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Vincennes

Spreckel Mansion Death/Suicide

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Good points curious one. I'm guessing you don't think Rebecca killed herself.......

Whether it was a suicide or a murder, it all boils down to Max.

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DM, I don't know if I'm way off the mark with this but I have been thinking about it.

What if it was the kid sister who was involved in Max's death and not Rebecca?

Obviously, the kid sister was got out of the way. I absolutely agree with you on that point.

You know, that could just as well explain the crap about CPR, the hysterical phone call, the sister's fast exit and Rebecca committing suicide.

It's just a thought.

I like your thought pattern. The strange thing to me was that, as I was reading the book, I wasn't reading it with a lot of concentration on the sister's involvement. I have never dismissed the possibility but it was not a focus. Yet, as Rule went into the texts between the two of them, I was taken to: That doesn't make sense; Why would Rebecca do that? The Z's were a close family. I come from one and you just don't leave your kids at an airport when they are not really familiar with flying and then worry over what you have done and how they are going to make it to the gate? The other thing I woke up this morning thinking about, (yeah, I'm crazy!) Why isn't the kid now present in any of the interviews????? The only one I've seen is the sister Mary. Well that kid is older now and it seems to me odd that she wasn't on any of the Dr. Phil shows when she would have direct information to give. Maybe she has been on some and I have just missed her. The statements I have heard that she has made are just ones relayed by others, that Rebecca was not overly upset or feeling an abundance of guilt. Has anyone else seen her making any statements?

I also agree totally she could have been the one playing with Max. I live in a rather small, closed in neighborhood a while. There are less than 10 kids around here and I have been amazed that the all kids that are here play with each other constantly. The 14/15 year olds would be in the 5/6 year olds back yard playing with them on the trampoline all the time and really playing, not making fun of their abilities or bullying. In fact, one of them who had moved, who is now 18, came back to visit me and say hi and the second place he went was to the little kids house to see them, came back reveling in how they had grown. My point is I think it very, very possible it could have Xarye (sp?), the sister, playing with Max! Perhaps she thought of a good game for that stairway or my piggy-back explanation which would have given Max the extra height he needed to go over. If X is somewhat Rebecca's size, she would be big enough to lift him to that height but would not have the weight to be secure with him which would perhaps give him the height and the velocity going over.

Just my thoughts too.

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message_complete.jpg

i cant stop thinking about it.... the door message.

i can only think of it as a last call for help, can YOU (whoever finds her, medics/friends/anyone) save her, sounds like she maybe didnt want to do it... and was hoping that someone would find her before it was too late.

i believe the whole elabourate knots and rope were to make the suicide (and i believe it was a suicide) foolproof.

"SHE (Rebecca) SAVED HIM (Max, from the pain of life/seeing her suicide, being hurt) / CAN YOU (JS) SAVE HER (Rebecca)"

on another note:

Hey, Curious! Glad to see you here ! :su:st

I clipped some of your post just for space reasons and we all know I haven't quite gotten the hang of bringing quotes forward... So if what I brought forward seems a little odd, that's why. Love your insight !!!

I hadn't really concentrated on an enlargement of the note. In looking at it now what I see is an attempt to disguise the handwriting. The slants on the letters go two ways, forward and backhand. in several places. The word "CAN" looks like typical forward (that's the word that is less clear) ; however, "SAVE" looks to me backhand, especially the V. With "CAN" looking the messiest, I would be taken to looking for the writer to actually have a backhand slant. Just preliminary thinking. Of course, there is also the "HER." Suicide would seem a very self-motivated action. That makes it hard for me to figure why she would have used a third person title.

The autopsy, really INTERESTING ! I have printed out Rebecca's and I want to compare the other wounds. Right off, I can recognize the "punctate" abrasions being on both victims. We now know "punctate" meaning from the Z trial. I want to compare those autopsy's for both signs of a struggle and/or drag type injuries.

