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Vincennes

Spreckel Mansion Death/Suicide

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I'm not sure that 911 would have had the address. Maybe if Adam called from a line that was in the house, they would have had it. However, if Adam called from his own cell phone, I don't think they would. Records for that phone would show Adam's address.

What I would like to find also is so type of evidence of who could have tied those knots. Since Adam ended up working on a tug boat in Memphis, is that where the Shacknai's were originaly from? Were Jonah and Adam raised around a river. The only history I could find was Jonah's colleges, both of which were in New York. But evidently there was some nautical type rope in the house.

Sprekels is very close to the sea so I'm guessing lots of sea-based activity(didn't need my Miss Marple hat on for that deduction! :lol: ), in fact, in the autopsy it's mentioned that the rope has a plastic tube in it like the part of a tow rope a water-skier would hold, SO ....... I'm wondering if someone in the area is missing a long length of red/orange rope? The only trouble is, if it was stolen, the person it was stolen from may never be aware of the fact. I wonder if the investigators asked people in the area to check?

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Sprekels is very close to the sea so I'm guessing lots of sea-based activity(didn't need my Miss Marple hat on for that deduction! :lol: ), in fact, in the autopsy it's mentioned that the rope has a plastic tube in it like the part of a tow rope a water-skier would hold, SO ....... I'm wondering if someone in the area is missing a long length of red/orange rope? The only trouble is, if it was stolen, the person it was stolen from may never be aware of the fact. I wonder if the investigators asked people in the area to check?

Yes, did they water ski there? I have wondered that myself but I was thinking, in view of the brother's profession, did Jonah have an earlier connection to the water that they knots came to him without too much thought ? Tug boats just don't seem to be a vocation that people just come up with... or maybe that just brings even more suspicion to the fact that he might have gotten him brother's help as you suggested earlier...

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I know that we always carried 2 or 3 sets of ski ropes. Someone murder this girl and no one is opening up about it .

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I know that we always carried 2 or 3 sets of ski ropes. Someone murder this girl and no one is opening up about it .

Are you saying you keep 2 or 3 sets in your car? I can imagine people having spares, plus not throwing away ones that have broken because the rope that's left could be used for something else less taxing. I imagine most people who have boats/do water sports couldn't say exactly what they currently own in the way of ropes.

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Carried them in the boat.

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Carried them in the boat.

That makes perfect sense to me... in the boat for the water. Do we know if Jonah had a boat? I'm wondering if he did because their winter residence was Arizona. I know there are places to ski there... but... I would like to know that was an interest of his. If not where did that type of rope come from? Had to be in the garage..Oh, good Lord, how many garages did they have ???? Police probably said she also walked nude about the grounds and on out to the garage to get the nautical rope....Ah, no, not logical to me.

Also, Knight, you said you are familiar with this type of rope. If you water ski? How about those knots? Do you see them in that sport as being common place?

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Nude walking around outside in daylight. Strange unless she was a nudist. Using a course nylon rope to hang your self not smart. The force of the drop with a ski could have cut her head off. The knots were just standard knots.That a boy scout knowing. This case was closed to fast. +

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Posted (edited)

Ann Rule devoted 117 pages of her newest book to this case. Did I learn anything new? No, but I learned more than I knew about Ann Rule.

Rule is buddies with one of the attorney's who's representing Zahau's family, and there's an obvious slant with her reporting.

I've read several of Rule's books in the long-ago past, and I'm very disappointed, although I was never as informed before of the facts/details of a case having been privy to case documents.

Among other things, she actually sourced a poster on a message board for some of her information!

Speculation has surrounded Adam Shacknai. He was the only other person known to have been at the mansion at the time of Zahau's death. He had come after being informed of his nephew's critical condition, and he roomed in the guest house, having arrived the previous evening on a flight from Tennessee.

