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nopeda

Trying to think realistically

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God might not exist. That covers that. God might exist. That opens infinite possibilities. For years I've been trying to think realistically about how God could exist, and here is a list of basic ideas in an attempt to do so:

1. If God exists he almost certainly would have to be an alien.

2. If there is a creator associated with this planet, all

who refer to him refer to the same being regardless of what

they call him or what they think about him.

3. Nothing that happens is supernatural, so anything gods do

would be natural for them.

4. If God exists and wants things to be as they are, he

could not provide proof of his existence because doing

so would change things too much.

5. Since the terms omnipotent and omniscient appear to

make themselves impossible, it's unrealistic to try assigning

those particular characteristics to God if he exists.

6. Since disbelief is a form of belief, the degree of faith a

person has that God does not exist is what determines how

strong an atheist he or she is, or is not.

7. People who have put their faith in a belief often/usually find

it impossible to comprehend the ability of considering the possibility

that God does not exist and also the possibility that he does.

8. People who have put their faith in a belief often/usually find

it impossible to comprehend much less appreciate basic number 2.

9. People who claim to be strong atheists often/usually asburdly

try to deny their own faith that God does not exist...faith which is

a necessary part of being a strong atheist.

10. Whether God exists or not it seems apparent that life must have

originated from lifelessness to begin with, and may do it fairly often.

11. We should not allow what appear to be conflicting or unlikely

beliefs encouraged by other people--however absurd--to contaminate

and interfere with our own attempts to think about this topic

realistically.

12. We should not allow childlike and unrealistic attempts at comparing

the concept of gods with those of childlike ideas like the tooth fairy,

the Easter Bunny, invisible pink unicorns, spaghetti monsters etc

encouraged by other people--however absurd--to contaminate and interfere

with our own attempts to think about this topic realistically.

13. If gods exist they would necessarily have to be technologically

advanced far beyond we humans on Earth, to the point that they became

gods.

14. If God exists he almost certainly would not be restricted to any

particular body, form, or gender. (disclaimer: I refer to God as "he" out

of convenience and because that's how we are encouraged to refer to "him"

in most if not all canonical texts.)

15. If God exists it seems most likely that he has as much influence

over the content of canonical texts as he wants to have.

16. If God exists, it seems quite clear he makes use of the evolutionary

method of creation.

17. If there are things which people consider to be spiritual, they are

most likely actually physical in ways we just can't appreciate yet.

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You have missed one huge fact which kinda makes all your points obsolete. If God was real, then he would be everything and everyone and you're mind would not be able to comprehend what he actually is.

All your points are based on what you know and what Science knows at this very moment and when discussing "god" that is a huge error. As we don't know everything and we certainly cannot be sure that all our "science" is correct until we do know everything.

( I don't believe in God by the way)

Edited by Coffey
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@nopeda: all good stuff except for #17: why 'most likely'? Can you expand on this, please?

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Nice. Good guidelines. I have a few problems here and there, but I agree a whole lot.

#17 "physical is a label. Ultimate reality may bypass anything we would label as such. "Natural" might be a Better term in that context.

Also aliens and technology.... While I don't disagree that this is a possibility, we must consider the possibility that god can be a much larger organism in which we are apart of. Us being a nuron, a cell, or another part of the internal workings of a much more encompassing being. Potentially even a mental construct or virtual program.

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1. Under the argument that God is everything and everywhere, God would not be alien as God is universally located.

Interesting point on number 17. I'm with ouija on this one.

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If god is everything and everywhere, then yes god would be an alien. Also a dog, cat, bird, planet, star and blackwhole. Got think big... and small. As above, so below.

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If god is everything and everywhere, then yes god would be an alien. Also a dog, cat, bird, planet, star and blackwhole. Got think big... and small. As above, so below.

Right! But Alian? Really? What about multileveled?

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Nice. Good guidelines. I have a few problems here and there, but I agree a whole lot.

#17 "physical is a label. Ultimate reality may bypass anything we would label as such. "Natural" might be a Better term in that context.

Also aliens and technology.... While I don't disagree that this is a possibility, we must consider the possibility that god can be a much larger organism in which we are apart of. Us being a nuron, a cell, or another part of the internal workings of a much more encompassing being. Potentially even a mental construct or virtual program.

