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blind pew

Why?

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Well, of course you will need a magical tent...whatever are you thinking! You will also need a hat or turbin of some sort (to collect money in). And you must start the narcissistic, grandiose thinking straight-away!

I have a hat I could use. I also have a Genuine Crystal Ball, energized by 7 crystals under a full moon. :yes:

I will have problem with the latter though...ah, I've got it...I will use the age-old tested, God is Everything, I am God, you are God...no, that just doesn't really suit me. Hmmm...

...Ding...Got it now! I will just tell people what I really think! That's the ticket! Tell them where, how, and why they are wrong...and with the right tent, and my Crystal Ball, we'll, I mean, I'll be in business. :nw:

Better go start a thread somewhere else though before I get kicked out of this one....What section should I post my Pay Me To Fix You thread?

Edit: Dambit Gumbee! Wouldn't you know it...Saru is already against me on this: the first rule..I mean the Very First Rule!!!

1. No spamming Common forms of forum spam include but are not limited to:1a. Advertising: Do not use the forum to advertise a product, site or service.

oops...better call it quits on this whole gig: :unsure2:3j. Thread derailment: Do not derail or 'hijack' threads with posts that are either off-topic or designed to draw attention away from what is being discussed.

Edited by joc
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I have a hat I could use. I also have a Genuine Crystal Ball, energized by 7 crystals under a full moon. :yes:

I will have problem with the latter though...ah, I've got it...I will use the age-old tested, God is Everything, I am God, you are God...no, that just doesn't really suit me. Hmmm...

...Ding...Got it now! I will just tell people what I really think! That's the ticket! Tell them where, how, and why they are wrong...and with the right tent, and my Crystal Ball, we'll, I mean, I'll be in business. :nw:

Better go start a thread somewhere else though before I get kicked out of this one....What section should I post my Pay Me To Fix You thread?

Edit: Dambit Gumbee! Wouldn't you know it...Saru is already against me on this: the first rule..I mean the Very First Rule!!!

1. No spamming Common forms of forum spam include but are not limited to:1a. Advertising: Do not use the forum to advertise a product, site or service.

oops...better call it quits on this whole gig: :unsure2:3j. Thread derailment: Do not derail or 'hijack' threads with posts that are either off-topic or designed to draw attention away from what is being discussed.

We digress... ;) And I can see you now (sans crystal ball), I am a Remote Viewer! :clap:

Get your finger outa there! :lol:

Edited by Lava_Lady
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I do believe Jesus was a real, living human being back then, I also believe he was wise beyond the norm at the time, what I don't believe is that he was a supernatural being. I believe he was guided by some bigger consciousness and his teachings are profound... I don't believe the modern day version of what was supposed to be his teachings and how it has morphed into something unsavory at times.

Many people feel the same way about Jesus as you do. I believe different, but I don't begrudge anyone their Right to believe how they see fit and live their life the way they think is best.

You seem to know the bible well, what is that thing Jesus is quoted at saying about him not wanting his followers to worship him?

I'm not certain. The closest I can think of this is when Jesus asked his disciples who they thought he was. When they said they believed him to be the Messiah he warned them not to tell anyone (Mark 8:27-30). That's not quite the same as saying "don't worship me". It's more like "shh, it's a secret, don't let anyone else know until I'm ready to let them know". Other than that there are plenty of examples throughout the gospels where people do in fact worship Jesus and Jesus never rebukes them. Perhaps such a passage exists, but off the top of my head I cannot think of it (I suspect that if it does exist it is similar to the context of Mark 8:27-30, that Jesus says "don't worship me now, wait until the time is proper" - but as said, I'll have to see it to give proper insight).

Regardless, like I said earlier in so many words, I don't care what someone's religion is unless they Proselytize and force it on me. Such is usually the case like this morning while picking up coffee before work when a sweet little old lady cornered me and wanted to talk about the coming of "the end of times" and gave me a lovely magazine called The Watchtower; seriously, that happened. Probably influenced my mood about the topic.

How often does that happen? I've had meetings with JW's and Mormons before, but they are very infrequent (I haven't spoken to one in several years now). I actually enjoy being stopped by these types of people, I enjoy talking about this kind of thing. The last person to stop me was actually a Hare Krishna and we had a great old yarn about the history of Hinduism and how they saw Jesus as an incarnation of Krishna. I donated money to him for his cause and got a book to add to my library for my troubles. It was fun. But I understand that not all people enjoy talking about their beliefs to others.

I also found your use of language amusing - you were "cornered" by a "sweet little old lady" - as if she were a beast to be wary of :w00t:

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Many people feel the same way about Jesus as you do. I believe different, but I don't begrudge anyone their Right to believe how they see fit and live their life the way they think is best.[/color][/size]

I'm not certain. The closest I can think of this is when Jesus asked his disciples who they thought he was. When they said they believed him to be the Messiah he warned them not to tell anyone (Mark 8:27-30). That's not quite the same as saying "don't worship me". It's more like "shh, it's a secret, don't let anyone else know until I'm ready to let them know". Other than that there are plenty of examples throughout the gospels where people do in fact worship Jesus and Jesus never rebukes them. Perhaps such a passage exists, but off the top of my head I cannot think of it (I suspect that if it does exist it is similar to the context of Mark 8:27-30, that Jesus says "don't worship me now, wait until the time is proper" - but as said, I'll have to see it to give proper insight).

