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dreamland

Secret Caves under the Pyramids

969 posts in this topic

I've quoted that very passage to him over the last six years or so multiple times.

He has no answer for it except they might have used a ramp from the quarry, but it was all geysers after that.

Harte

In case people want to know, here's where I started quoting from that site (I think today is just my third time in the past year, lol), and Cladking''s respons:

Post 239 in that thread:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=200920&st=225#entry4414995

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.

then i'm not even going to bother asking him if he's any idea how much water pressure would be needed to lift a 1.5t stone block 300ft into the air, something that would be quite impossible even today.

I suppose the fact that the stone itself would shatter with the forces involved is 'irrelevant' too...?

Not necessarily.

He has the idea that water from the geyser was captured in a tightly woven basket and used as a counterweight. That is, unless he's changed his "theory" (I pay little attention to his "details" anymore.)

Obviously, this ignores the fact that sand makes a much better counterweight than water, and is far more abundant at Giza.

Harte

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In case people want to know, here's where I started quoting from that site (I think today is just my third time in the past year, lol), and Cladking''s respons:

Post 239 in that thread:

http://www.unexplain...25#entry4414995

Here's where I started: http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=81834&st=315&p=1932765entry1932765

Harte

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Not necessarily.

He has the idea that water from the geyser was captured in a tightly woven basket and used as a counterweight.

Harte

.

I don't understand? is he suggesting they used the counterweight on a 300ft A frame or something?!

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In case people want to know, here's where I started quoting from that site (I think today is just my third time in the past year, lol), and Cladking''s respons:

Post 239 in that thread:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=200920&st=225#entry4414995

.

cladking's response made the claim that there are 'hundreds of pieces of evidence pointing in a different direction'.

such as....?

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.

it seems obvious to me that you don't really have any understanding of engineering.

why would navigating a corner with a block present a problem? I can think of three different solutions straight away.

why would cladding the pyramid on the way down be an 'impossibility'? cladding it on the way down is MUCH easier than cladding it on the way up as you've already got a ramp in place to work from, dismantling the ramp as you work down towards the base.

there are only a 'long laundry list of problems' to people who don't understand basic engineering precepts.

in what way are dragging 1.5t stone blocks 300ft up the side of a slope easier than sliding them up a shallow gradient on a lubricated carriage??

Let's just ignore the fact for the nonce that there's absolutely no evidence for having

used any ramps and look at the question fundamentally. Are you aware for instance that

until I started pointing out these inconsistencies that the proposed ramping systems didn't

didn't even contain provisions for the men to get back down after they dragged the stones

up? People aren't thinking these things through in most cases. They want to wave a magic

wand and have a pyramid appear 4750 years ago. Then they see evidence it worked every-

where they look. This is the way the mind works.

If you clad the pyramid on the way up then there is nothing for your ramp to adhere to. Since

the ramp will have to rest on the ground the entire pyramid will have to be made under a huge

(sculpted) mound of earth. It is simply impossible even today to build a structure you can't see.

It would look like something Dali designed when you were done. Consider a 60 ton stone on a

7 degree slope. You'd have 60 men dragging it and with the men side by side the team and load

would be 325' long and a ramp at the corner would have to be over 80' wide just to keep a large

bend out of your team. An 80' wide ramp is an impossibility at any natural stack angle for most

earths because it would cover the ramp below. The pyramid is 52 degrees and most engineers

will not include this in their calculations because it's already steeper than the angle of inclination

of many types of fill.

Putting the cladding on on the way up is easy and neat but it doesn't allow any sort of final check

to smooth out small flaws in the construction. The laundry list of problems doesn't appear so much

in theory as it does in the real world. Dragging a stone up a mile long ramp is extremely easy in

theory. It isn't even that difficult in practice unless you have to make your own ramp. What is dif-

ficult is getting enough men on site and doing it 6 1/2 million times with an ancient economy (or any

economy at all). The impossibility is to do it and then leave the evidence that actually exists. Why

is no one in the least concerned that the word "ramp" isn't even attested before the end of the great

pyramid age? This is the mother of inconsistencies yet everyone sees ramps everywhere they look

and are blind to caves. They are even blind to a ben ben stone growing right in front of their eyes.

I'd say if it were a serpent it'd bit ya', but the fact is I believe what's coming out of this is exactly what

the builsders called a serpent. It is a serpent, it has bitten you and it will continue to bite until it is

addressed.

The evidence is all inconsistent with ramps and is consistent with "Secret Caves Under the Pyramids".

People are just going to have to deal with it and then get treatment for those snake bites before we

find out if they're venomous.

