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SpiritWriter

Bible Study

26 posts in this topic

I love many parts of the bible but there is one chapter in particular I want to share this evening. I have shared it before on here, but I have no idea on what thread. Please read the following text and leave a comment regarding your interpretation of it. I think it can mean so many things... I love this chapter a lot. Thanks for bearing with me, maybe we could start a favorite scripture thread... that would be nice, or you can leave a scripture you love on here.. :)

If any should use this thread for debate, hate, or attempt to lack the desire for your most precious understand, please ignore them and bless us and encourage us with your words and the word of God. :)

Peace... please read and respond

Ezekiel 37 KJV

The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Sorry for the long text. I hope you like it. :)

Edited by SpiritWriter

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What was your own interpretation following these 28 verses?

I can't discuss it until you do. :)

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What was your own interpretation following these 28 verses?

I can't discuss it until you do. :)

You cant? Why?

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I have many interpretations.. the power of our own words to give life... the possibility of reincarnation, being born again spiritually, the visible spirit realm and the world of visions experienced by the prophets, the association of Isreal and gods people, the ultimate reunion of all nations to thier God, which is the promise...

Those are just boad topics I cant really delve futher at the moment, but now that I have shared a little, maybe you can too...

These are some very powerful words, it must speak to you some how, please share... )

Edited by SpiritWriter

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I'll come back later to discuss more.. hoping I get to read some more viewpoints when I return.

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My understanding of this prophecy is that it explains how Israel would be born again into their land and later how they would receive their King. The valley of the dry bones is about renewal in spite of all odds - a story of hope.

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It might be helpful to the understanding this passage, to know something of how ancient people thought. I think this explanation of the importance of bones to the spirit of the person is probably representative of how many ancient people saw this connection.

http://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/united-states/native-burials-human-rights-and-sacred-bones

Traditional Native Hawaiians believed n... iwi (the bones) to be the primary physical embodiment of a person. Following death, only n... iwi were considered sacred, for within the bones resided the person's mana (spiritual essence). Mana was greatly valued, and Native Hawaiians spent their lives maintaining and enhancing their mana. Thus, supreme care was accorded to iwi following death. Ancestral bones were guarded, respected, venerated, and even deified. It was believed that the 'uhane (spirit) of a person hovered near n... iwi. Desecration of n... iwi resulted in an insult to the 'uhane and trauma and harm to living descendants.

Here is another reference to spirit and bones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghosts_in_Chinese_culture

When someone dies, it is important to perform the correct rites to ensure that the departed ancestor does not become a wandering ghost. Since the corpse, or at least the bones, continues to have powers that could affect the fate of living relatives, an expert in feng-shui is needed to determine an auspicious time, place, and orientation of the burial.[24]

Also, this passage certainly is not about democracy. Sometimes I am amazed that we have democracy, despite what the bible says.

Edited by me-wonders

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Your OP has so many things that can be commented upon, and this link gives us the history of the moment.

http://www.keyway.ca...01/20010722.htm

One of the most misunderstood subjects of Bible study involves the total political division of "Israel" and "Judah" that occurred at the time of King Rehoboam. Before then, all twelve tribes of Israelites were a united kingdom through the reigns of David and Solomon, but after Solomon's death they split into two completely separate and independent kingdoms - the southern kingdom of "Judah," consisting of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, with part of Levi since the Levites were distributed among the other tribes (1 Kings 12:23) with their capital at Jerusalem, and the northern kingdom of "Israel," consisting of the other ten tribes (Reuben, Simeon, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Ephraim and Manasseh (Joseph was divided into Ephraim and Manasseh), with part of Levi since the Levites were distributed among the other tribes), with their capital up in Samaria.

Israel and Judah were never united again (see Kings of Israel and Judah). Surprisingly, they even fought wars against each other from time to time (see Jews At War With Israel). A very important fact that many do not realize is that Judah, that is, the Jewish people of today, are only one of the tribes of Israel - while all Jews are Israelites, not all Israelites are Jews.

Because of their forsaking of Him, God permitted the two kingdoms to be destroyed. First, the northern kingdom of Israel was gradually conquered by the Assyrians (see Ancient Empires - Assyria), and by 721 B.C. they had practically all been taken into exile to Assyria (2 Kings 17:1-23). The vast majority of them never returned, and have become known as the "Lost Ten Tribes of Israel."

