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blind pew

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I don't believe in god, but i lets just assume he is real... isn't god supposed to be omniscient? If god is omniscient, then he knows which choices a person will make during his life, so that means there is no free will, so then it must be gods fault. If there is free will, then god can not know the future, and then he isnt omniscient, and then he isnt god...

Perhaps you've read Epicurus?

epicurus_on-god-309-x-2071.png?w=460

Your post reminded me of this quote.

Edited by Sean93
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They aren't my Objective Moral Values, they are yours. Perhaps you got that part mixed up. Objective means they are absolute and handed down by God. I'm not referring to human moral values because as you have said and as I have said in previous posts, they can and will continue to change but Objective Moral Values never change and you should know that being a believer.

As for needing the fear of God to be good, thank you for saying that, it's all I needed to hear. I'll refer you to Einstein now.

if-people-are-good-only-because-they-fear-punishment-and-hope-for-reward-then-we-are-a-sorry-lot-indeed-albert-einstein.jpg?w=630

The problem with that is ignorance of what it means to "fear God"... like many other words over time, the meaning has been somewhat diluted and changed. It does not merely mean "to be afraid of". It means to be in awe of, to respect with great reverence...

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The problem with that is ignorance of what it means to "fear God"... like many other words over time, the meaning has been somewhat diluted and changed. It does not merely mean "to be afraid of". It means to be in awe of, to respect with great reverence...

Better to just say that then instead of using inappropriate words. But whatever, I never wrote the bible.

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You seem to be going a bit loopy now, are you all right?

No, I'm quite sane.... but since you need it explained, everybody who kills has a justification for it, it doesn't matter what it is, do not seperate believers from unbelievers on that fact. You put believers in a special box and label them, but killing was not done only by religious people, it has been done by every kind of person, believers, atheists, unbelievers, and everything inbetween. You say religion is particularly vile because of it, I'm saying, sure... just as much as the rest of humanity.

The numbers are so huge on both sides that they can't even be counted...

Edited by Jor-el

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Better to just say that then instead of using inappropriate words. But whatever, I never wrote the bible.

They can't change what is actually written, even when the meanings of the words themselves have morphed over time

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Perhaps you've read Epicurus?

epicurus_on-god-309-x-2071.png?w=460

Your post reminded me of this quote.

Finally, after 4 pages someone addresses the OP's question.

Indeed, whence evil?

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Finally, after 4 pages someone addresses the OP's question.

Indeed, whence evil?

It was addressed a number of times over the last 14 pages.... The source of evil... people.

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Interesting outlook, but on another thread, the basic conclusion is that "self" is actually the source of all evil on this world.

It is an error of epic proportions to believe that "The strong over the weak applies only to the 'animal kingdom'", it is the most basic and straight forward aspect of human nature, You find it everywhere, in our philosophies, in our politcs, in the very fabric of our society... we can see it every day for ourselves. If you want examples I could give you hundreds, Our nature speaks for itself.

Not in the context that you had placed it:

Jor-el, on 01 January 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

Actually that is incorrect, without God, you have no rights anyone needs to respect. I don't speak for myself here, it is basic logic, it is exactly how life is without God and how life used to be without God, and guess what, it will be what life will be like in the future, without God. It is the power of the strong over the weak, the natural order of things...

Then joc said:

The strong over the weak applies only to the 'animal kingdom'. Mankind is different. We exhibit an awareness of self. That self realizes itself mostly as Ego. As such, the 'gods' of prophets, ancient and dead, such as Moses, Abraham and Mohammed gave their 'god' Human Like qualities...anger, jealousy, etc.

God was invented by the mind of man and is not logical.

That being said...I have no qualms whatsoever with those who strongly believe in God...even those who do have qualms with those who do not.

Your context was that, the strong over the weak is the default without God. My assertion was that that default only applies to the animal kingdom. They (the animals) have no concept of right vs wrong...and so it is all strong vs. weak. My assertion is that with or without God, man has a concept of right vs wrong. Of course strong vs evil is everpresent, but you were saying that without God, that is the natural state of man; I disagree.

