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Proclus

Aristotle against existence of Atlantis? No!

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Already 2011 Jason Colavito published an article www.jasoncolavito.com/.../...aristotle-on-atlantis which cast doubts on the common scientific assumption that Aristotle did explicitly speak out against the existence of Plato's Atlantis. But already 2010 this wrong assumption was disproved on a scientific level, what Jason Colavito did not seem to know.

This book from 2010 is now available in English, see a recent review here:

http://atlantipedia....and-atlantis-n/

Who brought the mistake into life? How could it creep into the scientific literature? Which scientists silently opposed? And what did Aristotle really think on Atlantis? What did Aristotle say on ancient geography? And ... Atlantis? If Aristotle had a different opinion than we thought we have a lot of to discuss ...

One thing is sure: We are one step closer to solve the riddle.

A rare event in the history of Atlantis research.

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It doesn't matter what Aristotle thought of Atlantis. It doesn't exist.

Edit: And welcome to the forums. Brace yourself...

Edited by Imaginarynumber1
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It doesn't matter what Aristotle thought of Atlantis. It doesn't exist.

Edit: And welcome to the forums. Brace yourself...

How can you be sure of that?

PS. Welcome to the site as a member, Proklus :tu:

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I'm not sure if it ever existed or not, only time will tell.

WelcomeToTheForum.gif

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How can you be sure of that?

PS. Welcome to the site as a member, Proklus :tu:

The geology of the location relevant to the Atlantis story doesn't support its existance.

Genetics doesn't support its existance.

The technological capabilities of the times and relevant area don't support its existance.

And the list goes on.

Welcome to UM Proklus.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt
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What Aristotele said about it? :blink:

Welcome to UM! ^_^

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Thanks to all for the warm welcome to this forum!

The geology of the location relevant to the Atlantis story doesn't support its existance.

Genetics doesn't support its existance.

The technological capabilities of the times and relevant area don't support its existance.

And the list goes on.

Ah well, if you take it all literally, yes. But is it reasonable to take it all literally?

We know e.g. of Herodotus' reports on Egypt that he screwed up some things unintentionally. An Egypt precisly as Herodotus described it did never exist. But of course we know: Egypt did exist. Or think of the bible: Neither is it all wrong, nor all true, what is written there. There is a kernel of truth in ancient texts, and it is our task to figure out, what this was.

And if Aristotle was more in favour of Plato's Atlantis, then we could be lucky to have some more hints than we thought. I think it matters what Aristotle thought.

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Thanks to all for the warm welcome to this forum!

Ah well, if you take it all literally, yes. But is it reasonable to take it all literally?

We know e.g. of Herodotus' reports on Egypt that he screwed up some things unintentionally. An Egypt precisly as Herodotus described it did never exist. But of course we know: Egypt did exist. Or think of the bible: Neither is it all wrong, nor all true, what is written there. There is a kernel of truth in ancient texts, and it is our task to figure out, what this was.

And if Aristotle was more in favour of Plato's Atlantis, then we could be lucky to have some more hints than we thought. I think it matters what Aristotle thought.

Stick around long enough and you'll answer your own question, after you see how many really DO take it literally.

cormac

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I think it matters what Aristotle thought.

How do you know what he thought?

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Stick around long enough and you'll answer your own question, after you see how many really DO take it literally.

Let us try to enlight the crackpots, cormac :-)

How do you know what he thought?

Good question, the L!

The argument is basically the following: Since there is no explicit statement by Aristotle (Strabo 2.3.6 is disproved, see above), there are only indirect ways to find out. Aristotle talks of land west of Gibraltar, he talks of Elephants at the extreme west and east suggesting a land bridge not existing any more. He talks of the mud west of Gibraltar. He never disproves Plato's Atlantis. Aristotle's disciples talk positivley of Plato's Atlantis. So all in all there is a very good chance that Aristotle was more in favour of an existence of Atlantis.

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Let us try to enlight the crackpots, cormac :-)

Good question, the L!

The argument is basically the following: Since there is no explicit statement by Aristotle (Strabo 2.3.6 is disproved, see above), there are only indirect ways to find out. Aristotle talks of land west of Gibraltar, he talks of Elephants at the extreme west and east suggesting a land bridge not existing any more. He talks of the mud west of Gibraltar. He never disproves Plato's Atlantis. Aristotle's disciples talk positivley of Plato's Atlantis. So all in all there is a very good chance that Aristotle was more in favour of an existence of Atlantis.

Let me know how that works for you. Given enough time you'll see just how many ways people are willing to bend, twist, distort and reinterpret Plato's tale of Atlantis all to rationalize it into existance. The only enlightenment for believers occurs when one directs a flashlight into one ear and sees a light coming out of the other one. :D

cormac

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Let me know how that works for you. Given enough time you'll see just how many ways people are willing to bend, twist, distort and reinterpret Plato's tale of Atlantis all to rationalize it into existance. The only enlightenment for believers occurs when one directs a flashlight into one ear and sees a light coming out of the other one. :D

Maybe we should teach them a lesson in historical-critical method?

I cannot see how it makes sense to discuss things otherwise.

The bending, twisting, distorting could make sense, if they had good reasons for this,

such as the historical context, typical distortions of traditon, etc.

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The geology of the location relevant to the Atlantis story doesn't support its existance.