Anyway, about his visit, Rule states that he "apparently" came to comfort Jonah (his brother). She actually questions his motive for visiting! I assume she's implying that he could have came to kill Zahau, which would have been within hours of him arriving!

About his cutting Zahau down from hanging, she said he was "lucky" to have found the right kitchen drawer for a knife. Well, since I question Rules sources of info., I don't know if he got the knife from a drawer, or how lucky it was he got it, but in my opinion she took every opportunity to encourage speculation of Adam Shacknai, which actually, was the one thing that came as no surprise to me, considering her association with those involved.

Apart from that, some of her rationale is downright flaky. (I'll have to go back and look for examples, and I will if anyone expresses interest.)

Edited by regi

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I clearly heard ****ing kid but I don't think that he's referring to Max. I think he's referring to Rebecca.

At 1:20, I think what he said was "You're ....... kidding me".

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It appears it was correct to have questioned Rule's sources she used in her latest book. (Specifically, Rule had questioned Adam Shacknai's ability to quickly locate a knife in a kitchen he wouldn't have been familiar with.)

Adam Shacknai's polygraph was administered some 11-12 hours after what had to have been an extremely traumatic situation; to first be confronted with, and then have to contend with. (I mean, think about it. The man was out early...thinking he'd see if Zahau wanted to go out for breakfast, and he comes upon her hanging naked from the balcony! He's didn't know the address, and the 9-1-1 operator is pressuring him for an address, but surely, it's instinctual to cut her down immediately because time is of the essence!)

Anyway...the results of the poly were inconclusive, but afterward, the examiner stated that he believed Shacknai had been truthful.

During the polygraph session, Shacknai reported that he got the knife he used to cut Zahau down with from a butcher block, not a kitchen drawer as Rule states in her book.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/22221589/news-8-exclusive-the-polygraph-exam-of-adam-shacknai

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Regi, You continue to ignore relevant clues that are right there in the record..... Jonas said that he left the hospital the night Max died to have dinner with Rebecca......

There was NO food in her stomach found during the autopsy !

To me, this far outweighs what Ann Rule said in her book the she probably did want to sell. Just the fact that Rebecca's middleclass family has ties to Ann Rule is, in itself, pretty ridiculous!

Go back, look at the timeline..... Compare the facts in record.... Look at the fact, look at the autopsy!

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Ducansmom, Zahau picked up Adam Shacknai from the airport that Tuesday afternoon. The two of them later picked up Jonah Shacknai and a friend of Jonah's (Howard "something"..or "something" Howard) from the hospital, and either before or after dinner "Howard" was dropped off at the airport.

After dinner, Jonah was dropped back off at the hospital (where he'd planned to stay the night), and Zahau and Adam went back to the mansion.

Zahau went into the mansion, and Adam went to the guesthouse.

That's what the record reflects, and there's evidence that supports it, and no evidence to dispute it.

The autopsy report states that "the stomach contains 2cc of thick, green material".

Max Shacknai died that following Friday, two days after Zahau's death.

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So, forgive me if anything I say is ignorant of the facts--I'm a newbie and I've been reviewing the facts and documents of this case all day.

It doesn't sit well with me. Nothing about this case really seems "right" in my mind. I don't believe that Rebecca murdered Max, intentionally, but perhaps, as stated before, there was some type of accident and she became scared and didn't want to admit to anything in fear. Or, maybe she wasn't involved in the death of Max whatsoever. But her "commiting suicide" two days after? Hm.

Adam seems suspicious to me, after hearing that 911 call, and reviewing all the details. Not only that, but are you freaking kidding me? Cell phone or not, they would've been able to trace the call. My sister was choking and stopped breathing. While my cousin worked on her, I called 911--they knew where I was, I was calling off my cell phone, it wasn't my house. They said "Is your address ______?" and then said help was on the way.

Everything about this is suspicious. The only way I can picture Rebecca committing suicide is if she did have something to do with Max's injury/eventual death, and the guilt was too much. I could see that being plausible, but even though I sound like a broken record... it's just all too fishy.

