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and then

Putin's Pride on Display

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/russian-parliament-approves-bill-banning-us-adoptions-of-russian-children/2012/12/26/4a422d6e-4fdb-11e2-835b-02f92c0daa43_story.html

I speak here as a dad of a wonderful young lady adopted from China a dozen years ago when she was six. She came into our lives and has blessed us immeasurably and we have done our best to return that favor. On any given day there are thousands of couples all over the US who are "in process" of making this dream come true. It is expensive, time consuming and once well underway not easily stopped. Putin seems on the verge of slamming the door in the face of not just new applicants for adoption of Russian ORPHANS....he is probably going to stop those already in process. In some cases these parents already have a photo and a name and so does the child who is being adopted - if they are older - this is as pointless as it is heartless. This man is a danger to the world. Such an ego in the position he holds is not a good thing. That he would resort to such childish, spiteful behavior is chilling. I wonder what is next? I suspect the Russian people need to take a very close look at the lessons the Syrians are learning. If they want to keep their freedoms they might soon have to try and arm themselves.

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Why so much hatred towards some people, who just want to feel how it is to be a parent? :unsure2:

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Yeah I read about that. Putin is just another typical man with power. Just like all men with power. They just want more power. It's sad to see this happen in our world.

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Putin is alot better than anything america has produced!

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Putin is alot better than anything america has produced!

Marry him if he wants you, but spare the rest of us of the idolatry.

It’s so cruel to stop already arranged adoptions. How can anyone do that to kids?

It’s mentally ill cruel to leave them orphaned after they were told they have families waiting for them.

I can only hope this won’t be done so abruptly and cruelly.

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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Putin is alot better than anything america has produced!

Your politics are noted - your choice. But can you tell me how his choice makes this world better in one single way? Absolutely no harm comes from these adoptions. There was a single case of an idiot slipping through the cracks and adopting. She literally put the young boy on a flight to Moscow alone. In my opinion she should have been arrested and charged with neglect and endangerment. But to destroy (and it will) so many lives on both sides just for political points is almost evil IMO.
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This is a political move for Putin he could care less about the kids. They are just another pawn in this chess game we call politics.

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This is kind of like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

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It is because of Magnitsky affair. USA seems to think it has right to meddle in Russia's internal affairs. Magnitsky was Russian citizen, and no matter what rights and wrongs about this affair, it is not for US to meddle and make anti Russian laws.

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It is because of Magnitsky affair. USA seems to think it has right to meddle in Russia's internal affairs. Magnitsky was Russian citizen, and no matter what rights and wrongs about this affair, it is not for US to meddle and make anti Russian laws.

Excuse me if I’m being stupid here, but are we talking about this Magnitsky:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Magnitsky

What orphans have to do with this?

They barred some of your officials, you bar theirs. Kids are not officials. I'm all for spite, but it's too cruel to spite someone over backs of children.

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There has been opposition from childrens rights groups about this law, but some people do not see further than reports of murders and other deaths of Russian children in USA. There have been about 20 deaths, I think. It is unlikely this law will remain in force for long, though that is only my opinion. It is more like making a tap that can be turned on or off when situation requires. I myself think this is cynical, there are other ways of dealing with Magnitsky affair than involving innocent children.....

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri
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20?! What number of

There has been opposition from childrens rights groups about this law, but some people do not see further than reports of murders and other deaths of Russian children in USA. There have been about 20 deaths, I think. It is unlikely this law will remain in force for long, though that is only my opinion. It is more like making a tap that can be turned on or off when situation requires. I myself think this is cynical, there are other ways of dealing with Magnitsky affair than involving innocent children.....

:nw:

Now, 20 deaths... Wikipedia says about 60,000 Russian children have been adopted in US since 1992, so we could see that as one death among 3,000 a year. Though every death, especially in early age, is tragedy, this doesn’t seem alarming.

From what I’ve understood, children put for adoption often come from problematic parents, which sometimes leave permanent trace in these kids' health. I’m not trying to make excuses up, I’m trying to see if statistics speaks of routine neglect... looks like it doesn’t.

Edited by Helen of Annoy

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20?! What number of

:nw:

Now, 20 deaths... Wikipedia says about 60,000 Russian children have been adopted in US since 1992, so we could see that as one death among 3,000 a year. Though every death, especially in early age, is tragedy, this doesn’t seem alarming.

From what I’ve understood, children put for adoption often come from problematic parents, which sometimes leave permanent trace in these kids' health. I’m not trying to make excuses up, I’m trying to see if statistics speaks of routine neglect... looks like it doesn’t.

It is not only the deaths and bad treatment, it is also the renaming of many of these children, and not only family name, which is to be expected of course. Some of these children, I do not know how many, are given new names, for instance, little Vladik becomes Justin, or Masha becomes Cindy or some other such barbarity.....

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It is not only the deaths and bad treatment, it is also the renaming of many of these children, and not only family name, which is to be expected of course. Some of these children, I do not know how many, are given new names, for instance, little Vladik becomes Justin, or Masha becomes Cindy or some other such barbarity.....

