Provocative clothing invites attacks?

[libstaK]

I have just read the following opinion piece on CNN regarding the recent rape and murder in India. I think the findings are evolved and parallel what I have been trying to get across for so many pages.

Highlights from article Misogyny in India: We are all guilty: http://edition.cnn.c....html?hpt=hp_c2

Mumbai, India (CNN) -- Misogyny is so deeply rooted in India's collective psychology that even the president's son -- in this case, Congress Parliament member Abhijit Mukherjee -- could entangle himself with a remark against women protesting gang rape.

He called them "dented and painted women" who go to discos, have little connection with ground realities and are making candlelight vigils fashionable.

After an enormous backlash, he apologized and retracted his comments, but many are not satisfied and want his resignation.

.....

In India, sexual violence is perpetrated almost entirely by men. Rapists are male. Should men not feel responsible then to prevent the occurrence of this crime? Shouldn't men be disturbed that their mothers, sisters, wives and daughters constantly feel unsafe or feel they have to dress and behave in a particular way to avoid getting raped? Isn't it time men educated other men about consent?

....

Secondly, and this point took me longer to acknowledge, women are as guilty as men for the mindset that breeds the crime.

Well what do you know, there is a movement in the world, a shift in paradigm. It doesn't have to be the way it has been in the past. Men and women can all do something to enact change for the better and safety for women and men in this world.

Edited January 6, 2013 by libstaK

[TheLastLazyGun]

It looks there many others out there who think that there are some women who dress too provocatively.....

The '****-shaming' phenomenon sweeping the web: How teenage girls are ridiculing peers who 'dress too provocatively or wear too much make-up'

• Hey Girl, Did You Know meme going strong after one teenager posted picture last summer shaming other girls for wearing revealing clothes
  
• Comes on the heels of 'Dear Girls, Don't Be Insecure,' a photo posted by model Cole Mohr
  

A deeply worrying trend, known as ‘****-shaming,’ has taken flight in recent years, fuelled by microblogging sites such as Tumblr, as well as Facebook.

In these posts, teenage girls – and sometimes boys – criticize certain body types or wardrobe choices, often being ruthless in the process.

The image that started one particular meme of ****-shaming was the ‘Hey Girls, Did You Know’ post, when Tumblr user officialsabrina_xo uploaded a photo of her with captions saying, ‘Girls, did you know, that uhm, your boobs go inside your shirt?’

According to Know Your Meme, the image was removed shortly after it was uploaded, but the damage was done.

Starting on June 18th, 2012, the image of the brunette was reblogged across the internet, sparking the meme

A week later, the Hey Girls, Did You Know Facebook page was formed. As of this year, it has nearly 37,000 ‘likes.’

While a majority of the photos are simply innocuous memes like SpongeBob SquarePants or pictures of cats or other harmless memes, others point out what they perceive to be as shortcomings of their peers.

In one such post, a blogger writes with accompanying pictures: ‘Hey girls, uhm did you know – open books, NOT legs?’

Retribution: In response to some photos, teenage boys offer their responses

Daily Mail online comments:

But shouldn't we be shaming girls who dress provocatively with a face caked in makeup? I'm not saying we should bully them but girls dress a certain way and then they attract a certain audience and then the girls complain about it. I just don't understand it. Never did. Perhaps that's why I was never "popular" in high school. But then again, most of the popular girls are...well....statistics now.

- AmberLynBigelow, Rhode Island, United States

***********************************************

It is getting quite ridiculous how much skin women are expected to show these days. What happened to acting and dressing like a lady and keeping your privates, top and bottom, covered? I'm so sick of seeing women's bodies shoved in my face every time I leave the house, switch on the tv, open a magazine etc etc. We are worth more than our appearance.

- Learn How To Spell, Sydney, Australia

************************************************************

Why is this worrying? Kids telling other kids that posing like tramps and under valuing yourself isn't attractive, cool or clever. For some time the anything goes has allowed things to go too far so perhaps this is a good thing

- Shaun, East of England, United Kingdom

*******************************************************

Read more: http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz2HDO9Uah6

Edited January 6, 2013 by TheLastLazyGun

[Doc Socks Junior]

You didn't answer my question. My question was about if women dressed a certain way are more likely to be raped. This has nothing to do with sexual desire.

Antecedents of sexual victimization: factors discriminating victims from nonvictims.

