Are humans special?

[Mr Walker]

Or at least the ability to fools ourselves into believing it.

Perhaps the ability to fool ourselves into believing we have a soul is the evidence that we do have one. Most of the psychological abilities of humans such as the ability to delude onesself are associated with other abilities which give all sapient self aware beings a soul. Eg one doesnt need to delude ones self if one is not in internal conflict, or cannot recognise the differnce between destructive and creative thoughts and actions.

[Rlyeh]

Perhaps the ability to fool ourselves into believing we have a soul is the evidence that we do have one. Most of the psychological abilities of humans such as the ability to delude onesself are associated with other abilities which give all sapient self aware beings a soul. Eg one doesnt need to delude ones self if one is not in internal conflict, or cannot recognise the differnce between destructive and creative thoughts and actions.

And maybe Heaven's Gate really did ride on a magical space ship.

Everything credited to the soul can be found in the brain.

[Grandpa Greenman]

We've all been dancing around the basic issue: does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have!

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Measure_Of_A_Man_(episode)

The best of my morality I learned from Star Trek.

[+Liquid Gardens]

Perhaps the ability to fool ourselves into believing we have a soul is the evidence that we do have one.

Perhaps the ability to fool ourselves into believing we have psychic powers, ESP, telekinesis, can speak with the dead is also evidence that we do have those abilities by the same token?

[J. K.]

I will admit to have skimmed through most of this, so if this has already been said, I apologize.

A question was raised about being created in God's image:

And God said , Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Genesis 1:26

Exactly what is meant by "in our image, after our likeness" is not clear. I used to think that part of the image is man's ability to create, as one other post stated. However, after seeing examples of animals painting (an elephant, a seal, and a blind dog!), and seeing a spider build a mock replica of itself as a decoy, I begin to wonder about that part. The only thing that humans have that sets us apart from all other biologicals is our spirit: the supernatural, eternal part of us that communicates with God.

As for being special, this verse describes our place in the hiearchy:

4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands;thou hast put all things under his feet: (Psalm 8:4-6)

Of course, this is all predicated on the belief of God. I am aware that it is meaningless for those who prefer other views of our existence.

Edited January 16, 2013 by J. K.

[Abramelin]

We have souls, animals do not.

What's a soul exactly? And why do you think animals don't have such a thing?

But one thing is true, though

We have soles under our shoes, animals don't wear shoes.

[Sean93]

This is still going...? Cool.

By now I'll take a guess and say that the discussion is being kept alive by about two or three individulas throwing out rebuttals to each other and who want the last word.

More to the point: Human speciality is only so to the person concerned and how much value is placed on it is subjective and has no correct answer, at least not yet.

Tomayto - Tomato.

[+joc]

Perhaps the ability to fool ourselves into believing we have a soul is the evidence that we do have one. Most of the psychological abilities of humans such as the ability to delude onesself are associated with other abilities which give all sapient self aware beings a soul. Eg one doesnt need to delude ones self if one is not in internal conflict, or cannot recognise the differnce between destructive and creative thoughts and actions.

Is being Self Aware the same thing as having a Soul? Is that the definition?

[Mr Walker]

And maybe Heaven's Gate really did ride on a magical space ship.

Everything credited to the soul can be found in the brain.

As to the second; absolutely. The soul is a very real construct of human self aware sapience. It resides in our awareness and hence in our brain. I never said it was immortal, only real. Any entity with human level sapience and self awareness would have a soul, which could be "grown", diminished, and even destroyed, while the entity is alive.

[Mr Walker]

Is being Self Aware the same thing as having a Soul? Is that the definition?

No. Having a soul is a product of a certain level of self awareness, like imagination. It is not the self awreness itself.

A self aware being knows harmful from creative thoughts and deeds. It knows that it knows this. it has the capacity for guilt desire emapthy love and hate it knows it can chose its responses and actions It knows that its choices have consequences for self and for others and thus that it has a great respsonsibilty for every thougth choice and act it takes.