Then, about 135 years later, by 586 B.C., the southern kingdom of Judah was completely conquered by the Babylonians (see Why Babylon?), and the people of Judah were taken into captivity to Babylon. The original Temple of God in Jerusalem was destroyed at that time (see Temples). The people of the southern kingdom of Judah however did return after the Babylonians fell to the Persians (see Ancient Empires - Persia), and their descendants have become the Jewish people of today - but that return in the time of Nehemiah, or the founding of the modern state of Israel in 1948, were not the fulfillment of the many prophecies dealing with the future (as the context of the prophecies clearly show) gathering of all of Israel, Israel and Judah.

We can understand this as natural. A main reason for banning together is protection. History is full of cultures that were wiped out because of the people would not unite. We know the Celtics and native Americans suffered the results of not uniting.

Commonly ancient people had patron gods and goddesses and believed their protection depended upon this god or goddess. They had to keep this god or goddesses happy or bad things would happen. When bad things did happen, the people would make efforts to appease the god or goddess. This what made Athenians agree to man the war ships, after the Persians destroyed Athenians temple. Before this the peasants would just flee invasion, leaving the wealthy and their paid armies to protect their private property. But when Athena's temple was destroyed, she had to be appeased, or the land would not produce and everyone would starve.

I think bible study that includes the beliefs and traditions at the time is very interesting. Anyway according to the story in the OP and history, the people failed to unite, so a God punished them. The explanation from the link, should say Cyprus of Persia was Zoroastrian, and he ordered Persia would pay for the rebuilding of the temple. Although Zoroastrianism is a different religion Cyprus accepted the Jews and people of God. That people be people of God was important to Zoroastrians, and eventually this religion blended with the Judaism, and became Christianity.

Edited by me-wonders

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Thankyou me wonders :) sorry I cant read it all right now but ill be back after work. Im excited to see what you have found.

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Dem bones dem bones dem dry bones set of a chord in my memory and a google search revealed

Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones,

Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones,

Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones,

Now shake dem skeleton bones!

The toe bone's connected to the foot bone,

The foot bone's connected to the ankle bone,

The ankle bone's connected to the leg bone,

Now shake dem skeleton bones!

The leg bone's connected to the knee bone,

The knee bone's connected to the thigh bone,

The thigh bone's connected to the hip bone,

Now shake dem skeleton bones!

Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones,

Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones,

Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones,

Now shake dem skeleton bones!

The hip bone's connected to the back bone

The back bone's connected to the neck bone,

The neck bone's connected to the head bone,

Now shake dem skeleton bones!

The finger bone's connected to the hand bone,

The hand bone's connected to the arm bone,

The arm bone's connected to the shoulder bone,

Now shake dem skeleton bones!

https://www.google.com.au/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=&oq=dem+bones+dem+bones+dem+dry+bones+lyrics&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLG_enAU309AU309&q=dem+bones+dem+bones+dem+dry+bones&gs_l=hp..0.0l4.0.0.1.77110...........0.Z5p_2IkUEbg

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Dem Bones, Dry Bones or Dem Dry Bones is a well-known traditional spiritual song. The melody was written by African-American author and songwriter James Weldon Johnson (1871–1938). Two versions of this traditional song are used widely, the second an abridgment of the first. The lyrics are based on Ezekiel 37:1-14, where the prophet visits the Valley of Dry Bones[1] and prophesies that they will become alive by God's command.

As to the meaning, I agree it seems to be a reference to the physical and spiritual resurrection of Israel and its people.

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Just remember, the Bible is not for private interpretation. It may have deeper meanings than that which is on the surface; but it has to mean the same things to you as it does to everyone generally. I believe the previous post is correct. It is a picture of Israel coming back to life as a nation and coming to know the Lord Jesus Christ.

Nice to read of your enthusiasm for the Word.

God bless us all is my prayer.

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I so object to the belief in Israel, because of what that means to the Palestinians and the rest of the non Jewish Semitic people. Rather, I think modern day Israel is a lesson in history, dating back to when the Romans chased them out and Israel became Palestine. The God of Israel is not everyone's God and that is the problem. If that were not the problem, everyone would be happily together, but no, land is taken from Palestinians and used solely for Jews.

Look the Muslims worship the same God, as do the Christians and Jews, but Israel is for Jews. How can we look at this and read the old testament, and believe the God of Abraham is any more than a tribal God? The God of Jesus is loving and forgiven and open to all, this is not the God of the old testament. And what has happened to the Palestinians is not right. There are Jews who believe when the time is right, God, will raise Israel, not the Zionist. I can not believe people who have caused the agony of Palestinians are people of God.

