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dreamland

Secret Caves under the Pyramids

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By all means do it then. Show us how they could lift 6 1/2 million tons af stone

to an average 150' or so without using 55 HP over 20 years.

Well. I looks like I must apologize. The math shows that with 15.3 billion pounds of stone, at 20 years (38 billion minutes) and with a center of mass of 120 feet... That would be about 48.4 Horsepower needed. So Clad was good with that number.

It does assume that the limestone is of the heaviest variety, and that it is solid. And a more reasonable figure for the time would be 8.5 billion minutes (200 work days per year, with 10 hour days). Which comes to closer to 210 required Horsepower constantly.

BUT.... It is well known that humans can perform at 0.1 HP practically indefinately and can perform at 1.5 HP for short stretches. So... That would mean 210 HP = 2100 laborers to do the vertical liftiing. So, with 10,000 laborers everyone should have had it pretty easy actually.

When considering human-powered equipment, a healthy human can produce about 1.2 hp briefly and sustain about 0.1 hp indefinitely; trained athletes can manage up to about 2.5 hp briefly and 0.3 hp for a period of several hours.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Horsepower

post-26883-0-96540400-1356316401_thumb.j

There.... Impossibility of building pyramid DEBUNKED using common math in like half an hour.

Edited by DieChecker

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BUT.... It is well known that humans can perform at 0.1 HP practically indefinately and can perform at 1.5 HP for short stretches. So... That would mean 210 HP = 2100 laborers to do the vertical liftiing. So, with 10,000 laborers everyone should have had it pretty easy actually.

These men needed a means to lift the stone also.

They needed to overcome friction and inefficiency. The total HP is the reciprocal of

the efficiency times the power needed todo the job.

Just because a man can do .1 HP doesn't mean that is any means by which he can

raise a 21/2 ton stone to 120' (this pyramid is on a hill by the by).

It's very ironic really that the means Watt used to define Horse Power was a dray horse

lifting a weight behind it. This is exactly the means evidenced to build the great pyramids!!

What are the odds? The stones were pulled straight up the sides of the steps.

It's remarkable just how much resistance this simple little finding generates. It is resisted

because all the orthodox assumptions are sacrosanct and not even the tiniest change is

permitted. Evidence is simply irrelevant to the believers. People are allowed to be orth-

odox only so long as they espouse the ideas that the great pyramids were tombs built with

ramps by changeless and superstitious people. One of these notions is wholly illogical.

One is utterly debunked. One has little supporting evidence. And one is based solely on

interpretation of very little evidence. Yet if someone doesn't accept them all without quest-

ion he is a pyramidiot.

Orthodoxy needs to not only reexamine the evidence but how they treat those who disagree.

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1) I got this from internet : The Great Pyramid of Giza's location in latitude is about 29° 58′ 45.03″ N or 29.97697709832755 latitude North. The speed of light in meters per second is 299,792,458. In other words...

10,000,756.81 * 29.97697709832755 = 299,792,458.

The Great Pyramid of Giza's exterior slope angle (rise / run) is 51° 51 minutes or about 186,600 arc seconds. The speed of light in miles per second is 186,282. In other words...

1.001707089 * 186,282 = 186,600.

So here is the question:

How in the __hell did people, roughly 4,552 years ago, know about the speed of light?

interesting,huh?

2) I really dont think primitive people could build such a huge structure.Based on these informations from wikipedia:

The mass of the pyramid is estimated at 5.9 million tonnes. The volume, including an internal hillock, is roughly 2,500,000 cubic metres.[3] Based on these estimates, building this in 20 years would involve installing approximately 800 tonnes of stone every day. Similarly, since it consists of an estimated 2.3 million blocks, completing the building in 20 years would involve moving an average of more than 12 of the blocks into place each hour, day and night....

it is impossible to do it by primitive people without using some superhuman power or knowledge.

We talking about 2.3 millions of blocks weighting few tons each that had to be cut,brink into work place and put together to create such a giant pyramid. Come on guys... its impossible.. some blocks inside the kings chamber weight as much as 60 tons each !! i watched video of few people trying to push block of stone that weights only 3 tons and it was very hard for them to do it...so how is it posible that primitive people could lift a 60 tons block all the way up that is inside the kings chamber? the only explanation is that ancient egyptians could posses a secret knowledge how to reduce a weight of the block or even levitate them..without that..its not possible...

