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Vincennes

Spreckel Mansion Death/Suicide

344 posts in this topic

Do we know what the current position is with the case? Are the Zahaus and the Shacknais still trying to get it reopened or has it been declared closed with no avenue left for the families to go down?

Yes, I think we can agree on the 6 points that you made, at the very least. And yes, I see no reason why we can't moved forward on the assumption that those points are the truth ....... there's nothing to stop us changing any point at any time if we come across more information that suggests a change.

Sorry, can't do any more tonight ...... I have to go to bed! Goodnight.

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The last I heard they were all together, Rebecca's parents, Max's mother and even Jonas... were all together in asking for a review of the facts and reopening of Rebecca's ccase. . What I read re. Jonas's view point was that it was really hurting him businesswise to have these questions remaining.... But It was only the mother that had been forced to sue for Max's autopsy results. Her lawsuit... was for no money.... just for the findings.... I think that amount of resistance on the part of the police was really unbelieveable !!

And I hope both you and Antilles know when I ennumerate things, in no way am I trying to "take over" the thread..... No, not after the history of this thread., it doesn't need another judge~ .. It is just good when I read back that I think we agree on so much! Tell me if I'm wrong please....... I just thought it would be beneficial to bring our findings/beliefs together and go from there,.... I have to go back and reacquaint myself with facts.

I'm so excited now about really having an honest debate of the facts !!! When this happened None of my friends are into the "Unsolved"... I had no one to ever discuss it with... didn't know UM then...

Antilles, you brought up those knots way back in the beginning of the thread. Could you share what t do you know about that type of knot?

Edited by Duncansmom

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I don't honestly know that much about that type of knot! If you look at the crime scene photos, that just seems to be a really complicated way for a 26 year old girl to commit suicide.

Look, I'm leaning towards the she had help angle but I'm still not convinced it wasn't her own intention. The boy died and she was there. She lied about giving him CPR. I've not read anything that convinces me her brothers, either one of them, killed her or at least had a motive to kill her.

I still believe that this whole case revolves around the little boy's death.

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I haven't had much time for detective work today. However, I did find a site www.radaronline.com that has a wealth of informaition, including a sheriff's deputy reenacting how those knots were tied.....I went back a moment and looked at them.... for someone in the process of hanging themself, they are might precise! There's also a story regarding the set of her footprints on the balcony left cleted (sp.) prints. She must have been wearing her work boots are basketball shoes when she went out on the balcony. Didn't have time to read all yet but I thought I'd put this site out there if anyone else wants to take a look.

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I don't honestly know that much about that type of knot! If you look at the crime scene photos, that just seems to be a really complicated way for a 26 year old girl to commit suicide.

I've not read anything that convinces me her brothers, either one of them, killed her or at least had a motive to kill her.

Antilles, no one's bothered to correct you with the facts.

I don't know if it would make a difference to you, but Zahau was 32.

Anyway, my own opinion about that is that I don't find the bindings around the ankles and wrists complicated; I find that the wrappings were excessive- 6 loops around rt. ankle, 8 around lft.; 5 loops around rt. wrist, and 6 around left.

Personally, I don't think anyone proficient with rope would be unnecessarily excessive. (Also, I fail to find a purpose for it in the first place.)

The autopsy report described the knot around the bed leg/frame as "a simple slip loop". (Interesting to me, the body was unclothed but wore three bands on the wrists. Left wrist- a black band that read "Bionic", and a yellow "Livestrong" band, and on the right wrist was one that read "Power Balance".)

The brothers are Max's father- Jonah Shacknai, and his brother, Adam, and Zahau was not legally married to Jonah Shacknai.

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Have you looked at the knots around the bed post? I dont' think any knoting could be more precise.

Regi: You have posted again and again that you see no reason for this discussion. In every post you state that you find everything in the police and autopsy reports to be accurate. I have to mention here that all of the parties directly concerned have asked repeatedly that the investigation be reopened, stating in their minds it is not complete.