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I so object to the belief in Israel, because of what that means to the Palestinians and the rest of the non Jewish Semitic people. Rather, I think modern day Israel is a lesson in history, dating back to when the Romans chased them out and Israel became Palestine. The God of Israel is not everyone's God and that is the problem. If that were not the problem, everyone would be happily together, but no, land is taken from Palestinians and used solely for Jews.

Look the Muslims worship the same God, as do the Christians and Jews, but Israel is for Jews. How can we look at this and read the old testament, and believe the God of Abraham is any more than a tribal God? The God of Jesus is loving and forgiven and open to all, this is not the God of the old testament. And what has happened to the Palestinians is not right. There are Jews who believe when the time is right, God, will raise Israel, not the Zionist. I can not believe people who have caused the agony of Palestinians are people of God.

You are entitled to that opinion of course. But if the Zionists are usurpers and are so evil then why, do you suppose, God would allow them to stay in the land against all the odds against them? I think that the truth is closer to the concept that Zionism was just the human vehicle that was used to gather them back as predicted in Ez. 37. They are human beings like all others. Hard headed, spiteful, greedy, envious...fill in the blank. Being chosen by God is both a blessing (ultimately) but also a kind of curse in this world. To say that they, as a people, have not been THE MOST abused down through history is unsupportable IMO. The very land they were promised has become the source of all their problems as well. They will never know peace as long as they stay there and their enemies survive. The Jews of Israel are no more or less evil than any other group of people. They are just more motivated to grasp onto a safe place since they have a very real history of facing annihilation.

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You are entitled to that opinion of course. But if the Zionists are usurpers and are so evil then why, do you suppose, God would allow them to stay in the land against all the odds against them? I think that the truth is closer to the concept that Zionism was just the human vehicle that was used to gather them back as predicted in Ez. 37. They are human beings like all others. Hard headed, spiteful, greedy, envious...fill in the blank. Being chosen by God is both a blessing (ultimately) but also a kind of curse in this world. To say that they, as a people, have not been THE MOST abused down through history is unsupportable IMO. The very land they were promised has become the source of all their problems as well. They will never know peace as long as they stay there and their enemies survive. The Jews of Israel are no more or less evil than any other group of people. They are just more motivated to grasp onto a safe place since they have a very real history of facing annihilation.

Ah, other people have also been persecuted. This tends to happen when people segregated themselves. Puritans needed to come to the New Land to get away from persecution. Mormons moved west to the unsettled Utah area, to get away from persecution. The US assured freedom of religion, and made sure to have separation of church and state, because of all the persecutions and wars tied to religion. I think it now makes a terrible mistake by alining itself with a religious nation, that is in a land struggle with people of a different religion, instead of refusing to support Israel until it has equality without religious prejudice. I don't think God has anything to do with these human choices.

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Ah, other people have also been persecuted. This tends to happen when people segregated themselves. Puritans needed to come to the New Land to get away from persecution. Mormons moved west to the unsettled Utah area, to get away from persecution. The US assured freedom of religion, and made sure to have separation of church and state, because of all the persecutions and wars tied to religion. I think it now makes a terrible mistake by alining itself with a religious nation, that is in a land struggle with people of a different religion, instead of refusing to support Israel until it has equality without religious prejudice. I don't think God has anything to do with these human choices.

I agree i do not think the situation in the middle east has anything to do with god or religious support by god.

But then the usa does not support israel because it is jewish but because it is the closest thing to an american style democracy in the middle east. Politically it is the only really understandable state, in western terms, in the area. Western intelligence analysts can comprehend its motivations etc., and the dynamics of its governance.

Also israel is, in western historical terms, the underdog and good guy in the middle east wars and conflicts of the last 60 years. Finally, Israel has overwhelming political support among constituents in the usa, while arab states generate little sympathy or support.

Only modern revisionist arab propaganda paints a story of oppression by Israel. And of course modern israel doesnt help itself at times, But some arab states are still officially at war with israel; others have an official policy to destroy the state and people of israel. After ww2 America is not going to allow that to happen. And after the historical experience of the nazi genocide of jews their ghettoisation and pogroms, in ww2, neither will jewish people or the jewish state, ever let their survival be threatened by outside forces.

Unfortunately, it now appears that the arab spring will turn into a winter of discontent, as militant islamists take control in countries whose people fought for their freedom from tyranical leaders. If that happens then the relationship, i ncluding a military relationship, between america and israel will become stronger, more important and influential, in the middle east.

