Provocative clothing invites attacks?

[Yamato]

I hope you don't mind me interjecting here IibstaK. I can't agree with you more. Here in the UK 'Victims support' a charitable organisation who are Counsellors for woman who are raped, are more than use to the fact that woman are raped not because of a sexual motive but more for the 'power and subjucation' that this affords the rapist who seeks out to 'dominate and wield power' over their victims.

Bullying is also about power and subjugation. Pray-tell me that I can talk to my nieces about what they can do to prevent themselves from being bullied without damaging their precious egos. Without deserving the scorn of libstaK. Please tell me that I can sweep the broken shards of their self-esteems off of the carpet when I suggest they should enroll in self-defense programs. Please tell me I can recommend this without them thinking that they're inadequate, or clumsy, or weak, or, God forbid, blamed and victimized!

[Star of the Sea]

Bullying is also about power and subjugation. Pray-tell me that I can talk to my nieces about what they can do to prevent themselves from being bullied without damaging their precious egos. Without deserving the scorn of lipsticK. Please tell me that I can sweep the broken shards of their self-esteems off of the carpet when I suggest they should enroll in self-defense programs. Please tell me I can recommend this without them thinking that they're inadequate, or clumsy, or weak, or, God forbid, blamed and victimized!

Yes bullying is about power and subjugation. I wouldn't be too concerned about damaging your nieces egos. In affect it is the perpetrators of bullying who have the 'self esteem issues'. You can wield power with words and body language in situations such as bullying, which is far more affective than any self defense programs.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Star of the Sea

[Yamato]

Yes bullying is about power and subjugation. I wouldn't be too concerned about damaging your nieces egos. In affect it is the perpetrators of bullying who have the 'self esteem issues'. You can wield power with words and body language in situations such as bullying, which is far more affective than any self defense programs.

I'll let you figure out how to improve the self-esteem of bullies then. Great point about words and body language though. Language isn't more important than self defense after the violent crime begins, but surely you can understand the importance of prevention by suggesting something so preventative as that.

[Star of the Sea]

I'll let you figure out how to improve the self-esteem of bullies then. Great point about words and body language though. Language isn't more important than self defense after the violent crime begins, but surely you can understand the importance of prevention by suggesting something so preventative as that.

Depends on the situation Yamato. There are too many scenarios to take into consideration. Are you talking about avoiding being raped or being bullied? Bullying encompasses so many different situations from being at school, the work place to domestic violence. You can bet your bottom dollar most of the woman that are raped in domestic violence have been bullied and controlled by their partners before a violent crime happens. The key is how to prevent the situation escalating and that means empowering the woman on how to react to a dominant and controlling partner/husband and that entails verbal and non verbal cues. Woman controlled by men are too frightened to realise that they can empower themselves before it's too late. Education is the key.

With regard to your comment: "I'll let you figure out how to improve the self-esteem of bullies then" You bet I do.. I am a qualified Psychotherapist and Cognitive Behavioural Therapist

[Yamato]

Depends on the situation Yamato. There are too many scenarios to take into consideration. Are you talking about avoiding being raped or being bullied? Bullying encompasses so many different situations from being at school, the work place to domestic violence. You can bet your bottom dollar most of the woman that are raped in domestic violence have been bullied and controlled by their partners before a violent crime happens. The key is how to prevent the situation escalating and that means empowering the woman on how to react to a dominant and controlling partner/husband and that entails verbal and non verbal cues. Woman controlled by men are too frightened to realise that they can empower themselves before it's too late. Education is the key.

With regard to your comment: "I'll let you figure out how to improve the self-esteem of bullies then" You bet I do.. I am a qualified Psychotherapist and Cognitive Behavioural Therapist

You can't be raped at the workplace? Bullied domestically? Whether in regards to prevention or self defense, I'm referring to both, in all situations and every conceivable scenario. Ergo, this isn't about who to blame.

[Yamato]

Depends on the situation Yamato. There are too many scenarios to take into consideration. Are you talking about avoiding being raped or being bullied? Bullying encompasses so many different situations from being at school, the work place to domestic violence. You can bet your bottom dollar most of the woman that are raped in domestic violence have been bullied and controlled by their partners before a violent crime happens. The key is how to prevent the situation escalating and that means empowering the woman on how to react to a dominant and controlling partner/husband and that entails verbal and non verbal cues. Woman controlled by men are too frightened to realise that they can empower themselves before it's too late. Education is the key.