With all due respect I have to ask why you continue to post to this discussion? You could just make one post saying that everything we are discussing is wrong and be done with it. Maybe you are not aware that your replies have again and again seemed to be disrespectful to our right to even discuss the matter. I don't think any of the other people in this thread enter their posts for the purpose of having an arguement with anyone. If you would like to take a meaningful part in the discussion, it would be welcomed. But since that does not seem to be the case, may I then sincerely ask, since your mind seems to be quite made up as you just posted again "You fail to find any purpose in discussing this," that you please act on your own decision.

Thank you!

Edited by Duncansmom

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Damn that is a very strange case. Lot of twists and turns.

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regi, where did I get 26 from? You're right, she was 32. She had also been convicted of shoplifting in 2009. I'm just adding that because I've been back reading and I hadn't noticed that before. Nothing to do with her death, just interesting.

http://www.utsandieg...coon-boyfriend/

This is way back from the start of this thread. If Schaknai is so rich, why did she quit her job in December? To look after his kids? She was his girlfriend, not his nanny.

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Well... maybe... LOL Rebecca fell over her own feel making no footprints while strangling herself with the teeshirt around her neck.... reasonable... All reasonable...

But was she 26 or 32 when she did so???? Oh, gosh, I'm so sorry I brought this topic up... !d

Edited by Duncansmom

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I apologize for the typo...Should be" She fell over her own feet while hanging herself at 32 rather than 26....That would also explain the cleet marks in the footprints on the balcony????

She was older so she was wearing heavier shoes? I think Antilles' initial comment was the pertinent question. What possible difference does her age make?

Edited by Duncansmom

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Well, if there were cleet marks on the balcony DM, they wouldn't have been from her work shoes because she'd been working at an optometrist before she ditched her job. So, where did they come from?

Is there any way to get info from the authorities that is actually accurate? There are so many different stories out there, sometimes I wonder if they're from the same case.

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Regi: You have posted again and again that you see no reason for this discussion. In every post you state that you find everything in the police and autopsy reports to be accurate.

With all due respect I have to ask why you continue to post to this discussion? You could just make one post saying that everything we are discussing is wrong and be done with it. Maybe you are not aware that your replies have again and again seemed to be disrespectful to our right to even discuss the matter. I don't think any of the other people in this thread enter their posts for the purpose of having an arguement with anyone. If you would like to take a meaningful part in the discussion, it would be welcomed. But since that does not seem to be the case, may I then sincerely ask, since your mind seems to be quite made up as you just posted again "You fail to find any purpose in discussing this," that you please act on your own decision.

Thank you!

I don't know where you get the nerve to even address me, much less with words such as respect, and you know EXACTLY what I'm referring to.

I NEVER posted anything of the sort "again and again", and STOP misquoting me.

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regi, where did I get 26 from? You're right, she was 32. She had also been convicted of shoplifting in 2009. I'm just adding that because I've been back reading and I hadn't noticed that before. Nothing to do with her death, just interesting.

http://www.utsandieg...coon-boyfriend/

This is way back from the start of this thread. If Schaknai is so rich, why did she quit her job in December? To look after his kids? She was his girlfriend, not his nanny.

I don't know...I suppose Zahau did what she wanted to do.

I don't know what the arrangements were between Sacknai and his two former wives re: custody of their children. (From what I understand, he had a couple of older children from a first marriage, and then, Max from his second marriage.)

The older children had apparently been visiting for sometime up until the morning of the incident involving Max; Shacknai, with Max had taken the older children to the airport that very morning.

I think Zahau's sister had arrived in the days immediately previous to the incident for a two week visit.

Shacknai, Max, and Zahau had just arrived at the home themselves around Memorial day, and were to be there until around Labor Day.

Anyway...

Re: where you got 26 from. I don't know...Of course, I never make such errors :whistle:

I do know that there's a lot of misinformation out there and you know, it's paramount to stay accurate. :tu:

Edited by regi

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Well, if there were cleet marks on the balcony DM, they wouldn't have been from her work shoes because she'd been working at an optometrist before she ditched her job. So, where did they come from?

Antilles, there weren't cleet marks.

