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Abramelin

Origin of the Tuaregs

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The Tuaregs, who call themselves Imajaghan or Imashagen (Free People), were once distributed across North Africa from the north and east to the west of the Nile. They lived on the Sahara as both semi-nomadic and pastoral peoples. They have continued to migrated west and southward through time. Today with economic and political changes Tuareg territory is spread among the nations of Niger, Mali, Algeria, Libya, Senegal, Nigeria and Burkina Faso. The Tuareg people have become less nomadic with many settling in towns. According to the Annals of Human Genetics, mitochondrial DNA studies show that the majority of modern Libyan Tuaregs fall into the H1 haplogroup. This indicates that many of the Tuareg originally migrated from the Iberian Peninsula perhaps as early as 5000 years ago, later mixing with Berber and Sub-Saharan groups. The Tuareg at first used oxen for their caravans, adopting the camel and the camel-trade social structure from Arab camel nomads entering the region from Arabia about 2000 years ago.

http://suite101.com/article/the-tuareg-muslim-men-who-wear-the-veil-a184703

I have read here and there that the Basques were related to the Berber, but that it went the other way round, namely that people from NW Africa migrated to the Iberian Peninsula many thousands of years ago....

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I think like many other tribes Tuaregs were forced into Islam to survive, this is prolly why they kept the traditionnal Meccah matrilineal structure given by Kobe, the ancient Goddess of Meccah.

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I think like many other tribes Tuaregs were forced into Islam to survive, this is prolly why they kept the traditionnal Meccah matrilineal structure given by Kobe, the ancient Goddess of Meccah.

Kobe??? goddess of mecca?

could you please provide some more info on this "goddess"??

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Kobe??? goddess of mecca?

could you please provide some more info on this "goddess"??

Oups I mispelled it. It's Kore triple Goddess that was worshiped until Mohamed changed to Allah. Here is the first link I found on the web didn't feel like searching more. I got my info from Walker Women Encyclopedia of Myth and Secrets.

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Kobe??? goddess of mecca?

could you please provide some more info on this "goddess"??

I was thinking of Kaaba, but that's the name of the cubical shrine in Mecca, not of a goddess.

But does anyone have something to say about these Tuareg originating on the Iberian Peninsula?

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Oups I mispelled it. It's Kore triple Goddess that was worshiped until Mohamed changed to Allah. Here is the first link I found on the web didn't feel like searching more. I got my info from Walker Women Encyclopedia of Myth and Secrets.

And how was this goddess "Kore" called by the Tuareg?

Considering the recent results of genetical research and archeology, she may have come from ancient Anatolia, not Northern Africa.

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And how was this goddess "Kore" called by the Tuareg?

Considering the recent results of genetical research and archeology, she may have come from ancient Anatolia, not Northern Africa.

Tuqregs may very well have kept their animistic mores and their matrilinear's habits from the ancient Goddess worship which they later adapted to Islam. It wouldn't be the first time people would do that. In fact many Arabis scientists such as Avicenne were lip believers.

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Tuqregs may very well have kept their animistic mores and their matrilinear's habits from the ancient Goddess worship which they later adapted to Islam. It wouldn't be the first time people would do that. In fact many Arabis scientists such as Avicenne were lip believers.

If it's true the Tuareg originated in the Iberian Peninsula, 5000 or more years ago, could their goddess be related to the Basque goddess "Mari"?

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If it's true the Tuareg originated in the Iberian Peninsula, 5000 or more years ago, could their goddess be related to the Basque goddess "Mari"?

5000 years ago, most of what is today's Western world was mainly worshipping Goddesses under various names: May it be Mari for the Basques, Rosemerta for the Senons, Brigid for the Alemans, I believe Druids were worshipping a Virgin (which was still seen in Chartres in the crypte and was destroyed sometimes in the XII th century, to be replaced by another black Madonna). Mari, just like Kore was prolly worshipped as a Moon Goddess of Creation, which would be logical considering birth was only given by woment (unless there is something I don't know about that :P) until Sun Gods appeared and took over. I don't think the sun god worship had anything to do with the beginning of farming and herding. We know from Gopeki Tepe this was already actively practiced 12 000 years ago. But something did happen and changed it. Moses brought Yahwe, Akhenaton brought Aton, and it went downhill for Goddess worship since then. The Basques continued to worshipped Mari when christian appeared, so they changed her name to Mary but continued the worship in caves like before. This is perhaps why Mary is so important for the Basques whereas JC is basically inconsequential. But the later part is just elucubration Doen't mean it couldn't be true. 76% of the Black Madonnas of France have been found in caves in the particular region that was once the territory of Basques until Romans and Wisigoths showed up..then the Merovingians....... and then Dan Brown :P

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Wouldn't this be fun: it were people related to Basques who started the Egyptian Dynasties?