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I agree i do not think the situation in the middle east has anything to do with god or religious support by god.

But then the usa does not support israel because it is jewish but because it is the closest thing to an american style democracy in the middle east. Politically it is the only really understandable state, in western terms, in the area. Western intelligence analysts can comprehend its motivations etc., and the dynamics of its governance.

Also israel is, in western historical terms, the underdog and good guy in the middle east wars and conflicts of the last 60 years. Finally, Israel has overwhelming political support among constituents in the usa, while arab states generate little sympathy or support.

Only modern revisionist arab propaganda paints a story of oppression by Israel. And of course modern israel doesnt help itself at times, But some arab states are still officially at war with israel; others have an official policy to destroy the state and people of israel. After ww2 America is not going to allow that to happen. And after the historical experience of the nazi genocide of jews their ghettoisation and pogroms, in ww2, neither will jewish people or the jewish state, ever let their survival be threatened by outside forces.

Unfortunately, it now appears that the arab spring will turn into a winter of discontent, as militant islamists take control in countries whose people fought for their freedom from tyranical leaders. If that happens then the relationship, i ncluding a military relationship, between america and israel will become stronger, more important and influential, in the middle east.

I would like to believe you, but the USA tries to control politics in the mid east with the CIA and putting its pick of people in the leadership roles. These leaders are not democratic. Sadam was one of them, and US government's relationship with Saudi Arabia is strong.

No way is Israel the good guy. I wish other presidents would be as strong as Eisenhower was in withdrawing support from Israel. The Arab problem is an image one, and Turkey has been working hard to improve the image of Arabs in Turkey, because it wants Arab oil. I think we need to be better informed and should not rely on the media for information.

The opening up of our oil fields makes Arab countries less important to the US.. I am not sure how long this will last, but I expect our economy to improve and our interest in the mid east to decline. You know that debt we owe China? It looks like we will use oil to decrease that problem. http://money.cnn.com/2012/05/29/investing/china-oil-energy/index.htm Sorry, this is so off topic, but I can't control myself. It is not good for Israel or Arabs that the US be less dependent on Arab oil, and it is not good for Israel that Turkey is getting friendlier with the Arabs. Like if the US is less interested in Arab oil, that makes Israel less important to the US.

Edited by me-wonders

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I am feeling bad about taking things off topic, so here is another piece of Ezekiel.

http://www.satansrap...m/ezekwheel.htm

Ezekiel chapter One

1Now it came about in the thirtieth

year, on the fifth day of the fourth

month, while I was by the river Chebar

among the exiles, the heavens were

opened and I saw visions of God.

2 On the fifth of the month in the

fifth year of King Jehoiachin's exile,

3 the word of the LORD came expressly

to Ezekiel the priest, son of Buzi,

in the land of the Chaldeans by the

river Chebar; and there the hand of

the LORD came upon him.)

As I looked, behold, a whirl-

wind was coming from the north,

a great cloud with fire flashing

forth continually and a bright

light around it, and in its midst

something like glowing metal in

the midst of the fire.

5 Within it there were figures

resembling (J)four living beings

And this was their appearance:

they had human (K)form.

13 In the midst of the living

beings there was something that

looked like burning coals of

fire, like torches darting back

and forth among the living beings.

The fire was bright, and lightning

was flashing from the fire.

15 Now as I looked at the

living beings, behold, there was

one wheel on the earth beside the

living beings, for each of the four

16 The appearance of the

wheels and their workmanship was

like sparkling beryl, and all four

of them had the same form, their

appearance and workmanship being as

if one wheel were within another wheel

25 And there came a voice from

above the expanse that was over

their heads; whenever they stood still,

they dropped their wings.

26 Now above the expanse that

was over their heads there was

something resembling a throne,

like lapis lazuli in appearance;

and on that which resembled a

throne, high up, was a figure with

the appearance of a man.

27 Then I noticed from the

appearance of His loins and upward

something like glowing metal that

looked like fire all around within

it, and from the appearance of His

loins and downward I saw something

like fire; and there was a radiance

around Him.

28 As the appearance of the

rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day,

so was the appearance of the

surrounding radiance such was the

appearance of the likeness of the

glory of the LORD And when I saw it,

I fell on my face and heard

a voice speaking.