With regard to your comment: "I'll let you figure out how to improve the self-esteem of bullies then" You bet I do.. I am a qualified Psychotherapist and Cognitive Behavioural Therapist

You've just conceded to my point here I think. You've just "pointed the finger" at women too. Though why do I think that ignorance is going to get a hall pass for some reason.

[Star of the Sea]

You can't be raped at the workplace? Bullied domestically? Whether in regards to prevention or self defense, I'm referring to both, in all situations and every conceivable scenario. Ergo, this isn't about who to blame.

Yes you can be bullied and raped anywhere, but it is usually by someone that you know and whom you are in a relationship with! It is of the uttermost importance that woman recognise the traits of a controlling and manipulative man before they commit to a serious relationship. This applies also to anyone whom you fraternize with ie: colleagues at work etc. Be aware of dominant behaviour, verbal bullying and quick temper as some innocent office flirting may turn into something very nasty.

It's all about dominant traits in a persons personality and recognising these traits before it's too late.Young girls with their first boyfriends need to be educated about relationships on 'how to be treated by a boy' Infact here in the UK they are 'airing' an advert for teenagers showing how bad abusive relationships can be and the advert is about rape and it shows a scene of a young couple in this scenario. Woman do get raped by strangers but the statistics are very low to this happening. So, of course common sense tells you don't be out too late on your own, keep in numbers and be sensible.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Star of the Sea

[Star of the Sea]

You've just conceded to my point here I think. You've just "pointed the finger" at women too. Though why do I think that ignorance is going to get a hall pass for some reason.

Yamato you talk in riddles! The OP is with regard to a Catholic Priest pointing the finger at woman for dressing provocatively... I can't see how you have come to the above conclusion with regard to my reply!! We are talking about woman not being AWARE of how an abusive relationship develops with a controlling male and can lead to domestic violence and then onto rape. Wolf in sheeps clothing comes to mind

Edited January 4, 2013 by Star of the Sea

[Yamato]

Yes you can be bullied and raped anywhere, but it is usually by someone that you know and whom you are in a relationship with! It is of the uttermost importance that woman recognise the traits of a controlling and manipulative man before they commit to a serious relationship. This applies also to anyone whom you fraternize with ie: colleagues at work etc. Be aware of dominant behaviour, verbal bullying and quick temper as some innocent office flirting may turn into something very nasty.

Well if that woman doesn't recognize the traits of a controlling and manipulative man, I won't blame her for the rape in that case either because the accusation would be as ridiculous as blaming her for doing something else she was ignorant about.

[Yamato]

Yamato you talk in riddles! The OP is with regard to a Catholic Priest pointing the finger at woman for dressing provocatively... I can't see how you have come to the above conclusion with regard to my reply!! We are talking about woman not being AWARE of how an abusive relationship develops with a controlling male and can lead to domestic violence and then onto rape. Wolf in sheeps clothing comes to mind

Yet you replied to a reply written to me, not to the priest. Dressing in a way that provokes a sexual response in the men around her, yes. Just as well, I'm talking with women who seemingly aren't AWARE of how sexual behavior could possibly provoke a sexual response that every now and then turns violent or against her will. Yes, even with a boyfriend or husband who sees his g/f or wife dressed like that, gets denied, and then flies into a jealous rage!

"We are talking about woman not being AWARE of how an abusive relationship develops with a controlling male and can lead to domestic violence and then onto rape."

How unaware is a woman who got violently assaulted? That's no distinction that matters here. Preventing rape, including rape-by-boyfriend or husband, is dependent on the behavior of the woman who's allowing herself to be vulnerable, either out on the street with provocative dress around strangers, or in the living room in frightened ignorance with a jealous ex-boyfriend. Both of these create vulnerability, whether her awareness leads her to care enough to take action (arming herself while walking downtown streets, leaving her husband, et al) or not.

I know that there's plenty of women who would resent you for suggesting she leave the man she loves because he's a controlling figure and therefore a rape risk. Now you're pointing the finger at men to mitigate a risk that weighs out in the data by preemptively judging a male who never hit or hurt anyone and breaking up the relationship? Is that the benefit your awareness grants your patients?