Its soul will grow, develop,or diminish, and perhaps die, based on the choices it makes in life. A soul probably begins organically at conception and mentally sometime before birth. it continues to grow and evolve until a human dies or is brain damaged beyond the point of recovery eg through trauma or alzheimers Transfer the persons mind to another host and the soul is trnasferred with it. Because the soul is both the immediate mental process of a mind and also the cumulative mental history memory etc of the mind.

Remove all memory from a person, and you have almost completely removed their soul, but it will grow again, perhaps taking a completely differnt path/direction.

[Mr Walker]

Perhaps the ability to fool ourselves into believing we have psychic powers, ESP, telekinesis, can speak with the dead is also evidence that we do have those abilities by the same token?

Many of those (and other ) abilities have clear incontrovertible evidences to support them. Yes there are artefacts of our mind and our psychology which predispose us towards some of these beliefs. But in other cases they are real and clear.

CAn you explain a shot glass hovering/suspended in the air for long enough for the original 3 witnesses, who were moving furniture and found it behind a sofa, to call others into the room and observe it, before it fell half a metre to the floor. If you believe this happened and it was not set up by the observers, then it is inexplicable without resorting to "paranormal" explanations. Of course if you dont believe it happened, then there is no need to explain it.

Ive not just talked to my father who died a few years back but gone back in time and spent time with him in the years before I was born in the late 30s and nineteen forties.This could be written off as lucid dreaming except for a few facts. I went for a ride on hs motorbike and we discussed it. THEN I talked to my mother and checked out the internet. indeed it was a BSA bantam that dad owned and rode, and this make and model coincided precisely with the intenet history of production of this bike.

I also observed the country dances and halls where dad went dancing and courted my mother. Again my mother, (ninety this year but fit and alert) and research, confirmed their descriptions. locations. and the bands, music, dances, clothes, conversations, refreshments etc involved

I do this for fun, as a mental challenge and discipline, and to get to know my dad better as a young man, but it is fascinating stuff.

[+joc]

No. Having a soul is a product of a certain level of self awareness, like imagination. It is not the self awreness itself.

A self aware being knows harmful from creative thoughts and deeds. It knows that it knows this. it has the capacity for guilt desire emapthy love and hate it knows it can chose its responses and actions It knows that its choices have consequences for self and for others and thus that it has a great respsonsibilty for every thougth choice and act it takes.

Its soul will grow, develop,or diminish, and perhaps die, based on the choices it makes in life. A soul probably begins organically at conception and mentally sometime before birth. it continues to grow and evolve until a human dies or is brain damaged beyond the point of recovery eg through trauma or alzheimers Transfer the persons mind to another host and the soul is trnasferred with it. Because the soul is both the immediate mental process of a mind and also the cumulative mental history memory etc of the mind.

Remove all memory from a person, and you have almost completely removed their soul, but it will grow again, perhaps taking a completely differnt path/direction.

So then, what you are saying is that only beings who are Self Aware can have a soul. That unless you are Self Aware, that Awareness cannot be transferred to another host upon death? But if Self Awareness is not the soul, then it is a function of the brain is it not? And what you are saying is that if a brain (i.e. animal brain) doesn't function to the point of Self Awareness, then the 'soul' is not produced by that brain? In other words, (sorry, I'm just trying to get my head around this) the soul is the by-product of the human brain...and unless a brain is functioning at that level, then....I'm sorry, I just don't get how the brain creates the soul.

[J. K.]

No. Having a soul is a product of a certain level of self awareness, like imagination. It is not the self awreness itself.

...

Remove all memory from a person, and you have almost completely removed their soul, but it will grow again, perhaps taking a completely differnt path/direction.

Mr. Walker, how are you defining "soul"?

1. The personality of an individual (mind, will, emotions)

2. The spiritual component of a person which communicates with God.

3. The combination of the previous two.

4. Or .... ?

[Astral Hillbilly]

What makes us greater than other life on this planet? Our intelligence, the way we kill and pollute or our ability to cover it up.

