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blind pew

Why?

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So it was ok to rape and murder the Canaanites because there were subhuman. Where have I head the one before...

Rape?

They were all killed without exception, that was the command.

And yes I agree that it might seem deplorable viewed from our oh so modern veneer of civilization, however shallow that might truly be. According to God, humans are meant to be human, not halfbreeds with non human DNA.

And I'm stating this because that is exactly what those people were reported to be, descendents of the Nephilim. This was not a case of considering another person subhuman because they didn't belong to a specific tribe, or because they belonged to a tribe who was considered an enemy. It was in fact a case of fighting a people that were human/non-human hybrids.

Humanity has a long history of considering others to be subhuman, white to black, Yellow, to white, short to tall, women to men. Yet, this is not what this killing was about. You may feel that to be an excuse, but according to the biblical record, those tribes were hybrids, not merely an enemy occupying a land they wanted.

Edited by Jor-el

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Why would anybody worship a god that allows children to be molested and killed? If you want my worship you need to give something in return.

One last theodical thread for 2012, ok I'm in. What you are describing is one part of the perennial Problem of Evil aka theodicy. Your question is easily answered, and has been already in this thread. The simple answer of course is free will.

The other part of theodicy is natural evil. You can find stacks of books on moral evil in college libraries. Books on natural evil however can be counted on one hand.

By natural evil we mean things like earthquakes, tsunamis, famine, ebola and HIV. More obvious are things that are inherent in creation, i.e. carnivores and hundreds of millions of years of pain,suffering and death, otherwise known as evolution.

If you apply your question why? to natural evil there are only a handful of answers, none of them are satisfactory.

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Rape?

They were all killed without exception, that was the command.

And yes I agree that it might seem deplorable viewed from our oh so modern veneer of civilization, however shallow that might truly be. According to God, humans are meant to be human, not halfbreeds with non human DNA.

And I'm stating this because that is exactly what those people were reported to be, descendents of the Nephilim. This was not a case of considering another person subhuman because they didn't belong to a specific tribe, or because they belonged to a tribe who was considered an enemy. It was in fact a case of fighting a people that were human/non-human hybrids.

Humanity has a long history of considering others to be subhuman, white to black, Yellow, to white, short to tall, women to men. Yet, this is not what this killing was about. You may feel that to be an excuse, but according to the biblical record, those tribes were hybrids, not merely an enemy occupying a land they wanted.

There is very little fact in what you are saying, it was a just a case of the victors writing history. There were no hybrids. it is just an excuse for genocide. I would think a god would be at a higher evolutionary place than I a mer human and would find genocide to be at least as abhorrent as I do. If you take the time to look at real history you would be amazed how much the Bible got wrong. Which is not surprising, being it is based on hearsay and camp stories.

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There is very little fact in what you are saying, it was a just a case of the victors writing history. There were no hybrids. it is just an excuse for genocide. I would think a god would be at a higher evolutionary place than I a mer human and would find genocide to be at least as abhorrent as I do. If you take the time to look at real history you would be amazed how much the Bible got wrong. Which is not surprising, being it is based on hearsay and camp stories.

That's the difference between opposing views. It doesn't change what the bible states.

It is interesting that as old as mankind is, even up to the modern era, the story remains the same, we simply call it by another name... alien abduction and hybridization.

http://sureynot.com/v/189/aod-2004-michael-s-heiser,-genesis-6-hybridization.html

Edited by Jor-el

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I have no idea why? I may follow God, but I cannot speak on Gods behalf, I don't believe anyone truly can, never have done either ... I never dwell on it either.. I just get through each day as it comes..

Edited by Beckys_Mom
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You think that all modern troubles are punishable by the absurdities in Leviticus? It' also important to note that a few of those places you mentioned do such terrible things in their societies with ease because of their religions (killing un-loyal women, gays, refusing to marry etc. , especially the middle east where, in a lot of places, death is the norm for apostates...just look it up, it's a ******* mess that place.

Also, you said " God or no God, people still have the ability to know right from wrong and choose one or the other". Was this a slip on on your part or do you believe that we don't need God to be good and that objective moral values are a lie?

I was responding to a point made that modern educated people wouldn't devise or live by a code like leviticus. Of course, in reality, they do People are all differnt; modernity changes nothing, each individuual and every society lives by the codes it creates or accepts.

Philosophically, and in reality, god is not relvant to human morality. God may give us one reason to choose creative or destructive actions, but whether god exists or not humans will do so, any way.