Responsibility is perpetual in order to be effective, and awareness is only effective if that awareness leads to changes in behavior. And sorry, awareness is a terrible metric by which to determine how pointy our fingers get. I'm not going to point my finger at an aware woman for something bad happening because her love for her husband was more powerful than her awareness of your statistics in influencing her actions.

[odas]

Ok ppl. Here comes the question. Do I have your attention?

[Hasina]

No. ;D

Edited January 4, 2013 by Hasina

[glorybebe]

I'll say this again, ladies. I don't want to have to say it again, but I will if I have to:

If a woman walks down a dark alleyway or a lonely country lane at night on her own dressed in tarty clothing, i.e. a very short skirt which falls just below her nostrils and a see-through boob tube, then she is asking to be raped, just as if someone who is walking down a dark alleyway or a lonely country lane at night with loads of jewellery around their neck is asking to be mugged.

Commonsense dictates, therefore, that it's not wise to walk down a dark alleyway or lonely country lane at night with loads of jewellery around your neck because you are obviously putting yourself at much greater rick of being mugged. As a result, sensible people with a few brain cells between their eyes avoid doing so.

Therefore commonsense should also dictate that if a woman is going on a night out and she is planning on walking home on her own at 3am then it would be wise to wear more normal clothes rather than tarty clothing in order to significantly reduce the risk of rape. And whatever you say, a woman wearing tarty and provocative clothing whilst walking down a lonely street or country lane or dfark alleyway late at night IS putting herself more at risk of being raped.

To most people this is just plain and simple commonsense. However, from what I've been reading on this thread, commonsense is something which seems to be completely and utterly lacking amongst feminists. They come out with stupid comments like "A woman should be able to wear whatever she likes", even though women CAN'T wear whatever they like and even though I should be able to walk down a dark alleyway at 3am with £1000 in my pocket but, using my commonsense, I choose to walk down said alleyway at such a time with little money on me to reduce the chance of being mugged.

And if a woman walks down the street at 3:00 PM in dress pants, dress shirt and high heels and gets raped....it's because the guy is a dick and needs to be put in jail. Why do you go to extremes of time and areas? Most rapes happen in the woman's home while she feels safe and comfortable. Giving these assinine examples really doesn't help to argue your opinion.

[Jinxdom]

The more attention you draw to yourself the more attention you usually get. Good and Bad/wanted and unwanted. It's a universal truth. This people shouldn't get blamed for. IE you are alone with somebody who is in your room. Or being in an alley at night.

Going to locations where your going to draw attention to yourself you need to protect yourself to improve your odds. It's better to have a higher chance then a lower chance but there is still that random factor but nothing is 100%.

This is where people complain about blame.

The only time you can really blame somebody is when the odds are stacked so high then your going to lose.(This is relative to a whole bunch of crap) I.E. blackjack hitting on 20.

People have a hard time dealing with probability.

The person who is wrong is the person who goes against the other person's consent. This goes for everything. Sex, what people wear, what people do. This is what basically makes rapists wrong and the Priest wrong. This is where the trust breaks and the crime is committed. Whoever breaks consent is the scumbag.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Jinxdom

[Mr.United_Nations]

No. ;D

?

[Cradle of Fish]

It's insulting to men as well as women. We aren't uncontrollable beasts all a mere moment away from turning into rapists. A good man will never see a woman in revealing clothing and sexually assault them.

I think what needs to be said instead is that women should strive to not make themselves the target of predators. That includes 'provocative' dress and behavior. To say that they invited it is just wrong.

I don't agree with the paralels of wearing a racist t-shirt. Racism is negative. Dressing to show off your good bits, whether its breasts, legs or backside is a positive affirmation of sexuality(which is a huge part of being human . I dont think a woman has the right to complain if she gets stared at dressed like that, sure, but staring isn't a crime and it isn't a violation. If somebody is rudely staring at you its ok to tell them off or move elsewhere. If you work with them go above their head.

I'm not at all surprised that this is coming from a Catholic. They are about as anti-woman as the worst if Islam. Their very dogma is anti-woman. Who is their most venerated female figure? The Virgin Mary, a woman who not only never had sex but herself was 'immaculately' concieved.

[Yamato]

It's insulting to men as well as women. We aren't uncontrollable beasts all a mere moment away from turning into rapists. A good man will never see a woman in revealing clothing and sexually assault them.

I think what needs to be said instead is that women should strive to not make themselves the target of predators. That includes 'provocative' dress and behavior. To say that they invited it is just wrong.