There's one tiny problem, the Great Pyramid actually has 8 sides.

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Here's a picture;

image8.gif

As you can plainly see the course thickness of the typical or average course hardly varies.

I am not going to play words games about this any longer or help count the number of angels

danciong on the head of a pin. It is what it is.

Where do you think my numbers came from? :rolleyes: They are Petrie's own measurements of the Northeast corner of the GP. And his measurements for the Southwest corner aren't significantly different. The only thing this shows is that you don't pay attention to the measurements, nor the math involved, but are easily side-tracked by the picture.

cormac

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These men needed a means to lift the stone also.

Uhhh... That is what the ramp is for.

It spreads the lifting over a greater distance, so as long as they can break the friction, less people are needed to actually lift the stone.

They needed to overcome friction and inefficiency. The total HP is the reciprocal of the efficiency times the power needed to do the job.

Just because a man can do .1 HP doesn't mean that is any means by which he can raise a 2 1/2 ton stone to 120' (this pyramid is on a hill by the by).

True enough. One man could not do it without mechanical aid. And thus introduce... the Ramp. Plus any one of dozens of ideas that produced less friction. Such as using logs imbeded in the ramp (corduroy) to reduce the amount of surface area touching the stones. Or gravel under the stones. Or, sledges....

The coefficient of friction for stone on stone is like 0.4 to 0.7. And if they used corduroy roads or sledges, that would be about 0.5, but there would be a lot less surface contact. Either way it is still not going to be hard.

It's remarkable just how much resistance this simple little finding generates. It is resisted because all the orthodox assumptions are sacrosanct and not even the tiniest change is permitted.

And here I thought it based on Facts. Which ramps have and counterweights or pullys do not.

Evidence is simply irrelevant to the believers.

...One of these notions is wholly illogical.

...One is utterly debunked.

Back at ya Clad...

You are making this a lot harder then it really is.

There's one tiny problem, the Great Pyramid actually has 8 sides.

I thought it only had two sides... An inside and an outside... :innocent:

And maybe an underside??

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Guys..seriously...you really think they could push a 60 ton stone block up the ramp.There is no visible evidence of any ramps used on or near pyramids.We are dealing with an ancient civilization that had a knowledge beyond this world.

Most elephants weight as much as 7.5 ton...now try to push 9 elephants like this up the ramp...good luck

Edited by dreamland

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I don't get why people always bring up the fact that no tools or ramps were left behind. Why would they leave these valuable tools lying around and why leave ramps there blocking the view of the huge accomplishment? Whenever I see a building nowadays, I don't see the tools left behind from the workers and don't see any cranes left behind.

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He may not 'hold the position' as you say, but he's still got to much power & influence, I see things maybe changing once he dies.

Incorrect. Hawass no longer holds any power or influence in the government of Egypt, period. He was part of the Hosni Mubarak regime, so Hawass's fate was sealed with Mubarak's.

This is not to say Hawass can no longer conduct archaeology, write books, or engage in public speaking (he was recently interviewed in New York, where he openly expressed fear for his life due to his former ties to Mubarak). However, Hawass no longer holds any position in Egypt, so to continue his career as an Egyptologist, he will need to be hired by a legitimate university or institute. It's possible this might happen.

The bottom line is, there's no need to paint Hawass as some sort of boogyman. Continuing to do so is not only now outdated, but was never reasonable to begin with.

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Can you imagine what can be under the pyramids, sure the egyptian government wont allow it, but if the egyptians did got help from other beings, the secret under the pyramid could lead to all knew discoveries and much more mysteries.

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I don't get why people always bring up the fact that no tools or ramps were left behind. Why would they leave these valuable tools lying around and why leave ramps there blocking the view of the huge accomplishment? Whenever I see a building nowadays, I don't see the tools left behind from the workers and don't see any cranes left behind.

Well..i will stay with my opinion and i will say it again and again that no ramps were used.Even if there were..it would not be possible for people to simply push a 60 ton stone block over 50 meters up.

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Guys..seriously...you really think they could push a 60 ton stone block up the ramp.There is no visible evidence of any ramps used on or near pyramids.We are dealing with an ancient civilization that had a knowledge beyond this world.