The christian religion is based on a set of laws built around a set of moral premises. Those premises sometimes apply to humans in general sometimes to how treat humans within a certian social and cutural framework One can agree or disagree withthe morality of individual or social laws within a book like the bible but they are set in a cintext for a specifici purpose They were written in a time when individual rights as such did not exist, and every ones duty was to a society family clan or other group. The concept of basic individual rights for all is a quite modern one and is still evoving even now.

Gays have been killed for many reasons in past societies. In others they are celebrated and revered. It depends on whether they could serve a social function in the society or whether they were seen as adanger to the society. Same with peole seena s differnt in any wayreligion is a social function of socirty not society an dexpresion of religion tha tis the nature of religion Thus humans would treat each other just the same in a non religious society, if such a thing could ever exist.

So today I would obey many of the laws of the bible becusethey are sensible healthproducing, emotionally and psycholgicaly empowering and good for me and for my society Most of the laws would exist in anon religious society anyway to order and regulate our behaviours. But no i wouldn't stone my wife for infidelity, or a gay person for being gay. They are no threat to me and little to my society, but that was not always the case.

I would, however, personally execute or kill anyone who posed a real threat to me, my family, my neighbourhood or innocent people anywhere. I dont believe everyone has an innate right to life. We lose that right based on how we chose to behave, just as we lose our right to freedom through certain behaviour.

Humans create our values based on need. There are recognised individual ethics, social ethics, and universal ethics. But i believe universal ethics are non existent. All ethics and moralities are contextual and all are created, logically, as a means of optimising outcomes for people.

Often they are designed to optimise outcomes for the majority at the expense of a minority or of individuals, but that is also a contextual ethical value. Today we tend to put the rights of individuals above those of society. One of our modern failings in my opinion. None of us can survive outside of our society, and so our highest priority should be strengthening our society.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Why would anybody worship a god that allows children to be molested and killed? If you want my worship you need to give something in return.

He's given us all life, free will, and his only son's life. What praytell hasn't he given you for you to worship him?

Children are molested and killed by our free will because he loves us enough not to intervene. If he intervene's we become robots, with no free will of our own. Besides, the unjust will get what they deserve after death, and the innocent children will get what they deserve after death. The children can still if abused, grow up to become good, and the children that die automatically are God's.

I think God's done well over enough for us, and that perhaps WE are the ones that need to give something in return.

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Why would anybody worship a god that allows children to be molested and killed? If you want my worship you need to give something in return.

because god doesn't allow or disallow anything that happens here. that's where your problem lies - in thinking someone owes you a life free of strife and pain

Edited by JGirl
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because god doesn't allow or disallow anything that happens here. that's where your problem lies - in thinking someone owes you a life free of strife and pain

So you don't care about innocent children?

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So you don't care about innocent children?

One can care about people without blaming god for their predicament. Ask any atheist.
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One can care about people without blaming god for their predicament. Ask any atheist.

But why worship a god that does nothing to prevent things like what happened in Newton? He would be absolutely worthless.

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He's given us all life, free will, and his only son's life. What praytell hasn't he given you for you to worship him?

Children are molested and killed by our free will because he loves us enough not to intervene. If he intervene's we become robots, with no free will of our own. Besides, the unjust will get what they deserve after death, and the innocent children will get what they deserve after death. The children can still if abused, grow up to become good, and the children that die automatically are God's.

I think God's done well over enough for us, and that perhaps WE are the ones that need to give something in return.

I never asked for this life.

I don't know if there is some divine plan that has been set in motion that hangs over my life but if I could ask of God only one thing it would to have never been born in the first place to be non-existent and oblivious to everything. so just because you say "He gave us life" doesn't make your argument a winner because no one asked for it in the first place and a small number of people who've been snatched from the comfort of non-existence and put into this world would rather have not had such a thing happen an I am one of them.

You might find this depressing or it may offend your belief of life being sacred but I don't care what you think, that's as plain as I'll put it.

The doctors saved me from some kind of illness when I was just a new-born, something to do with my breathing...and I can't help but feel anger at that because I cannot remember anything of that time and had I have died then, it would be like I never existed so before you spout that stupid, hackneyed "He gave us life!" talk, remember that not everyone wanted it and some see it s nothing more than a prison sentence.

I see life like this - You're in a deep dark sleep, no dreams (oh how I love it), nothing, you're mind is blank....and then someone comes and throws a bucket of ice cold water over your body.