I don't agree with the paralels of wearing a racist t-shirt. Racism is negative. Dressing to show off your good bits, whether its breasts, legs or backside is a positive affirmation of sexuality(which is a huge part of being human . I dont think a woman has the right to complain if she gets stared at dressed like that, sure, but staring isn't a crime and it isn't a violation. If somebody is rudely staring at you its ok to tell them off or move elsewhere. If you work with them go above their head.

I'm not at all surprised that this is coming from a Catholic. They are about as anti-woman as the worst if Islam. Their very dogma is anti-woman. Who is their most venerated female figure? The Virgin Mary, a woman who not only never had sex but herself was 'immaculately' concieved.

You don't agree with the parallels? Well you don't have to, and they're still parallel. Racism is wrong, and so someone in a racist shirt deserves to get assaulted? Really? But it isn't just about racist t-shirts. It's red bandanas, and jokes about certain types of people, and generally having the wrong appearance in the wrong place at the wrong time. A woman dressed like a whore after midnight downtown in any major city in the US. I've lived in cities, I know what a foolish idea that is, and I'd be scared to death to dare collect the evidence for the effects that has on strange men out on the streets. If I used my g/f as such a guinea pig I'd have to be parked close by with a black belt judo expert with a machine gun in the passenger's seat just to safely collect enough data.

It was probably inevitable for someone to throw the religion wrench in the gears eventually. The Catholic participating in this thread was surprised to hear it coming from a Catholic. And I believe a woman always has a right to complain. Who's the most venerated female figure for a Protestant incidentally?

[Rlyeh]

Rape: Unlawful sexual intercourse with a female without her consent. The unlawful carnal knowledge of a woman by a man forcibly and against her will. The act of sexual intercourse committed by a man with a woman not his wife and without her consent, committed when the woman's resistance is overcome by force or fear, or under other prohibitive conditions.

State v. Lora, 213 Kan. 184, P.2d 1086, 1093.

A male who has sexual intercourse with a female not his wife is guilty of rape if: (a) he compels her to submit by force or by threat of imminent death, serious bodily injury, extreme pain or kidnapping, to be inflicted on anyone; or (b ) he has substantially impaired her power to appraise or control her conduct by administering or employing without her knowledge drugs, intoxicants or other means for the purpose of preventing resistance; or (c ) the female is unconscious; or (d) the female is less than 10 years old.

Model Penal Code § 213.1

Under some statues, crime embraces unnatural as well as natural sexual intercourse; e.g. M.G.L.A. (Mass.) c. 277, § 39.

See also: Assault with intent to commit rape; Carnal abuse; Carnal Knowledge; Fresh complaint rule.

-Black's Law Dictionary by Henry Cambell Black, M.A.; Fifth Edition

(I can go on and on and on, my sister studies law)

Edited January 4, 2013 by Rlyeh

[libstaK]

You've just conceded to my point here I think. You've just "pointed the finger" at women too. Though why do I think that ignorance is going to get a hall pass for some reason.

What's this hall pass stuff? Basically the discussion has turned to where it belongs, empowering women/men by giving them the tools they need to stand their ground without fear and intimidating the protagonist to the point they cannot effectively carry out their criminal intents. The only way the finger would be pointed is if we then entered a paradigm where the world stood around asking "why didn't they stand correctly against the criminal and prevent the crime ".

Star of the Sea, thank you for sharing your experiences in this field, it's very insightful .

At the end of the day Hasina said it best here:

"What is 'provocative clothing'...? Where's the line? What about male rape victims? Your advice for them? Does anyone 'deserve' bad things to happen to them because of what they own or what they wear?"

Yamato, my mention of burqas, was a not a "desperate attempt" at anything, it is an absolute reality for many women, possibly millions in some parts of the world as we speak and what occurs to those who fail to abide in some quarters, beggars belief - yet the "reasoning" is that the woman provoked in every instance what was done to her . The discussion was decidedly swinging toward women behaving and dressing in a modest manner to avoid "sending out the wrong signals" somehow. That particular cultural more is a strawman and needs to be dismantled.

And here

"I think the disconnect comes from putting ourselves in others shoes and then thinking what you would do. People range in intellect, their own personal responsibility, etc. You can rationalize all the self-responsibility you and I want, but when you or I start saying that a 'victim' needs to take responsibility for themselves, then it raises hackles. That's the disconnect I see."