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He has the idea that water from the geyser was captured in a tightly woven basket and used as a counterweight.

.

why would they use tightly woven baskets (presumably reed?) when animal skin would be much more efficient?

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I think you mean that the stones that are at the same elevation are similar in size.

As you go up the GP, the stones shrink in size. This results in the bottom stones being slightly less than twice the size of the top ones.

Why would they do this if the same geyser was lifting them all?

Nonsense.

I've provided this link to you more times than I can count. I have no doubt you'll spew the same thing ad infinitum anyway;

http://www.ronaldbirdsall.com/gizeh/petrie/photo/plate8.html

I've also demolished that nonsense about having found a ramp a dozen times before.

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Did i see or read somewhere that somebody found a battery operated torch in egypt somewhere that was thousands of years old

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YES.

When there is diminishing returns, surely they would have changed their system... Unless you're saying they were just Primitive Bumpkins that could not think??

There's no evidence they changed their lifting methods unless you choose to believe that every lifting

method possible would cause a pattern that repeated all the way to the top. This is illogical in the extreme

especially in light of the fact there are only eight or ten possible methods because they had only primitive

technology and materials. It is this latter that would be especially restrictive on how it could be built. If you

are going to use one means near the bottoim and another near the top (even different configurations of

ramps) then you will expect to see a clear delineation where this change occured and no such delineation

exists on any great pyramid.

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Nope. It was quite easy to keep everything straight. Even cladding on the way down would not be so hard.

Cladding on the way down is not only impossible because of the nature of the cladding

it is also impossible due to the nature of ramps. It can't have happened. Study the pictures

of the G2 top and this should become clear.

egypt-x-2.jpg

Also look at the picture of the intact cladding stone on G1.

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It is not irrelevant. It is from the same timeperiod as the PT and thus could easily portray how things were done earlier, just as you judge the PT outlines.

Are you suggesting then the the later picture was coopied out of a coloring book or its equivalent?

Yes, they had the PT and it probably evolved for centuries before the Great Pyramid was built and

it probably evolved for more than a century after it was built. We know as fact it evolved for 1500

years after it was built. But it's illogical to presume they had a book of pictures and this has any

bearing oin great pyramid construction. If they really drew a picture of men dragging stones to build

a little pyramid then they probably dragged stones to make liuttle pyramids but no basis exists to ex-

trapolate this knowledge. Sure, maybe they did drag stones to build great pyramids but this doesn't

constitute evidence for it.

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there you go again cladking, with your 'no evidence for ramps claim, when it's been clearly pointed out, numerous times, that there is indeed evidence!

why do you keep ignoring that fact?

and weren't you the one who stated that the cladding HAD to be put on on the way up, as doing it in reverse would now be an impossibility?

speaking as an engineer, with over 25yrs of experience, and a degree in both mechanical, and structural engineering, I can tell you that your 'calculations' and your assumptions are well out.

'they made no provisions for the men to get back down from the top'.

what, like walking back down the ramp?

'what is difficult is getting enough men on site'

with an estimated 35-50,000 men, that's more than enough don't you think?

and as for 'most engineers not including that angle in their calculations', silbury hill is just a figment of my imagination then is it?

Edited by shrooma

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.

then i'm not even going to bother asking him if he's any idea how much water pressure would be needed to lift a 1.5t stone block 300ft into the air, something that would be quite impossible even today.

I suppose the fact that the stone itself would shatter with the forces involved is 'irrelevant' too...?

The water was caught at the top of its trajectory at 81' 3".

It was then collected in large counterweights and when these fell over the side they lifted a load of stone on the other side to which they were attached.

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Here's where I started: http://www.unexplain...5

Harte

Lol, maybe if we repeat it for another 5 years, Clad will finally accept it?

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Cladding on the way down is not only impossible because of the nature of the cladding

it is also impossible due to the nature of ramps.

.

can you explain what you mean by this. because it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever?

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cladking's response made the claim that there are 'hundreds of pieces of evidence pointing in a different direction'.

such as....?

All the cultural and physical evidence points the exact same way and there are

countless hundreds of data points. Yes, I know, I'm disregarding some things as

irrelevancies because they don't fit the overall pattern but I believe that the pattern

is firmly established and all the irrelevancies are tiny. Where the ramp theory tosses

out just about everything know as irrelevant or merely of religious significance Im tossing

out a few phrases in the PT or the fact that we don't have even the smallest piece of the

ancient ben ben stones. Ramp theory ignores a huge 15 acre water collection device

right on site that was always built before the pyramid and I ignore the "ramps" that appear

on the first step of the pyramid exterior. The bottom line is that there is almost no evidence

for anything at all and orthoxy throws out the bulk of this evidence as being irrelevant while

I throw out very verylittlke of it. My theory has hundreds of data points and orthodoxy has

the contention that only ramps could have been used and almost nothing else. This doesn't

prove I'm right but I think what does prove I'm right is that ramp theory can't make predictions

but water theory conmtinues to explain all the news like a cistern in Khentkawes Town found

last year that can only be filled by runnibng water and the caves under the pyramids. It ex-

plains the ben ben stone growing as we speak in the Sphinx Temple.