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Not in the context that you had placed it:

Then joc said:

Your context was that, the strong over the weak is the default without God. My assertion was that that default only applies to the animal kingdom. They (the animals) have no concept of right vs wrong...and so it is all strong vs. weak. My assertion is that with or without God, man has a concept of right vs wrong. Of course strong vs evil is everpresent, but you were saying that without God, that is the natural state of man; I disagree.

You can of course disagree.. please demonstrate that this is not the natural state of man.

Edited by Jor-el

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The problem with that is ignorance of what it means to "fear God"... like many other words over time, the meaning has been somewhat diluted and changed. It does not merely mean "to be afraid of". It means to be in awe of, to respect with great reverence...

It's a form of narcissistic supply/megalomania, the only thing it truly supports is "god's" ego, and that is the only thing it is meant for.

http://en.wikipedia....sorder#Theories

A quote:

"In cases where the narcissistic personality-disordered individual feels a lack of admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation, he or she may also manifest a desire to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply)"

Edited by HavocWing

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No, I'm quite sane.... but since you need it explained, everybody who kills has a justification for it, it doesn't matter what it is, do not seperate believers from unbelievers on that fact. You put believers in a special box and label them, but killing was not done only by religious people, it has been done by every kind of person, believers, atheists, unbelievers, and everything inbetween. You say religion is particularly vile because of it, I'm saying, sure... just as much as the rest of humanity.

The numbers are so huge on both sides that they can't even be counted...

I fully acknowledge that killing is done from both ends, I don't put believers into a special box in today's society but back in the day? Yes. non-believers/ Anti-religious people were ****ed if they were found to question god and the church back when - as Hitchens said - they were in power; so again, I am glad people had the balls to speak out against the totalitarianism and iron-fist oppression of the masses committed by the church and it's rulers. Sue Me.

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Worship me and I'll give ya a cookie! A divine cookie! :innocent:

What kind of cookie??? <_<:huh:

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Going to have to chocolate, chocolate chip cookie.

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This goes hand in hand with what I have been saying. Did Jesus ever say he was the son of God? No. In fact, he repeatedly refered to himself as the son of Man. But the church turns his words the way they want...to perpetuate the myth. Because, without the myth...their faith is dead. Again, I don't have any problem with anyone believing that...most do...I am just one who has to 'see' the truth in it all...and truth is logical.

Love that picture in your signature, gorgeous.

Anyway, Jesus aka Joshua bin Joseph never wrote anything down so, we'll never know FOR SURE what he referred to himself as... could have been Homey the Clown for all we know.

The bible is just a collection of testimonies from various people and all of these writings happened hundreds of years after Jesus's death. They were put together into one book, SELECTIVELY, by King Constantine and his henchmen.

And as we all know the dang thing has been translated, paraphrased & diluted so many freakin times that you have your pick of hundreds! The interpretation is what causes all the arguments and wars, factions don't agree, they split up, fight, kill each other.

I respect an individuals right to religious freedom, but I hate when I'm assaulted with biblical quotes that don't make sense to me... such as "Jesus is god in human form"...

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I'm confused by this.

You don't think I mean that coming from me do you?

Nope, but for anyone to say such a thing would need to be rather arrogant, full of discrimination and hate for atheists .. I read the line and thought WOW that's low ..

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Going to have to chocolate, chocolate chip cookie.

mmmm chocolate chip....

Me want cookie!!!!!!!!!!!!

post-109094-0-12371100-1357166044_thumb.

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Love that picture in your signature, gorgeous.

Anyway, Jesus aka Joshua bin Joseph never wrote anything down so, we'll never know FOR SURE what he referred to himself as... could have been Homey the Clown for all we know.

The bible is just a collection of testimonies from various people and all of these writings happened hundreds of years after Jesus's death. They were put together into one book, SELECTIVELY, by King Constantine and his henchmen.

And as we all know the dang thing has been translated, paraphrased & diluted so many freakin times that you have your pick of hundreds! The interpretation is what causes all the arguments and wars, factions don't agree, they split up, fight, kill each other.