Most elephants weight as much as 7.5 ton...now try to push 9 elephants like this up the ramp...good luck

The largest blocks of masonry in the Great Pyramid weigh no more than 50 tons. Still considerable, I grant you. But as to your point about ramps, the very well-preserved footing of a large delivery ramp was found just to the east of the Great Pyramid some years ago. Additionally, Mark Lehner has posited the remains of another lie just to the northwest (I believe that's the direction, although I might not be remembering it correctly).

Even so, the largest blocks of masonry (those weighing between 40 and 50 tons) would not have been brought up these ramps. Under construction, the flooring of what became the Grand Gallery would've been the ideal ramp for the purpose. And as it happens, the heaviest blocks of masonry at elevation lie within the construct around and above the chambers at the top of the Grand Gallery.

No aliens were involved, nor did the Egyptians have any sort of advanced understanding of outer space. To the ancient Egyptians, their cosmos began and ended in the Nile Valley. Always a good example is their concept of the sky: they believed it was a vast body of water through which Re towed the sun by day. This is not the sort of thing a people possessing an advanced understanding of outer space would believe.

I am not denigrating the ancient Egyptians in saying this. I am merely pointing out a basic fact. Take it as a cautionary tale against applying New Age opinions on an ancient civilization or, even worse, drawing information from a ridiculous, half-baked venue like Ancient Aliens. I am not saying this description fits you, dreamland. It is merely a gentle reminder for everyone reading this post.

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I don't get why people always bring up the fact that no tools or ramps were left behind. Why would they leave these valuable tools lying around and why leave ramps there blocking the view of the huge accomplishment? Whenever I see a building nowadays, I don't see the tools left behind from the workers and don't see any cranes left behind.

Actually, DKO, abundant ancient tools have been found all over the Nile Valley. They have been retrieved in archaeological digs from practically every notable ancient work site (e.g., pyramids, other tombs, temples, villages). Pounding stones, wooden mallets, bronze and copper chisels, and more are well attested from pharaonic times. Almost every museum with a sizable Egyptian exhibit will have at least several on display.

I just composed a post mentioning two ramps known for the Great Pyramid. And that's only the Great Pyramid. Many ancient necropoli and even temples still have some ramps in place, while the footings of ramps, as well as well-prepared trackways for masonry delivery, are known at numerous other sites, pyramids included.

The huge mistake many fringe posters make is in claiming there's just no evidence. All this really shows is that many fringe posters are not aware at all of the evidence. Well, other fringe posters are aware of it, but for some reason they steadfastly prefer to ignore it. Go figure.

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" No aliens were involved, nor did the Egyptians have any sort of advanced understanding of outer space" -by saying this..so you probably also agree that there is no connection between pyramids and 3 stars at orions belt.As far as anceint aliens...well..i did mpt said that aliens build pyramids..but for me it is impossible for ancient egyptians to build such a massive pyramid.As i stated in my other posts..2.3 million stone blocks had to be cut,moved into work place and put together and all this in only 20 years...they really had to work fast.

i also notice ur from Chicago just like me ....what part of Chicago?

Edited by dreamland

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" No aliens were involved, nor did the Egyptians have any sort of advanced understanding of outer space" -by saying this..so you probably also agree that there is no connection between pyramids and 3 stars at orions belt.

No, to be honest I do not see any real connection with Orion. Nor do any Egyptologists or other professional historians, as far as I'm aware. I know how popular the idea is with alternative writers, including the occasional poster at UM. I don't buy it, however.

As far as anceint aliens...well..i did mpt said that aliens build pyramids..but for me it is impossible for ancient egyptians to build such a massive pyramid.As i stated in my other posts..2.3 million stone blocks had to be cut,moved into work place and put together and all this in only 20 years...they really had to work fast.

The kings of early Dynasty 4 possessed ample power and authority to marshall the resources for the job. Manpower was no problem. Almost all of the raw materials were readily available, and those of a more exotic nature, such as granite, could be retrieved from distant quarries.