Genetics doesn't support its existance.

The technological capabilities of the times and relevant area don't support its existance.

And the list goes on.

Welcome to UM Proklus.

cormac

As far as i know, technology in ancient times were not so underdeveloped as we think it was. So, i have some doubts about that part. But, i really have no idea about the other two things you mentioned, so i'll just go on with them
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As far as i know, technology in ancient times were not so underdeveloped as we think it was. So, i have some doubts about that part. But, i really have no idea about the other two things you mentioned, so i'll just go on with them

Just as a couple of examples, there's not a shred of evidence for the existance of either triremes or chariots circa 9600 BC. Pretty much everything that Plato mentions in regards to Atlantis are Bronze Age technologies at best.

cormac

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Just as a couple of examples, there's not a shred of evidence for the existance of either triremes or chariots circa 9600 BC. Pretty much everything that Plato mentions in regards to Atlantis are Bronze Age technologies at best.

Good examples. Herodotus talks also of triremes in Egypt where there surely were none. "Trireme" was simply a common word to specify any warrior ship. The other thing is true: 9600 BC cannot be, but this is easily explained: As Herodotus sees the age of Egypt to be 11340 years (and not the approx. 3000 years we know today) Plato's datings fit into the same range of error. Since Atlantis attacked Egypt it could be any date after 3000 BC, so Bronze Age is a good and reasonable try.

Nothing is proven by this all, but it disproves the disproof :-)

Edited by Proclus

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Just as a couple of examples, there's not a shred of evidence for the existance of either triremes or chariots circa 9600 BC. Pretty much everything that Plato mentions in regards to Atlantis are Bronze Age technologies at best.

cormac

Maybe some of that evidence was destroyed. We can't really know for sure!
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Maybe some of that evidence was destroyed. We can't really know for sure!

I would say this is the more unlikely possibility.

See above my answer on cormac's posting,

it provides the more reasonable way of interpretation.

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Maybe some of that evidence was destroyed. We can't really know for sure!

I wouldn't count on it considering the earliest evidence for boats even remotely near the area, in the form of canoes, doesn't occur until circa 6000 BC and the earliest evidence for domesticated horses coming later at circa 3500 BC. Both post-date the claim for Atlantis by several thousand years.

cormac

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It doesn't matter what Aristotle thought of Atlantis. It doesn't exist.

Edit: And welcome to the forums. Brace yourself...

We assume since nothing we found that we're seeing is screaming the name "Atlantis" on it. If it doesn't matter what Aristotle thinks it doesn't matter what anyone thinks. I'm unsure Platos Atlantis existed, but I don't think it did. I'm pretty sure it didn't. Things "disappear" and Humans always forget history no matter how important you and me would take it.\

Using the word "Trireme" to talk about a warship is true. Definitions do not always help. The thesaurus will help a lot more.

Edited by kampz

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We assume since nothing we found that we're seeing is screaming the name "Atlantis" on it. If it doesn't matter what Aristotle thinks it doesn't matter what anyone thinks. I'm unsure Platos Atlantis existed, but I don't think it did. I'm pretty sure it didn't. Things "disappear" and Humans always forget history no matter how important you and me would take it.

We don't have to assume anything. Whether one looks at the claim archaeologically, geologically, technologically or genetically all four avenues support each other in saying Atlantis didn't exist.

cormac

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We assume and there's a way that time will never tell us. Unless I assume which I do that an extra-terrestrial, something and/or someone can tell me. I agree with you, but it's one of those 99.9% things.

Edited by kampz

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We assume since nothing we found that we're seeing is screaming the name "Atlantis" on it. If it doesn't matter what Aristotle thinks it doesn't matter what anyone thinks. I'm unsure Platos Atlantis existed, but I don't think it did. I'm pretty sure it didn't. Things "disappear" and Humans always forget history no matter how important you and me would take it.\

Using the word "Trireme" to talk about a warship is true. Definitions do not always help. The thesaurus will help a lot more.

Nothing about Atlantis is supported in history nor has ever been found. There is no reason to assume that it was ever real. A giant advanced civilization exists yet is only mention twice by a Greek 9000 years later? They exist in no myth, no art, no nothing.

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I agree and I still stand by everything else I said in this thread.

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I wouldn't count on it considering the earliest evidence for boats even remotely near the area, in the form of canoes, doesn't occur until circa 6000 BC and the earliest evidence for domesticated horses coming later at circa 3500 BC. Both post-date the claim for Atlantis by several thousand years.

cormac

Thats why we in history say earliest evidence we have. That doesnt mean that horse wasnt domesticated earlier then we have evidence.

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Good question, the L!

The argument is basically the following: Since there is no explicit statement by Aristotle (Strabo 2.3.6 is disproved, see above), there are only indirect ways to find out. Aristotle talks of land west of Gibraltar, he talks of Elephants at the extreme west and east suggesting a land bridge not existing any more. He talks of the mud west of Gibraltar. He never disproves Plato's Atlantis. Aristotle's disciples talk positivley of Plato's Atlantis. So all in all there is a very good chance that Aristotle was more in favour of an existence of Atlantis.

Can you give link about land west of Gibraltar and elephants?

Maybe he didnt say nothing against it and nothing which confirm it because most of Arisotele work is lost. We have just notes of him. Not works as books.

Edited by the L

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