How often does that happen? I've had meetings with JW's and Mormons before, but they are very infrequent (I haven't spoken to one in several years now). I actually enjoy being stopped by these types of people, I enjoy talking about this kind of thing. The last person to stop me was actually a Hare Krishna and we had a great old yarn about the history of Hinduism and how they saw Jesus as an incarnation of Krishna. I donated money to him for his cause and got a book to add to my library for my troubles. It was fun. But I understand that not all people enjoy talking about their beliefs to others.

I also found your use of language amusing - you were "cornered" by a "sweet little old lady" - as if she were a beast to be wary of :w00t:

Hmm... No, it was more like, "why do you call me god? I'm not god, don't worship me, worship the father" or something like that.

I have had a lot of people quote the Bible to me and the are usually the most hypocritical j.a.s on earth, so I now have very little tolerance for it.

Honestly, that little old lady was very sweet looking but she saw me coming from several hundred yards away and I tried to walk quickly to my car but she blocked me and used her sweet grandma voice to proselytize! I probably could have out run her but I had a very hot large coffee! :(

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Hmm... No, it was more like, "why do you call me god? I'm not god, don't worship me, worship the father" or something like that.

Ahh, is this perhaps it:

And a ruler asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone

~ Luke 18:18-19

That's the closest I can think of, though he says "why do you call me good" as opposed to "why do you call me god". What is of note is that there is no "don't worship me, worship the father". I'm not sure where that statement came from. As to the text, there are two ways of looking at it. Those who claim Jesus was an imperfect human like the rest of us take this passage as a declaration that only God is good, Jesus is not God, therefore Jesus is not "good". Those who believe Jesus was divine and sinless, they take this as a statement that only God is good, and since Jesus is God he is therefore "good". I tend to believe the latter.

Honestly, that little old lady was very sweet looking but she saw me coming from several hundred yards away and I tried to walk quickly to my car but she blocked me and used her sweet grandma voice to proselytize! I probably could have out run her but I had a very hot large coffee! :(

Fair enough. As I said, I enjoy these kind of meetings (several years ago, a Mormon asked me if I wanted to know the truth about Jesus, and I responded "I'd love to hear the truth about Jesus - would you?") :innocent:

But that's just me - I won't walk up to someone in the street and start preaching, but if they come to me I'll happily engage them. I think I live in a very different part of the world than you, though. Perhaps I would learn to hate proselytisers if I were accosted every time I went to the shops, but as noted I haven't been approached for years. The last time was in 2009, when a Hare Krishna spoke to me. Before that it was probably 2006 when I met up with a Mormon. Then, I guess my area of the world is the area of Australia with the largest multicultural population where 9-in-10 people come from non-English speaking backgrounds. That diversity leads to a lot of different beliefs coexisting together.

~ Regards, PA

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It's a form of narcissistic supply/megalomania, the only thing it truly supports is "god's" ego, and that is the only thing it is meant for.

http://en.wikipedia....sorder#Theories

A quote:

"In cases where the narcissistic personality-disordered individual feels a lack of admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation, he or she may also manifest a desire to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply)"

Well, an affirmation like that needs a reply on the same level...

God being humanities creator and being "God", not only richly deserves to be feared, and worshipped, but on him, it looks good.

That being said, I completely understand how you would equate God with a human being... and whatever "disorders" may be part of the human experience. It's just like a human being to rationalize things in his own level.

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I fully acknowledge that killing is done from both ends, I don't put believers into a special box in today's society but back in the day? Yes. non-believers/ Anti-religious people were ****ed if they were found to question god and the church back when - as Hitchens said - they were in power; so again, I am glad people had the balls to speak out against the totalitarianism and iron-fist oppression of the masses committed by the church and it's rulers. Sue Me.

Well, I don't see it that way. If you truly had had believers in control back then, things would have turned out quite differently. What you had was politicians, power mongers, and interested flunkies, who used religion to their own ends...

Let me compare it to a nation like Germany (I could theoretically use any nation on earth, but this one came 1st to mind) Because of Hitler, maybe we should do away with all germans (yes I know he was Austrian, but for the sake of the example let us ignore the obvious). Am I now to kill all germans because of Hitler, maybe we should do away with all Russians, because of Stalin, or all US Americans, because of what they did to the poor native Americans 200 years ago...

There are bad apples everywhere, but you would rather just destroy the institution, its much easier and is a perfect black and white situation. Much less of a headache, isn't it? Pity life is rarely black and white...

It's really funny, when the church brought forth human rights as a consequence of its teachings, somehow, and suddenly others get the credit, but not the church, but because the church was also intolerant of certain things, they are clearly the worst murderers in history. (Yes I know you didn't say that, but many others have, many, many times)

Edited by Jor-el

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Ok here you go.. How about this document - The Almanac Of Evil. Chapter 16 This chronologically documents the evil and criminal acts of the Vatican for the past 2000 years.