I also believe Arbenol hit the nail on context bang on the head when he said this gem:

"What does it mean 'to dress provocatively'? Sounds like a phrase a man made up. Maybe people need to be more vocal telling men not to rape, rather than telling women how to dress."

Edited January 4, 2013 by libstaK

[Yamato]

What's this hall pass stuff? Basically the discussion has turned to where it belongs, empowering women/men by giving them the tools they need to stand their ground without fear and intimidating the protagonist to the point they cannot effectively carry out their criminal intents. The only way the finger would be pointed is if we then entered a paradigm where the world stood around asking "why didn't they stand correctly against the criminal and prevent the crime ".

Star of the Sea, thank you for sharing your experiences in this field, it's very insightful .

At the end of the day Hasina said it best here:

"What is 'provocative clothing'...? Where's the line? What about male rape victims? Your advice for them? Does anyone 'deserve' bad things to happen to them because of what they own or what they wear?"

Yamato, my mention of burqas, was a not a "desperate attempt" at anything, it is an absolute reality for many women, possibly millions in some parts of the world as we speak and what occurs to those who fail to abide in some quarters, beggars belief - yet the "reasoning" is that the woman provoked in every instance what was done to her . The discussion was decidedly swinging toward women behaving and dressing in a modest manner to avoid "sending out the wrong signals" somehow. That particular cultural more is a strawman and needs to be dismantled.

And here

"I think the disconnect comes from putting ourselves in others shoes and then thinking what you would do. People range in intellect, their own personal responsibility, etc. You can rationalize all the self-responsibility you and I want, but when you or I start saying that a 'victim' needs to take responsibility for themselves, then it raises hackles. That's the disconnect I see."

I also believe Arbenol hit the nail on context bang on the head when he said this gem:

"What does it mean 'to dress provocatively'? Sounds like a phrase a man made up. Maybe people need to be more vocal telling men not to rape, rather than telling women how to dress."

Having a hall pass for blaming the woman for fear, ignorance, or not acting on what she should have been aware of.

I've explained what it means to dress provocatively and who needs to take responsibility for themselves, which is independent of these attempts to somehow constrain my explanation to the victim of a crime.

Provocative dress isn't a female-only concept; a male can dress provocatively too as we've already covered numerous examples of. The statements you think are gems might be the ones loaded with gender bias. People need to be more vocal in telling people not to commit domestic violence of all kinds, rather than telling anyone how to dress except for our children.

[libstaK]

Having a hall pass for blaming the woman for fear, ignorance, or not acting on what she should have been aware of.

I've explained what it means to dress provocatively and who needs to take responsibility for themselves, which is independent of these attempts to somehow constrain my explanation to the victim of a crime.

Provocative dress isn't a female-only concept; a male can dress provocatively too as we've already covered numerous examples of. The statements you think are gems might be the ones loaded with gender bias. People need to be more vocal in telling people not to commit domestic violence of all kinds, rather than telling anyone how to dress except for our children.

I didn't see that blame in the post, that must just be your interpretation - show me where she has blamed the women....

I have referenced men in a few places, contextually the discussion itself was heavily weighted toward man on woman violence, most specifically in the OP by the priest who made the intitial comments regarding provocative dress in women and further by discussions of types of dress that invite sexual thoughts in men smattered throughout the thread by various posters, which has been what I have been predominantly responding to.

In fact you admit you had that focus and yes you did "explain what it means to dress provocatively and who needs to take responsibility for themselves" - the disconnect was not at all apparent between your position toward society at large and the position of the victim of a crime, else there would have been no debate.

Thanks for the debate btw Yamato, this is an important topic and alot of diverse views have been aired.

[Hasina]

The is one of the biggest problems with rape laws, it doesn't provide the protection for male victims or women who are raped by their spouses.

[Yamato]

I didn't see that blame in the post, that must just be your interpretation - show me where she has blamed the women....

I have referenced men in a few places, contextually the discussion itself was heavily weighted toward man on woman violence, most specifically in the OP by the priest who made the intitial comments regarding provocative dress in women and further by discussions of types of dress that invite sexual thoughts in men smattered throughout the thread by various posters, which has been what I have been predominantly responding to.

In fact you admit you had that focus and yes you did "explain what it means to dress provocatively and who needs to take responsibility for themselves" - the disconnect was not at all apparent between your position toward society at large and the position of the victim of a crime, else there would have been no debate.