The fact that we're created in Gods image. No other lifeform on Earth can say the same.

[Mr Walker]

So then, what you are saying is that only beings who are Self Aware can have a soul. That unless you are Self Aware, that Awareness cannot be transferred to another host upon death? But if Self Awareness is not the soul, then it is a function of the brain is it not? And what you are saying is that if a brain (i.e. animal brain) doesn't function to the point of Self Awareness, then the 'soul' is not produced by that brain? In other words, (sorry, I'm just trying to get my head around this) the soul is the by-product of the human brain...and unless a brain is functioning at that level, then....I'm sorry, I just don't get how the brain creates the soul.

How does your brain create "you"?

Once you undestand that, it i easy to see how the brain creates the soul. The soul is the most wonderful and unique thing about human beings, but it is not mystical or metaphysical. It is a real function of our mind, and hence of our brain.

It is technically feasible, although not yet quite possible, for a human consciousness to be stored and transferred. and replicated many times. If this is done the soul transfers with the conscousness, even if the first organic host of that consciousness dies, and one person's soul may be reproduced into many individaul souls. From that point on, however, each soul will evolve as each person/host lives and learns via different life experiences. One such soul may grow and mature, another may diminish, depending on how the person lives and thinks. In biblical terms; one may be saved one may be damned In humanis tterms one may be a good person the other a destructive person.

The bible says we are judged on our thoughts as well as our deeds, and modern psychology and neurology shows how our thoughts burn paths in our brain which also tend to lead us to certain behaviours, for good or bad.

"The thought is father of the deed."

Control and modify your thoughts and you not only control and modify your behaviour, you alter your brain function and modify your soul. And basically yes, only human level self awaenes is evovled enough to know the things which create a soul in us. But animals and even artificial intellligences, which reach a similar stage of self awareness will inevitably also possess a soul, and face the same dilemmas/soul searching, each of us faces.

[Mr Walker]

Mr. Walker, how are you defining "soul"?

1. The personality of an individual (mind, will, emotions)

2. The spiritual component of a person which communicates with God.

3. The combination of the previous two.

4. Or .... ?

See my other posts, but basically the soul is a construct of our level of self awareness. It comes from abilities like knowing what actions will hurt others and what will help them. In knowing, we can chose our thoughts and our actions and thus the consequences of them.

We understand precisely how what we do will afect us, and other people, and the environment. This creates conflicts in us between primitive desires and logical thinking

. Going back a step these abilities stem from earlier awarenesses such as the difference betwen life and death, the permanance of death, the nature of linear time, the knowledge that we can delay and enhance gratification and basic needs for a time.

Going forward in evolutionary terms it involves intellectual and emotional feedback and an understanding that our mind creates almost everything we are. How we feel etc. Thus because we can understand and control our mind, and our actions, we have duties responsibilites etc These include just not acting in fear, anger, or from jealousy envy spite etc. but actually trying not to feel fear anger, jealousy, envy, spite etc. They are all emotions we can chose, or not, and can control by using our mind.

Ps the qualities of our mind which give us self awarenes also allow us to both recognise the presence of god (like we recognise any physical thing) and also to analyse catalogue describe and comunicate this information to others and also to create constructs of a "philosophical " or "theological" nature about the existence and form of god. (Like we create imaginative constructs about all sorts of things) and to communicate the concetual symbolic form of the gods we create to other peoples minds where they come alive or become a part of the new mind, because all human minds are basically the same. If one human can understnad the concept of god then we all can. If one human can see god then we all can.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Mr Walker

[+Liquid Gardens]

Hi Mr Walker,

Many of those (and other ) abilities have clear incontrovertible evidences to support them. Yes there are artefacts of our mind and our psychology which predispose us towards some of these beliefs. But in other cases they are real and clear.

