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Provocative clothing invites attacks?

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Bingo! Post of the day!

What makes it the post of the day? Because it's insulting to me personally, or because it's substantially wrong?

Good police work studies the motives of a crime, and yet here we go again, applying another double standard solely to rape. I'm almost ashamed at the deliberate ignorance, this lethargy on display here in this "Post of the day", to prevent violent crime just because it happens to be rape. That's just a matter of incidence. We could be talking about murder here and the reason someone isn't going to say that they don't want to get in the mind of a murderer is because they don't have the politically correct altruistic attitude towards women to say it with.

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As has been pointed out numerous times, no one dressed it up like an MMA fight - it was only you that thought it sounded the same, that is your problem though, nothing to do with the discussion about rape.

Is there anything else worth discussing? it's just i'm not really into explaining things again and again to the same person, so if anything new comes to light, let me know :tu:

Yes someone did, and it was ridiculous. Stripping sex from rape is dishonest and it serves these derelict attitudes that cause the horrible problems in our society that sex is prerequisite of.

You can't know that the entire community here is incapable of bringing something to the discussion that even you find palatable, so don't ask me if there's anything worth discussing here. Neither one of us have the vantage point to know or claim that. If you want to hamstring a discussion because you can't handle its expansion, that's on you buddy.

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What makes it the post of the day? Because it's insulting to me personally, or because it's substantially wrong?

Good police work studies the motives of a crime, and yet here we go again, applying another double standard solely to rape. I'm almost ashamed at the deliberate ignorance, this lethargy on display here in this "Post of the day", to prevent violent crime just because it happens to be rape. That's just a matter of incidence. We could be talking about murder here and the reason someone isn't going to say that they don't want to get in the mind of a murderer is because they don't have the politically correct altruistic attitude towards women to say it with.

It was post of the day for me for the opening sentence, i.e it's not the hottest topic of the day, it's the stupidest.

You are tiresome in the extreme though at your attempts to paint people in a different light to what their posts say - it's starting to get irritating now. Nobody is saying they don't want to prevent violent crime, what they are telling you, and keep telling you is that they differ in what they see as the right approach, the motives, and causes of rape. Of course you'll ignore that, in order to place yourself above others in some strange attempt to appear to have a better insight into these matters.

Go on, lets here the next pointless twist on someones post.....

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Yes someone did, and it was ridiculous. Stripping sex from rape is dishonest and it serves these derelict attitudes that cause the horrible problems in our society that sex is prerequisite of.

You can't know that the entire community here is incapable of bringing something to the discussion that even you find palatable, so don't ask me if there's anything worth discussing here. Neither one of us have the vantage point to know or claim that. If you want to hamstring a discussion because you can't handle its expansion, that's on you buddy.

Expansion? Good.

Repeating the same points to you because you fail to grasp simple points? Not good.

And example of you failing to grasp simple points - nobody stripped sex from rape, it's whether it's the primary motive that's being discussed, since clothing was made an issue, but only works if control and violence are secondary motives - the studies show othrwise, so your opinion on it becomes moot if studies show other over riding factors

Edited by Sky Scanner

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It was post of the day for me for the opening sentence, i.e it's not the hottest topic of the day, it's the stupidest.

You are tiresome in the extreme though at your attempts to paint people in a different light to what their posts say - it's starting to get irritating now. Nobody is saying they don't want to prevent violent crime, what they are telling you, and keep telling you is that they differ in what they see as the right approach, the motives, and causes of rape. Of course you'll ignore that, in order to place yourself above others in some strange attempt to appear to have a better insight into these matters.

Go on, lets here the next pointless twist on someones post.....

I'm not ignoring anything! What are you talking about? You should provide some evidence for these baseless accusations, if you even can. I have good reasons to have the principle that I do and there's nothing stupid about preventing crime. You running and hiding from the fact that the causes of rape can be behaviorally dependent is not my problem.

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I'm not ignoring anything! What are you talking about? You should provide some evidence for these baseless accusations, if you even can. I have good reasons to have the principle that I do and there's nothing stupid about preventing crime. You running and hiding from the fact that the causes of rape can be behaviorally dependent is not my problem.

Can be, as can many other factors as have already been discussed. What's your next point?