Of association/membership to a criminal organisation: (1513 – 1521 CE) That the person known as Pope Leo X, also known as “De craticula Politiana”, the 63rd Pope according to the prophecy of St Malachy, was both a member and leader of an organisation known as “Christianity” first established and subsequently maintained for the sole purpose of organized criminal enterprise. That in his capacity of leader of this organized criminal enterprise did direct for numerous criminal acts to be undertaken including, but not limited to: murder, fraud, extortion, kidnapping, rape, incest and lowering of public morals.

med_forgery.jpg Of publishing false statements for the purpose of extortion (1513) That Pope Leo X granted to the Servite Chapel of St.Annunciata at Florence that all visiting it on Saturdays should obtain a thousand years of indulgences and as many quarantines, and double that amount on the feasts of Virgin, Christmas and Friday and Saturday of Holy Week.

med_ritual_blasphemy.jpg Of open heresy and contempt for church doctrine: (1513 – 1521) That Pope Leo X did show open contempt as to the fraudulent and corrupt nature of both the gospels and the Catholic church in his infamous quote: "How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us". That this quote was later included in the play by John Bale called The Pageant of the Popes.

med_murder.jpg Of murder: (1513 – 1521) That Pope Leo X did murder several Cardinals who did oppose his Papacy.

Source - http://one-faith-of-...l/evil_0160.htm

BM, I said the exact same thing, I don't deny the guy was the worst kind of person, I personally stated all of what you said earlier.

That being said, that particular Pope was anything but a believer, just as the one before him. They were politicians, pure and simple. Murder, Rape, Blackmail, Coercion, Fraud, all was acceptable, to gain the highest office in the land and keep it... Real believing christians were slaughtered left right and center by these mens unquenchable thirst for power. Let their family names bring what you know of history to mind, the de' Medicis' and the Borgia.

But I do find it strange that one can invent a quote from a play and take it as historical, just because of that. That quote has a number of subtle implications, based on a false premise of modern interpretation. I argue because of those modern interpretations. To use the quote as if it had some authority because it "supposedly" came from a Pope is being a little underhanded. It is using a false quote, to support a false argument.

Like I said, find a historical document that actually has that quote.... it simply does not exist.

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Well, I don't see it that way. If you had truly had believers in control back then, things would have turned out quite differently. What you had was politicians, power mongers, and interested flunkies, who used religion to their own ends...

Let me compare it to a nation like Germany (I could theoretically use any nation on earth, but this one came 1st to mind) Because of Hitler, maybe we should do away with all germans (yes I know he was Austrian, but for the sake of the example let us ignore the obvious). Am I now to kill all germans because of Hitler, maybe we should do away with all Russians, because of Stalin, or all US Americans, because of what they did to the poor native Americans 200 years ago...

There are bad apples everywhere, but you would rather just destroy the institution, its much easier and is a perfect black and white situation. Much less of a headache, isn't it? Pity life is rarely black and white...

It's really funny, when the church brought forth human rights as a consequence of its teachings, somehow, and suddenly others get the credit, but not the church, but because the church was also intolerant of certain things, they are clearly the worst murderers in history. (Yes I know you didn't say that, but many others have, many, many times)

I never said I want to see all religious people wiped from the earth, what I said was that religious totalitarianism and repression needs to go - fundamentalism. And you may have read in one or two of my previous posts, I would like to see the eradication of fundamentalism from both sides (Belief and Atheism) so that the debates and discussions about god, religion etc. can be square and talked about freely without threats of death put towards the participants...we're getting there.

The problem is, people are taking bronze age books of myths and legends at face value and using their mostly out-dated and rather dastardly laws and conventions in their stride and these people scare me. Also back then a lot of people were believers they just believed they had God on their sides and probably relished in books like Leviticus and the less-fair laws of the time. We're getting better that's for sure, but we didn't get better with religion, we got better when we realized that our nature was barbaric and cruel; of course, this cannot be said for every part of the world.

Edited by Sean93
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But I do find it strange that one can invent a quote from a play and take it as historical, just because of that. That quote has a number of subtle implications, based on a false premise of modern interpretation. I argue because of those modern interpretations. To use the quote as if it had some authority because it "supposedly" came from a Pope is being a little underhanded. It is using a false quote, to support a false argument.

Like I said, find a historical document that actually has that quote.... it simply does not exist.

Do you honestly think for a second I would be able to get my hands on the actual document itself that shows the quote from the Vatican? How easy is that?

You have nothing (and I mean nothing ) to prove it was false.. Just because you claim you cannot find a Vatican document with the quote, does not in any way mean he never said it.. The document I posted above was close enough.. You can hang on to whatever opinion and belief you so wish, but I found something you couldn't, and frankly it is good enough

Further more, Pope Leo X came from one of the top most powerful families of history .. He was a Medici ..I'd say because of his powerful position, he would find something like that very easy to say.. Who was going to challenge him?