I'll just put this as honestly as I can, I don't believe you are using the word 'incontrovertible' correctly; there are few things that are as disputed as psychic abilities, telekinesis, and speaking with the dead. I was mainly responding to your argument structure that I don't know that I think is valid: being fooled about the existence of 'x' may be evidence that 'x' actually exists. You seem very sure that these all actually do exist, so I'm curious as to why you think this fact has eluded so many people? Hordes of scientists would be very interested in this good evidence, this is Nobel Prize level stuff if someone was to actually discover any of these purported phenomena were real.

CAn you explain a shot glass hovering/suspended in the air for long enough for the original 3 witnesses, who were moving furniture and found it behind a sofa, to call others into the room and observe it, before it fell half a metre to the floor. If you believe this happened and it was not set up by the observers, then it is inexplicable without resorting to "paranormal" explanations. Of course if you dont believe it happened, then there is no need to explain it.

No I can't explain a hovering shot glass, but you missed a step; why on earth should I believe that actually occurred? You don't believe every claim that anyone makes do you? Of course I don't believe it happened, isn't that the rational response to someone on the internet just claiming something miraculous occurred? I certainly don't know that this is inexplicable without resorting to the paranormal. I do know that people are mistaken all the time, and more importantly that paranormal explanations have been offered for countless phenomena in the past and, at least with regards to things we can actually verify, have lost every time.

As far as your father, that seems a little too personal for me to criticize, although I think you probably know my opinion on the idea that you are actually viewing the past. I'll definitely say though that I'm honestly happy that you have found an additional way regardless to connect with your father and feel closer to him, that's very cool.

[Sean93]

Okay, if psychic abilities are real, why haven't they been demonstrated? Why aren't we all aware of them? Surely if there was any shred of evidence that they existed, we would have no reason to doubt.

All those people who go around claiming like kids that they can levitate objects or read minds are cringe worthy, even worse when it's adults who claim such idiocy and have nothing to show for it other than hackneyed, lame and convoluted excuses full of conflated hogwash.

Please, show me the proof; if it's real and people can do it then all I require is a simple demonstration and I'm sure many others would like that too. Is that too much to ask of you psychics and seers? Can you drop the bull**** and stop being so cryptic about it? Make me believe. Do a video, a public demonstration; get tested by physicists...anything!

Edited January 18, 2013 by Sean93

[Sean93]

The fact that we're created in Gods image. No other lifeform on Earth can say the same.

And I envy them...

What is this fact based off by the way?

[Mr Walker]

Hi Mr Walker,

I'll just put this as honestly as I can, I don't believe you are using the word 'incontrovertible' correctly; there are few things that are as disputed as psychic abilities, telekinesis, and speaking with the dead. I was mainly responding to your argument structure that I don't know that I think is valid: being fooled about the existence of 'x' may be evidence that 'x' actually exists. You seem very sure that these all actually do exist, so I'm curious as to why you think this fact has eluded so many people? Hordes of scientists would be very interested in this good evidence, this is Nobel Prize level stuff if someone was to actually discover any of these purported phenomena were real.

No I can't explain a hovering shot glass, but you missed a step; why on earth should I believe that actually occurred? You don't believe every claim that anyone makes do you? Of course I don't believe it happened, isn't that the rational response to someone on the internet just claiming something miraculous occurred? I certainly don't know that this is inexplicable without resorting to the paranormal. I do know that people are mistaken all the time, and more importantly that paranormal explanations have been offered for countless phenomena in the past and, at least with regards to things we can actually verify, have lost every time.

As far as your father, that seems a little too personal for me to criticize, although I think you probably know my opinion on the idea that you are actually viewing the past. I'll definitely say though that I'm honestly happy that you have found an additional way regardless to connect with your father and feel closer to him, that's very cool.

I KNOW many paranormal and supernatural things have indpendent reality because of nearly 60 years of ongoing daily personal experience with them.

Transferrable proofs are harder, but anyone there at the time of an event will also know it is real. Thus these things do not always happen just in a person's mind or perception. And i test everything in lif eusing the same evidences and realities, in part BECAUSE i have lived the life i have. The only other rational explanation is ongoing which could explain some of the events if not the advice and protection i get, is everyday coincidence, and that is so statisticaly improbable as to be impossible. Incontrovertible evidences are the same evidences we use all the time ot establish the validity /indpendent reality of something Lots of scientists know they are real also but because they are not easily amenable to laboratory experimentaion it is hard to establish scientific proofs. ANd most scientists never bother to try.