Great post, glad to have you on board!! :clap:

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THERE WAS EVIDENCE OF A STRUGGLE.... IGNORED BY POLICE INVESTIGATORS

  • There were paint splatters on her body and the noose
  • A chair was overturned in "hanging" bedroom
  • There were four contusions on her head
  • Screams reportedly heard by neighbors
  • Her arms were tied so she couldn't fight back.
  • Her legs were bound so she couldn't run away
  • There was clear plastic tape residue on her leg
  • She was gagged so she couldn't scream again
  • The noose was placed over her hair
  • A t-shirt was wrapped around the noose
  • Candleholder overturned on first floor
  • Two knives found in the "hanging" bedroom. Why 2?
  • Two paintbrushes found in the "hanging" bedroom. Why 2?
  • Abrasion on her finger
  • Blood on her body
  • Evidence of possible manual strangulation
  • Injuries inconsistent with vertical hanging
  • Her feet were caked with mud though there were not any muddy footprints inside the house
  • A message in the third person was written on the bedroom door of the crime scene. "SHE SAVED HIM CAN YOU SAVE HER" Why would a suicidal person leave a note with the words “her” and “she” instead of using “I” and “me”?
  • There were several unidentified fingerprints at the scene, Yet not everyone of interest (not living in the house) was fingerprinted. Not all of the DNA found at the scene was tested.

IMO each and every one of these points could be critical in concluding what happened. However, there are a couple that really stand out to me. Not necessary in order of significance.

  • The tape residue on her leg - I have read a couple of different descriptions of this. I've never seen it was "white tape" residue. I've seen it described as duct tape residue. Also, I have seen descriptions of being horizontal residue on "both legs." Like most of the things in this case, doesn't appear that way everywhere but I think that would be very important especially, in light of the fact there was no other tape of that nature found in the house. No roll of unused tape in the room, no empty roll of tape....No tape !
  • No other DNA found - I was just wondering through several of the investigation clips and found a replay of the police stating that regarding the rope around her neck. "No other DNA on that rope," police were stating so proudly.... Well how did Adam cut her down and not leave some of his DNA on that rope ????? They did take DNA from Adam immediately....so where is it? Tell me how he could be standing on a table, cutting down a hanging body and grab the rope she was hanging from so gently, he didn't leave any DNA on it !! Also the shirt around her neck. He is, by his own statement, cutting her down....did he let her fall or reach out and try to catch/hold the body as a normal person would do ?? Again, no DNA ?? Okay, then he bends over her trying to prepare to do CPR, pulls the shirt out of her mouth, per his own statement and, again, doesn't leave any DNA on the shirt or on Rebecca ????

We are having a bad storm so I have to post this or loose it...... As I said, these are not the only significant things in your list they are points that just especially bother me.

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Good points curious one. I'm guessing you don't think Rebecca killed herself.......

Whether it was a suicide or a murder, it all boils down to Max.

personally i do believe it was suicide, so far i have not read anything that points to a "forced entry" , i believe max's death made her even more depressed/suicidle and it tipped her over the edge (much like how im personally feeling now to be honest!)

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"Curious: personally i do believe it was suicide, so far i have not read anything that points to a "forced entry" , i believe max's death made her even more depressed/suicide and it tipped her over the edge (much like how im personally feeling now to be honest!"

As I think I told you that is where I think I also am at with it. However, ok, Regi, here it comes. I am agreeing with a lot, OK? The posts Antilles and I both made regarding the sister's departure could really lean either way. I do think it seems completed hastily.

However, every time I get about there, I hit another snag....in that theory...."Forced entry" may not be a part of the scenario at all. Multiple reports state that they were used to leaving their backdoor unlocked. How about those that had keys and access?? Are they really all accounted for? The balance of your post regarding the similar autopsy has some interesting points. Rebecca also had punctate injuries to her back in patterns at reoccurring distances. What would have caused those? The balcony rail, the stucco on the house, the tile floor of the balcony?

I have been working on transcribing that audio from Nina, (Dina's sister) which is contained Regi's post on Pg. 2 of this thread. ....... Although Nina seems to be forthcoming I will be back with what I see in it that doesn't fit and IMO there are times Nina also seems to be diverting attention....

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Posted (edited)

Okay, guys, this is my stormy day work result. It's a transcription of Nina's interview that Regi put in the thread on Pg. 2, I think Dec. 27, 12.