What about the sister? How much was she questioned regarding Max?

On one hand, I can't help but wonder if Jonah is involved, or as stated, perhaps something to do with business etc. On the other, it's not really hitting my "radar" that he's the cause of either Max or Rebecca's deaths.

I've been thinking heavily about whatever was written on the wall. One site claimed it said, "She saved him. Can he save her?" That sent chills down my spine. Maybe I write too much, but in a random, over-processed scenario it almost seems like Rebecca may have done something to save Max from something.. but could Max save her? Or maybe not Max, maybe Jonah. No, no, that's too utterly stupid, my apologies, newbie here.

Pardon my ramblings. It's all intruiging and unsettling to me.

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Sparkarov, you're not specific as to why Adam Shacknai seems suspicious to you. What about the 9-1-1 call, and what details are you referring to?

Re: the 9-1-1 call, he immediately relayed the situation, and gave the operator the street name and address of the guesthouse... so I don't know why she had a problem re: where to send an ambulance.

About the message on the door, since I believe Zahau's death was suicide, I come at it from that perspective, but of course, I still can only speculate.

My best interpretation is that the message could have been directed to anyone; that there was grief associated with the incident involving Max (him)... that he was surviving (saved), but for her, help would be too late.

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I tried to post this response previously but somehow it never showed up...So if it's just delayed in electronic land, I apologize for repetition...

Sparkarov, here are my thoughts on things you brought up. Perhaps due to the dense population in that area a trace might take a little longer and it might not identify whether someone in an apartment/condo is on the 1st, 2nd third floor. The phone would come up with Adam's ID, so the 911 dispatcher asked him his location while she was also tracing. Since he hesitated when trace came by she would have an address and confirmation from him.

The teenage sister was reportedly taking a shower. She has remained steadfast Rebecca did not commit suicide and joined in her requests the case be reopened. However, I think she was just 15 at the time and to me it seemed possible that Max might have been injured in a play situation. I am bothered by the fact Max was only 45 inches tall. A pretty standard bannister height is at least 36" How would his center of gravity be located that he "fell" over the railing but game of "piggyback" might have elevated him. There is a police animation showing his fall. It's interesting in that no heights are indicated.

To me the one with the hole in the story is Jonah. He's dinner trip with Rebecca is dismissed way too quickly. He had motive (anger?) means (his house knows where everything is) and opportunity. It seems an hour after being told his son's condition is deteriorating, he leaves the hospital....to get some "sleep" but goes out to dinner with Rebecca and some Howard guy who they drop at the airport. So he is with Rebecca alone and he doesn't go back to the hospital right away...checks into a motel. So that enlarges his timeframe. He knows his son is dying but he then goes to get some sleep ????? Odd.....That together with the fact there is almost no food in Rebecca's stomach (except 2 cc of green stuff)...nothing really....Where's the dinner she ate gone to ???

I think he had time to take Rebecca back to the house and ended up hanging her with Adam's assistance which is why Adam didn't pass a lie detector. Adam says two of three times on the 911 call, "I just woke up" but his bed hadn't been slept in according to the report..................

Just my conjecture..............

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Jonah Shacknai's whereabouts are well established. There's no question where the man was at any given time. When he left the hospital, he went to sleep at the Ronald MacDonald house. he and Dina both rarely left their son's bedside, and did so only out of necessity. Good Lord! Can that be understood?

Jonah, Adam, and Zahau had dinner at about 8:00 pm, so considering the digestive process, I don't think there would have been much to find as far as stomach contents considering TOD would have been hours later.

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The autopsy showed that the child had a lack of O2 to the brain before he died. The 2 women lied about CPR. Zahau died because the boy died. I've said that from the start.