As i said if you dont believe the story of the shot glass then that is your choice. I am more open to belief because of myown experiences. But also i trusted the witneses, my neice and great neices/nephew aged from 40 to older teenagers, and the circumstances were so mundane and prosaic as to be believable. Eg all sober, middle of the day shifting house, and another 3 independent witness who also saw the glass suspended in the air. "Poltergeist activity" is, by the way, the most common and documented example of the paranormal. MAny reputable scientists accept its existence, even if they dont understand the science behind it.

ANd i understand your reluctance to comment on my father, but it goes further than that. I am a history teacher and amateur historian. I use travel to the past to visit things like my local hospital in the last century. I observe and make notes, talk to doctors nurses of the time etc., then research to find how accurate my observations are. I also travel around the world using obe and then use the internet to confirm details. I have been doing this since the 1950s, but the internet makes confirmation much easier as long as one is not tempted to cheat.

[Mr Walker]

Okay, if psychic abilities are real, why haven't they been demonstrated? Why aren't we all aware of them? Surely if there was any shred of evidence that they existed, we would have no reason to doubt.

All those people who go around claiming like kids that they can levitate objects or read minds are cringe worthy, even worse when it's adults who claim such idiocy and have nothing to show for it other than hackneyed, lame and convoluted excuses full of conflated hogwash.

Please, show me the proof; if it's real and people can do it then all I require is a simple demonstration and I'm sure many others would like that too. Is that too much to ask of you psychics and seers? Can you drop the bull**** and stop being so cryptic about it? Make me believe. Do a video, a public demonstration; get tested by physicists...anything!

Or say inmy case talk to the people who live with me and all around me, who are students in my classes at school, work with me and know me. Ask them about the proofs of the "strange" things i regularly do.

It is not my job to make anyone believe anything. Thats what belief is. A choice. I tend not to believe in physical powers like energy balls and telekinesis, because of the energy levels required to move matter or transform it, but sceintists can already remotley read minds so tha tis more believable. Also we can already remotely move/operate machinery using only thought as long as it is augmented by a powered machine on the other end of the thought

[Sean93]

Or say inmy case talk to the people who live with me and all around me, who are students in my classes at school, work with me and know me. Ask them about the proofs of the "strange" things i regularly do.

It is not my job to make anyone believe anything. Thats what belief is. A choice. I tend not to believe in physical powers like energy balls and telekinesis, because of the energy levels required to move matter or transform it, but sceintists can already remotley read minds so tha tis more believable. Also we can already remotely move/operate machinery using only thought as long as it is augmented by a powered machine on the other end of the thought

So it's not your job to prove your claims but your friends and student's? I'll say, that sounds a lot like something a god would do...you don't have a god complex do you?

The brain is also responsible movement of your limbs and muscles too but there's nothing supernatural about me walking or using my fingers to type this message, the same applies to scientific apparati.

I understand you don't need to prove anything to anyone but considering you have ancillary abilities that most humans do not, don't you think it would benefit the rest of mankind in that they would know that there is much more to life than we know? you would be conduit of sorts for bringing humans closer to the truth and making the world a better place, why would god complain about that, it's what he wants right? I'd love to believe in a greater force so long as said belief was backed up by rational evidence; that would be knowledge and true.

[shadowlark]

I KNOW many paranormal and supernatural things have indpendent reality because of nearly 60 years of ongoing daily personal experience with them.

I could just as easily say I KNOW my pets love me and each other because of over 30 years of ongoing daily interaction with animals.

[NiteMarcher]

Okay, if psychic abilities are real, why haven't they been demonstrated? Why aren't we all aware of them? Surely if there was any shred of evidence that they existed, we would have no reason to doubt.