I don't know what was interviewing her and we can't seem to pull it up but whoever it is should have been on the police department. I have always said Nina sounds truthful....then, going back through the posts again, I discovered how much information is in this audio. First three times I heard it, I thought. This guy should really listen up better. He just isn't getting her answers...all the time our posts our developing things....The fourth time I heard what he was doing. He missed his calling... What I tried to do is transcribe it...but not just as he posed the questions which now I can see are in "rounds." He goes through some things, then distracts her a little, then goes back for another round. If you just transcribed it as is...You get facts, distances apart. I have identified each round of questioning by color and then put them back to the day he is questioning her on. There are five separate rounds of questioning.

My code for the people is:

I: is the Interviewer

N: Nina

R: Rebecca

X: Rebecca's kid sister Xayre or however you spell it

A: Adam

D: Dina

J: Jonah

Black is the questions information from the first round of questioning.

Blue is the second round which was the most subtle and hard to find exactly when he turned and began to re-question so I didn't get to identify 2nd round starting place...

Green is the third round

Purple is the fourth

Brown is the fifth....

Red are just my personal thoughts and comments along the way....Me, just thinkin'...

If you use these colors as you read through each day, you can see the Interviewer got more information each round and identify how many times it took him and how consistent the information was.

I began this just thinking I would just take pertinent notes or times/dates that I saw. Then, I couldn't stop remembering Antilles saw the sister's involvement ...that I had just given passing thought to and moved on...and my shorthand took over my head. I really tried to get every pertinent word...The change is on the first page...You can see it but I'm not going back. Even for me, enough is enough ! I didn't change any of the wording I just moved topics up to the date they referred to.

Please read through it....Most pertinent facts are like Nixon...What did they know and when did they know it? Dr. Howard Lubner's role and who was at Dina's house. (The friends and that line of his questioning go back to earlier accusations that Dina had male friends there that could have assisted R in her suicide.

Okay, I got involved and worked on this most of this stormy day....I'll pay a quarter, hard cold cash to all that will look through it...I promise!

My document is attached.

Nina's Interview.rtf

Edited by Duncansmom
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After doing this (and I hope you guys can open it) I have to say I had really began to be much more open toward suicide...and I had been really open to Nina's audio. It seemed very truthful. Until I broke it down. She goes way overboard on the lack of CPR, and that being her thought way too early and she, as does the Interviewer, becomes very distinctly distracting a couple of times. I don't know what happened but I can see why the Zahau's are suing the Nina and Dina twins for their accusations. I am going over the autopsy next and the punctate wounds on Rebecca.

A hard, cold cash quarter for reading...no kidding!

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have downloaded, gotten my breakfast and will now read :tu:

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Posted (edited)

this new book that everyones on about......

title and author please :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

please note, the following has been "piked" from http://www.websleuth...=145758&page=38 it made me think....

PhotoshopScreenSnapz007.jpg292088d1311459705-death-rebecca-zahau-rebecca-zahau-crime-scene.png

Just think about it.

Case 1 Balcony Jump

1. Why tie the rope on the bottom rung of the balcony. Top rung easier and makes the required length shorter. The rope almost doubles in length on the bottom rung because you need enough rope to allow you to move around on the balcony, put the noose around your neck, tie your own hands behind your back,stand up and flip yourself over the rail to your death.

This is what they are having you believe she done from the balcony.

Case 2 Ground level jump

2. Run upstairs to the balcony tie the rope on the bottom rung drop the rope down. Run down, climb on the table put the noose on, tie your own hands behind your back jump off the table and into the wall.

Then AS walks up see RN. Call 911 reports a woman hung that appears dead. Moves the table beneath the balcony to the wall, pulls out the knife or scissors, Cuts her down to reviver her, carrier her to the grass. Don't attempt to reviver her, Move the table back on the side walk in the standing position and wait for EMT.

This is what you believe.....

Please try this. Have someone in your family to play dead and you move them from the floor to the couch just to see how hard it is to move dead weight.

And you believe he cut her down with the items in the picture above by him self.

Just look at the table. why move the table back to the walkway when it is out of the way against the wall? It does not make sense the only reason is you want it to look a certain way. Staging..

Just so many factor that points to staging...........

Edited by CuriousLittleOne

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"Curious: personally i do believe it was suicide, so far i have not read anything that points to a "forced entry" , i believe max's death made her even more depressed/suicide and it tipped her over the edge (much like how im personally feeling now to be honest!"