The Mèdici family was a powerful and influential Florentine family from the 13th to 17th century. The family had three popes (Leo X – pictured above, Clement VII, and Leo XI), numerous rulers of Florence (notably Lorenzo the Magnificent, patron of some of the most famous works of Renaissance art) and later members of the French and English royalty http://listverse.com...lies-in-history

That document that lists the popes quote, stated it was later used by John Bale, who was also a church man and an historian .. Info on that is - John Bale (21 November 1495 – November 1563) was an English churchman, historian and controversialist, and Bishop of Ossory. He wrote the oldest known historical verse drama in English (on the subject of King John), and developed and published a very extensive list of the works of British authors down to his own time, just as the monastic libraries were being dispersed. His unhappy disposition and habit of quarreling earned him the nickname "bilious Bale". http://en.wikipedia....iki/John_Bale

Edited by Beckys_Mom
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Ahh, is this perhaps it:

And a ruler asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone

~ Luke 18:18-19

That's the closest I can think of, though he says "why do you call me good" as opposed to "why do you call me god". What is of note is that there is no "don't worship me, worship the father". I'm not sure where that statement came from. As to the text, there are two ways of looking at it. Those who claim Jesus was an imperfect human like the rest of us take this passage as a declaration that only God is good, Jesus is not God, therefore Jesus is not "good". Those who believe Jesus was divine and sinless, they take this as a statement that only God is good, and since Jesus is God he is therefore "good". I tend to believe the latter.

Fair enough. As I said, I enjoy these kind of meetings (several years ago, a Mormon asked me if I wanted to know the truth about Jesus, and I responded "I'd love to hear the truth about Jesus - would you?") :innocent:

But that's just me - I won't walk up to someone in the street and start preaching, but if they come to me I'll happily engage them. I think I live in a very different part of the world than you, though. Perhaps I would learn to hate proselytisers if I were accosted every time I went to the shops, but as noted I haven't been approached for years. The last time was in 2009, when a Hare Krishna spoke to me. Before that it was probably 2006 when I met up with a Mormon. Then, I guess my area of the world is the area of Australia with the largest multicultural population where 9-in-10 people come from non-English speaking backgrounds. That diversity leads to a lot of different beliefs coexisting together.

~ Regards, PA

Hawai`i is the same, there is a lot of diversity here. Religions from all over the world are practiced here.

I used to be open to conversation about it but the proselytisers (all have been some form of Christianity) were not open to a "discussion" only to telling me that whatever I believed was "bull shti" and then get scolded. I've since stopped engaging. The worst part of being acosted by these people is that they are always wanting to preach when I'm in a hurry or I'm busy... <_< I usually say something to the effect of, Sounds like you are really excited to share your faith but I need to go... ;)

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I never said I want to see all religious people wiped from the earth, what I said was that religious totalitarianism and repression needs to go - fundamentalism. And you may have read in one or two of my previous posts, I would like to see the eradication of fundamentalism from both sides (Belief and Atheism) so that the debates and discussions about god, religion etc. can be square and talked about freely without threats of death put towards the participants...we're getting there.

The problem is, people are taking bronze age books of myths and legends at face value and using their mostly out-dated and rather dastardly laws and conventions in their stride and these people scare me. Also back then a lot of people were believers they just believed they had God on their sides and probably relished in books like Leviticus and the less-fair laws of the time. We're getting better that's for sure, but we didn't get better with religion, we got better when we realized that our nature was barbaric and cruel; of course, this cannot be said for every part of the world.

If our nature is barbaric and cruel, and it is, no matter the layers of "civilization" heaped upon us, then we are NOT getting there... the corruption is merely hidden under fine layers of silk now...

I see religion as a problem, because it breeds sheep who do not think for themselves, the idea that following rites, is what God wants, where what God wants is our lives in dedication to him. When that is done, his nature comes out through us, and that nature has always been of love and mercy. As the good book plainly puts it..

Mark 12:28-31

The Greatest Commandment

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

Do you happen to know happen to know what books Jesus is quoting above?

Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

Let me put it plainly, we are not Jews to be held to the Law of Moses, we are gentiles held to a higher Law, the Law as put in those verses above. If that were not the truth the church would have died soon after Jesus Crucifixion. What people saw in those early christians was love, compassion, an example above all others... not stoning people, not burning people, not killing those who disagreed.

When did those things come into christianity?

When it effectively became the government... when it became the seat of power... it immediately attracted the sharks, the wolves and the rest of us have been prey ever since... It is not the fundamentalist that should be your problem, I consider myself to be one, it is the judgmentalist.

Edited by Jor-el

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If our nature is barbaric and cruel, and it is, no matter the layers of "civilization" heaped upon us, then we are NOT getting there... the corruption is merely hidden under fine layers of silk now...

I see religion as a problem, because it breeds sheep who do not think for themselves, the idea that following rites, is what God wants, where what God wants is our lives in dedication to him. When that is done, his nature comes out through us, and that nature has always been of love and mercy. As the good book plainly puts it..

Mark 12:28-31

The Greatest Commandment

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

Do you happen to know happen to know what books Jesus is quoting above?

Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

Let me put it plainly, we are not Jews to be held to the Law of Moses, we are gentiles held to a higher Law, the Law as put in those verses above. If that were not the truth the church would have died soon after Jesus Crucifixion. What people saw in those early christians was love, compassion, an example above all others... not stoning people, not burning people, not killing those who disagreed.

When did those things come into christianity?

When it effectively became the government... when it became the seat of power... it immediately attracted the sharks, the wolves and the rest of us have been prey ever since... It is not the fundamentalist that should be your problem, I consider myself to be one, it is the judgmentalist.