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The thing is I believe there was a unique form of worship prior to known history and it was primarly a Goddess worship (as I said this is my personal belief and I will not argue with anyone about this). The primal Goddess name appears to have been Ann The fact that similar type of remnants of worship appears in different cultures tends to prove it but there aren't any "orthodox" studies on the subject. Hans Soderberg who is a Cathar wrote something on the subject but I can't find him nor his work on the net. He's name appears in Deodat Roche's books and those of Andre Douzet (the later two are also modern Cathari, Roche died at the ripe age of 101 in 1978).

Isn't strange also that Ann (the primeval Goddess) becomes Anne the mother of Mary in christian pantheon. So who knows? Perhaps the Basques were our ancestors and gave us all our history. There has not been any real studies (mycochondrial DNA for instances) between the Tuaregs, the Basques and the Egyptians but if a link was found I wouldn't be surprise.

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Paracelse, you may remember I once told you about what I posted in the Oera Linda Book thread about "Hludana" and the "Black Madonna"? I know you were interested, but I forgot if I ever sent you links to the posts I made about it.

==

And how could there have been geographical contact between North Africans, Basques and Celts? Clearly by sea, with the Berbers being expert sailors who in Neolithic times reached the Canary Islands.

http://howiefirth.wordpress.com/2012/04/23/the-north-africa-connection/

And, as we all know, the Basques were certainly known as excellent sailors.

The link between the "Iberians" and Tuareg appears to be much older:

Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel.

The West Eurasian component observed in the Tuareg is highly interesting. A major proportion (94%) could be allocated to haplogroups H1, H3 and V, West Eurasian lineages of Iberian origin that spread to Europe and most probably North Africa with the improvement of the climatic conditions after the retreat of the ice sheets 15 000–13 000 years ago. The interpolation maps of these lineages across North Africa and Europe (Supplementary Material SM5) clearly place the Tuareg population in the path of the southern African edge of post-Last Glacial Maximum expansions. The H1 haplogroup (Supplementary Material SM5A and SM5B, with and without the outlier Norway, respectively) is as frequent in our southern Tuareg groups as in Libya and the centre of the dispersion within the Iberian Peninsula. The H3 haplogroup is almost vestigial in Tuareg (Supplementary Material SM5C), having the highest observed frequencies outside of Iberia in Algeria and Tunisia. Again for haplogroup V, Tuareg present frequencies as high as in the Basque country (Supplementary Material SM5D).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987384/

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Paracelse, you may remember I once told you about what I posted in the Oera Linda Book thread about "Hludana" and the "Black Madonna"? I know you were interested, but I forgot if I ever sent you links to the posts I made about it.

==

And how could there have been geographical contact between North Africans, Basques and Celts? Clearly by sea, with the Berbers being expert sailors who in Neolithic times reached the Canary Islands.

http://howiefirth.wo...ica-connection/

And, as we all know, the Basques were certainly known as excellent sailors.

The link between the "Iberians" and Tuareg appears to be much older:

Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel.

The West Eurasian component observed in the Tuareg is highly interesting. A major proportion (94%) could be allocated to haplogroups H1, H3 and V, West Eurasian lineages of Iberian origin that spread to Europe and most probably North Africa with the improvement of the climatic conditions after the retreat of the ice sheets 15 000–13 000 years ago. The interpolation maps of these lineages across North Africa and Europe (Supplementary Material SM5) clearly place the Tuareg population in the path of the southern African edge of post-Last Glacial Maximum expansions. The H1 haplogroup (Supplementary Material SM5A and SM5B, with and without the outlier Norway, respectively) is as frequent in our southern Tuareg groups as in Libya and the centre of the dispersion within the Iberian Peninsula. The H3 haplogroup is almost vestigial in Tuareg (Supplementary Material SM5C), having the highest observed frequencies outside of Iberia in Algeria and Tunisia. Again for haplogroup V, Tuareg present frequencies as high as in the Basque country (Supplementary Material SM5D).

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2987384/

So now there is a definite scientific and languistic explanation for the religious similarities between the Tuaregs, the Basques and also the Celts who appear to worship a Goddess and who had hiddent their worship within today's accepted form: Islam for the Tuaregs and Christianity for the Basques, the Celts having been out of the picture for nearly 2000 years in terms of true culture.

Forgot to mention, do you think Viking (a form of Celts) could have received their knowledge of the "Sunstone" from Tuaregs and Basques?

Sunstone

Edited by Paracelse

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So now there is a definite scientific and languistic explanation for the religious similarities between the Tuaregs, the Basques and also the Celts who appear to worship a Goddess and who had hiddent their worship within today's accepted form: Islam for the Tuaregs and Christianity for the Basques, the Celts having been out of the picture for nearly 2000 years in terms of true culture.

Forgot to mention, do you think Viking (a form of Celts) could have received their knowledge of the "Sunstone" from Tuaregs and Basques?

Sunstone

The Vikings were a Germanic people. and certainly no Celts.

But I have no idea who they got their idea of the Sunstone from.