From the autopsy report: "The floor of the balcony was very dirty, and two bare footprints consistent with the decedents dirty bare feet were visible in the dirt just outside the door frame, with heels together and the toes out in the shape of a "V". Toe prints, apparently from the right foot, were close to the balcony railing and with the point at which the rope hung over the balcony. Other than a clearly visible matched police officer's fresh boot print, no other foot or shoe prints were seen on the balcony. In other words, only footprints consistent with the decedent's bound feet were found on the balcony, and there were no other footprints (other than the officer's) or evidence of a struggle."

Edited by regi

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After spending many hours last night trawling through information about this case I have more questions and more thoughts about it:

There were two things which really stuck out. The first was: after driving myself nuts trying to imagine how Rebecca tied herself up, got herself to the balcony and then tipped herself over it, I suddenly thought "never mind the HOW what about the WHY!!". Why, why,WHY in heaven's name would Rebecca tie her ankles and wrists? In what way does that benefit her? All it does is hinder her efforts, surely? (Assuming she was trying to kill herself). I believe she was tied so that her murderer/murderers could better handle her .... same goes for being gagged.

The second big thing for me was: looking at an ariel view of the 'Sprenkels' property, there was quite a large house identified as 'Caretaker's living quarters', on the same 'block' as the balcony room and not many yards from it. Did Jonah Shacknai employ a caretaker(am I right in thinking this was only a summer home for the Shacknais?), and if he did, where was he/she at the time of either murder? If such a person was employed, presumably they would have keys for every lock on the property? Did this person(if they exist!), dislike Rebecca and/or Max? Were they in cahoots with one(or more), family member?

I tried to construct a 'Timeline' for some of the events of the night of the 12th/13th, but it was quite difficult because the reports I found contradicted themselves quite a bit. This is my best shot: on the evening of the 12th, Adam, Rebecca and Jonah went out to dinner together. Jonah returned to the hospital at 10pm. At 12:50am on the 13th, Jonah texted(?) Rebecca to tell her that Max had taken a turn for the worse and possibly wouldn't live for much longer. At 1:55am on 13th, Jonah left the hospital and got a room in a nearby hotel. Jonah returned to the hospital at 5:30 - 6am on the 13th. At 6:48am on the 13th, Adam texted Jonah to say Rebecca was dead. When police arrived at the scene, rigor mortis had already set into Rebecca's jaw, which suggested she had died approx. 3 to 4 hours earlier.

It seems odd to me that Jonah would take himself off to a hotel to sleep when less than an hour before he had been told that Max had 'deteriorated rapidly' and probably wouldn't live much longer .......... or at least that is what he told Rebecca (in a text), the situation was. Was this, in fact, not the case, but Jonah exaggerated Max's condition(in the text to her), so that when it(the text), was found it would appear to be a good reason for Rebecca to kill herself? (In fact this was repeatedly put forward as the only reason). Jonah's pronouncement after Rebecca's death, that he had been planning to ask her to marry him(did he tell anyone else he was thinking of doing that?), would, as it were, 'cancel out' the possibility he was trying to 'tip her over the edge' into suicide by sending her an exaggerated text.

Concerning the length of rope used from the bed to Rebecca's neck ....... anyone else think it seems overly long? (Looking at what is left of it hanging over the balcony, seen from outside). I tried to put myself in the position of judging how much rope I would use so that I could be absolutely sure that my feet wouldn't touch the ground(and defeat the object of the exercise). I think I would try to have my head pretty close to the top of the railings, maybe 18" below.

The original autopsy stated that Rebecca was alive when she went over the railings and her neck injuries were consistent with a drop from that height. The second autopsy disputed this: 'If the body had plummeted down, the cervical vertebrae would have broken from the base of the skull'. Maybe she never was hanging, or maybe she was placed in position carefully by someone(possibly two people)?