I respect an individuals right to religious freedom, but I hate when I'm assaulted with biblical quotes that don't make sense to me... such as "Jesus is god in human form"...

Thanks for the sig kudos! :)

The problem with religion is that 'mainstream theology' has successfully synthesized two totally different sets of scriptures down to one verse. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish.

As I stated earlier, it is the BELIEF that is important to Religion. It used to be the teachings were of great value..but not today...the only lesson taught is BELIEVE or you are going to suffer eternity in Hell. It's absolute nonsense. But Humans are Humans and it is not my job to educate or change anyone's beliefs. If you want to logically work out in your own mind that the world is flat and 6000 years old, that's fine. If you want to fall on your knees and worship a Tuna Fish Sandwhich that is fine as well. The original poster aka OP of this thread asked:

Why would anybody worship a god that allows children to be molested and killed? If you want my worship you need to give something in return.

To which my latest, greatest answer is: People are strange...but if what they worship/believe suits them and harms no one else...let them be!

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Love that picture in your signature, gorgeous.

Anyway, Jesus aka Joshua bin Joseph never wrote anything down so, we'll never know FOR SURE what he referred to himself as... could have been Homey the Clown for all we know.

The bible is just a collection of testimonies from various people and all of these writings happened hundreds of years after Jesus's death. They were put together into one book, SELECTIVELY, by King Constantine and his henchmen.

And as we all know the dang thing has been translated, paraphrased & diluted so many freakin times that you have your pick of hundreds! The interpretation is what causes all the arguments and wars, factions don't agree, they split up, fight, kill each other.

I respect an individuals right to religious freedom, but I hate when I'm assaulted with biblical quotes that don't make sense to me... such as "Jesus is god in human form"...

Like any story, you have to understand the context to 'get" such quotes.

For many christ was "the word" the creative aspect of god in the beginning. Along with the holy spirit or energy force, and the "physical" or structural aspect of god the father; christ/ the word made up the trinity of the biblical god. For 30 years the word came down to earth, via mary who was inseminated by the holy spirit or energy of god,and became a son of man (Ie human) as well as a son of god conceived inmary by the insemination of gods holy spirit). He is only the "son of god" while on earth Otherwise (while not during that 30 years )he is an equal and indivisible, albeit separate, aspect of god in heaven.

He remained ,however, an integral part of the trinity even while in human form, which allowed him to perform miracles raise the dead heal, and access part of the power of the godhead. When he died on earth he returned to heaven as christ/the word, but then came back transformed as a human being, so that even his folowers at first did not recognise him.

Finally he went back to heaven a the ascension, promising to return a final time in his heavenly form. There is considerable argument that jesus./the word asos manifests as michael the arch angel, and revelation describes him fighting the last battle, sword in hand, on a white horse.

And so your quote describes the fact that jesus was in human form, but was always a god, from alpha to omega, beginning to end.

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Thanks for the sig kudos! :)

The problem with religion is that 'mainstream theology' has successfully synthesized two totally different sets of scriptures down to one verse. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish.

As I stated earlier, it is the BELIEF that is important to Religion. It used to be the teachings were of great value..but not today...the only lesson taught is BELIEVE or you are going to suffer eternity in Hell. It's absolute nonsense. But Humans are Humans and it is not my job to educate or change anyone's beliefs. If you want to logically work out in your own mind that the world is flat and 6000 years old, that's fine. If you want to fall on your knees and worship a Tuna Fish Sandwhich that is fine as well. The original poster aka OP of this thread asked:

Why would anybody worship a god that allows children to be molested and killed? If you want my worship you need to give something in return.

To which my latest, greatest answer is: People are strange...but if what they worship/believe suits them and harms no one else...let them be!

How much do you think such a job would pay??? :huh: And would you take the job if offered??? LOL

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How much do you think such a job would pay??? :huh: And would you take the job if offered??? LOL

I haven't really thought about that...perhaps I should. That would actually make me like a guru or somesuch wouldn't it? And guru's get paid handsomely do they not? Hmmm... B) ...we'll have to think on that one some mores.