Maybe natural would be better. What I'm really pointing out is that it would not be supernatural.

From what I understand the Hindu belief is that this is a dream by the creator, and he wakes up every now and then... If we were part of a cell or something then it's not likely God would know or care about our existence though. I'll stick with the technology, unless he somehow eventually figured out how to overcome it. I feel that at some point God or beings before him would have had to develop it though.

Edited by nopeda

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Right! But Alian? Really? What about multileveled?

Why do people have a problem with that?

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@nopeda: all good stuff except for #17: why 'most likely'? Can you expand on this, please?

17. If there are things which people consider to be spiritual, they are

most likely actually physical in ways we just can't appreciate yet.

It's most likely they would be physical, but if some of them are things our brain is made to believe happened but they actually did not, it could be argued that that would not be physical. In some ways it would be (most likely), but the imagined events themselves wouldn't actually take place.

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I agree with 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 & disagree with 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 15 17.

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Maybe natural would be better. What I'm really pointing out is that it would not be supernatural.

From what I understand the Hindu belief is that this is a dream by the creator, and he wakes up every now and then... If we were part of a cell or something then it's not likely God would know or care about our existence though. I'll stick with the technology, unless he somehow eventually figured out how to overcome it. I feel that at some point God or beings before him would have had to develop it though.

Well I care about my cells, I try to take care of them, and if they were conciousnes I'd probably love them. If god is the whole it has no choice but to look inward.

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Why do people have a problem with that?

I think there is a possibility that the alians have been here Mabey even seeded life, but that dosnt constitute god, unless the alian comes from another universe perhaps and initiates this one. Even if we are a program in another beings computer, that still to me dosnt constitute a god even though it would be god like.

Consider the possibilities of a technological Singularity that happen trillions upon trillions of eons ago. A never ending cycle of slow progression of universes to evolve conciousness, then the conciousness taking concious control over its own evolution and continually expanding it exponentially.

In the documentary transcendence man Ray kurzwell thinks that we will evenchually manufacture tiny microscopic nano bots that remain connected to each other, are self replicating, and form immense ever growing network in which our own consciousnesses are downloaded into. He thinks one day the galaxy will "awaken" with this sort ever increasing technology.

I say in all of eternity, why hasnt it happened yet. I think it has. If a god like being can evolve, then it surely already has.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3U1MPQTpkI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Edited by Seeker79

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17. If there are things which people consider to be spiritual, they are

most likely actually physical in ways we just can't appreciate yet.

It's most likely they would be physical, but if some of them are things our brain is made to believe happened but they actually did not, it could be argued that that would not be physical. In some ways it would be (most likely), but the imagined events themselves wouldn't actually take place.

Sorry if I'm being thick, but I still don't get what you mean :hmm: . You seem to be equating 'spiritual' with 'imagined events' ....... is that what you think? And you still haven't said why you consider this to be 'most likely'.

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nopeda, on 19 December 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

17. If there are things which people consider to be spiritual, they are

most likely actually physical in ways we just can't appreciate yet.

It's most likely they would be physical, but if some of them are things our brain is made to believe happened but they actually did not, it could be argued that that would not be physical. In some ways it would be (most likely), but the imagined events themselves wouldn't actually take place.

Sorry if I'm being thick, but I still don't get what you mean :hmm: . You seem to be equating 'spiritual' with 'imagined events' ....... is that what you think? And you still haven't said why you consider this to be 'most likely'.

I say things that happen that seem spiritual to us can be physical in ways we're not aware of. Things that our brain believes happened because of outside influence could be physical in the chemical and electical manipulations that generate the illusions, while the percieved events never did physically take place.

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I think there is a possibility that the alians have been here Mabey even seeded life, but that dosnt constitute god, unless the alian comes from another universe perhaps and initiates this one. Even if we are a program in another beings computer, that still to me dosnt constitute a god even though it would be god like.

Consider the possibilities of a technological Singularity that happen trillions upon trillions of eons ago. A never ending cycle of slow progression of universes to evolve conciousness, then the conciousness taking concious control over its own evolution and continually expanding it exponentially.