Edited by me-wonders
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Isrealis are people of God and all people are people of God... the bible describes these people as the chosen as well as the disobedient as well as the scorned as well as the redeemed as well as being raised up from stones (gentiles). When dealing with scriptural text we see this culture.. I do not think God excludes Isrealis from the heritage as one poster claims stating... but rather isrealite heritage is rich and steeped with the promises of god. God is not the god of one nation... and the text above, although it is derived from Israeli heritage does describe the joining of all people...

Matt 3:9

And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

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I would like to believe you, but the USA tries to control politics in the mid east with the CIA and putting its pick of people in the leadership roles. These leaders are not democratic. Sadam was one of them, and US government's relationship with Saudi Arabia is strong.

No way is Israel the good guy. I wish other presidents would be as strong as Eisenhower was in withdrawing support from Israel. The Arab problem is an image one, and Turkey has been working hard to improve the image of Arabs in Turkey, because it wants Arab oil. I think we need to be better informed and should not rely on the media for information.

The opening up of our oil fields makes Arab countries less important to the US.. I am not sure how long this will last, but I expect our economy to improve and our interest in the mid east to decline. You know that debt we owe China? It looks like we will use oil to decrease that problem. http://money.cnn.com/2012/05/29/investing/china-oil-energy/index.htm Sorry, this is so off topic, but I can't control myself. It is not good for Israel or Arabs that the US be less dependent on Arab oil, and it is not good for Israel that Turkey is getting friendlier with the Arabs. Like if the US is less interested in Arab oil, that makes Israel less important to the US.

There is so much historically that i disagree with in here, that i wil not argue with you. You are entitled to your own world view. I disagree with you about Us oil independence. I do not subscribe to the conspiracy theorists on US policy being driven by access to oil, but nonetheless, an indendent oil supply will assure a more neutral and disinterested US policy all around the world My one fear is that, without a need to take note of world events, the usa might slip back into the isolationist policies of the first half of the 20th century. Israels importance to the US has almost nothing to do with oil

I do agree with you about the US supporting dictatorships. Almost certainly their policy analysts have worked out that with a fall in such leaders there will be a rise in islamic states. Nonetheless, it is never good policy for a democracy to support a dictatorship. As islamist govts rise around the middle east, including especially in Egypt, Israel will become an increasingly important strategic, military and political ally of the US.

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There is so much historically that i disagree with in here, that i wil not argue with you. You are entitled to your own world view. I disagree with you about Us oil independence. I do not subscribe to the conspiracy theorists on US policy being driven by access to oil, but nonetheless, an indendent oil supply will assure a more neutral and disinterested US policy all around the world My one fear is that, without a need to take note of world events, the usa might slip back into the isolationist policies of the first half of the 20th century. Israels importance to the US has almost nothing to do with oil

I do agree with you about the US supporting dictatorships. Almost certainly their policy analysts have worked out that with a fall in such leaders there will be a rise in islamic states. Nonetheless, it is never good policy for a democracy to support a dictatorship. As islamist govts rise around the middle east, including especially in Egypt, Israel will become an increasingly important strategic, military and political ally of the US.

Well, I am not too comfortable with you saying "There is so much historically that i disagree with in here, that i wil not argue with you". How can I argue your points of argument if you do not state them? Strategically, Israel is very important. This is about more than oil but oil is so important to industrial countries, we can say, he who controls oil controls that world. Our interest in Israel seems to have gotten serious as a result of competition with the USSR. I think we need to be clear, this is competition for world resources and markets. The USA got involved to be sure Israel sided with the USA, not the USSR, but this is no longer a concern. Our relationship with Israel has been a a bit tricky, because Israel is not a democracy such as our own. The settlements are government built housing with factories that can pay lower wages, because of the reduced housing cost, and lower wages means a market advantage. We are talking socialism here.

Islam is not equal to communism, however, it does oppose banks being able to charge high interest rates, and this becomes a problem with capitalism. Education in many Muslim countries is nothing more than education in the Koran, and a religious world view, does not result in the scientific thinking essential to progress. This is all tied into economic conflicts, but they are less serious to the USA if the USA is not dependent on the mid east for oil. We should know thier oil money is tied to the treasury note and our economy. Like this is crazy, we don't want the oil countries to dump their treasury bonds, but the interest rate on them is too low, and if these countries aren't making big profits they can not continue to buy our treasury bonds. The trouble we have had with OPEC over Israel has really been n economic problem for us.

Producing our oil, seems the lesser of evils. Producing our own oil and selling it to China, certainly has to relieve our debt problem with China.

But why would Israel become increasingly important to the USA? I don't see that happening if we are oil independent. Strong relations with the Turkey, the Arabs, Chinese and India seems much more important than a relationship with Israel.