Some people like to play with the math as though their conclusions were reflective of a rock-hard theory (pun intended). I don't know how many times I've seen posters write that the stones had to be delivered in such-and-such minutes. In the end it's mostly an exercise in futility because there are far too many variables we cannot answer. You provided a block count of 2.3 million stones. Some historians still say the same. Nowadays many more say it was probably more around 2 million; others posit even fewer. We can never know for certain, of course, short of disassembling the monument and counting the stones one at a time. Needless to say, that will never happen.

We do not and never will have a full understanding of the matrix deep within the pyramid. At best it's observable that deeper behind the outermost stones, the Great Pyramid is not a solid construct of neatly aligned masonry through and through. Large areas of the inside appear to be a rough hodgepodge of different-sized stones, rubble, fill, and mortar. Also, the footing of much of the pyramid is taken up by a sizable limestone massif, a lot of which can be seen at the bottom areas of the pyramid today.

Also, for one more example, we don't know how many feeder ramps might have been employed at one time. I've mentioned two that are extant in the archaeological evidence, but were there three or four? How many more teams of haulers might this have accommodated? How many teams could be on two or three or four feeder ramps at one time?

Like I said, too many variables. The short of it is, obviously the job was successful. The Great Pyramid is there. The evidence for how masonry was cut and dressed and hauled is well understood. However, there remains no real evidence for aliens of any kind.

And as I always like to joke, why would a super-advanced race of aliens travel the vast expanse of space, employing technology we could not fathom even today, to come all the way to our littler blue world to teach our ancient ancestors to build...in stone?

i also notice ur from Chicago just like me ....what part of Chicago?

I'm a northsider, not far from where Lakeshore empties out. Always nice to meet a fellow Chicagoan. :tu:

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1) I got this from internet : The Great Pyramid of Giza's location in latitude is about 29° 58′ 45.03″ N or 29.97697709832755 latitude North. The speed of light in meters per second is 299,792,458. In other words...

10,000,756.81 * 29.97697709832755 = 299,792,458.

The Great Pyramid of Giza's exterior slope angle (rise / run) is 51° 51 minutes or about 186,600 arc seconds. The speed of light in miles per second is 186,282. In other words...

1.001707089 * 186,282 = 186,600.

So here is the question:

How in the __hell did people, roughly 4,552 years ago, know about the speed of light?

interesting,huh?

...

Don't you question how the AEs knew about the metric or imperial systems, before they were defined?

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The kings of early Dynasty 4 possessed ample power and authority to marshall the resources for the job. Manpower was no problem. Almost all of the raw materials were readily available, and those of a more exotic nature, such as granite, could be retrieved from distant quarries.

Without knowing how the pyramids were built it is simply impossible to say that they had

more than enough power and authority to build the pyramid. Without knowing what conditions

prevailed it's impossibe to know whether building these was like a summer picnic or mass beatings

were required to make the men slave as their wives and children starved to death.

The bottom line is there is almost no evidence whatsoever and the little bit that exists is always inter-

preted to fit an unproven and unrealistic paradigm.

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There is a fine line between being uncertain and being unreasonably uncertain. If I drop a rock, it will fall to the ground. But, I can't be sure. Maybe an eagle will fly under it and carry the rock off. Maybe my nemesis will jump out and catch the rock to foil my scheme. But is it reasonable to say, on that basis, that I don't know what happens when I drop a rock? No, it is not.

That is what you are doing, Clad. Being unreasonably uncertain.

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1) I got this from internet : The Great Pyramid of Giza's location in latitude is about 29° 58′ 45.03″ N or 29.97697709832755 latitude North. The speed of light in meters per second is 299,792,458. In other words...

10,000,756.81 * 29.97697709832755 = 299,792,458.

The Great Pyramid of Giza's exterior slope angle (rise / run) is 51° 51 minutes or about 186,600 arc seconds. The speed of light in miles per second is 186,282. In other words...

1.001707089 * 186,282 = 186,600.

So here is the question:

How in the __hell did people, roughly 4,552 years ago, know about the speed of light?

interesting,huh?

2) I really dont think primitive people could build such a huge structure.Based on these informations from wikipedia:

The mass of the pyramid is estimated at 5.9 million tonnes. The volume, including an internal hillock, is roughly 2,500,000 cubic metres.[3] Based on these estimates, building this in 20 years would involve installing approximately 800 tonnes of stone every day. Similarly, since it consists of an estimated 2.3 million blocks, completing the building in 20 years would involve moving an average of more than 12 of the blocks into place each hour, day and night....

it is impossible to do it by primitive people without using some superhuman power or knowledge.