Synovitz LB, Byrne TJ., J Am Coll Health. Jan;46(4):151-8. (1998)

Partial abstract:

The variables found to be related to women's being sexually victimized were (a) number of different lifetime sexual partners, (

provocative dress, and © alcohol use.

An Examination of Date Rape, Victim Dress, and Perceiver Variables Within the Context of Attribution Theory

Workman JE, Freeburg EW., Sex Roles, Volume 41, Numbers 3-4, 261-277 (1995)

This study found in part that the way a woman choose to dress is sometimes taken as a statement about her character including vulnerability, desire and/or willingness to have sex and provocation of males which consequently affects the likelihood of rape, including date rape.

That's a yes.

You don't get it. I don't claim any special knowledge but in 20 years of working with offenders I've treated many rapists. You won't want to accept this, but I've not met many for whom sexual desire was the motivating factor in their offending. There have been a few who had trouble understanding what consent actually means, but they are the minority.

Oh, the classic anecdotal evidence in an internet argument. Wow, you completely convinced me. But not really.

Edited January 6, 2013 by socrates.junior

[+joc]

An Examination of Date Rape, Victim Dress, and Perceiver Variables Within the Context of Attribution Theory

Workman JE, Freeburg EW., Sex Roles, Volume 41, Numbers 3-4, 261-277 (1995)

This study found in part that the way a woman choose to dress is sometimes taken as a statement about her character including vulnerability, desire and/or willingness to have sex and provocation of males which consequently affects the likelihood of rape, including date rape.

That's a yes.

That is such a crock! A guy is not going to rape a woman because of her attire. He isn't going to rape her because she came on to him and then backed off. There is only one reason a man rapes a woman...because there is something wrong with HIM. I am sick and tired of apologists for the rapist. If a woman walks into a night club naked and is raped...that is not her fault. Period. There is zero, ZERO fault that can be placed on a woman for being raped. That's the entire bottom line here. Anyone who apologizes for rapists needs to seriously consider their own psyche as to why.

[Doc Socks Junior]

Oh, is someone just ignoring evidence in favor of their personal OPINION? Looks like it to me. It's a little childish. Well, very childish, but I'm trying to be nice.

[+joc]

Oh, is someone just ignoring evidence in favor of their personal OPINION? Looks like it to me. It's a little childish. Well, very childish, but I'm trying to be nice.

And what is the source of this 'evidence'...the rapist! Please.

[Doc Socks Junior]

There is no use arguing with you. You're unbelievably tied to your views, to the cost of ignoring evidence that conflicts with it.

God forbid the issue is not as black and white as you think it is. You are arguing like a child.

EDIT: I know everyone on this board is OBVIOUSLY experts in psychology, sociology and all the related fields that would enable their personal judgment to be correct. Otherwise, ignoring actual EVIDENCE would be a little stupid.

Edited January 6, 2013 by socrates.junior

[Star of the Sea]

I didn't judge anyone a whore, how ridiculous! Now you're presuming I can't tell the difference between a whore and dressing like one? Come on! If she's dressing like something she's not, WHY IS SHE DOING THAT? You either can't or won't answer the question because it reveals the inherent error in your opinion. It's to elicit a sexual attraction that's why. If she's mindless or unaware, she gets the finger pointed by Star. If she's making bad judgments, she gets pointed at by Michelle. If she dresses like a whore, she gets pointed at by me. You give them zero criticism and even praise for their finger pointing while you push this idealistic fantasy world down on me only.

Here we go again and again with the "should" routine. Woulda shoulda coulda and common dreams of a crime free world is not going to protect anyone. Yeah I agree with you on every should you've said on this thread and it doesn't make it any more sensible or any less stupid to feign this inability to understand that sexually provocative clothing elicits a sexual response. How many times do I have to ask the question? I'm becoming pretty sure it doesn't even matter to you why she's dressed like a whore, she should be able to do it for whatever reason she wants! That's ignorant beyond belief. If not being AWARE is what's worth pointing the finger then it applies here if it applies anywhere.

Somehow you're suggesting that when it's rape (and not just domestic abuse, assault, battery, bullying et al) it's a special case and a 2nd standard for (avoiding) common sense must be adhered to.

A jewelry store selling jewelry is appearing honestly for what it really is. A location loaded with beautiful jewelry trying to entice people on the street to come in and buy it (analogous to a whore). A girl who doesn't want to elicit sexual attention to herself shouldn't be stupid enough to do so. I won't wear my "flame baiting" t-shirt or red bandana either. But you can't have it one way when it fits you and another way when it doesn't.