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Expansion? Good.

Repeating the same points to you because you fail to grasp simple points? Not good.

And example of you failing to grasp simple points - nobody stripped sex from rape, it's whether it's the primary motive that's being discussed, since clothing was made an issue, but only works if control and violence are secondary motives - the studies show othrwise, so your opinion on it becomes moot if studies show other over riding factors

Yes they did. They said sex had nothing to do with rape. Don't lie here by accident or on purpose please. The quotes are there. Go back and review this thread that you weren't participating in before telling me what wasn't said.

You're obviously irritated and I suggest cooling your jets and stopping what's starting to look like a deliberate thread hijacking. Okay? We can agree to disagree, and move merrily along.

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Can be, as can many other factors as have already been discussed. What's your next point?

Yes, CAN BE. And other factors that have yet to be discussed. That's what expanding the discussion is all about. Open the floor to more factors, if you wish. If not, find something else to do.

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Yes they did. They said sex had nothing to do with rape. Don't lie here by accident or on purpose please. The quotes are there. Go back and review this thread that you weren't participating in before telling me what wasn't said.

Surely you can see in saying that they are referring to motivation, since sex is part of the act, so they can't be referring to the act in it's entirity, but what drives it - surely that's obvious though isn't it?

You're obviously irritated and I suggest cooling your jets and stopping what's starting to look like a deliberate thread hijacking. Okay? We can agree to disagree, and move merrily along.

I appreciate your concern, but it's only repeating myself and explaining again and again that gets tiresome - other then that i'm fine :)

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Yes, CAN BE. And other factors that have yet to be discussed. That's what expanding the discussion is all about. Open the floor to more factors, if you wish. If not, find something else to do.

You seem to be late to the discussion, people have posted links and sources to many studies that show underlying motivations for rape, they were largely ignored in favor of pointless point scoring - go and read them and then you'll know the other factors yourself.

Edited by Sky Scanner

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*Checks to see if her post with the link to actual sociological research is still there*

Actual Evidence does exist clarifying the subject. I did post a link to it a couple of pages back.

Here's the opening paragraph:

Rape myths are beliefs about sexual assault that wrought with problems. Some myths are just completely and blatantly untrue. What often happens is that beliefs surrounding circumstances, situations, and characteristics of individuals connected to rape are applied to all cases and situations uncritically. Myths exist for many historic reasons which include inherited structural conditions, gender role expectations, and the fundamental exercise of power in a patriarchal society. The best way to approach rape myths are to confront them honestly and frankly. Don't deny their existence and don't dismiss one ungrounded statement with another.

It would be a real good idea to read this link:

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Surely you can see in saying that they are referring to motivation, since sex is part of the act, so they can't be referring to the act in it's entirity, but what drives it - surely that's obvious though isn't it?

No, saying that rape has nothing to do with sex was wrong whether it has anything to do with motivation or not. The tight clothing that the priest ranted about doesn't seem plausible. To be this deliberately ignorant that personal behavior causes rape is another issue.

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No, saying that rape has nothing to do with sex was wrong whether it has anything to do with motivation or not. The tight clothing that the priest ranted about doesn't seem plausible. To be this deliberately ignorant that personal behavior causes rape is another issue.

Well it was obvious to me what they meant, since you can't remove the act from the act itself, so there is only one meaning behind it imo.

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This:

Myth: Women incite men to rape.

Fact:
Research has found that the vast majority of rapes are planned. Rape is the responsibility of the rapist alone. Women, children and men of every age, physical type and demeanor are raped. Opportunity is the most important factor determining when a given rapist will rape.

Pretty much negates the vast majority of what's being presented here.

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You seem to be late to the discussion, people have posted links and sources to many studies that show underlying motivations for rape, they were largely ignored in favor of pointless point scoring - go and read them and then you'll know the other factors yourself.

I know what the factors are, that's why my principle holds water. Preventable decisions and personal behavior causes rape. That's important to know and understand and if you don't understand it, then you're the one that hasn't looked at the data.

You haven't even cited sources yourself, you came here starting rhetorical banter and personal argument with me. The Pot calling the Kettle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_sexual_violence

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Well it was obvious to me what they meant, since you can't remove the act from the act itself, so there is only one meaning behind it imo.