We talking about 2.3 millions of blocks weighting few tons each that had to be cut,brink into work place and put together to create such a giant pyramid. Come on guys... its impossible.. some blocks inside the kings chamber weight as much as 60 tons each !! i watched video of few people trying to push block of stone that weights only 3 tons and it was very hard for them to do it...so how is it posible that primitive people could lift a 60 tons block all the way up that is inside the kings chamber? the only explanation is that ancient egyptians could posses a secret knowledge how to reduce a weight of the block or even levitate them..without that..its not possible...

As far as #1: Numerical coincidence. The mile in "miles per hour" wouldn't be invented for thousands of years.

As far as #2: "The Vatican Obelisk -

At the center of the ovato tondo stands an Egyptian obelisk of red granite, 25.5 meters tall, supported on bronze lions and surmounted by the Chigi arms in bronze, in all 41 meters to the cross on its top. The obelisk was originally erected at Heliopolis by an unknown pharaoh of the Fifth dynasty of Egypt (c. 2494 BC – 2345 BC). During its history of c. 4400 years (at the start of the 2010s), the obelisk has been successfully moved 3 times."

That was from Wikipedia. Remember, it was moved 3 times successfully. It is 83 feet tall and weighed 331 tons. BY the last time it was moved written records were well in hand and make no mention of "a secret knowledge how to reduce a weight of the block or even levitate them..without that..its not possible...".

Wasn't it Archimedes who said, "Give me a lever long enough, and a fulcrum, and I could move the Earth."

Archimedes didn't invent the concept of leverage. Mechanical advantage was well known to the ancient Egyptians, as well as surveying.

Why some people denigrate the knowledge of the ancients is unknown to me.

(Not you Dreamland, just your sources.)

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As far as #1: Numerical coincidence. The mile in "miles per hour" wouldn't be invented for thousands of years.

As far as #2: "The Vatican Obelisk -

At the center of the ovato tondo stands an Egyptian obelisk of red granite, 25.5 meters tall, supported on bronze lions and surmounted by the Chigi arms in bronze, in all 41 meters to the cross on its top. The obelisk was originally erected at Heliopolis by an unknown pharaoh of the Fifth dynasty of Egypt (c. 2494 BC – 2345 BC). During its history of c. 4400 years (at the start of the 2010s), the obelisk has been successfully moved 3 times."

That was from Wikipedia. Remember, it was moved 3 times successfully. It is 83 feet tall and weighed 331 tons. BY the last time it was moved written records were well in hand and make no mention of "a secret knowledge how to reduce a weight of the block or even levitate them..without that..its not possible...".

Wasn't it Archimedes who said, "Give me a lever long enough, and a fulcrum, and I could move the Earth."

Archimedes didn't invent the concept of leverage. Mechanical advantage was well known to the ancient Egyptians, as well as surveying.

Why some people denigrate the knowledge of the ancients is unknown to me.

(Not you Dreamland, just your sources.)

just wondering what egyptian obelisk is doing in rome...why was it made in egypt and transported all the way to rome?

I found this very interesting picture :

http://www.lindahall...n_obelisk.shtml maybe this explaines how egyptians build pyramids....this reminds me of the picture of edward working on his coral castle seeing here : http://www.unsolvedrealm.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/coral-castle-tripod.jpg

He said: "I have discovered the secrets of the pyramids, and have found out how the Egyptians and the ancient builders in Peru, Yucatan, and Asia, with only primitive tools, raised and set in place blocks of stone weighing many tons!"

I found this interesting video on youtube of guy claiming he knows the secret...but all his informations are based on numbers and coral castle... just watch and see for yourself

Edited by dreamland

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On building the pyramids - When I was still young I am fond of playing dominoes, now these pieces of domino plastic blocks I sometimes assembled it forming together to form a small structure, but I cannot make it high the way I want it, a square form of structure will fail and lose its balence when already high, so I always comes up to form it like a pyramid shape this way i can build a higher structure because it is more steady. Come to think about it, I have a small brain then but I came up to that solution. Now on building a true pyramid why everybody is making it complicated even scientist I don't know are they real scientist? If you have a 2 ton of stone block and you have a 100 person to pull it up I think it still easy, 100 times 55 kilos each is more power to pull the stone up, maybe only 50 person can even do it.