Barbarity... :lol:

It’s easier that way. Many people who emigrated to US as adults changed their names to make paperwork easier. If it takes 17 minutes to explain how the hell you spell it and it still gets spelled wrongly...

Don’t we – meaning Slavic people – do the same, and anyone else for that matter?

For instance, there’s a girl who married a Croat and they will live in Croatia. So what? So she had many names. Too many for our forms. Each was a beautiful name, but you can put only 2 reasonably long first and up to 2 reasonably long surnames in most of our standard forms.

Then foreigners choose names they will officially use.

Back on topic.

Masha is currently lost for Russia, even if her name wasn’t changed. She might feel compelled to search her ancestry one day, and might like it, and that’s the only way she might be back. Physically or spiritually.

And one more thing I’ve noticed: some people who didn’t know about their roots felt drawn to their origins. It’s a little unexplained... no, it’s totally unexplained.

In short, I understand your point and disapproval of de-identification of adopted children, but to have foreign family is immensely better than to have no family.

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Perhaps more a problem for Poles because westerners just cannot pronounce names like Lodz correctly, let alone the easy names like Dzierzawska-Zaczkiewicz or Szwagrzyk :) Russian names easily transliterate into English. Perhaps some Americans just cannot like to hear or see Russian names......

Do you say that there is no posibilty on American documents of writing patronymic?

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No, I was just ranting about our, Croatian, limited number of signs in most of forms.

I’m quite sure Americans have no problem with patronymics or numerous names in general.

It was a discovery for me that patronymic is seen as second first name, not prequel of surname... if that makes any sense :lol:

Or that’s Bulgarians only? They attach the patronymic as the last first name, then comes the surname.

Anyway, I don’t think it's hostility that makes people change kids' names, or lack of tolerance. They wouldn't adopt that child if they minded origins that much. It's not fear of not fitting in, in a country where people name their kids very creatively, Alien Sunset or Egzeema included. I think it’s subconscious desire of parents to give their children new destiny with new name.

Call me crazy, I won’t mind.

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No, I was just ranting about our, Croatian, limited number of signs in most of forms.

I’m quite sure Americans have no problem with patronymics or numerous names in general.

It was a discovery for me that patronymic is seen as second first name, not prequel of surname... if that makes any sense :lol:

Or that’s Bulgarians only? They attach the patronymic as the last first name, then comes the surname.

Anyway, I don’t think it's hostility that makes people change kids' names, or lack of tolerance. They wouldn't adopt that child if they minded origins that much. It's not fear of not fitting in, in a country where people name their kids very creatively, Alien Sunset or Egzeema included. I think it’s subconscious desire of parents to give their children new destiny with new name.

Call me crazy, I won’t mind.

When my wife and I adopted our daughter from China we were advised to keep part of her name in Mandarin and we did so. She's proud of her ties to her culture of origin and we are happy it is so. Plus an "X" makes for a cool middle initial in English :clap:
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It was a discovery for me that patronymic is seen as second first name, not prequel of surname... if that makes any sense :lol: Or that’s Bulgarians only? They attach the patronymic as the last first name, then comes the surname.

I'm not expert on history of names. Anyway, I think that all Slavs and Germanic peoples had patronymic in some form. I think originally it was all similar to what is in Iceland still. For instance, if your given name is Sigurd and your father's name is Olaf, then your full name is Sigurd Olafson, and if you name your son Erik, then he will be Erik Sigurdson, and it is similar for daughter who will be Sigurdsdottir. There is no family name. In Russian it was only given name and patronymic, then at some time in distant past family names were invented, same as all over Europe, often based on what you did or some characteristic. In Russia, Ukraine and Belarus the patronymic has remained. Perhaps your given name and patronymic are more your name than the family name, it is why except with family and friends, people are addressed by given name and patronymic, for instance Vladislav Alexandrovich. You see in other Slav countries the patronymic has become the family name, for instance Milosevic or Mikhailovic and there are many other example you will be familiar with, they are all descended from patronymics in the past.

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri

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Global Demography. You guys should read up on it, especially Russia.

Russia is experiencing a dying population due to a negative birth to death rate ratio. To maintain a stagnant population each couple needs to give birth to 2.1 children. It is the average number of children that would be born to a woman over her lifetime. It's called total fertility rate (TFR). Russia's TFR was 1.61 in 2011 and declining. Russia's population is shrinking.

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Global Demography. You guys should read up on it, especially Russia.

Russia is experiencing a dying population due to a negative birth to death rate ratio. To maintain a stagnant population each couple needs to give birth to 2.1 children. It is the average number of children that would be born to a woman over her lifetime. It's called total fertility rate (TFR). Russia's TFR was 1.61 in 2011 and declining. Russia's population is shrinking.

60,000 children over the course of 20 years have no visible effect on estimated 143,300,000 population.

Russian authorities probably wouldn’t allow adopting their citizens out of the country if they thought it damages their TFR, or they cared about TFR, or they wanted all orphaned (or abandoned) babies in state’s care.

And even if they suddenly decided they won’t allow average 3,000 children a year leaving the country (crocodile drug and unique driving style probably eat away more young people than that), still they shouldn’t have stopped already arranged adoptions, for adopted children’s sake.

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