As I think I told you that is where I think I also am at with it. However, ok, Regi, here it comes. I am agreeing with a lot, OK? The posts Antilles and I both made regarding the sister's departure could really lean either way. I do think it seems completed hastily.

However, every time I get about there, I hit another snag....in that theory...."Forced entry" may not be a part of the scenario at all. Multiple reports state that they were used to leaving their backdoor unlocked. How about those that had keys and access?? Are they really all accounted for? The balance of your post regarding the similar autopsy has some interesting points. Rebecca also had punctate injuries to her back in patterns at reoccurring distances. What would have caused those? The balcony rail, the stucco on the house, the tile floor of the balcony?

I have been working on transcribing that audio from Nina, (Dina's sister) which is contained Regi's post on Pg. 2 of this thread. ....... Although Nina seems to be forthcoming I will be back with what I see in it that doesn't fit and IMO there are times Nina also seems to be diverting attention....

Wow, DM. It'll take me quite a few readings to make some sense of it but one point I notice. I think it was you who said the mansion doors weren't locked so anyone could wander in ?

Nina says the night Rebecca died, she looked in and saw lights. Something like that. Why wouldn't she have entered if the doors were unlocked?

Great job on the transcript.

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Curious One (great nic) I believe Rebecca killed herself because of her involvement in Max's death. Now, that's not to say someone else didn't come along and move things around. How convenient to find her dead. It's a thought.

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ooh, i never looked at it that way Ant! (ha and when i first looked at the forum, i felt like a curiouslittleone! very innocent and demure LOL!!!!!)

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Posted (edited)

I got involved and worked on this most of this stormy day....

My document is attached.

Your effort is much appreciated! :nw:

Edited to add comment.

First, that interviewer was an annoying moron. He asked the same things over and over- a lot of it not even pertinent to hours in question, he went in circles, and he continually interrupted!

I remember thinking that Nina was very patient with that man.

Re: Nina, essentially, if I considered Nina a suspect (which I don't) my focus would be on- and limited to- the hours in question, and not on the days leading up to the critical hours.

Edited by regi
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Wow, DM. It'll take me quite a few readings to make some sense of it but one point I notice. I think it was you who said the mansion doors weren't locked so anyone could wander in ?

Nina says the night Rebecca died, she looked in and saw lights. Something like that. Why wouldn't she have entered if the doors were unlocked?

Great job on the transcript.

Yes, I did read in a couple of places R and J were in the habit of leaving the backdoor unlocked. Why didn't Nina just go in? She might not have known that (She hadn't been to the house since Dina and Jonah divorced) and if she did know it, she might not have felt free to just go in in that she was Dina's sister and it had not been a pleasant divorce. The house seems to be too large to accomplish any result by just opening a door a little, sticking your head in and calling out. Wouldn't do you any good. So if in fact it was her on the property that night, she was pretty much done when she got no answer to her knock.

Nina's remark about the number of lights changed during the interview. At first she says one light that looked like a hallway. Then later, when she talks about looking into the backyard, she actually starts saying again, I only saw one light, then goes on to describe the location of two: the second floor hallway and then adds, one in the small sitting room/bedroom on the second floor.

Thanks for the comment on the transcript. I tried hard to be accurate.

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Posted (edited)

this new book that everyones on about......

title and author please :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

please note, the following has been "piked" from http://www.websleuth...=145758&page=38 it made me think....

PhotoshopScreenSnapz007.jpg292088d1311459705-death-rebecca-zahau-rebecca-zahau-crime-scene.png

Just think about it.

Case 1 Balcony Jump

1. Why tie the rope on the bottom rung of the balcony. Top rung easier and makes the required length shorter. The rope almost doubles in length on the bottom rung because you need enough rope to allow you to move around on the balcony, put the noose around your neck, tie your own hands behind your back,stand up and flip yourself over the rail to your death.

This is what they are having you believe she done from the balcony.

Case 2 Ground level jump

2. Run upstairs to the balcony tie the rope on the bottom rung drop the rope down. Run down, climb on the table put the noose on, tie your own hands behind your back jump off the table and into the wall.