I am brainiac, Einstein said Everything should be made simple as much as possible.

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There is a fine line between being uncertain and being unreasonably uncertain. If I drop a rock, it will fall to the ground. But, I can't be sure. Maybe an eagle will fly under it and carry the rock off. Maybe my nemesis will jump out and catch the rock to foil my scheme. But is it reasonable to say, on that basis, that I don't know what happens when I drop a rock? No, it is not.

That is what you are doing, Clad. Being unreasonably uncertain.

There must be a perfectly logical reason that no one claims to know how they were built.

There must be a logical reason no one can show evidence of ramps.

There must be a logical reason that ramps can be debunked.

There must be a logical reason they built five steps.

This concept that they must have used ramps is so intimately interwoven with Egyptological

beliefs that it can't be extracted. This is not reasonable. Every argument against "fringe" ideas

always comes back to "cultural context" which is extremely this and strictly interpretation. And

it comes back to ramps being the only possible means to support this so-called "context". They

could only have used ramps so they must have used ramps.

Dreamland's argument that aliens must have built the pyramids is not weakened by the argu-

ment that they must have used ramps or that the pyramid must have been easy enough to build

because it exists.

I beg to differ. While the evidence for aliens might not be great and I personally might not believe

it's powerful the fact remains it is as well evidenced as ramps. It is nearly as strong as any "cultural

context".

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On building the pyramids - When I was still young I am fond of playing dominoes, now these pieces of domino plastic blocks I sometimes assembled it forming together to form a small structure, but I cannot make it high the way I want it, a square form of structure will fail and lose its balence when already high, so I always comes up to form it like a pyramid shape this way i can build a higher structure because it is more steady. Come to think about it, I have a small brain then but I came up to that solution. Now on building a true pyramid why everybody is making it complicated even scientist I don't know are they real scientist? If you have a 2 ton of stone block and you have a 100 person to pull it up I think it still easy, 100 times 55 kilos each is more power to pull the stone up, maybe only 50 person can even do it.

I am brainiac, Einstein said Everything should be made simple as much as possible.

There's such a thing as too simple. If dragging a stone with ten men is extremely

hard then they can use thirty men to make it easy. But these men clog up your ramp

on the way up and coming back down. This means you'll need bigger ramps and more

ramp builders to build them. If you make their work easy with extra men then you have

even busier ramps and need even more ramp material.

I believe you run out of room long before you build enough ramps to do the job.

More importantly I know there's no evidence for ramps and that the word "ramp" isn't

even attested before the 5th dynasty. It's an unworkable theory unless you can believe

they could build ramps, use them, and leave no trace of evidence in the job titles, the

culture, or on the ground.

It could be true that ramps aren't impossible but it's also true that life on other planets

might be out there and they mighrt have visited earth. It's possible they built five step

pyramids because they had only 81' 3" ropes and had to pull the stones up the side. This

is what the evidence actually says; the stones were pulled up the side. Once people admit

this simple and obvious fact then I can say I don't believe that even using this efficient

means would allow enough manpower to be brought to bear.

Of course the ironic part is that since they know they must have used ramps no one will

even lookin the cave under the pyramid that might somehow contain clues to how they were

built. dr Hawass himself announced in 1996 that there are clues to how they were built in

the Osiris Shaft so why might there be no clues in this new cave?

Can I just say, Jeesh!!

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"Dreamland's argument that aliens must have built the pyramid"...can you show me where i post it?

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"Dreamland's argument that aliens must have built the pyramid"...can you show me where i post it?

It wasn't my intent to put words in your mouth. I should have phrased it differently.

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It wasn't my intent to put words in your mouth. I should have phrased it differently.

I never said aliens build pyramids,,i only said that it is possible that egyptian builders could have a knowledge from aliens how to build pyramids..I made a lot of great statements in this topic..and most of you just ignore it.. we need to study coral castle and the man who build it to find out how pyramids were build..i am surprise that noone here talks about coral castle.

http://coralcastle.com/

Edited by dreamland

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