If God came to me and said "Sean, I can erase your memory, put you in a state of nothingness for ever, like you never existed", I would say without reserve "Yes please, can you do it now?"

A lot of people seem to have a fear of nothingness and I can understand that in a way but for me it would be eternal bliss because I wouldn't feel anything.

...Sorry, wrong meeting!

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But why worship a god that does nothing to prevent things like what happened in Newton? He would be absolutely worthless.

Don't even bother with that question, you're going to get those two words that we've seen time and time again: FREE and WILL...in that order.

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So you don't care about innocent children?

how does that have anything to do with what i said?

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But why worship a god that does nothing to prevent things like what happened in Newton? He would be absolutely worthless.

No.

Let us assume god gave us free will, and in general will not interfere with that free will. For many reaosns this MIGHT be so. None the less, such a god can do many things. He can instruct us not to murder and help establish civil penalties for murder. He can offer hope of reuniting and eternal life between a parent and child. He can certainly take away a lot of the anger, pain and suffering felt by grieving humans and replace it wih understanding accpetance and love, which will make the remainder of that persons life nuch better physically and psychologically. Even such a god would be far from worthless.

But god MIGHT also help people in more specific ways. There were many survivors of the shooting. It would be interesting to ask how many of then exerperienced the direct hand of god in their survival; guiding them, calming them, helping them think quickly and rationally, to enhace their chances of survival. I know personally from major disasters that there are many such personal encounters and stories from survivors.

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Don't even bother with that question, you're going to get those two words that we've seen time and time again: FREE and WILL...in that order.

Well, in any logical/philosophical discussion of such a question that IS the rational answer. Any creator "god' can not create a self aware entity capable of learning, growth, and evolution, without allowing them free will. Or to look at it another way, free will is an inevitable consequence of self aware sapience, and evolves as a co dependent property of such awareness. It is via learning from free willed actions, and their consequences, that we learn, mature, evolve as beings, and grow.

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Well, in any logical/philosophical discussion of such a question that IS the rational answer. Any creator "god' can not create a self aware entity capable of learning, growth, and evolution, without allowing them free will. Or to look at it another way, free will is an inevitable consequence of self aware sapience, and evolves as a co dependent property of such awareness. It is via learning from free willed actions, and their consequences, that we learn, mature, evolve as beings, and grow.

Yes I know, I was just telling that dude not to bother with the question and saved him a five page essay on free will by one of the very passionate believers on here...

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I never asked for this life.

I don't know if there is some divine plan that has been set in motion that hangs over my life but if I could ask of God only one thing it would to have never been born in the first place to be non-existent and oblivious to everything. so just because you say "He gave us life" doesn't make your argument a winner because no one asked for it in the first place and a small number of people who've been snatched from the comfort of non-existence and put into this world would rather have not had such a thing happen an I am one of them.

You might find this depressing or it may offend your belief of life being sacred but I don't care what you think, that's as plain as I'll put it.

The doctors saved me from some kind of illness when I was just a new-born, something to do with my breathing...and I can't help but feel anger at that because I cannot remember anything of that time and had I have died then, it would be like I never existed so before you spout that stupid, hackneyed "He gave us life!" talk, remember that not everyone wanted it and some see it s nothing more than a prison sentence.

I see life like this - You're in a deep dark sleep, no dreams (oh how I love it), nothing, you're mind is blank....and then someone comes and throws a bucket of ice cold water over your body.

If God came to me and said "Sean, I can erase your memory, put you in a state of nothingness for ever, like you never existed", I would say without reserve "Yes please, can you do it now?"

A lot of people seem to have a fear of nothingness and I can understand that in a way but for me it would be eternal bliss because I wouldn't feel anything.

...Sorry, wrong meeting!

This is presumptuous of me, but you have a chioice about how you feel and how you think/respond to your life. I appreciate that, like allof us, you have been conditioned to think and respond in a certain way to life's fortunes, but you do not HAVE to chose to respond so.

At worst you have the ability to end your life, at best you have the abilty to make of it anything you choose, or at least spend your life aiming and striving to do this.

I have several times seen interviews with a man born with no arms and only one tiny vestigal leg. He now makes millions for his charitable institution, giving inspirational talks around the world, and spends his time helping others. He has tried many things, including surfing and refuses to allow his disabilty to define him. For a short time as a child he felt as you do, but then decided he did not want to live feeling like that. He changed his outlook 180 degrees, decided that he had been given life for a purpose, and that it was up to him to make the most of it.