Removing the act from the act itself, and it was still obvious to you. Whatever. I'm sorry it wasn't obvious to me and that irritated you. You can't have rape without force and you can't have rape without sex. It's definitive, it's not my opinion.

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This:

[/indent]

Pretty much negates the vast majority of what's being presented here.

And the research supports it.

There has been considerable research in recent times on the role of cognitive variables among the set of factors that can lead to rape. Sexually violent men have been shown to be more likely to consider victims responsible for the rape and are less knowledgeable about the impact of rape on victims.[24] Such men may misread cues given out by women in social situations and may lack the inhibitions that act to suppress associations between sex and aggression.[24] They may have coercive sexual fantasies,[25] and overall are more hostile towards women than are men who are not sexually violent.[5][26][27] In addition to these factors, sexually violent men are believed to differ from other men in terms of impulsivity and antisocial tendencies.[28] They also tend to have an exaggerated sense of masculinity. Sexual violence is also associated with a preference for impersonal sexual relationships as opposed to emotional bonding[dubiousdiscuss], with having many sexual partners and with the inclination to assert personal interests at the expense of others.[27][29] A further association is with adversarial attitudes on gender, that hold that women are opponents to be challenged and conquered.[30]

  1. ^ a b Drieschner K, Lange A (1999). "A review of cognitive factors in the aetiology of rape: theories, empirical studies and implications". Clinical Psychology Review 19 (1): 57–77. PMID 9987584.
  2. ^ Dean KE, Malamuth NM. Characteristics of men who aggress sexually and of men who imagine aggressing: risk and moderating variables|journal=Journal of Personality and Social Psychology|year=1997, 72:449–455.
  3. ^ Koss, MP; Dinero, TE (1989). "Discriminant analysis of risk factors for sexual victimisation among a national sample of college women". Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology 57 (2): 242–50. PMID 2708612.
  4. ^ a b Malamuth NM (1998). "A multidimensional approach to sexual aggression: combining measures of past behavior and present likelihood". Annals of the New York Academy of Science 528: 113–146. doi:10.1111/j.1749-6632.1988.tb50855.x.
  5. ^ a b c Crowell NA, Burgess AW (eds.) Understanding violence against women. Washington, DC, National Academy Press, 1996.
  6. ^ Malamuth NM et al. (1991). "The characteristics of aggressors against women: testing a model using a national sample of college students". Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology 59 (5): 670–681. doi:10.1037/0022-006X.59.5.670. PMID 1955602.
  7. ^ Lisak, David; Roth, Susan (1990). "Motives and psychodynamics of selfreported, unincarcerated rapists". Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 60 (2): 584–589. doi:10.1037/h0079178.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_sexual_violence#Research_on_convicted_rapists

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I know what the factors are, that's why my principle holds water. Preventable decisions and personal behavior causes rape. That's important to know and understand and if you don't understand it, then you're the one that hasn't looked at the data.

You haven't even cited sources yourself, you came here starting rhetorical banter and personal argument with me. The Pot calling the Kettle.

http://en.wikipedia....sexual_violence

*bolding mine

You know what, that is as dumb as dumb can get, tell that to the 90yr old raped in her bed...even your own link disagrees with you...i'm through with this, you're not baiting me anymore...a dumb discussion with someone lacking the intelligence to follow through simple logic...i'm out, chat to someone else about it...

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I know what the factors are, that's why my principle holds water. Preventable decisions and personal behavior causes rape...

No, your principle does not hold water (it's more like a sieve). Some "preventable decisions and personal behavior(s)" can make being raped less of a risk. But, to completely eradicate the risk one would have to be locked up outside of society...not just dressed in a covered up manner. The "cause" of rape, however, falls totally/completely/100% upon the rapist. Apply this logic to other crimes and everyone would eventually have to be in a form of 'lock down' becasue we'd not be able to venture out into society without becoming violently robbed/assaulted.

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*bolding mine

You know what, that is as dumb as dumb can get, tell that to the 90yr old raped in her bed...even your own link disagrees with you...i'm through with this, you're not baiting me anymore...a dumb discussion with someone lacking the intelligence to follow through simple logic...i'm out, chat to someone else about it...