Then AS walks up see RN. Call 911 reports a woman hung that appears dead. Moves the table beneath the balcony to the wall, pulls out the knife or scissors, Cuts her down to reviver her, carrier her to the grass. Don't attempt to reviver her, Move the table back on the side walk in the standing position and wait for EMT.

This is what you believe.....

Please try this. Have someone in your family to play dead and you move them from the floor to the couch just to see how hard it is to move dead weight.

And you believe he cut her down with the items in the picture above by him self.

Just look at the table. why move the table back to the walkway when it is out of the way against the wall? It does not make sense the only reason is you want it to look a certain way. Staging..

Just so many factor that points to staging...........

I can't actually see this picture clearly as to where the rope is on the balcony. I have seen other pictures of the scene although now I can't find one that shows the balcony with the body still on the ground. I'd like to I am now inclined to distrust ones that I can find that show the rope over the top balcony rail. I don't see how you could tie it from the bottom rail and then fling yourself over, wouldn't it wrap around the entire railing?

Manual hanging from the ground....Yeah, a possibility.... Your "dead weight" comment being interesting to figure into the equation.

IMO the table being out is because Adam had moved it there in order to cut her down, then it pretty much stayed in that position as part of the crime scene.

The book is "Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors" by Ann Rule. I wouldn't suggest buying it there are too many errors both Regi and I were really suspect of its 100% accuracy. It is, however, out in paperback.

I only took from it facts such as texts and sequence of events that I felt had to be pretty verifiable.

Edited by Duncansmom

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I can't actually see this picture clearly as to where the rope is on the balcony.

The rope was over the railing, per autopsy report...that the prints on the balcony were at the point where the rope went over the railing.

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Here's a link I think you will find interesting with actual video of Adam and his lie detector test.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/22221589/news-8-exclusive-the-polygraph-exam-of-adam-shacknai

I did find something else interesting yesterday regarding Jonah. That was in reference to the amount of his wealth and the he had been a HUGE presidential campaign contributor as in a million or so.

Very interesting..... :w00t:....

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Posted (edited)

I think this link has been offered before, but regardless, I think it warrants re-posting because it contains information released from the San Diego County Sheriff's Dept. re: the Zahau case evidence.

http://www.sdsheriff...coronado/rz.pdf

Edited by regi

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Thanks, Regi, the photos in that post are really clear. However, I'm not being smart here, I'm really asking: What time is 00:50 hours ? Here again, "The fingerprints found on the door "jamb" were only Rebecca's. Adam's computer was in there. None of his prints? and on to...No DNA other than Rebecca's on the rope from her neck? None of Adam's even on her? They shouldn't just include the information that they like and goes along with their theory. Adam's DNA had to be on that rope in order to cut her down. He would have to grab it and hold strongly enough to steady a swinging body.

Today, however, my thoughts have gone to it makes no psychological sense that Dina or Nina were involved. Say even if Dina got so crazy mad she had someone do it for her. Why on earth would she keep bringing it up in the press which she has again and again. Why would you do that?? If I had done that and the police closed the case, I would be quietly going away hoping that it was never on anyone's mind again.

I think we need to focus on the quiet ones. Rebecca's sister Xenia, Jonah and Adam. I posted previously: Why is it Rebecca's sister Mary that's in the news and the Dr. Phil shows.....Has anyone ever seen the kid sister at any time or heard anything from her personally other than Rebecca's initial statement that the kid sister was upstairs, taking a shower.

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Posted (edited)

Sure, Duncansmom. :tu:

Zahau's cell records show that at 00:50 Wed (12:50 am) Zahau's voice mail was cleared.

I noted that her last call out was at 9:25 pm and her last text out was at 9:53 pm.

Nina's text to Zahau occurs out of sequence; billing shows that the text was received at 10:41 pm, but Nina said in that interview that her phone records show the text was sent when she said it was... @ 9:41 pm., which was shortly before she said she'd decided to walk over to the mansion.

(Btw, I can't believe posters would have expected Nina to have checked the doors, or would have seriously expected her to have boldly walked right into the house!)

http://ftpcontent.wo.../zahau_cell.pdf

Adam's DNA/prints would be expected to be found on the knife used to cut the rope, and on a particular section of the rope- where he'd have to grab a hold of it to cut it, but only Zahau's DNA was found on the bindings (neck, hands, feet).