Edited by me-wonders

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There is a political forum on UM.

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And I dont say that to say that the current affairs of isreal, as well as the US involvement are not interesting or important but really it seems more like a discussion of politics and not bible study. not that these things cant go hand in hand in some venues, but they really are two different discussions

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Well, I am not too comfortable with you saying "There is so much historically that i disagree with in here, that i wil not argue with you". How can I argue your points of argument if you do not state them? Strategically, Israel is very important. This is about more than oil but oil is so important to industrial countries, we can say, he who controls oil controls that world. Our interest in Israel seems to have gotten serious as a result of competition with the USSR. I think we need to be clear, this is competition for world resources and markets. The USA got involved to be sure Israel sided with the USA, not the USSR, but this is no longer a concern. Our relationship with Israel has been a a bit tricky, because Israel is not a democracy such as our own. The settlements are government built housing with factories that can pay lower wages, because of the reduced housing cost, and lower wages means a market advantage. We are talking socialism here.

Islam is not equal to communism, however, it does oppose banks being able to charge high interest rates, and this becomes a problem with capitalism. Education in many Muslim countries is nothing more than education in the Koran, and a religious world view, does not result in the scientific thinking essential to progress. This is all tied into economic conflicts, but they are less serious to the USA if the USA is not dependent on the mid east for oil. We should know thier oil money is tied to the treasury note and our economy. Like this is crazy, we don't want the oil countries to dump their treasury bonds, but the interest rate on them is too low, and if these countries aren't making big profits they can not continue to buy our treasury bonds. The trouble we have had with OPEC over Israel has really been n economic problem for us.

Producing our oil, seems the lesser of evils. Producing our own oil and selling it to China, certainly has to relieve our debt problem with China.

But why would Israel become increasingly important to the USA? I don't see that happening if we are oil independent. Strong relations with the Turkey, the Arabs, Chinese and India seems much more important than a relationship with Israel.

Auastralia isn't a democracy like the usa either, but it is a democracy and a working one. It is a socialist democracy which also provides cheap public haousing for millions of its citizens, and as such has many more benevolent features than america. We do have a universal health care system and have had for many decades, for example

So is israel a democracy, which makes it different to almost every other midle east state.

When i said i didnt want to argue with your pov it is because the israeli /palestinian question is more emotive than anything.

Factually israel was created by international mandate and given a small piecee of historical jewish land for a home land That are was occupied by long time arab peole and new jewish setlers.

The arab peole within that territory could remain and become citizens of the state and still can.

However a number of surounding arab states did not accept the partition and saw israel as weak enough to be easily defeated.

Over the decades, despite overwhelming military odds, the arabs lost succecisive attacks on israel. Each time, not only did israel gain a lot more territory, but also its attitude to its defence hardened. Even so they traded back a lot of land in return for promises of peace.

Those promises were never kept. While the nation states around israel no longer attacked her, they used proxy forces like hezbolah to do so and some never signed a peace treaty remaining technically at war with Israel MAny have as part of their national publicpolicy the destruction of Israel and her people. Israel has no such policies or agenda

Ultimately arabs must accept the partion of palestine and the existence of israel as a nation state. Otherwise they will always b\e at war and almost certainly continually the losers in that war, in many many ways which harm their own people.

Israel will become more important to america because america's foreign policy is not, and never has been, primarily driven by oil. It is driven by national security, of which oil is a minor but important part, and by the voters /american publics perception of international afffairs. As a non arab democracy in a sea of islamic states, and a jewish nation as opposed to an islamic one, israel will grow more popular in terms of strategic interest and in american popular opinion.

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And I dont say that to say that the current affairs of isreal, as well as the US involvement are not interesting or important but really it seems more like a discussion of politics and not bible study. not that these things cant go hand in hand in some venues, but they really are two different discussions

MAny people believe that the role and nature of modern israel is directly tied to biblical prophecy and to the real future of the world. I do not agree, but because that linkage is there and very strong in some peoples minds, the link between modern politics and biblical study is valid. Arguably, the very prophecy you used in the OP refers to this situation and time.

There is at least one minor church which bases its main teachings on this concept, and many fundamentalists from a lot of churches make a similar connection. Others argue that christians are the modern israel, while others argue than any follower of god under the new covenant is a modern israelite in terms of biblical prophecy.

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I understand and thank you for your contribution. Just goes to show the deep, never ending topics that can come with the text.

Edited by SpiritWriter

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