Yamato I take exception at your comment "If she's mindless or unaware, she gets the finger pointed by Star" Please don't put words in my mouth. You are being duplicitous and it doesn't take a psychologist to see what you are doing.

[+joc]

There is no use arguing with you. You're unbelievably tied to your views, to the cost of ignoring evidence that conflicts with it.

God forbid the issue is not as black and white as you think it is. You are arguing like a child.

I think you are projecting. I am not even arguing. I am just saying that if you interview 10,000 rapists, and you ask them all about their desires, motives, what caused them to rape, etc......all of that is a perspective from the rapist.

Maybe this is what you are missing...and I think you and Yomoto are both good guys...because....Here is the scenario:

You, I, and Yamato are in a bar. Lady A walks in dressed like someone from the 50's. Lady B walks in and is dressed like your local prostitute...in fact she may be one...who knows? Lady C is wearing a g-string and pasties...and tattooed across her ass are the words Wanna Get Lucky? We might all have differing views on who is hottest, most sexiest whatever...but neither I, nor you, nor Yamato is going to rape either of the three...not in the club, not in our car, not in an alley. But, if either of the three happens to be walking in the alley, and there is a rapist looking for an opportunity...he is going to rape whoever is in the alley, regardless of their attire. Can you not see that?

[TSS]

Antecedents of sexual victimization: factors discriminating victims from nonvictims.

Synovitz LB, Byrne TJ., J Am Coll Health. Jan;46(4):151-8. (1998)

Partial abstract:

The variables found to be related to women's being sexually victimized were (a) number of different lifetime sexual partners, (

provocative dress, and © alcohol use.

An Examination of Date Rape, Victim Dress, and Perceiver Variables Within the Context of Attribution Theory

Workman JE, Freeburg EW., Sex Roles, Volume 41, Numbers 3-4, 261-277 (1995)

This study found in part that the way a woman choose to dress is sometimes taken as a statement about her character including vulnerability, desire and/or willingness to have sex and provocation of males which consequently affects the likelihood of rape, including date rape.

That's a yes.

Only the answer isn't 'yes', is it, since he didn't ask if a women who dresses provocatively can be raped, he asked if they are more likely to be raped, and the study didn't conclude the answer to be yes.

You should have posted the conclusion, which said this:

Conclusion

While it is an unpopular view, I think it is safe to say that provocative dress may increase the chance of rape in some situations.

At the moment it is hard to say anything for sure, as there are too many variable factors. Rape statistics are often misreported or not reported at all. We don't know enough about how people interpret or respond to clothing. There also seems to be a lack of studies focusing on this area, which is understandable given the problems in obtaining data

Key words: May and in some situations ...not "yes they are more likely to be raped.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Study findings on convicted rapists, and their motivations:

In the course of 20 years of interviewing these undetected rapists, in both

research and forensic settings, it has been possible for me to distill some of the

common characteristics of the modus operandi of these sex offenders. These

undetected rapists:

• are extremely adept at identifying “likely” victims, and testing prospective

victims’ boundaries;

• plan and premeditate their attacks, using sophisticated strategies to groom

their victims for attack, and to isolate them physically;

• use “instrumental” not gratuitous violence; they exhibit strong impulse

control and use only as much violence as is needed to terrify and coerce

their victims into submission;

• use psychological weapons – power, control, manipulation, and threats –

backed up by physical force, and almost never resort to weapons such as

knives or guns;

• use alcohol deliberately to render victims more vulnerable to attack, or

completely unconscious.

http://www.wcsap.org/sites/www.wcsap.org/files/uploads/webinars/SV%20on%20Campus/UnderstandingthePredatoryNatureofSexualViolence.pdf

Attire played no motivation, in fact in some cases it had the opposite effect, predators choosing women that looked more shy and easier to control.

References the study referred to:

References

1. Alaska State Legislature, Senate Journal, text for Senate Bill 218, February 16,

2006, 24th

Legislature, 2nd

session.

(http://www.legis.state.ak.us/basis/get_single_journal.asp?session=24&date=2

0060216&beg_page=2201&end_page=2227&chamber=S&jrn=2207)

2. Fisher, B.S., Cullen, F.T., & Turner, M.G. (2000). The sexual victimization of

college women (Report No. NCJ-182369). Washington, DC: Bureau of Justice

Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice.