...And when the Old Testament was kept in the bible as canonical, including the barbarism of Leviticus which allowed burning and stoning to death among others; the book is the word of god so if he said it and it's there then it counts; so the laws of Leviticus still stand even if society has moved on from them in most parts of the world. As a fundamentalist, do you believe Leviticus is right and would you follow it to the word if society permitted it?

How can you say that society has not gotten any better....I'm still alive now and haven't got bible-totttin' nut-jobs burning me alive among other things. Now that you've said you're a fundamentalist, I can understand you more clearly now in terms of your religious stance, thanks for putting that out there.

Also, trivial question but for my own interests...Do you believe in a young Earth?

Edited by Sean93

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Do you honestly think for a second I would be able to get my hands on the actual document itself that shows the quote from the Vatican? How easy is that?

You have nothing (and I mean nothing ) to prove it was false.. Just because you claim you cannot find a Vatican document with the quote, does not in any way mean he never said it.. The document I posted above was close enough.. You can hang on to whatever opinion and belief you so wish, but I found something you couldn't, and frankly it is good enough

Further more, Pope Leo X came from one of the top most powerful families of history .. He was a Medici ..I'd say because of his powerful position, he would find something like that very easy to say.. Who was going to challenge him?

The Mèdici family was a powerful and influential Florentine family from the 13th to 17th century. The family had three popes (Leo X – pictured above, Clement VII, and Leo XI), numerous rulers of Florence (notably Lorenzo the Magnificent, patron of some of the most famous works of Renaissance art) and later members of the French and English royalty http://listverse.com...lies-in-history

I finally understood what you were trying to say... the link provided a source for the quote... Annales Ecclesiastici, Caesar Baronius, Folio Antwerp, 1597, tome 14.

The point, is BM that you don't have to go to the Vatican archives or library to get hold of the document, I quickly found a link Dr. D. posted for it , you can read it online.... although it is in Latin. ;)

Source: http://archive.org/details/annalesecclesias14baro

Now heres the latin phrase in Question "quantum nobis notrisque hace fabula de Christo profuerit notum est", go for it...

I downloaded the PDF version and just searched for individual words or parts of the phrase... it ain't there.

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...And when the Old Testament was kept in the bible as canonical, including the barbarism of Leviticus which allowed burning and stoning to death among others; the book is the word of god so if he said it and it's there then it counts; so the laws of Leviticus still stand even if society has moved on from them in most parts of the world. As a fundamentalist, do you believe Leviticus is right and would you follow it to the word if society permitted it?

How can you say that society has not gotten any better....I'm still alive now and haven't got bible-totttin' nut-jobs burning me alive among other things. Now that you've said you're a fundamentalist, I can understand you more clearly now in terms of your religious stance, thanks for putting that out there.

Also, trivial question but for my own interests...Do you believe in a young Earth?

If I was Jewish, living in Old Testament times, yes that would have been the Law, although historically you'll find very little actual evidence that such things were done by Jews regularly.

As a christian and a gentile, no I would not have followed those laws for the simple reason that Jesus himself clarified definitely what God wanted of us, and it wasn't burning people, or stoning them, he himself had a chance to uphold that particular law, if you remember, and he chose a different path.

Those laws were radical for a specific reason, and that was to show that no-one can live up to them and that the only true path was to plead mercy to God in sincere repentance for the hurt we cause others and ourselves by our acts.

It took a few hundred years for the message to start sinking in to the general human population of the time.

Society is getting worse and worse, not better and better... nihlism in my view is greatly responsible for that. Interestingly enough that was Nietzches greatest fear when he wrote about God being dead. In essence when Nietzche and others later on decided to attack religion, they also attacked the moral fibre of our civilization. Now that is my view, you don't have to accept that. We talked about this very thing a few pages back. We are headed for a precipice, and it will be our undoing.

The nut jobs are people who have not yet learned a basic truth about Jesus and their faith, or they forget it in their zeal... Jesus did not come to condemn but to free people, he came in love, not with a stone in his hand. By all means, they can disagree and be quite loud about it, but that after all is their right. What they cannot do is condemn people for not agreeing with them.

That particular lesson was learned by the church and forgotten a number of times cyclically over the centuries... I particularly have a strong distaste of things that I often read about in regards to the actions of some believers, like the Westboro Baptist Church...

godhatessign.jpg

So... wheres the "LOVE OF GOD"?

As for the last question... go here

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I finally understood what you were trying to say... the link provided a source for the quote... Annales Ecclesiastici, Caesar Baronius, Folio Antwerp, 1597, tome 14.

The point, is BM that you don't have to go to the Vatican archives or library to get hold of the document, I quickly found a link Dr. D. posted for it , you can read it online.... although it is in Latin. ;)

Source: http://archive.org/d...ecclesias14baro

Now heres the latin phrase in Question "quantum nobis notrisque hace fabula de Christo profuerit notum est", go for it...

I downloaded the PDF version and just searched for individual words or parts of the phrase... it ain't there.

Please by all means, feel free to read the following..

Raising a chalice of wine into the air,
Pope Leo
toasted:.....
.
"How well we know what a profitable superstition
this fable of
Christ
has been for us and our predecessors."