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In the stomach, the food is bathed in hydrochloric acid, which further breaks down starches and initiates protein digestion. The stomach also acts like a blender, churning the food into a substance called chyme. Once the food is adequately churned, it is released in small increments into the small intestine. The rate of release varies, depending onicon1.png the amount of food matter already in the intestines. Often, if there is a lot of food in the stomach, this will initiate defecation in order to make room for more food. This is why people often have a bowel movement after a hearty meal. It takes anywhere from four to five hours for food to completely clear the stomach. This depends on the size of the stomach, the amount of food ingested, and the amount of material already in the intestines.

Read more: http://www.ehow.com/about_5072776_long-entire-digestive-process.html#ixzz2XFUVu4Jw

They left about 8:00 to get dinner, say an hour for finding a restaurant, ordering, and eating. That would take us to 9:00 p.m. Time of death was estimated at 1:00 am. There should be more than 2 ccs

Antilles, maybe it was the CPR not being administered that made him so angry. She had worked as a type of nurse for a laser eye doctor. So she should have had at least some CPR training. So it seems that might be something that really ticked him off. Also, he does have a history of domestic violence.

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"In the stomach, the food is bathed in hydrochloric acid, which further breaks down starches and initiates protein digestion. The stomach also acts like a blender, churning the food into a substance called chyme. Once the food is adequately churned, it is released in small increments into the small intestine. The rate of release varies, depending onicon1.png the amount of food matter already in the intestines. Often, if there is a lot of food in the stomach, this will initiate defecation in order to make room for more food. This is why people often have a bowel movement after a hearty meal. It takes anywhere from four to five hours for food to completely clear the stomach. This depends on the size of the stomach, the amount of food ingested, and the amount of material already in the intestines."

Read more: http://www.ehow.com/about_5072776_long-entire-digestive-process.html#ixzz2XFUVu4Jw

They left the hospital after 8, ordered ate, puts us to 9:00. Death is estimated at 1:00 am Seems that there should be at least some trace of food?

Antilles, maybe it's the lack of CPR that made him so mad. He does have a history of domestic violence. She had worked as a surgical nurse for a laser eye surgeon. So she should have had at least some training... Maybe that it just what set it off.

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Information in the search warrant for cell records states that after dinner, Jonah Shacknai returned to the hospital around 2000 hours. (That must have been why 8:00 pm. was stuck in my mind.)

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And that sounds like it would be a correct turn around time. So that puts her eating maybe around 9 - 10 which is what I estimated.

I just had a thought I'm looking at the empty stomach the wrong way. The food was, as you said, long gone from her stomach. Four to five hours would put her death sometime after 2:00 am If Jonah left the hospital again for the hotel at 1:55 am......There's the timeframe opportunity for Jonah again. Ronald McDonald house was full. He couldn't get in there....... I wonder when his arrival at the hotel was......I don't think I've ever seen that.

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Posted (edited)

Long time since I dealt with military time. It just hit me...returning to the hospital at 20:00 is 8:00 pm. Did he leave the hospital at 8:00 or return at 8:00?

Jonah Shacknai's whereabouts are well established. There's no question where the man was at any given time. When he left the hospital, he went to sleep at the Ronald MacDonald house. he and Dina both rarely left their son's bedside, and did so only out of necessity. Good Lord! Can that be understood?

Jonah, Adam, and Zahau had dinner at about 8:00 pm, so considering the digestive process, I don't think there would have been much to find as far as stomach contents considering TOD would have been hours later.

Information in the search warrant for cell records states that after dinner, Jonah Shacknai returned to the hospital around 2000 hours. (That must have been why 8:00 pm. was stuck in my mind.)

So I do have a question, did Jonah leave the hospital at 8:00, eat at 8:00, or get back to the hospital at 20:00, also 8:00 ? I have seen other discrepancies in this reporting, so I don't doubt for a minute that's what you read but could you go back and check. I will be looking too......