Once you are dead you have NO further choices, and all freedom to choose, is taken from you. You no longer have the huge potential which resides in you as a human being.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Yes I know, I was just telling that dude not to bother with the question and saved him a five page essay on free will by one of the very passionate believers on here...

Oh believe me I know how they are.

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I never asked for this life.

I don't know if there is some divine plan that has been set in motion that hangs over my life but if I could ask of God only one thing it would to have never been born in the first place to be non-existent and oblivious to everything. so just because you say "He gave us life" doesn't make your argument a winner because no one asked for it in the first place and a small number of people who've been snatched from the comfort of non-existence and put into this world would rather have not had such a thing happen an I am one of them.

You might find this depressing or it may offend your belief of life being sacred but I don't care what you think, that's as plain as I'll put it.

The doctors saved me from some kind of illness when I was just a new-born, something to do with my breathing...and I can't help but feel anger at that because I cannot remember anything of that time and had I have died then, it would be like I never existed so before you spout that stupid, hackneyed "He gave us life!" talk, remember that not everyone wanted it and some see it s nothing more than a prison sentence.

I see life like this - You're in a deep dark sleep, no dreams (oh how I love it), nothing, you're mind is blank....and then someone comes and throws a bucket of ice cold water over your body.

If God came to me and said "Sean, I can erase your memory, put you in a state of nothingness for ever, like you never existed", I would say without reserve "Yes please, can you do it now?"

A lot of people seem to have a fear of nothingness and I can understand that in a way but for me it would be eternal bliss because I wouldn't feel anything.

...Sorry, wrong meeting!

Does an infant ask for it's parents to take care of it? Does it ask to be loved? Does it ask to be given life? No. But it has been given life. And it is in fact loved. That is something that the infant cannot avoid. So if it were to suddnly refuse it's mother's milk, move vigorously to get itself free, fall and break a limb, get beaten and broken by pets or animals or other infants, and not only not ask for but refuse it's parent's aide, who's fault is it that the infant despise's it's existance? You're life IS in fact a blessing, and you ARE in fact loved. You have simply, like myself and every other human that's ever existed, refused your parent's aide.

I'm sure you are undoubtedly aware of all the heartache and pain in the world. You are by no means the only one. I myself have had incredible misfortunes in my life, but it has taken me a long time to come to terms with the fact that I have never asked God to help me. I have never truly applied Christ's teachings to my life, I had never really done what he had said. It wasn't all my fault by far that my life turned out so horribly, it never is for anyone. But I know now that although I can't change other's, I can change myself.

I tell you the truth, there is only one way to save yourself from this misery, and that is to believe and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. I know very well this is most likely all in vain, and that this will all fall on deaf ears, but I must at least give it a try. I understand if you don't accept, in fact most people don't. However I do hope and pray you decide otherwise my friend. If you ever need anything, or need to talk, I'll be here. And so will Christ.

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This is presumptuous of me, but you have a chioice about how you feel and how you think/respond to your life. I appreciate tha tlike allof us oyu have been conditioned to think and respond in a certain wa yto lifes fortunes but you do not HVE to chose to respond so,

At worst you have the ability to end your life, at best you have the abilty to make of it anything you choose, or at least spend your life aiming and striving to do this.

I have several times seen interviews with a man born with no arms and only one tiny vestigal leg. He now makes millions for his charitable institution, giving inspirational talks around the world, and spends his time helping others. He has tried many things, including surfing and refuses to allow his disabilty to define him.

Once you are dead you have NO further choices, and all freedom to choose, is taken from you. You no longer have the huge potential which resides in you as a human being.

You can't really fight your thoughts and feelings and how I feel about life is there and I doubt any acts of charity or happy-thinking will change it because to me, nonexistence would be the best thing there is. Every time I think of those dreamless sleeps I feel happy because I know that for a little while, everything vanishes and ceases to be.

I've had a terrible few years in the past and the only thing that I loved back then apart from Snow Patrol was sleeping.

Of course that's just me and I'm sure you have your reasons for preferring life I mean, you're a guy who talks to God ffs, I'd love to see the stuff you've seen.