The pope's pronouncement is recorded in the diaries and records of both
Pietro Cardinal Bembo
(Letters and Comments on Pope Leo X, 1842 reprint) and
Paolo Cardinal Giovio (De Vita Leonis Decimi..., op. cit.)
, two associates who were witnesses to it.

Caesar (Cardinal) Baronius (1538-1607) was Vatican librarian for seven years and wrote a 12-volume history of the Church, known as Annales Ecclesiastici. He was the Church's most outstanding historian (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, 1976, ii, p. 105) and his records provide vital inside information for anybody studying the rich depth of falsification in Christianity.

Cardinal Baronius, who turned down two offers to become pope in 1605, added the following comments about Pope Leo's declaration:

"The Pontiff has been accused of atheism, for he denied God and called Christ, in front of cardinals Pietro Bembo, Jovius and Iacopo Sadoleto and other intimates, 'a fable' ... it must be corrected".

(Annales Ecclesiastici, op. cit., tomes viii and xi)

In an early edition of the
Catholic Encyclopedia
(Pecci ed., iii, pp. 312-314, passim), the Church devoted two-and-half pages in
an attempt to nullify the most destructive statement ever made by the head of Christianity
. It based the essence of its argument on the assumption that what the pope meant by "profitable" was "gainful", and "fable" was intended to mean "tradition".

Hence, confused Catholic theologians argued that what the pope really meant was,

"How well Christians have gained from this wonderful tradition of Christ".

But that isn't what he said.

It is from Christianity's own records that Pope Leo's statement became known to the world. In his diaries,
Cardinal Bembo
, the Pope's secretary for seven years, added that Leo:

"...was known to disbelieve Christianity itself. He advanced contrary to the faith and that in condemning the Gospel, therefore he must be a heretic; he was guilty of sodomy with his chamberlains; was addicted to pleasure, luxury, idleness, ambition, unchastity and sensuality; and spent his whole days in the company of musicians and buffoons. His Infallibility's drunkenness was proverbial, he practiced incontinency as well as inebriation, and the effects of his crimes shattered the people's constitution."

(Letters and Comments on Pope Leo X, ibid.)

On behalf of the Church,
Cardinal Baronius
officially defended Pope Leo's declaration, saying it was "an invention of his corroded mind"
(Annales Ecclesiastici, op. cit., tome iv)
, but in applauding the pope's tyrannical conduct supported the essence of his testimony on the grounds of the infallibility of the Church of Rome:

"Of his wicked miscarriages, we, having had before a careful deliberation with our brethren and the Holy Council, and many others, and although he was unworthy to hold the place of St Peter on Earth, Pope Leo the Great [440-461] originally determined that the dignity of Peter suffers no diminution even in an unworthy successor.

In regard to the keys, as Vicar of Christ he rendered himself to put forth this knowledge truly; and all do assent to it, so that none dissent who does not fall from the Church; the infamy of his testimonial and conduct is readily pardoned and forgotten."

(Annales Ecclesiastici, ibid.)

Later
,
John Bale
(1495-1563) seized upon Pope Leo's confession and the subsequent Vatican admission that the pope had spoken the truth about the "fable of Christ" and "put forward this knowledge truly" (Annales Ecclesiastici, ibid.). Bale was an Englishman who had earlier joined the Carmelites but abandoned the order after the Inquisition slaughtered his family (Of the Five Plagues of the Church [originally titled The Five Wounds of the Church],
Count Antonio Rosmini
[Catholic priest and papal adviser], 1848, English trans. by Prof. David L. Wilhelm, Russell Square Publishing, London, 1889).

http://www.bibliotec..._vatican30c.htm

And, on that note it is over for me.. I have read more than enough to convince me that indeed he did say it.. You can carry on trying to drag this on and on IF you wish..but I stop at this.. I am happy enough with what I have read and I need not get into this any further.. I don't always have the time ( due to having a new baby around the house ) ..So forgive me, but I am not going to waste any more time, searching, downloading and the rest that goes with it If you disagree with it all fine, but it wont change my own position.... I am convinced enough with what I have found and posted..

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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Please by all means, feel free to read the following..

And, on that note it is over for me.. I have read more than enough to convince me that indeed he did say it.. You can carry on trying to drag this on and on IF you wish..but I stop at this.. I am happy enough with what I have read and I need not get into this any further.. I don't always have the time ( due to having a new baby around the house ) ..So forgive me, but I am not going to waste any more time, searching, downloading and the rest that goes with it If you disagree with it all fine, but it wont change my own position.... I am convinced enough with what I have found and posted..

I did read it, it was posted on UM in another thread on this issue...

Well... I did bother and I did take the trouble (hours of it) to check...

Letters and Comments on Pope Leo X, 1842 reprint by Pietro Bembo

Regarding the above book, it does NOT exist, except as a vague link in publications like the one you just quoted. Mainly the source is quoted verbatim on numerous sites... I did find a copy of a book called "De Lettere" written by him. I will see if it is there it will take some time to go through it.

Source: http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Paolo Cardinal Giovio - De Vita Leonis Decimi (Paulus Jovius - Vita De Leonis X)

The book can be found online and again it is not there.