Edited by joc

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I haven't really thought about that...perhaps I should. That would actually make me like a guru or somesuch wouldn't it? And guru's get paid handsomely do they not? Hmmm... B) ...we'll have to think on that one some mores.

Yes! They get paid handsomely but not always honestly...

And I suppose that would make you a guru of sorts...but be careful if you find yourself in such a position...I'm sure you are aware, with great power comes a great deal of e-mail or something to that effect. Also you will have to pass out chocolate chop cookies...

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Anyway, Jesus aka Joshua bin Joseph never wrote anything down so, we'll never know FOR SURE what he referred to himself as... could have been Homey the Clown for all we know.

True that Jesus himself never wrote anything down (at least, we don't have any evidence that he ever wrote any parchments). But that's not surprising since most of the people Jesus hung around with couldn't read. FYI, Jesus/Joshua is just a matter of whether you want to translate Yeshua into Greek (Jesus) or Hebrew (Joshua).

The bible is just a collection of testimonies from various people and all of these writings happened hundreds of years after Jesus's death.

Incorrect. The Bible is NOT just a collection of testimonies written hundreds of years after Jesus' death. First there's the Old Testament, written 400 years and more before Jesus. Then there are the writings of some of the early apostles (Paul being the most common). His writings appear as early as fifteen years after the death of Jesus. Then there are the gospels (perhaps it is to these that you referred to when you spoke of "the Bible") - the gospels included in the Bible were all written 40-90 years after Jesus' death, not even 100 years after Jesus.

Your claim that hundreds of years passed is just wrong. Though if you have evidence saying otherwise, I'd be happy to hear it. If you're interested in looking at it, THIS SITE is a good start.

They were put together into one book, SELECTIVELY, by King Constantine and his henchmen.

Emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea, and there was a selective process, but if you look at the history of it, the sinister overtones you suggest are not there.

And as we all know the dang thing has been translated, paraphrased & diluted so many freakin times that you have your pick of hundreds!

True we have hundreds of translations to choose from, but they all come from the same source material, the earliest Greek texts (for the New Testament) and the earliest Hebrew and Aramaic texts for the Old Testament. It's not a case of translating from one language into another into another into another into another. Most Christians don't care which translation is used, most translations say the same thing in slightly different words. There are some Christians who are KJV-only, and some of these believe that the KJV is the only authorised English translation, and this group represents a small but vocal minority. But they are not the norm, at least not nowadays.

The interpretation is what causes all the arguments and wars, factions don't agree, they split up, fight, kill each other.

And here I must disagree again. Religion is used as an excuse to cause wars in order to satisfy a greed for power, wealth, land, etc. Or it is used as an excuse to perpetuate racial hatred which also causes wars. Either way, the underlying cause is ethnicity or greed. If Religion didn't exist these people would just use other methods of perpetuating their hatred and violence. Edited by Paranoid Android

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(SNIP)

The site you used was one of a dozen I went to. I have yet to find a single historical source for the quote besides a satirical play by John Bale. Be so kind as to give us one if you can find it.

Ok here you go.. How about this document - The Almanac Of Evil. Chapter 16 This chronologically documents the evil and criminal acts of the Vatican for the past 2000 years.

Of association/membership to a criminal organisation: (1513 – 1521 CE) That the person known as Pope Leo X, also known as “De craticula Politiana”, the 63rd Pope according to the prophecy of St Malachy, was both a member and leader of an organisation known as “Christianity” first established and subsequently maintained for the sole purpose of organized criminal enterprise. That in his capacity of leader of this organized criminal enterprise did direct for numerous criminal acts to be undertaken including, but not limited to: murder, fraud, extortion, kidnapping, rape, incest and lowering of public morals.

med_forgery.jpg Of publishing false statements for the purpose of extortion (1513) That Pope Leo X granted to the Servite Chapel of St.Annunciata at Florence that all visiting it on Saturdays should obtain a thousand years of indulgences and as many quarantines, and double that amount on the feasts of Virgin, Christmas and Friday and Saturday of Holy Week.

med_ritual_blasphemy.jpg Of open heresy and contempt for church doctrine: (1513 – 1521) That Pope Leo X did show open contempt as to the fraudulent and corrupt nature of both the gospels and the Catholic church in his infamous quote: "How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us". That this quote was later included in the play by John Bale called The Pageant of the Popes.

med_murder.jpg Of murder: (1513 – 1521) That Pope Leo X did murder several Cardinals who did oppose his Papacy.

