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me-wonders

economic crisis and civilization

22 posts in this topic

This may not seem the place to put this subject, but I just took a little blue pill. That means my anxiety alarm is going off. In a few minutes I should be as mellow as a cat lazying in the sun. I have done this, because the reality of the economic turn down has hit home. It took awhile for budget cuts to reach my family. We all thought my daughter's job in a drug and alcohol detox center that serves most of Oregon, would be safe. She is now applying for unemployment, because of budget cuts to a place where people could die without treatment.

This comes after closing down half our jail. We are now putting tracking bracelets on people sentenced to jail, and they are being housed in our mission, the charity place for homeless people. Some of those released from jail immediately committed another crime. In general, the fear of punishment is not a strong force in preventing crime, because everyone knows jail time is very short.

We might see major cuts to the food assistant program. Life depends on 3 things, water, food and shelter. I don't think there is a city in the US with adequate housing for low income and no income people, and most have laws preventing people from sheltering themselves in tents on public property. A large portion of our population can not adequately meet these needs, because they are out of work. If we cut food stamps, how much worse will things be?

My head is screaming because we are not gathering adequate information and we are not working with reality. This is what I really need help with. I think we need to greatly improve our information gathering, and the media's willingness to keep us informed, as we face major changes in employment and housing, and possibly other measures of welfare. Any advise in what questions need to be ask, and how to go about surveying people?

Edited by me-wonders
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This kind of thing is happening all over the industrialised world, me-wonders, and it's going to escalate. Just thank your lucky stars you live in a country that allows you to defend yourselves!

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China is doing great though, but then that's because they are producing everything for us. LOL

Half of me wants this to get better for obvious reasons. The other half of me wants it to get worse so people really see who runs the world and realises we are slaves to a minority so we can start our revolution........

It makes me laugh how it's actually a fact that a few people run the world and we all stand by and let it happen and let them enslave us in debt.

This kind of thing is happening all over the industrialised world, me-wonders, and it's going to escalate. Just thank your lucky stars you live in a country that allows you to defend yourselves!

Well we are allowed Cross bows.... lol

Also i have a decent arsenal of melee weaponry. lol

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I think we need to greatly improve our information gathering, and the media's willingness to keep us informed, as we face major changes in employment and housing, and possibly other measures of welfare. Any advise in what questions need to be ask, and how to go about surveying people?

I sympathize with you me-wonders. It is truly sad that a country as wealthy as the US is closing the types of programs your daughter worked at. I wouldn´t hold your breath waiting to truly inform you. Pure propaganda IMO. You really need to dig and read between the lines to get a better understanding of what is happening and why.

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They close jails, rehab and detox programs and those to help people with mental problems yet they wonder why the mass murders.

China may be doing great but don't think the people working themselves to death do.

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They close jails, rehab and detox programs and those to help people with mental problems yet they wonder why the mass murders.

China may be doing great but don't think the people working themselves to death do.

I was more making the point that corporate companies make money from outsourcing to china but our economy suffers greatly for it.

:td:

Your other point is completely spot on, that is exactly why these shootings etc are happening.

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China is doing great though, but then that's because they are producing everything for us. LOL

Half of me wants this to get better for obvious reasons. The other half of me wants it to get worse so people really see who runs the world and realises we are slaves to a minority so we can start our revolution........

It makes me laugh how it's actually a fact that a few people run the world and we all stand by and let it happen and let them enslave us in debt.

Well we are allowed Cross bows.... lol

Also i have a decent arsenal of melee weaponry. lol

Okay, it looks like you are willing to think on the subject. We have waged a very successful war against communism, but who owns the land, and do human beings have any right to the essentials of life? Who makes the rules and who has the power to enforce them?

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I sympathize with you me-wonders. It is truly sad that a country as wealthy as the US is closing the types of programs your daughter worked at. I wouldn´t hold your breath waiting to truly inform you. Pure propaganda IMO. You really need to dig and read between the lines to get a better understanding of what is happening and why.

Read what? This is no time to play coy. Democracy means power of the people. For the people to have power they must have shared information and social agreements. What is the information we need, and what are the agreements we must make?

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Okay, it looks like you are willing to think on the subject. We have waged a very successful war against communism, but who owns the land, and do human beings have any right to the essentials of life? Who makes the rules and who has the power to enforce them?

Nature owns the land, pagans/wiccans worked that fact out thousands of years ago. Sadly greedy people want to claim it all then make money from it.