Regarding the bare footprints on the balcony floor: they look kinda big for a 5' 3" woman! Did the police actually measure Rebecca's feet, I wonder? Or did they hold one of her shoes beside it? That wouldn't be very accurate. Could the prints have been made by one of Jonah's older children who had been staying at the house just a few days before? Was the dirt on Rebecca's feet from the path below the balcony, either from walking there or from when Adam cut her down? And what happened between her standing at the balcony doors(feet together at the heels, presumably tied), and the SINGLE footprint right close to the railings? She couldn't have tipped herself over the railings from the 'heels together' position, it's too far away. So how does a SINGLE footprint appear when her ankles are tied together? And she certainly couldn't have tied them after she'd fallen!

I think I'm right in saying that the police said that Rebecca had no marks on her body apart from little cuts on her toes(and presumably a mark around her neck?), and yet surely, when she was tipping herself over the wrought iron balcony railings, with her wrists and ankles tied, naked, she couldn't help but scratch and bruise her upper torso? If her hands and feet had been free she could have made the manoeuvre slowly and carefully, in stages.

Haha! I've just been doing some 're-enactments' of my own, over the back of my sofa! I stood behind the sofa and pretended it was the balcony railings, I clasped my hands together behind my back as if they were tied and clamped my ankles together. I can tell you that I am even more convinced that Rebecca could not have done what the police claim she did! I am 5' 6", so 3" taller than Rebecca, and my sofa back is quite a bit lower than the balcony railings(which I'm assuming are a decent height so that average-sized people can't fall over them easily ...... Rebecca was a small person), and yet I found it impossible to tip myself onto the sofa whilst my ankles and wrists were effectively 'tied up'. If you are forced to keep your legs together and your arms are fixed behind your back, you can't do the shift in balance and position required to have enough weight high enough up to tip you over.

Other bits and bobs that caught my attention:

Twins called 'Nina' and 'Dina'? Seriously? What were their parents thinking? :lol:

On 'Radarline' it mentioned that Max's neck was broken ........ anyone know if that is a fact?

Adam's polygraph test was declared 'inconclusive'. The Zanau family(I think), are pushing for him to take another test with different questions.

The police removed(amongst other items), a wooden table leg from the property. Presumably this was from the table just under the balcony ...... did it break because Adam or someone else stood on the table(and not necessarily to cut Rebecca down)? Adam said that he moved the table to be able to get to her body. I wonder if Rebecca was hit with the table leg? This assumes Adam was lying.

I wonder if Nina and Adam carried out the murder together? Remember Nina lied about the time(by over an hour), that she texted Rebecca on the evening/night of the 12th. (I wonder what size feet Nina has?!). They could certainly have carried Rebecca easily between them ....... especially with her ankles and wrists tied and a gag in her mouth to stop her screaming.

'She saved him can you save her' : does anyone know if this was literally painted over(on the door), or if the picture we see is photoshopped/digitally 'painted' over? Who is the 'she' and who is the 'him'?

The bedroom chair was lying on it's side, away from the balcony doors ........ don't know if this has any significance or not.

Were the balcony doors shut or open when Adam found Rebecca hanging?

Police made a thing out of Rebecca's DNA and fingerprints being all around the crime scene(i.e. the guest bedroom), well YEAH, she lived in that house! But also that her 'profile' was the only one there ....... how can that be when there had been at least half a dozen people staying there(up to the morning of Max's death). And so easy for the murderer/ murderers to wear gloves whilst committing the crime. Various latex gloves were taken from the house by the police.

Well, that's me done for now! :D

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Wow, Ouija... You have quite a good post there ~!! I havent even finished it yet but I had to say that I thought exactly the same thing regarding the length of the rope !!!

When I first read that.... my thought was "Well she cut it a bit long there...She almost could have hit the ground" !!! What you said about it also really got to me... I'll finish reading and add more to this I'm sure

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Ok we all know that Becky was murdered but why. Did she know the truth about what really happened to Max? Was she silenced to protect someone ?

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I was thinking about Ouija throwing herself over her couch. LOL. That is some good investgating.

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Wolfie - That is some good investigation. She threw herself into it, so to speak... I'm upset however, because I did another entire post here that is not showing up... Now I will have to do it again..... but your post was so good,Ouija, I will.

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I think Zahau was forced to kill herself because of her peripheral involvement in the death of Max Shaknai.