Source - http://one-faith-of-...l/evil_0160.htm

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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Yes! They get paid handsomely but not always honestly...

And I suppose that would make you a guru of sorts...but be careful if you find yourself in such a position...I'm sure you are aware, with great power comes a great deal of e-mail or something to that effect. Also you will have to pass out chocolate chop cookies...

The only email I would want would be informing me of payments to my paypal account. :D I would certainly pass out chocolate chip cookies...just seems like it would go with the job. And coffee...free coffee with every consultation.

Do I need a tent for that? I have a camping tent..but do I need a Mystical Tent? Bet I could find one cheap made in China.

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True that Jesus himself never wrote anything down (at least, we don't have any evidence that he ever wrote any parchments). But that's not surprising since most of the people Jesus hung around with couldn't read. FYI, Jesus/Joshua is just a matter of whether you want to translate Yeshua into Greek (Jesus) or Hebrew (Joshua).

Incorrect. The Bible is NOT just a collection of testimonies written hundreds of years after Jesus' death. First there's the Old Testament, written 400 years and more before Jesus. Then there are the writings of some of the early apostles (Paul being the most common). His writings appear as early as fifteen years after the death of Jesus. Then there are the gospels (perhaps it is to these that you referred to when you spoke of "the Bible") - the gospels included in the Bible were all written 40-90 years after Jesus' death, not even 100 years after Jesus.

Your claim that hundreds of years passed is just wrong. Though if you have evidence saying otherwise, I'd be happy to hear it. If you're interested in looking at it, THIS SITE is a good start.

Emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea, and there was a selective process, but if you look at the history of it, the sinister overtones you suggest are not there.

True we have hundreds of translations to choose from, but they all come from the same source material, the earliest Greek texts (for the New Testament) and the earliest Hebrew and Aramaic texts for the Old Testament. It's not a case of translating from one language into another into another into another into another. Most Christians don't care which translation is used, most translations say the same thing in slightly different words. There are some Christians who are KJV-only, and some of these believe that the KJV is the only authorised English translation, and this group represents a small but vocal minority. But they are not the norm, at least not nowadays.

And here I must disagree again. Religion is used as an excuse to cause wars in order to satisfy a greed for power, wealth, land, etc. Or it is used as an excuse to perpetuate racial hatred which also causes wars. Either way, the underlying cause is ethnicity or greed. If Religion didn't exist these people would just use other methods of perpetuating their hatred and violence.

You may be right about the timeline of the testimonies, I acquiesce only because I don't feel like doing research... :D

I do believe Jesus was a real, living human being back then, I also believe he was wise beyond the norm at the time, what I don't believe is that he was a supernatural being. I believe he was guided by some bigger consciousness and his teachings are profound... I don't believe the modern day version of what was supposed to be his teachings and how it has morphed into something unsavory at times.

You seem to know the bible well, what is that thing Jesus is quoted at saying about him not wanting his followers to worship him?

Regardless, like I said earlier in so many words, I don't care what someone's religion is unless they Proselytize and force it on me. Such is usually the case like this morning while picking up coffee before work when a sweet little old lady cornered me and wanted to talk about the coming of "the end of times" and gave me a lovely magazine called The Watchtower; seriously, that happened. Probably influenced my mood about the topic.

The only email I would want would be informing me of payments to my paypal account. :D I would certainly pass out chocolate chip cookies...just seems like it would go with the job. And coffee...free coffee with every consultation.

Do I need a tent for that? I have a camping tent..but do I need a Mystical Tent? Bet I could find one cheap made in China.

Well, of course you will need a magical tent...whatever are you thinking! You will also need a hat or turbin of some sort (to collect money in). And you must start the narcissistic, grandiose thinking straight-away!

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