Communism was a load of propaganda, just like terrorism.

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DERIVATIVES: The Unregulated Global Casino for Banks

Pick something of value, make bets on the future values of "something," add contract and you have a derivative.

Banks make massive profits on derivatives, and when the bubble bursts chances are the tax payer will end up with the bill.

This visualizes the total coverage for derivatives (notional). Similar to insurance company's total coverage for all cars.

Edited by NiteMarcher
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There is nothing to be done. Our system is not based on sound principals therefore everything that our system supports will evenchually fail.

Only after I lyes in ruins can it be built with a better foundation.

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Okay, it looks like you are willing to think on the subject. We have waged a very successful war against communism, but who owns the land, and do human beings have any right to the essentials of life? Who makes the rules and who has the power to enforce them?

“Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime” Aristotle 384-322bc

Hi MW, Sorry to hear your new year has started off on such a sad note. It’s not just the ordinary people of the US that is feeling pain, the greed of the upper classes is now rampant across the world. They own the media and the politicians. We are told we have no money for the poor ( who the media tell us are lazy scum) but hey NO problem when it comes to WAR. As Martin luther king said The US has a spiritual poverty. When will people see we have only one world and we are ALL human beings. Here's an article from the UK press and the same thing is happening here aswell the hand of corporate greed slithers across the globe.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy

‘The poverty of our century is unlike that of any other: it is not, as poverty was before, the result of natural scarcity, but a set of priorities imposed on the rest of the world by the Rich. Consequently, the modern poor are not pitied, but written off as trash’. John Berger

Edited by sutemi
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I am wanting to expand this topic. I do not use credit, and really do not understand it. I am from the old school of saving until you can afford something. Now I read this explanation of electric companies being afraid of their credit being down graded and I think what the heck? Is this credit grading something that has driven economies around the world off the cliff? I mean wow, what a great con to get everyone to believe they are better off if they are in debt, and therefore, everyone intentionally staying in debt, and forever, owing the banks. Isn't something seriously wrong with this?

http://www.newser.com/story/160295/as-us-electricity-use-stalls-utilities-scramble.html?utm_source=part&utm_medium=united&utm_campaign=rss_3_2

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“Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime” Aristotle 384-322bc

Hi MW, Sorry to hear your new year has started off on such a sad note. It’s not just the ordinary people of the US that is feeling pain, the greed of the upper classes is now rampant across the world. They own the media and the politicians. We are told we have no money for the poor ( who the media tell us are lazy scum) but hey NO problem when it comes to WAR. As Martin luther king said The US has a spiritual poverty. When will people see we have only one world and we are ALL human beings. Here's an article from the UK press and the same thing is happening here aswell the hand of corporate greed slithers across the globe.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy

‘The poverty of our century is unlike that of any other: it is not, as poverty was before, the result of natural scarcity, but a set of priorities imposed on the rest of the world by the Rich. Consequently, the modern poor are not pitied, but written off as trash’. John Berger

My God, you gave us vitally important information. That takes this thread to a whole new level. Are we still questioning why the Germans did not stop NAZI Germany?

We need a revolution. It is best if it is not violent. However, I don't think the average person has the strength of will to, refuse to play the banks games, and to refuse to do business with companies that are playing bankers game. Between the bankers, CIA and FBI, operating with local police forces, we may be in much deeper trouble than we realized?

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This may not seem the place to put this subject, but I just took a little blue pill. That means my anxiety alarm is going off. In a few minutes I should be as mellow as a cat lazying in the sun. I have done this, because the reality of the economic turn down has hit home. It took awhile for budget cuts to reach my family. We all thought my daughter's job in a drug and alcohol detox center that serves most of Oregon, would be safe. She is now applying for unemployment, because of budget cuts to a place where people could die without treatment.

This comes after closing down half our jail. We are now putting tracking bracelets on people sentenced to jail, and they are being housed in our mission, the charity place for homeless people. Some of those released from jail immediately committed another crime. In general, the fear of punishment is not a strong force in preventing crime, because everyone knows jail time is very short.

We might see major cuts to the food assistant program. Life depends on 3 things, water, food and shelter. I don't think there is a city in the US with adequate housing for low income and no income people, and most have laws preventing people from sheltering themselves in tents on public property. A large portion of our population can not adequately meet these needs, because they are out of work. If we cut food stamps, how much worse will things be?