In the documentary transcendence man Ray kurzwell thinks that we will evenchually manufacture tiny microscopic nano bots that remain connected to each other, are self replicating, and form immense ever growing network in which our own consciousnesses are downloaded into. He thinks one day the galaxy will "awaken" with this sort ever increasing technology.

I say in all of eternity, why hasnt it happened yet. I think it has. If a god like being can evolve, then it surely already has.

Not surely but it could have. If the universe is expanding and contracting beings who survive through the cycles and influence development during them could be considered gods imo. In order for them/God whatever to have significant impact he/they would have to be technologically advanced imo and that has to be developed, not all of a sudden just awakened to.

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nopeda, on 19 December 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

Maybe natural would be better. What I'm really pointing out is that it would not be supernatural.

From what I understand the Hindu belief is that this is a dream by the creator, and he wakes up every now and then... If we were part of a cell or something then it's not likely God would know or care about our existence though. I'll stick with the technology, unless he somehow eventually figured out how to overcome it. I feel that at some point God or beings before him would have had to develop it though.

Well I care about my cells, I try to take care of them, and if they were conciousnes I'd probably love them. If god is the whole it has no choice but to look inward.

We meaning neither of us know that or could know it. We would be on something below the cellular level. Way below it, not that anyone tries to communicate with their cells anyway.

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I say things that happen that seem spiritual to us can be physical in ways we're not aware of. Things that our brain believes happened because of outside influence could be physical in the chemical and electical manipulations that generate the illusions, while the percieved events never did physically take place.

Getting there, haha! Could you give some examples, please?

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God might not exist. That covers that. God might exist. That opens infinite possibilities. For years I've been trying to think realistically about how God could exist, and here is a list of basic ideas in an attempt to do so:

1. If God exists he almost certainly would have to be an alien.

Do you mean alien as in alien to humans, or do you mean an ET?

2. If there is a creator associated with this planet, all

who refer to him refer to the same being regardless of what

they call him or what they think about him.

3. Nothing that happens is supernatural, so anything gods do

would be natural for them.

4. If God exists and wants things to be as they are, he

could not provide proof of his existence because doing

so would change things too much.

We don't know what this presumed being wants, so we can't suppose the motives of this being's behavior.

5. Since the terms omnipotent and omniscient appear to

make themselves impossible, it's unrealistic to try assigning

those particular characteristics to God if he exists.

6. Since disbelief is a form of belief, the degree of faith a

person has that God does not exist is what determines how

strong an atheist he or she is, or is not.

Disbelief is the opposite of belief, not a form of belief. Disbelief is a state, not a degree of a condition. Either you're in or your out.

7. People who have put their faith in a belief often/usually find

it impossible to comprehend the ability of considering the possibility

that God does not exist and also the possibility that he does.

Ever heard of agnostics? It's quite a large group. While I have little faith and belief, I can certainly follow the logic & thinking of those whose beliefs are different from mine. In fact, I've reached my state of faith & disbelief by, among other things, considering and studying the beliefs of others.

8. People who have put their faith in a belief often/usually find

it impossible to comprehend much less appreciate basic number 2.

There's no basis in fact for this statement. I appreciate the thought, but it's really just an opinion, to which, of course, we're all entitled. This is not true of me, nor of most of my friends who care about this kind of thing.

9. People who claim to be strong atheists often/usually asburdly

try to deny their own faith that God does not exist...faith which is

a necessary part of being a strong atheist.

Atheism is not a faith, it is an absence of religious faith, usually reached by a long & thoughtful process. Of course they would deny that it is a faith, because it is not, see definition of atheism: The theory or belief that God does not exist. Notice the absence of the modifier "religious" in front of the word "belief."

10. Whether God exists or not it seems apparent that life must have

originated from lifelessness to begin with, and may do it fairly often.

11. We should not allow what appear to be conflicting or unlikely

beliefs encouraged by other people--however absurd--to contaminate

and interfere with our own attempts to think about this topic

realistically.

An untested belief system isn't worth much. How else do we learn & grow in our faith/religion if we don't engage in discourse with those whose opinions may differ from ours?