Please, show me the proof; if it's real and people can do it then all I require is a simple demonstration and I'm sure many others would like that too. Is that too much to ask of you psychics and seers? Can you drop the bull**** and stop being so cryptic about it? Make me believe. Do a video, a public demonstration; get tested by physicists...anything!

Wanting proof and evidence is not a good enough "cause" for a reading, because most are not on this site to showboat their gifts, but to share. Why don't you head into the forums where some are offering readings...you may get an answer or you may not. Better yet, look in the area where you reside and go take the time to hunt one down, pay them and then come back here and tell us what happened. Good Luck!

[Mr Walker]

So it's not your job to prove your claims but your friends and student's? I'll say, that sounds a lot like something a god would do...you don't have a god complex do you?

The brain is also responsible movement of your limbs and muscles too but there's nothing supernatural about me walking or using my fingers to type this message, the same applies to scientific apparati.

I understand you don't need to prove anything to anyone but considering you have ancillary abilities that most humans do not, don't you think it would benefit the rest of mankind in that they would know that there is much more to life than we know? you would be conduit of sorts for bringing humans closer to the truth and making the world a better place, why would god complain about that, it's what he wants right? I'd love to believe in a greater force so long as said belief was backed up by rational evidence; that would be knowledge and true.

Of course i have a god complex Doesnt everyone? My point is that witnessed physical events are not imagined ones. If an event has twenty or more witnesses, as many of mine do because i am in front of that many teenagers for most of the day, then the event is obviously physical, real and not occuring in my mind.

To take an outrageous example; suppose i levitated up to the ceiling in front of a class of 25 people and unscrewed an electric light bulb, then descended withoit and gave it to the class genius., Now even if i could never do that in a controlled laboratory experiment, and even if i didnt know and couldnt explain HOW i did it, it was still real and physical, because 25 individual sets of eyes and minds saw it happen, and recorded it happening in their memories.. I and they would KNOW it was possible and tha tit happened,.

Everything i do is natural. All supernatural and paranormal things are natural. We just dont understand the way they are integrated in to the natural order of things as yet. I dont know how i read minds etc but it is just as natural as using a machine to do so. The brain IS an organic machine and can probably do anything a man made machine is devised to do in emulating the brain. So if we can build a machine that reads a persons brain, our own brain can probably already do that naturally. Our body translates thoughts into actions in our body Our machines can extend this to remote activation and control. Why then shouldnt our mind and body be able to do this quite naturally?

i do all the things you mention to help peole now. And anyone who listens can learn. I am not special. These abilities are part of being human But YOU have to access them Thats just the way it works.

I DO make the world a better place. Hundreds of people, especially children, are alive now because of me (and my wife) For twenty years we have fed directly over a hundred young children (different ones over time) in the devloping countries and educated a number of others. Over 40 years we have donated over half a million dollars to many aid organisations and individual peole in the developing world. Thousands are better off, many have work, education, and better health.

We supply water, sanitation, education, crop starters, training for women who want to start a business. We also give several thousands for animal welfare each year, and write to govts and politicians on many issues. We live a sustainable life and have a low ecological footprint . We care for many young disturbed and abandoned children in our home and are now into our second generation with some of these kids.

I have taught thousands of children/teenagers, and many of them come up to me, as adults and tell me how i changed their lives around. I have never had an adult whom I taught as a child come up to me with anything but respect or gratitude for my teaching, and today I am teaching the children of children I taught 20-30 years ago. A few more years and it will be the grand children.

You are right. Evidence and rational thought provides knowledge. I do not believe in anything, but nor do i disbelieve in anything. What i do not know, I suspend opinion on .

If i tell you you can do something, that wont help you do it, but if you believe in it yourself you can probably do it, and so personal belief/ knowledge/realisation, is more important than being told anothers truthor tha tsomething is real and possible for you. None the less I have spent 8 years or so on UM telling people that this is the normal condition for humanity,nNot the limited version most people settle for. But it wont work until you accept it will work or until you see it in action in your own life.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Mr Walker