All the news forever will continue to support water as the means to build and they will never

find ramps or evidence that ramps were used. This will never change unless we decide to

start using magic and beliefs to find the truth. God help us if that ever happens.

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The water was caught at the top of its trajectory at 81' 3".

.

again, can you explain this?

'caught at the top of its trajectory'

what trajectory? are you saying it was fountained up? the egyptians simply didn't have any way of forcing thousands of tons of water to such heights.

you need to study fluid dynamics, water pressure, and even something as basic as 'heft' by the sound of it.

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can you explain what you mean by this. because it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever?

The cladding rests on the cladding below so it is impossible to set a stone without the stone below already in place.

A ramp gives you access to the pyramid only where the ramp top meets the pyramid. If the ramp meets the pyramid on the east side you don't have access to the west side to put in cladding stones.

Therefore one can say it is impossible to clad on the way down because of both the nature of the cladding and the nature of ramps.

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obviously you're going to need a 'huge 15acre water collecting site if you're going to keep 35-50,000 people hydrated while they do enormously physical work in very hot temperatures.

you need to start applying occham's razor to your thinking a little more, and stop reading details into things that don't exist.

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I don't understand? is he suggesting they used the counterweight on a 300ft A frame or something?!

No. The water fell in a large "boat" that held a maximum capacity of 25 tons but was

usually operated at about 18 tons. Two of these operated at the same time. The PT

gives extensive details about how these looked, smelled, sounded, and operated but

I've been informed that this information turns people off. Suffice to say it was built like

a boat but the ribbing was on the outside and the inside was tarred.

Most of the lifts using these "cranes" took place from 81' 3" so if stones had to go high-

er than this level they had to be relayed 81' 3" at a time. This is why it's a step pyramid;

they needed a place to set the loads after they were lifted 81' 3".

All the great pyramids are step pyramids because this is the way they were built.

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The cladding rests on the cladding below so it is impossible to set a stone without the stone below already in place.

.

the stone underneath the cladding is arranged in steps. the cladding rests on the step, not the piece of cladding below.

.

A ramp gives you access to the pyramid only where the ramp top meets the pyramid. If the ramp meets the pyramid on the east side you don't have access to the west side to put in cladding stones.

.

again, you're thinking of a single ramp instead of one that spirals around the pyramid.

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again, can you explain this?

'caught at the top of its trajectory'

what trajectory? are you saying it was fountained up? the egyptians simply didn't have any way of forcing thousands of tons of water to such heights.

you need to study fluid dynamics, water pressure, and even something as basic as 'heft' by the sound of it.

The water in the aquifer under Giza is almost certainly still carbonated today. There

are several anecdotal reports that the water is carbonated. The PT suggest that the

water was very highly carbonated in ancient times and flowed through these caves to

the surface where it shot up like soda pop out of a bottle after adding salt to it or shak-

ing it. This idea simply permeates everything from the great pyramid building age and

persists a little right up until the Greeks conquered them.

This process is known today as a cold water geyser and these were intensively studied

by the Egyptians for centuries until they could control them sufficiently to use them for

building.

This is all described in the PT in intimate detail but modern people seem immune to the

words because they appear in a different format than the way we speak. It is a sort of

"computer code" or natural language where the meaning is expressed in context and not

in words. In our language words take their meaning from context but in the ancient lan-

guage meaning is expressed in context.

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No. The water fell in a large "boat" that held a maximum capacity of 25 tons but was

usually operated at about 18 tons. Two of these operated at the same time.

.

I can see how that could work.

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obviously you're going to need a 'huge 15acre water collecting site if you're going to keep 35-50,000 people hydrated while they do enormously physical work in very hot temperatures.

you need to start applying occham's razor to your thinking a little more, and stop reading details into things that don't exist.

This doesn't work. If you think about it you'll see numerous intractible problems with

this explanation. Most notable is that a spiral ramp would completely fill this water collection

device. It wouldn't make sense to create pools of water in the hot dry desert anyway since

evaporation rates would be extremely high and the water would get very hot. I could go on.

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