3. National Victims Center (1992, April). Rape in America: A report to the nation.

Arlington, VA: Author.

4. Spears, J.W. & Spohn, C.C. (1997). The effect of evidence factors and victim

characteristics on prosecutors’ charging decisions in sexual assault cases. Justice

Quarterly, 14, 501-524.

5. Frazier, P. A., & Haney, B. (1996). Sexual assault cases in the legal system:

Police, prosecutor, and victim perspectives. Law and Human Behavior, 20,

607-628.

6. Burt, M. R. (1980). Cultural myths and supports for rape. Journal of

Personality and Social Psychhology, 38, 217-230.

7. Feild, H. S. (1978). Attitudes toward rape: A comparative analysis of police,

rapists, crisis counselors, and citizens. Journal of Personality and Social

Psychology, 36, 156-179.

8. Koss, M. P., Gidycz, C. A., & Wisniewski, N. (1987). The scope of rape:

Incidence and prevalence of sexual aggression and victimization in a national

sample of higher education students. Journal of Consulting and Clinical

Psychology, 55, 162-170.

9. Tjaden, P. & Thoennes, N. (2000). Full Report of the Prevalence, Incidence,

and Consequences of Violence Against Women (NCJ 183781). National Institute

of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, Washinngton, DC.

10. Estrich, S. (1987). Real rape. Cambridge: Harvard University Press.

11. Groth, N. A. (1979). Men who rape. New York: Plenum Press.

12. Prentky, R., Cohen, M. & Seghorn, T. (1985). Development of a rational

taxonomy for the classification of rapists: The Massachusetts Treatment Center

system. Bulletin of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law, 13, 39-70

[Lava_Lady]

@ yamata & Socrates

Wearing provocative clothing is a bid for attention it is not an invitation or cause for rape.

If provocative clothing is all it took for men to become rapists, women would not wear provocative clothing because rape is a violent act. It its taking something without permission.

If all it takes for a man to decide he's going to rape is provocative clothing then all men including you two are potential rapists. It means thaT men have absolutely no control over their behavior and that a woman wearing something considered sexy will trigger an aggressive sexual response and if the woman does not respond in kind that she's inviting rape. So, you two are potential rapists...or maybe you already are....

[TSS]

Lets not go down the route of making statements about people's motivations behind their opinion please people. It's an emotive enough subject without it getting personal. Thanks.

Edited January 6, 2013 by Sky Scanner

[+ouija ouija]

here's to hoping you end up in prison.

Whoa!! There's no need for that ..... that's really bad.

My other hope is that you don't have any daughters...

If you do, I feel sorry for them.

You should read this entire thread. Yamato would be great with daughters because they would learn how the world really is and this would not exclude them from trying to change things for the better!

[Mr.United_Nations]

The sad thing that men try to distant themselves from being blamed and the women also distance themselves from being blamed.

[Doc Socks Junior]

@Skanner

May...in some situations...that's the point I was making. It's obviously not a cut and dried issue. Attire obviously isn't an excuse, and it obviously isn't a primary motivation. It is a factor though, sometimes. The second study never actually goes into that issue, so it's unsurprising it doesn't find it as a motivator.

@LavaLady

Wow, that escalated quickly. I'd better say, for the sake of posterity, that no I am not a rapist. It says something that you're instantly throwing that accusation out there though. "It is taking "something" without permission." WTF is it taking, for goodness sake? It is a sexual assault, so sexuality has something to do with it. Yes, it is about power, yes it is about control. BUT THERE ARE MORE FACTORS. Goodness.

[+ouija ouija]

My husband kinda likes it when I am.

Oh, grow up! Yamato said most women prefer sexually dominant men .... which is true.

[Lava_Lady]

@Skanner

May...in some situations...that's the point I was making. It's obviously not a cut and dried issue. Attire obviously isn't an excuse, and it obviously isn't a primary motivation. It is a factor though, sometimes. The second study never actually goes into that issue, so it's unsurprising it doesn't find it as a motivator.

@LavaLady

Wow, that escalated quickly. I'd better say, for the sake of posterity, that no I am not a rapist. It says something that you're instantly throwing that accusation out there though. "It is taking "something" without permission." WTF is it taking, for goodness sake? It is a sexual assault, so sexuality has something to do with it. Yes, it is about power, yes it is about control. BUT THERE ARE MORE FACTORS. Goodness.