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Does an infant ask for it's parents to take care of it? Does it ask to be loved? Does it ask to be given life? No. But it has been given life. And it is in fact loved. That is something that the infant cannot avoid. So if it were to suddnly refuse it's mother's milk, move vigorously to get itself free, fall and break a limb, get beaten and broken by pets or animals or other infants, and not only not ask for but refuse it's parent's aide, who's fault is it that the infant despise's it's existance? You're life IS in fact a blessing, and you ARE in fact loved. You have simply, like myself and every other human that's ever existed, refused your parent's aide.

I'm sure you are undoubtedly aware of all the heartache and pain in the world. You are by no means the only one. I myself have had incredible misfortunes in my life, but it has taken me a long time to come to terms with the fact that I have never asked God to help me. I have never truly applied Christ's teachings to my life, I had never really done what he had said. It wasn't all my fault by far that my life turned out so horribly, it never is for anyone. But I know now that although I can't change other's, I can change myself.

I tell you the truth, there is only one way to save yourself from this misery, and that is to believe and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. I know very well this is most likely all in vain, and that this will all fall on deaf ears, but I must at least give it a try. I understand if you don't accept, in fact most people don't. However I do hope and pray you decide otherwise my friend. If you ever need anything, or need to talk, I'll be here. And so will Christ.

I've had my years with God, during a time in my life when I was in severe dread, sorrow and anguish and I can honestly say that I got myself out of that pit not God, no matter my prayers...at least that's how I see it, you might see it as Jesus which is only natural and if it keeps you happy, then by all means, stick by it; I wish I had something to anchor my life like you but y'know, **** happens.

I know that you being a follower of Jesus would advise me to turn to him...well I did before as said above and it worked out in the end...but no due to holy books or Gods, just me. I'll never be religious but I will say that for my skepticism, every now and again, I find myself almost believing in a creator in deistic terms (I love the universe and it's wonder and it baffles me) but 'll never follow religions or the life laws of other men/women because we're too small a planet and race and the universe is so large.

But it'd be nice if we were to all end up okay in the end.

Edited by Sean93

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I've had my years with God pal, during a time in my life when I was in severe dread, sorrow and anguish and I can honestly say that I got myself out of that pit not God, no matter my prayers...at least that's how I see it, you might see it as Jesus which is only natural and if it keeps you happy, then by all means, stick by it; I wish I had something to anchor my life like you but y'know, **** happens.

I

Well, good luck my friend. As I said, if you ever need to talk, I'm here. And I promise I won't beat ya over the head with the same line. ^_^

Best of luck.

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You can't really fight your thoughts and feelings and how I feel about life is there and I doubt any acts of charity or happy-thinking will change it because to me, nonexistence would be the best thing there is. Every time I think of those dreamless sleeps I feel happy because I know that for a little while, everything vanishes and ceases to be.

I've had a terrible few years in the past and the only thing that I loved back then apart from Snow Patrol was sleeping.

Of course that's just me and I'm sure you have your reasons for preferring life I mean, you're a guy who talks to God ffs, I'd love to see the stuff you've seen.

That is why i started by saying it was presumtuous of me.

But the truth is you can choose your thoughts and your intellectual/emotional responses. It is just a matter of self discipline and will power, knowing that you can, and perhaps studying a little about how to go about it.

I have no experience with constant lifelong pain or suffering, but i have endured a week of excruciating agony after a triple by pass and several years of blinding headaches and neck pains , and i KNOW that one can alter ones thoughts perceptions, and even the degree of pain felt, by mental discipline.

Whatever happens, I sincerely wish you well in life and i respect your right to chose whatever outcomes you decide for your life. I am just saying there ARE alternatives. On occasions, while in agony, i thought i would rather be dead at that time but i also knew that death is forever and life is open to change. I have been pain free for many years now, due to medical treatments that have improved and my mental self control over pain perception, but if I'd died then i would never have had those years of life and all the understanding tha twent with them. I would rather be alive, conscious, aware and capable of thinking , in a machine, than dead. Ive been dead (before i was born) and it didn't really grab me as an experience. Dead boring, pardon the pun.

Ps i am going to assume you have seen a doctor about depression, and are either getting chemical treatment for it, or undergoing a programme of cognitive therapy. If not, your symptoms and language, sound a lot like classic depression, which can be very effectively treated today. Depression can exist independent of the physical condition of your body, although that can contribute to you being depressed.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Why would anyone care who or what someone else 'worships'? If one has a problem with anothers beliefs, it is a reflection of the insecurity that one has with their own belief. An insecurity of belief leads one to belittle another's. When one is secure in their own belief those of others are irrelevant.

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