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They were indeed more Germanic but they definitely mixed with Celts in the Eastern European regions, just like the Slavs did. The reasons for bringing the "sunstone" was Tuaregs and Basques were seafarers of might and they must have had a mean to direct themselves around.

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They were indeed more Germanic but they definitely mixed with Celts in the Eastern European regions, just like the Slavs did. The reasons for bringing the "sunstone" was Tuaregs and Basques were seafarers of might and they must have had a mean to direct themselves around.

Yes, they mixed with many people they conquered or whose land they invaded/raided, but that happened some 4000 years after the period I talk about. Around 3000 BCE they still lived quite separated from the Celts, and most probably the Celts had not even arrived in Europe.

Well, unless the latest theory is true, and that the Celts originated from a people related to the present Basques, but then still, the Celts would have lived at the Atlantic coast of mainland Europe (southern and western France, Iberia) and Switzerland, while the Germanic tribes lived far to the north and east of pre-Celtic territory.

If the ancient Iberians sailed to the far north and east (Baltic), why does this sunstone only show up many thousands of years later with the Vikings?

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Yes, they mixed with many people they conquered or whose land they invaded/raided, but that happened some 4000 years after the period I talk about. Around 3000 BCE they still lived quite separated from the Celts, and most probably the Celts had not even arrived in Europe.

Well, unless the latest theory is true, and that the Celts originated from a people related to the present Basques, but then still, the Celts would have lived at the Atlantic coast of mainland Europe (southern and western France, Iberia) and Switzerland, while the Germanic tribes lived far to the north and east of pre-Celtic territory.

If the ancient Iberians sailed to the far north and east (Baltic), why does this sunstone only show up many thousands of years later with the Vikings?

.

I know the Amber trade goes back 4000 years ago at least from books I've read in the past but so we know someone was visiting the Baltic area back then but I couldn't find how far back it really goes.

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I know the Amber trade goes back 4000 years ago at least from books I've read in the past but so we know someone was visiting the Baltic area back then but I couldn't find how far back it really goes.

The amber routes were land and river routes, most from the Baltic (maybe also the North Sea) to the Adriatic and the Black Sea area. They must have been old for Baltic amber shows up in ancient Egypt,

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I really don't remember where I've read about the amber and the slave trade with Middle East. But I'm clearly recall sea routes rather than land routes. Coming from Istanbul to the Noth Sea by land is very dangerous. Even today

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I really don't remember where I've read about the amber and the slave trade with Middle East. But I'm clearly recall sea routes rather than land routes. Coming from Istanbul to the Noth Sea by land is very dangerous. Even today

But was it the same 5000 years ago? Perhaps you're thinking of something around 1500 BCE or much later, during Roman times..

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But was it the same 5000 years ago? Perhaps you're thinking of something around 1500 BCE or much later, during Roman times..

Might be it.. right now I've got my head up my a-- with the 100 years war between England and France for a project of mine and Joah of Arc viewed by an French excentric called Grasset d'Orcet and has nothing to do with Basques and Tuaregs :P

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Kobe??? goddess of mecca?

could you please provide some more info on this "goddess"??

Methinks he might have meant the three daughters of Hubal. The main goddesses of Meccan Arabian mythology, which were Al-lāt, Al-‘Uzzá, and Manāt. Each of these was associated with certain domains and had shrines, which were destroyed. Al-lāt is the goddess associated with the underworld. Al-‘Uzzá, was a fertility goddess. Manāt was the goddess of fate. One important thing to remember, the Kaaba of Mecca, did exist prior to Islam and was covered in symbols representing the myriad demons, djinn, demigods, tribal gods and other assorted deities, which represented the polytheistic culture of pre-Islamic Arabia.

So in a nuttshell, goddess of Mecca is most likely plausible, however the name Kobe is probably wrong, unless the Tuareg gave one of the above a totally different name. Sorry, my pre-Islamic arabian mythology is a bit lacking.

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Methinks he might have meant the three daughters of Hubal. The main goddesses of Meccan Arabian mythology, which were Al-lāt, Al-‘Uzzá, and Manāt. Each of these was associated with certain domains and had shrines, which were destroyed. Al-lāt is the goddess associated with the underworld. Al-‘Uzzá, was a fertility goddess. Manāt was the goddess of fate. One important thing to remember, the Kaaba of Mecca, did exist prior to Islam and was covered in symbols representing the myriad demons, djinn, demigods, tribal gods and other assorted deities, which represented the polytheistic culture of pre-Islamic Arabia.

So in a nuttshell, goddess of Mecca is most likely plausible, however the name Kobe is probably wrong, unless the Tuareg gave one of the above a totally different name. Sorry, my pre-Islamic arabian mythology is a bit lacking.

Actually if you had my next post I corrected myself. The name I should have used was Kore

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Actually if you had my next post I corrected myself. The name I should have used was Kore

Well I did say the name was prolly incorrect. At least it fills out the gaps that might still persist otherwise.

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