Source: http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/scanned/paulo_giovio_de_leonis_x.htm

I would readily accept it if there were such a document, but what we do seem to have is a very interesting fraud. I'll see whether the 1st book I linked above confirms the "rumour"... or not.

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Why would anybody worship a god that allows children to be molested and killed? If you want my worship you need to give something in return.

What has god not given you?

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Letters and Comments on Pope Leo X, 1842 reprint by Pietro Bembo

Regarding the above book, it does NOT exist, except as a vague link in publications like the one you just quoted. Mainly the source is quoted verbatim on numerous sites...

Paolo Cardinal Giovio - De Vita Leonis Decimi (Paulus Jovius - Vita De Leonis X)

The book can be found online and again it is not there.

Inventing sources is not a new practice for those wishing to push an agenda. I'm not surprised that the two texts quoted either 1- don't exist, or 2- if they exist they contain no such quote.

Unfortunately the internet is filled with bad research, and people who look at websites aren't aware that the person has fraudulently quoted something.

Edited by Paranoid Android
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We can quibble for a million more years and continue not to look at the resurection of souls who have come to life again because of the gospel... I have seen too much holy ghost power to reject christ over anyones interpretation of a certain text. God jumped out of the text... boo! Didnt mean to spook you... God is real and so are his messengers and saviors dispite who was in charge of documents... etc... judiasm is far more historic than the pope and his unbelieving dinner party...

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I did read it, it was posted on UM in another thread on this issue...

Well... I did bother and I did take the trouble (hours of it) to check...

Letters and Comments on Pope Leo X, 1842 reprint by Pietro Bembo

Regarding the above book, it does NOT exist, except as a vague link in publications like the one you just quoted. Mainly the source is quoted verbatim on numerous sites... I did find a copy of a book called "De Lettere" written by him. I will see if it is there it will take some time to go through it.

Source: http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Paolo Cardinal Giovio - De Vita Leonis Decimi (Paulus Jovius - Vita De Leonis X)

The book can be found online and again it is not there.

Source: http://www.tertullia...de_leonis_x.htm

I would readily accept it if there were such a document, but what we do seem to have is a very interesting fraud. I'll see whether the 1st book I linked above confirms the "rumour"... or not.

Are you saying, that because something that you find cannot be referenced on the internet, then it does not exist?................. Like this one -Annales Ecclesiastici, op. cit., tomes viii and xi In an early edition of the Catholic Encyclopaedia

Caesar (Cardinal) Baronius (1538-1607) was Vatican librarian for seven years and wrote a 12-volume history of the Church, known as Annales Ecclesiastici. He was the Church's most outstanding historian (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, 1976, ii, p. 105) and his records provide vital inside information for anybody studying the rich depth of falsification in Christianity. Cardinal Baronius, who turned down two offers to become pope in 1605, added the following comments about Pope Leo's declaration:

"The Pontiff has been accused of atheism, for he denied God and called Christ, in front of cardinals Pietro Bembo, Jovius and Iacopo Sadoleto and other intimates, 'a fable' ... it must be corrected".

(Annales Ecclesiastici, op. cit., tomes viii and xi) His book with that info can indeed be found here -> http://books.google....id=dPI-AAAAcAAJ

Paolo Cardinal Giovio's De Vita Leonis Decimi ( The Life Of Leo ) found here -> http://www.tertullia..._leonis_x.htm I'll tell you one thing, I am not taking up Italian just so I can translate it to add to this discussion

BM, I said the exact same thing, I don't deny the guy was the worst kind of person, I personally stated all of what you said earlier.

That being said, that particular Pope was anything but a believer, just as the one before him. They were politicians, pure and simple. Murder, Rape, Blackmail, Coercion, Fraud, all was acceptable, to gain the highest office in the land and keep it... Real believing christians were slaughtered left right and center by these mens unquenchable thirst for power. Let their family names bring what you know of history to mind, the de' Medicis' and the Borgia.

What I do find strange and a tad ironic is.. how some believers, will have no problem in believing that this very same pope was corrupted ( murder, rape, blackmail and so on ) BUT there is no way he would have said anything like that ? Really now?

That's like saying -> "Here is Pope Numpty lll, he is guilty of fraud rape, kidnapping, the occasional act of murder, but hey at least he didn't eat meat on a Friday.. Don't dare suggest he would do such a horrid thing, because eating meat on a Friday back then was just so wrong.. :huh:..... He was the most powerful man in the land, who was going to hold him accountable for it? Whether he said this line or not? I seriously cannot understand your denial of this issue, but I can see the irony of your statement!

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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What I do find strange and a tad ironic is.. how some believers, will have no problem in believing that this very same pope was corrupted ( murder, rape, blackmail and so on ) BUT there is no way he would have said anything like that ?

It's not a matter of being ironic. It's an historically verifiable fact that Pope Leo X was a villain. There is plenty of evidence that this is the case. It is not an historically verifiable fact that Pope Leo X said anything about the myth/fable of Christ. Is it something Pope Leo MIGHT have said, or COULD have said? Very possibly. But is it something he DID say? As far as we know, there's no evidence of that. The earliest known source for the quote is a work of fiction satirising the Catholic Church. The sites you posted before are (according to Jor-el) either inventing the book entirely or attributing something to the book that is not there. Considering that elsewhere on the net I have found many many sources that admit John Bale as the most likely origin of the quote, the logical answer to this is that somehow the sites you quoted mixed up their information.