It's dumb to you because you are incapable of understanding personal responsibility in the case of rape. I hope for your own safety you're able to do so in other matters. My own link doesn't disagree with me. It shows that rapists are twisted in their understanding of sex, get their violent sexual wires crossed and misread cues in social situations.

I'm sorry if you don't agree that eliciting a sexual response in these violent perverts is dangerous. Again, we can agree to disagree.

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No, your principle does not hold water (it's more like a sieve). Some "preventable decisions and personal behavior(s)" can make being raped less of a risk. But, to completely eradicate the risk one would have to be locked up outside of society...not just dressed in a covered up manner. The "cause" of rape, however, falls totally/completely/100% upon the rapist. Apply this logic to other crimes and everyone would eventually have to be in a form of 'lock down' becasue we'd not be able to venture out into society without becoming violently robbed/assaulted.

I would never speak of impossible idealism that is "totally eradicating" a risk. The guilt, blame, responsibility of the rape apply 100% upon the rapist. The responsibility of preventing the rape applies to us all.

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And the research supports it.

There has been considerable research in recent times on the role of cognitive variables among the set of factors that can lead to rape...

How does citing the psychological illness/dysfunction of rapists support the notion that their victims are somehow responsible for the crime of rape?

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How does citing the psychological illness/dysfunction of rapists support the notion that their victims are somehow responsible for the crime of rape?

Lilly seriously, I didn't say that they were somehow responsible for the crime. I've repeated to the point of nausea that they're not. Victims aren't responsible for crimes. All people are responsible for themselves INDEPENDENT OF CRIME. We can prevent rape if we allow ourselves to understand that sex is intrinsically and definitively a part of this crime whether we cite the definition in the dictionary or the psychological illness/dysfunction of rapists.

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The thing is that rape really isn't about sex...it's about the violence/control/power. One could say that the sexual act is sublimated into an act of violence. Also, to say that everyone is responsible for preventing rape is irrational. Sure, there are choices each person can make to lower their risk (don't walk drunk down a dark alley way for example) but that's not going to always prevent one from being raped...especially when potential rapists may not be easily identified (family members, people of authority, clergymen etc). The prevention of rape has to be remediated by the same standards and criteria that we apply to other violent crimes. Basically, punishment has to similar to that of other violent crimes, victims of rape should not be seen as being complicit, this crime should not be 'swept under the rug' as it currently is.

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The thing is that rape really isn't about sex...it's about the violence/control/power. One could say that the sexual act is sublimated into an act of violence. Also, to say that everyone is responsible for preventing rape is irrational. Sure, there are choices each person can make to lower their risk (don't walk drunk down a dark alley way for example) but that's not going to always prevent one from being raped...especially when potential rapists may not be easily identified (family members, people of authority, clergymen etc). The prevention of rape has to be remediated by the same standards and criteria that we apply to other violent crimes. Basically, punishment has to similar to that of other violent crimes, victims of rape should not be seen as being complicit, this crime should not be 'swept under the rug' as it currently is.

Violence, control, and power through sex. Sexual acts and acts of violence aren't mutually exclusive. It isn't a sexual act first and then a violent act later. It doesn't have to sublimate or change into something else. It starts out as sex without consent and it ends that way too. It's not irrational to prevent crimes. I think you're right that rape should be treated by the same standards and criteria as other violent crimes. Why wouldn't we? Reporting, proving, punishing, and preventing. Learning how to defend ourselves is important to prevent violent crimes including rape as you can physically disable your attacker before the rape even begins. "The rapist is always to blame for the rape" is a true statement, but it's not a rational reason not to protect ourselves.

And others. If I see a rape in progress or one about to start, I'm going to intervene. Irrational? I don't have that responsibility? Yes, we do. If you don't want to get involved physically, pick up your cell phone and call the police and at least try to follow the attacker or stay with them. What's irrational are these internet videos where people are so clueless about their own civic duty, there's a violent crime occurring right in front of their faces and they just ignore it and walk away so ignorantly they might as well be prosecuted for criminal negligence. I would be enraged at seeing some good-for-nothing excuse for a citizen do that if it was done to my friend or relation.

That rape is underreported is even more reason to be preventative; because it's even more common than we know.

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