12. We should not allow childlike and unrealistic attempts at comparing

the concept of gods with those of childlike ideas like the tooth fairy,

the Easter Bunny, invisible pink unicorns, spaghetti monsters etc

encouraged by other people--however absurd--to contaminate and interfere

with our own attempts to think about this topic realistically.

13. If gods exist they would necessarily have to be technologically

advanced far beyond we humans on Earth, to the point that they became

gods.

Are you saying superior technology is a key component of a god?

14. If God exists he almost certainly would not be restricted to any

particular body, form, or gender. (disclaimer: I refer to God as "he" out

of convenience and because that's how we are encouraged to refer to "him"

in most if not all canonical texts.)

15. If God exists it seems most likely that he has as much influence

over the content of canonical texts as he wants to have.

That's a Christian fundamentalist belief, the god-breathed bible, which totally ignores man's own culpability and responsibility for creation of canonical text and the results of those actions.

16. If God exists, it seems quite clear he makes use of the evolutionary

method of creation.

17. If there are things which people consider to be spiritual, they are

most likely actually physical in ways we just can't appreciate yet.

I define spiritual as a state of being, not a thing, but yeah, I think many people view unexplained phenomena as a manifestation of the "spiritual" when the explanation that it's a natural occurrence, is just as likely. I would caution you not to assume that agnostics or atheists reach their conclusions without putting a lot of time & study & thought into it. They are most likely just as thoughtful and at least as smart as you or I, and didn't arrive at their conclusions casually.

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We always try to comprehend God logically, in a manner that we can physically interact with Him. If God is who He is, then logic would be defied every now and then.

Maybe He's a Being who doesn't follow our Earthly Laws, or the Univere's Laws. Maybe He is everywhere, in every little particle out there. Maybe He is the Universe, and we're just living within Him. Which sounds pretty odd, but who cares. :sk

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My beliefs have diminished to the concept of an informed, intelligent energy that permeates everything. I made a conscious decision to put aside everything I believed to be true, because I think it quite likely that I was only seeing what I've been trained to see and thinking what I've been trained to think, and these preconceptions of mine may prevent me from seeing what's actually there. It's an experiment which may or may not have any value, but I feel the need to reach any conclusions independent as much as possible from the influences of someone else's thinking or experiences. I've created an empty space, now I'm waiting to see if anything fills it.

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My beliefs have diminished to the concept of an informed, intelligent energy that permeates everything. I made a conscious decision to put aside everything I believed to be true, because I think it quite likely that I was only seeing what I've been trained to see and thinking what I've been trained to think, and these preconceptions of mine may prevent me from seeing what's actually there. It's an experiment which may or may not have any value, but I feel the need to reach any conclusions independent as much as possible from the influences of someone else's thinking or experiences. I've created an empty space, now I'm waiting to see if anything fills it.

I have to say, I don't think anything will ever fill it. I think you have actually achieved something quite remarkable. The Empty Space. That is about as real as it can get from my perspective. :)

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You could come to the conclusion of god if you work your way back through with a series of questions but do not use words use pictures.

Start from the right and work back to the left. When you get to where you can't ask anymore questions you found God. Now trying to actually put words to what God is well, good luck with that. Some people give up on asking questions way to soon and come out kind of fruity.

Start with a circle divide it in half is pretty much the basic idea of what god is(basically dividing by 0 and you wonder why calculators and people go insane when trying to figure it out)

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I have to say, I don't think anything will ever fill it. I think you have actually achieved something quite remarkable. The Empty Space. That is about as real as it can get from my perspective. :)

Actually nature abhors a vacuum, so I think something will fill it - if the space is truly empty, it will be something remarkable and likely indescribable.

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I have to say, I don't think anything will ever fill it. I think you have actually achieved something quite remarkable. The Empty Space. That is about as real as it can get from my perspective. :)

Actually, what's happening is it's being filled with ME, the closer-to-the-bone me. What's underneath all those preconceptions about who I am, my relationship with the world, the nature of the world, all the mind trips, is me. Creating that empty space, and it's probably not as empty as I think it is, was anxiety producing, but now it feels like a new beginning.

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