~ Regards, PA

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What has god not given you?

What has this so called god not given me? I'll tell you what it's given me, a life of depression, despair, and grief after I lost my wife and child that's what it's given me. Any more questions?

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Are you saying, that because something that you find cannot be referenced on the internet, then it does not exist?................. Like this one -Annales Ecclesiastici, op. cit., tomes viii and xi In an early edition of the Catholic Encyclopaedia

If it cannot be found in any database, then yes, we must doubt its existence. We don't have to neccesarily have it online, but translations of the book should exist by scholars, mention of the book should exist elswhere beside the conspiracy theory sites you have mentioned. They are actually the ONLY ONES who mention the book at all.

The book in question, (to be absolutely clear) is Letters and Comments on Pope Leo X, 1842 reprint by Cardinal Pietro Bembo. I will even accept other versions of the book, not just the reprint of 1842. Most books have been published time and again over the years and centuries. How can this book not be mentioned absolutely anywhere, but the conspiracy sites? Amazon or any other online retailer should have the book for sale. Universities should mention it in their studies and their bibliographies and Finally, when you look up all the works ever published by Pietro Bembo. The book appears nowhere at all.... That to me is a huge andicator that something smells fishy.

That being said I did find a book called Lettere by Cardinal Bembo, if this is the book inwhich the allegation is made, I will find it. and publish it here, the same being said if I don't find it. I'm looking for any reference to the dinner inwhich Leo X supposedly stated this quote. I will look up the names of the supposed witnesses and check if they even appear in the book.

We can quote numerous people who relate the quotes in books and sites, like the one you posted below, the point is are those quotes truthful? Do they actually exist? It is very easy to say that something is quoted in a book, if one wants to maintain a modicum of Honesty, the quote had better be there.

Caesar (Cardinal) Baronius (1538-1607) was Vatican librarian for seven years and wrote a 12-volume history of the Church, known as Annales Ecclesiastici. He was the Church's most outstanding historian (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, 1976, ii, p. 105) and his records provide vital inside information for anybody studying the rich depth of falsification in Christianity. Cardinal Baronius, who turned down two offers to become pope in 1605, added the following comments about Pope Leo's declaration:

"The Pontiff has been accused of atheism, for he denied God and called Christ, in front of cardinals Pietro Bembo, Jovius and Iacopo Sadoleto and other intimates, 'a fable' ... it must be corrected".

(Annales Ecclesiastici, op. cit., tomes viii and xi) His book with that info can indeed be found here -> http://books.google....id=dPI-AAAAcAAJ

Again, to be quite clear, the reference is given to two individual books, Tome (Volume) VIII and Tome XI.

Annales Ecclesiastici, Volume VIII

In volume 8, we find the word fable "fabula" 3 times (pgs 339, 513 and 546). Not once in connection with Leo X or even regarding said quote.

Annales Ecclesiastici, Volume XI

In volume 11, the word fable "fabula" doesn't even appear.

I also searched in both volumes, the names of Pietro Bembo, Paolo Cardinal Giovio and Iacopo Sadoleto... I found nothing, zero, they are not even mentioned, not even when searched by surname alone. Come on, this just begs the question, why are these quotes supposedly being used when the books themselves don't even have them?

Paolo Cardinal Giovio's De Vita Leonis Decimi ( The Life Of Leo ) found here -> http://www.tertullia..._leonis_x.htm I'll tell you one thing, I am not taking up Italian just so I can translate it to add to this discussion

Yes BM, I myself gave you that link earlier on, the word fable "fabula", does not appear once. You don't have to take Italian, or Latin, you have a search function, use it and then use a translator. You can get the jist of the meaning quite clearly. The context is immediately apparant.

http://translate.google.com/

What I do find strange and a tad ironic is.. how some believers, will have no problem in believing that this very same pope was corrupted ( murder, rape, blackmail and so on ) BUT there is no way he would have said anything like that ? Really now?

That's like saying -> "Here is Pope Numpty lll, he is guilty of fraud rape, kidnapping, the occasional act of murder, but hey at least he didn't eat meat on a Friday.. Don't dare suggest he would do such a horrid thing, because eating meat on a Friday back then was just so wrong.. :huh:..... He was the most powerful man in the land, who was going to hold him accountable for it? Whether he said this line or not? I seriously cannot understand your denial of this issue, but I can see the irony of your statement!

BM, I have not once said that I don't believe or cannot believe that this Pope could not have said those words. What I do not accept is the historical accuracy of the alleged quote. There is no record that I have found that even mentions the subject... except in the very conspiracy sites I mentioned earlier. Could he have said it? Sure, Do we have any evidence in the records of such a thing? NO

Probability is NOT History. The quote is probably false and if that book I promised to search also has nothing, then it is DEFINITELY false. My last word on this subject will be the details of my findings.

Edited by Jor-el
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What kind of cookie??? <_<:huh:

Oops sorry, I have been away for seven days and seven nights and I have in my hand a divine cookie. Divine is a special flavour kinda like chocolate or strawberry, just more aloof!

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