Thanks for the debate btw Yamato, this is an important topic and alot of diverse views have been aired.

I bolded where she did it in the reply I first called it out on. Go take another look. And I didn't see the blame in my post either, to my point. I never even used the word blame until all this "blame the victim" bit was directed at me. Either we're both pointing fingers or neither of us are; what we're pointing them for doesn't matter if pointing them at a woman generally is equivalent to blaming a rape victim in particular! It's further inaccurate to do this by the fact that Hasina brought up, men get raped too. She Star of the Sea also said awareness is the difference that matters. But a lack of awareness isn't a prerequisite to any manner of innocence here. A victim of rape isn't to be blamed for rape, period. Even if she's WELL AWARE of the alleged danger she's in from her jealous control-freak boyfriend.

I provided examples of male provocative dress I think in my first post and was immediately identified as somehow asking for it. When I really couldn't have asked for a better rush to judgment. Of course I couldn't have just thrown a friend's shirt on in the dark without even looking at it. Nope I was guilty for making myself a victim, I was obviously stupid and guilty, and I think my urethra gave me away.

Good debate libstaK. You know I'm still crazy about you even if it's unrequited after all this.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Yamato

[me-wonders]

It's insulting to men as well as women. We aren't uncontrollable beasts all a mere moment away from turning into rapists. A good man will never see a woman in revealing clothing and sexually assault them.

I think what needs to be said instead is that women should strive to not make themselves the target of predators. That includes 'provocative' dress and behavior. To say that they invited it is just wrong.

I don't agree with the paralels of wearing a racist t-shirt. Racism is negative. Dressing to show off your good bits, whether its breasts, legs or backside is a positive affirmation of sexuality(which is a huge part of being human . I dont think a woman has the right to complain if she gets stared at dressed like that, sure, but staring isn't a crime and it isn't a violation. If somebody is rudely staring at you its ok to tell them off or move elsewhere. If you work with them go above their head.

I'm not at all surprised that this is coming from a Catholic. They are about as anti-woman as the worst if Islam. Their very dogma is anti-woman. Who is their most venerated female figure? The Virgin Mary, a woman who not only never had sex but herself was 'immaculately' concieved.

I think you took that too far. Mother Mary is a Christianized pagan goddess representing all that is good of the feminine force, and I think worshiping her has a positive effect on humanity. I think women's lib is the enemy of the feminine force and motherhood, because it made being feminine taboo.

Edited January 4, 2013 by me-wonders

[me-wonders]

I bolded where she did it in the reply I first called it out on. Go take another look. And I didn't see the blame in my post either, to my point. I never even used the word blame until all this "blame the victim" bit was directed at me. Either we're both pointing fingers or neither of us are; what we're pointing them for doesn't matter if pointing them at a woman generally is equivalent to blaming a rape victim in particular! It's further inaccurate to do this by the fact that Hasina brought up, men get raped too. She Star of the Sea also said awareness is the difference that matters. But a lack of awareness isn't a prerequisite to any manner of innocence here. A victim of rape isn't to be blamed for rape, period. Even if she's WELL AWARE of the alleged danger she's in from her jealous control-freak boyfriend.

I provided examples of male provocative dress I think in my first post and was immediately identified as somehow asking for it. When I really couldn't have asked for a better rush to judgment. Of course I couldn't have just thrown a friend's shirt on in the dark without even looking at it. Nope I was guilty for making myself a victim, I was obviously stupid and guilty, and I think my urethra gave me away.

Good debate libstaK. You know I'm still crazy about you even if it's unrequited after all this.

I usually regret when I get too personal, but when my daughter lied to me and broke all the rules a girl needs to protect herself, and wound up in a gang rape situation involving college males and under age females, who got her there? I am stressing the importance of modesty and following rules for our protection, because bad things can happen and we do need to protect ourselves. Now blame? That is such an awful word! The young folks didn't realize where things would go when they lied to parents, and lied to the college students about not having a safe to go, and everyone got drunk. A lot of regretful things happen as a result of getting drunk from rape to murder. I feel terribly sorry for all who get caught up a flow of events that becomes tragic. What can we do, expect try to get our young to understand the rules are made for their protection? We can not protect them. Only when they accept the rules as their own rules, are they protected. Problem is, their brains are not fully developed and they just don't get it. Perhaps the blame is ours for not being more protective of them?