as the PT and thus could easily portray how things were done earlier, just as you judge the PT outlines.

That could be by using a water screw and that it frothed when it tumbled foaming out the top.

I'm not sure that a water screw was utilized in the Old Kingdom but the next closest thing, the shaduf, wasn't used until many centuries after the Giza Pyramids were constructed IIRC.

cormac

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I'm not sure that a water screw was utilized in the Old Kingdom but the next closest thing, the shaduf, wasn't used until many centuries after the Giza Pyramids were constructed IIRC.

cormac

Thanks Cormac.

Just pointing out to Clad that even if we accept his Pyramid Text idea, there are numerous ways to explain how water might be raised without a geyser.

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-SNIP-

No. There is no evidence of any sort that any stone was ever lifted on a great pyramid with ramps.

There is a purported picture of a ramp on a causeway of a tiny pyramid but I've never seen it. It's

irrelevant so it doesn't matter. There were numerous ways they could have built little pyramids.

-SNIP-

There's evidence of ramps al right but you chose to ignore it. The correct turn of phrase should be : "There is no evidence of ramps that I care to accept or even consider."

-SNIP-

Sorry, but ramp theories don't work and they have all been debunked.

No. There's still more evidence to ramps than to your personal interpretation of the PT, which is based on some fantasy of yours. So debunked? You'll find that reality is different.

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There are corners

to navigate. There is the impossibility of cladding it on the way down meaning it had to be cladded

on the way up leaving no way to sight the pyramid to keep it true. There is no evidence such as

sloped lines on the pyramid exterior.

There's a long laundry list of major faults with the entire concept of using ramps and these apply more

to spiral ramps than most others. Perhaps it might be possible to build something this size with ramps

but it never happened and no one would ever try it. Anyone building something this large would either

find an easier way like dragging them up the side one step at a time or they would never attempt it.

.

it seems obvious to me that you don't really have any understanding of engineering.

why would navigating a corner with a block present a problem? I can think of three different solutions straight away.

why would cladding the pyramid on the way down be an 'impossibility'? cladding it on the way down is MUCH easier than cladding it on the way up as you've already got a ramp in place to work from, dismantling the ramp as you work down towards the base.

there are only a 'long laundry list of problems' to people who don't understand basic engineering precepts.

in what way are dragging 1.5t stone blocks 300ft up the side of a slope easier than sliding them up a shallow gradient on a lubricated carriage??

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There is no evidence of any sort that any stone was ever lifted on a great pyramid with ramps.

.

but there's an absolute abundance of evidence that the pyramids were built by space aliens I suppose....?

.

There is a purported picture of a ramp on a causeway of a tiny pyramid but I've never seen it. It's

irrelevant so it doesn't matter.

.

dismissing something out of hand because it doesn't fit with your theories is both scientifically unsound, and intellectually pathetic.

what you have isn't an argument, it's a very poorly judged opinion.

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No. There is no evidence of any sort that any stone was ever lifted on a great pyramid with ramps.

There is a purported picture of a ramp on a causeway of a tiny pyramid but I've never seen it. It's

irrelevant so it doesn't matter. There were numerous ways they could have built little pyramids.

Again:

On the South side of the paved road, South of Khufu's pyramid, we excavated down about 2.50 meters and found another part of the ramp. This part is in line with the Eastern and Western wall and is of similar construction. This discovery proves that the ramp led from the quarry to the Southwest comer of the pyramid and was made of stone rubble and Tafla.(see plans 2,3) The ramp rises to about 30 meters above the pyramid's base at its Southwest comer. The ramp would have leaned against the pyramid's faces as they rose. Somewhat like accretion layers wrapped around the pyramid with a roadway on top. The weight of this ramp is borne by the ground around the pyramid. Traffic could move along the top of this structure as both pyramid and ramp rose in tandem. The top of the pyramid could be reached with only one and one quarter turns. The slope would rise with each turn from a reasonable 65 degrees, for the first section, to as much as 18 degrees for the last climb to the apex.

http://guardians.net/hawass/pbuildrs.htm

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Again:

On the South side of the paved road, South of Khufu's pyramid, we excavated down about 2.50 meters and found another part of the ramp. This part is in line with the Eastern and Western wall and is of similar construction. This discovery proves that the ramp led from the quarry to the Southwest comer of the pyramid and was made of stone rubble and Tafla

http://guardians.net/hawass/pbuildrs.htm

.

now, I don't know what cladking would call this (apart from 'irrelevant' of course.), but to me, actual physical remains of a ramp, excavated in situ, is what i'd consider, pretty conclusively, to be 'evidence'.

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.

now, I don't know what cladking would call this (apart from 'irrelevant' of course.), but to me, actual physical remains of a ramp, excavated in situ, is what i'd consider, pretty conclusively, to be 'evidence'.

To clad it's wrong interpretation of the facts at hand and outright lies. "THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TOWARDS RAMPS!!" or indeed irrelevant.

Everybody else, would of course agree with you. :whistle:

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There is simply no evidence that any of the great pyramids are any different in any

part of their construction. Course thicknesses have regular changes. Stones are the

same at every elevation. The implication is every stone on each pyamid was lifted the

same way and it's verylikely all the stones on all the great pyramids were lifted the same

way. Obviously a few stones and odd stones might well have been handled differently.

I think you mean that the stones that are at the same elevation are similar in size.

As you go up the GP, the stones shrink in size. This results in the bottom stones being slightly less than twice the size of the top ones.

Why would they do this if the same geyser was lifting them all?

Harte

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.

now, I don't know what cladking would call this (apart from 'irrelevant' of course.), but to me, actual physical remains of a ramp, excavated in situ, is what i'd consider, pretty conclusively, to be 'evidence'.

I've quoted that very passage to him over the last six years or so multiple times.

He has no answer for it except they might have used a ramp from the quarry, but it was all geysers after that.

Harte

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they might have used a ramp from the quarry, but it was all geysers after that.

Harte

.

then i'm not even going to bother asking him if he's any idea how much water pressure would be needed to lift a 1.5t stone block 300ft into the air, something that would be quite impossible even today.

I suppose the fact that the stone itself would shatter with the forces involved is 'irrelevant' too...?

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To clad it's wrong interpretation of the facts at hand and outright lies. "THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TOWARDS RAMPS!!"

.

then that suggests a very juvenile attitude towards the pursuit of knowlege, and therefore cannot be taken seriously.

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