The long version of my theory makes perfect sense from a human standpoint: There is something that connects Zahau to Shaknai’s accident inside the mansion that allows the family members of Max to point the finger of blame at Rebecca. That finger was the duress Zahau was under when she killed herself.

If she were made an offer she couldn’t refuse and resigned herself to accepting it, she could try to make her suicide look like murder. That would explain the improbability of the physical nature of her suicide. A naked body hanging from a balcony by electrical cord seems impromptu and mean, like an unplanned crime of passion. For some reason, Zahau wanted her suicide to look and feel like murder. Whatever it is she wanted to accomplish with this final act was something she couldn’t write down. She knew she couldn’t write it down.

Edited by wolfknight

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I think Zahau was forced to kill herself because of her peripheral involvement in the death of Max Shaknai.

The long version of my theory makes perfect sense from a human standpoint: There is something that connects Zahau to Shaknai’s accident inside the mansion that allows the family members of Max to point the finger of blame at Rebecca. That finger was the duress Zahau was under when she killed herself.

If she were made an offer she couldn’t refuse and resigned herself to accepting it, she could try to make her suicide look like murder. That would explain the improbability of the physical nature of her suicide. A naked body hanging from a balcony by electrical cord seems impromptu and mean, like an unplanned crime of passion. For some reason, Zahau wanted her suicide to look and feel like murder. Whatever it is she wanted to accomplish with this final act was something she couldn’t write down. She knew she couldn’t write it down.

I agree with some of the things you say there. Rebecca may or may not have murdered Max ...... she may simply have not taken proper care of him, or thought that her younger sister was keeping him out of mischief while she(Rebecca) was in the shower. Whichever way it happened, one or more of the Shaknai family could have blamed her and decided to murder her.

It did cross my mind that it was a suicide made to look like murder, and I also wondered if she decided to kill herself because she blamed herself for not taking proper care of him, and quite simply that she would miss little Max ...... it sounds as if they got on well.

But the bottom line for me is still: I don't believe it would be possible for someone to tip themselves over the balcony railing whilst their wrists and ankles are bound. Plus, that scenario doesn't fit with the footprints on the balcony.

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okay, I'm back to where I was at 11:00 am this morning.....

I was so taken back by the fact that you noticed the length of that rope. When I read that and remembered my thoughts were actually "Oh, God, that looks what I would have done to myself." That is, here I am Lord, now I have thrown myself naked over this balcony... only to be here flapping like a fish on the lawn... and you know God.. I'm naked... I've now only hurt my back and I don't have a key to get back in! All,Please know here, I'm only laffn here at myself! The fact that came to both of us... is a real pause.....

Now I'm taking your post... point by point again.....because I guess I am too dumb to post it correctly in the first place !!!

Could what you are now seeing as the "Caretaker House", refer to the "Guest House" Adam was taken to the night Rebecca died. I know we have those who reverance the police reports... but I thought that portion of the report seemed sloppy to the point of a last minute cut.... It talks about the "Guest House" and the fact Adam's bedroom was not slept in... Then it abruptly seems to jump to talking about a "Guest Bedroom".. where the panties were found.... I never could figure which "house" this Guest Bedroom was in the main house or the Guest House ..... Are they then talking about the room that Rebecca committed suicide in???? Is that a Guest Bedroom but in the main house ???? I'm certain I can be corrected on this as the reports are all valid on that date and have been stamped in... and ... accepted. Regi: You are on....The report jumps .. from here to there... but Reg You quote them so well, I will leave this to you.

Your Timeline is Great:

I never knew Rebecca and Jonah went out to dinner that night and they returned at approx 10:00 p.m.... That would have been close to when twin "NINA" ha! said she was at the house looking for Rebecca!

Nor did I ever know Jonah left the hospital at 1:55 AM for a "hotel" and didn't return until 6-6:30 that morning.

Wouldn't that put him in the immediate time window Rebecca died? If Adam's text went out at 6:48 to Rebecca - and the police, autopsy report says she was dead 3 - 4 hours. before being cut down That would put Jonah in the time window of opportunity.