Also, only her DNA was on the rope attached to the foot board of the bed, and on the small knife on the floor.

Only Zahau's prints were on door jam of the guestroom entry, the balcony door, the large knife on the floor, and the bed leg next to where the rope was.

The absense of DNA and prints show that only Zahau was involved.

There were two paintbrushes, but only one was used. There was paint transfer on Zahau's hands, which then transferred to her body in specific places and onto the rope (also specific locations), and what that shows is that she used that paint.

Anyway, before we can look to suspects, we first have to determine what actually happened.

Edited by regi
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Posted (edited)

I didn't know that about the time 00:50. I thought 12:50 am would be 24:50! Should have looked up first.

Re: Nina's time of text being different that what is on R's bill. Bizarre! Nina I think lives in Arizona which would make her an hour ahead of R so that would really make it a two hour difference ...if and that's if the phone didn't adjust for time zones and most cell phones correct automatically ...So...?

But nothing surprises me anymore in this case!

The 911 call from Xenia is in this tread. It is in one of the Dr. Phil Show interviews or clips I think. I have heard it but can't seem to find it now. I do not remember it being as bizarre as Nina described. I thought the kid just sounded terrified/upset. I wish I could find it but it is here. If I do, I will try to post it.

What Nina's interview brought most to me was that these two woman were mad at Rebecca. I think that shows in she starts talking about their CPR conversations and thoughts during the first couple of days. I don't think that's where my mind would be considering Max's injuries and condition. CPR doesn't automatically save people or bring them back even if it was accomplished successfully. This kids' head was disconnected from his spine like a light bulb. So when Nina, keeps emphasizing the lack of it, I think they were going after Rebecca from the getgo. The other questions I had are Dina's repeated statements that one of her and Jonah's agreements were that Max would never be left alone in R's care with another member of R's family in the house? I'm like, "what?" Why would other members of R's family be a major focus of Dina's limitations. It seems convenient in view of the accident...and, again, very angry.

The thing I came off with from Ann Rule's book were the excerpts from R's journal. She really seemed to be in love with Jonah and even before the accident, seems to have been slipping away from her so she did it naked, she was stripped of everything and she did it dramatically.

I think I am good with Xenia caused the accident in play. That's why she's quiet now. She might not even be able to tell the Z's that know what she did caused two deaths. ......R did not immediately get to Max......and in view of his injuries, she knew her relationship with Jonah was going to be over. I will keep looking for the 911 call.

Curious, Antilles, you agree? Regi, can you accept this scenario?

Edited by Duncansmom

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Posted (edited)

Re: that interview, I certainly didn't have the sense that Nina was angry.

It seems anyone would have questions surrounding the incident with Max, and surely, after Zahau's death, such questions would only loom larger.

It appears to me that info. from the neurologist, info. from the ME, conflicting info. about whether or not CPR was performed before the arrival of paramedics, and then Zena's "bizarre" 9-1-1 call, was certainly enough to raise more questions than answers.

However, to my knowledge, all that info. came after Zahau's death, not before.

I seem to recall that Nina lived in Colorado at the time, but I could be mistaken.

Regardless, there's a witness who apparently saw Nina at the mansion that night, and so surely, his statements helped to verify Nina's account of when she was there.

That Dr. Phil show played only a few seconds of Zena's 9-1-1 call.

I forgot to comment about Dina's limitations re: Zahau's contact with Max.

It sounds to me that the point was likely that Dina wanted someone to be with Zahau and Max who she (Dina) had an independent relationship with.

Edited by regi

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Posted (edited)

Curious, Antilles, you agree? Regi, can you accept this scenario?

Hey, everyone, I have to apologize here. I just reread my last post. I phrased myself so very poorly. I didn't mean in anyway because I have come to this conclusion, it's decided. Please, I hope you all know me better than that by now I was seeing a hypothesis that I think has at least some major elements that have agreed with everyone's interpretation on certain facets of the case.

I guess where my mind was is, darn it, Regi, I'm beginning to see your darn suicide possibility which I was so juxtaposed to when we began. There, it's out now.... :-* ...LOL

Edited by Duncansmom
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It's OK DM.

You know I believe Rebecca's death was a suicide.

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