I didn't say you two were I said maybe and that is only if your idea about provocative clothing was true. Because like I said, if its a matter of type of clothing than all men are potential rapists.

[Hasina]

Nope. I also don't buy that 'all men are potential rapists' bull. If you can tie your shoe, if you can talk, you can keep your zipper up. What I mean is it's a simple thing to resist and those who can't are disgusting.

Edit: Lava, this wasn't directed at you or anything, I just saw that phrase and decided to pull that idea into the discussion as well.

Edited January 6, 2013 by Hasina

[Arbenol]

Oh, the classic anecdotal evidence in an internet argument. Wow, you completely convinced me. But not really.

As opposed to the classic data and quote mining argument from someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

Although you are the only person that's attempted to answer the question with something other than baseless opinion.

I'll check them out. But just from what you posted it appears to contain the kind of prejudicial language I was objecting to. Sounds like the researchers may have made sure they found what they were looking for.

Edited January 6, 2013 by Arbenol68

[Mr Right Wing]

@ yamata & Socrates

Wearing provocative clothing is a bid for attention it is not an invitation or cause for rape.

If provocative clothing is all it took for men to become rapists, women would not wear provocative clothing because rape is a violent act. It its taking something without permission.

If all it takes for a man to decide he's going to rape is provocative clothing then all men including you two are potential rapists. It means thaT men have absolutely no control over their behavior and that a woman wearing something considered sexy will trigger an aggressive sexual response and if the woman does not respond in kind that she's inviting rape. So, you two are potential rapists...or maybe you already are....

Lets suppose that the end of civilization came.

Question for guys - If you came across a stunning women dressed in provocative clothing what would you do -

1. Try to get your way with her and if she says no respect her decision.

2. Try to get your way with her and if she says no help yourself - afterall theres no police anymore.

3. Jump straight to helping yourself.

Question for girls - You raid a pharmacy and discover some Viagra. You also come across a stunning male dressed provocatively. What would you do -

1. Try to get your way with him and if he says no respect his decision.

2. Try to get your way with him and if he says no hit him over the head, tie him up, force feed him Viagra then help youirself - still no police.

3. Jump straight to the hitting over the head, tying up, Viagra and you know what.

[WoIverine]

Provocative clothing is more likely to get a woman noticed by someone who is a potential male predator, than if she were wearing a 300lb fat suit. It is that initial attraction which leads to the added attention, which then leads to the eventual obsession by a predator, which leads to the attack. Also, when advances are rejected, the attraction takes on the trait of control and becomes something else entirely, one plays into the other. If the woman looked like crap, the less likely she would be to receieve the initial attention leading to everything else. Men are visual. It is a fact that most women who are attacked are attacked by someone they know, mostly an acquaintence. If the predator wasn't attracted to the victim (visually at first) the chances are, there would be no attack. It's just common sense.

Edited January 6, 2013 by WoIverine

[Hasina]

Anyone heard of Rule 34? The problem I have with this idea that provocative clothing just clicks something on in all men is silly. Everyone has different tastes. What they find appealing, what they find erotic, etc and so forth. Someone may rape a lady cause she's wearing a boob tube, while another may rape her cause she's wearing a cardigan and jeans. It's what the rapist views as appealing.

[WoIverine]

Anyone heard of Rule 34? The problem I have with this idea that provocative clothing just clicks something on in all men is silly. Everyone has different tastes. What they find appealing, what they find erotic, etc and so forth. Someone may rape a lady cause she's wearing a boob tube, while another may rape her cause she's wearing a cardigan and jeans. It's what the rapist views as appealing.

Yes, but the question is, what is the percentage of women attacked who wear similar provocative things...versus those who wear potato sacks with turtle necks? I would bet on those who wear provocative clothing being attacked more often. Maybe I'd lose the bet since soceity has radically changed over the past 20-30 years lol.

Edited January 6, 2013 by WoIverine

[Hasina]

Yes, but the question is, what is the percentage of women attacked who wear similar provocative things...versus those who wear potato sacks with turtle necks? I would bet on those who wear provocative clothing being attacked more often.

We can haggle over the wager when the numbers come in.

[WoIverine]

We can haggle over the wager when the numbers come in.

Deal, I'm down with that.