Yes, to me it does seem odd Jonah would leave a hospital just having been told his son is in the dying process to then go for sleep in a hotel...

Did he do this with his ex wife? I don't see a rationale for that...Although I think he might have been mad enough he didn't need help....but to me that type of an Execs personality doesn't go back to left over wives for support. They just don't

Regi: You can work on this didn't happen.... quote reference links of times please and give links to "reports" you quote....It will keep you busy rather than thinking of how to be just contradictory.

I do agree with what your thoughts on perhaps it was just Jonah making the comments, "Ah, shucks, I was just about to propose to that girl" Who else did he say that to or would that just be another log to cement his alibi? Now that you have established a timeframe?

The length of the rope.... Now, you all know I can't go there again..It was bad to laf.. However, although it is on the record as disputed, those knots around the bedpost are pretty darn exact... Why would the length of rope then be so far off? Since this was the length of rope....... actually measured in all of the reports........How then did she hit her head 3 -4 times going over.... It was not as I had earlier suggested, a bungie cord.....Her neck was not broken as if she bounced up... or.... as Regi would have it... as if she even bounced to the side of her head... How did she incur these injuries??? Was she, in fact, slid over the balcony... while unconscious from the head injuries???? Which would account for the bleeding... She didn't bleed in the bedroom because she was lying down... When she was placed in an abrupt vertical position... the blood that had gathered flowed out and down her legs....I have always been told that's how they distinguish between injuries before death and after... You don't bleed after you are dead.... Blood had ran down her thighs......Ball in your court Regi.... or I will give you a pass, just post DM is stupid and everything she has replied is wrong and and move along... I don't want to tax you.

To me, that would both account for both autopsy reports being correct. She was alive when she went over the railing... and the second...she was slid over it... and then strangled to death.

Oh, gosh, those footprints. I was totally incorrect in calling the prints of those sole cleets.... But why are the prints on the balcony included in any autopsy? I can see that" the body was found hanging" should be included.... but descriptions of the prints in the perimeter.... Seems to me a reach....Regi, You were talking about the autopsy,correct and not the police report? I don't want to misquote.... Were they Rebecca's size.... Good question. My thoughts a while back when I asked, did she tie herself up in the bedroom and give one big HOP

to the balcony, land precisely, then... go over.... No fudging around putting other feet down?.....

I'm now tired, as I have endeavored to respond to Ouija post today twice.... You did all of this O and I was to infirm to get my response posted correctly! BRAVO!

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I'm back here with you guys.... Did that darn repost again.... ...

but I don't see any substantiating facts for she was made to commit suicide...Maybe I am misunderstanding here.... Maybe you guys mean she was made to kill herself..... That I can see, all over the place.

I forgot to add in my post.... and I'm never, ever going back there again..... the suicide note on the door. Do we know why it is blocked out in all photos? The only place I have seen what the text was .. was in an interview with Rebecca's former husband... As far as I know, he is the source of the quote. He went on to say it was in a block style printing that he hade neer known Rebecca to use.... Anyone else found another source to authenticate it?

Edited by Duncansmom

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I'm back here with you guys.... Did that darn repost again.... ...

but I don't see any substantiating facts for she was made to commit suicide...Maybe I am misunderstanding here.... Maybe you guys mean she was made to kill herself..... That I can see, all over the place.

I forgot to add in my post.... and I'm never, ever going back there again..... the suicide note on the door. Do we know why it is blocked out in all photos? The only place I have seen what the text was .. was in an interview with Rebecca's former husband... As far as I know, he is the source of the quote. He went on to say it was in a block style printing that he hade neer known Rebecca to use.... Anyone else found another source to authenticate it?

The only thing about it not being a writing style Rebecca would use: I think if you were trying to write with paint straight from the tube on a stiff, stubby brush, then quite large capitals would be the best anybody could manage. You certainly wouldn't be able to use a flowing cursive rounded style.

I read a comment somewhere that the writing was too high for it to have been Rebecca, but I don't agree with that. I think if you wanted to make an eye-catching statement(and it's certainly that, being as cryptic as it is), then you would do it as high as was still comfortable.

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