Now you mentioned he left for Ronald McDonald house at 1:55 am. Ronald McDonald house was full. That's in the record. So where did he go at 1:55 am. When did he check in there... or do we have a case of, I'm going here but then I was there...... With no food in R stomach, this sets the timeframe for the murder after 1:00....Please let me know if you see an account of this time..... I'm looking too...............

Edited by Duncansmom

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The info in the search warrant is that Jonah arrived back at the hospital around 8:00pm, and that he went to the Ronald MacDonald House next door to sleep. I know I've seen it documented elsewhere that He hadn't been able to stay there before because it had been full.

Maybe the link to that info. is located somewhere on these pages.

On a personal note, I've had a particularly rough week and a half, and I feel the need to take a little hiatus from all of 'this', so I won't be replying for a while.

Happy research :tu:

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The info in the search warrant is that Jonah arrived back at the hospital around 8:00pm, and that he went to the Ronald MacDonald House next door to sleep. I know I've seen it documented elsewhere that He hadn't been able to stay there before because it had been full.

Maybe the link to that info. is located somewhere on these pages.

On a personal note, I've had a particularly rough week and a half, and I feel the need to take a little hiatus from all of 'this', so I won't be replying for a while.

Happy research :tu:

Thanks very much. Our self appointed expert has retired for a while. What would we do without you.

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So, forgive me if anything I say is ignorant of the facts--I'm a newbie and I've been reviewing the facts and documents of this case all day.

It doesn't sit well with me. Nothing about this case really seems "right" in my mind. I don't believe that Rebecca murdered Max, intentionally, but perhaps, as stated before, there was some type of accident and she became scared and didn't want to admit to anything in fear. Or, maybe she wasn't involved in the death of Max whatsoever. But her "commiting suicide" two days after? Hm.

Adam seems suspicious to me, after hearing that 911 call, and reviewing all the details. Not only that, but are you freaking kidding me? Cell phone or not, they would've been able to trace the call. My sister was choking and stopped breathing. While my cousin worked on her, I called 911--they knew where I was, I was calling off my cell phone, it wasn't my house. They said "Is your address ______?" and then said help was on the way.

Everything about this is suspicious. The only way I can picture Rebecca committing suicide is if she did have something to do with Max's injury/eventual death, and the guilt was too much. I could see that being plausible, but even though I sound like a broken record... it's just all too fishy.

What about the sister? How much was she questioned regarding Max?

On one hand, I can't help but wonder if Jonah is involved, or as stated, perhaps something to do with business etc. On the other, it's not really hitting my "radar" that he's the cause of either Max or Rebecca's deaths.

I've been thinking heavily about whatever was written on the wall. One site claimed it said, "She saved him. Can he save her?" That sent chills down my spine. Maybe I write too much, but in a random, over-processed scenario it almost seems like Rebecca may have done something to save Max from something.. but could Max save her? Or maybe not Max, maybe Jonah. No, no, that's too utterly stupid, my apologies, newbie here.

Pardon my ramblings. It's all intruiging and unsettling to me.

Newbie here too and don't stop rambling. Your ramble may start someone else's ramble and they we'll have a rumble. Sorry. Anyway, this case is SO strange. The Ex Mrs and her twin sister...I couldn't have thought that up had I tried. Then Jonah's brother, surfing porn that night after dinner. And Rebecca...the entire scene reeks of something other then suicide. Women hang themselves everyday. They do not however bind their legs and hands, and throw themselves over an outside balcony NAKED! The brother being the one that "found" her and cut her down, (I suspect he couldn't have done it the way he said he did. Broken table was the only thing there that would have been high enough for him to have reached her.) is also weird.

The cops came in with one idea and they stuck to it no matter what the evidence, upon further investigation, told them. The scrawled writing has stumped me. And I believe you're correct about what it said: She saved him Can he save her? is what was written. When I first read about this case my Hinky meter went ballistic. I don't think we are ever going to know what happened, so many cases are like this. But the more eyes that look at strange cases the better. The next newbie may be able to figure out what was meant by the scrawl on the door...

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