My head is screaming because we are not gathering adequate information and we are not working with reality. This is what I really need help with. I think we need to greatly improve our information gathering, and the media's willingness to keep us informed, as we face major changes in employment and housing, and possibly other measures of welfare. Any advise in what questions need to be ask, and how to go about surveying people?

I think the information is out there. Have you thought about joining some kind of organization that advocates for people, and educates? Group action can be very powerful. My heart goes out to you. Things will get better economically, but until then, life is difficult for many people. It's strange to me that some people here in the US want to cut the very essential benefits like food stamps & welfare that allow people to survive, in a time where it's most needed.

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I think the information is out there. Have you thought about joining some kind of organization that advocates for people, and educates? Group action can be very powerful. My heart goes out to you. Things will get better economically, but until then, life is difficult for many people. It's strange to me that some people here in the US want to cut the very essential benefits like food stamps & welfare that allow people to survive, in a time where it's most needed.

As soon as I mention the 1958 National Defense Education, no one wants anything to do with me. Public education is like a genii in a bottle. The wish is the defined purpose and the students are the genii. We changed in the wish in 1958 and we are now the Military Industrial Complex (New World Order) we defended our democracy against. When I say things people move my threads to the conspiracy forum. One forum, completely different from this one, drove me out like a pack of wolves, with a moderator who said I wasn't allowed to speak of education. People do not want to hear what I am saying, and treat me like a nut case they want to avoid. It is impossible to get people to discuss the change in bureaucratic order or the change in public education. This forum is better than most. It is more tolerant and therefore more can be said, but God forbid if someone should say anything about the importance of freedom speech. Immediately mods get defensive, and everyone jumps in to inform me, that these forums are privately owned. You would not believe how long I have been at this, and how unpleasant it has been. I repeat, this forum has been the most tolerant and I seem to be having luck in discussions of economics. The mods here are more tolerant, and there are plenty of well informed people here.

Bottom line, my life has been focused on raising awareness for several years. Trust me, you do not walk in school and try to talk about anything. You do not call the school board, or the teachers union, and get good a response to a desire to talk about such things. Our elected representatives are too busy to discuss the change in public education and the economic ramifications. I don't know where to turn? I am doing better here than anywhere else, because some of you folks know more than I do about the different pieces.

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I am wanting to expand this topic. I do not use credit, and really do not understand it. I am from the old school of saving until you can afford something. Now I read this explanation of electric companies being afraid of their credit being down graded and I think what the heck? Is this credit grading something that has driven economies around the world off the cliff? I mean wow, what a great con to get everyone to believe they are better off if they are in debt, and therefore, everyone intentionally staying in debt, and forever, owing the banks. Isn't something seriously wrong with this?

http://www.newser.com/story/160295/as-us-electricity-use-stalls-utilities-scramble.html?utm_source=part&utm_medium=united&utm_campaign=rss_3_2

I have a controversial guard against being in debt for young people. I tell them the second they turn 18 to go get a credit card Max it out and don't pay. Then they will never have to worry about being in debt and will avoid most of the modern stressors, force them to save when they want something, and overall live a better life.

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I have a controversial guard against being in debt for young people. I tell them the second they turn 18 to go get a credit card Max it out and don't pay. Then they will never have to worry about being in debt and will avoid most of the modern stressors, force them to save when they want something, and overall live a better life.

That is actually kind of brilliant. Wish somebody would of told my ass that back when I was 18.

The problem isn't wholly the federal government though. Some people do get involved to try to make a change for the better. It just takes time. People have some ungodly fear of government when in reality they should be more worried about the people who control the money. If people did that then we wouldn't be so bad off and have something to fight the corruption of the system in our favor. People need to not fear the system but learn it and use that knowledge to protect themselves(Protect not attack). In the hands of the majority, a democratic government is truly the best weapon to do so(the right to bear arms comes to mind).

You start with one person, you get many people to agree and follow that one person, you get enough things will change. It just takes time. The people who have the most and keep it... have patience. Something the average person seems to lack these days.

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I have a controversial guard against being in debt for young people. I tell them the second they turn 18 to go get a credit card Max it out and don't pay. Then they will never have to worry about being in debt and will avoid most of the modern stressors, force them to save when they want something, and overall live a better life.

I am not sure I follow your logic. Please explain further? My daughter in law somehow got $68,000 worth of credit which is enabling her to live on a credit card, without a job. This blows my mind! I remember not being able to get credit because I didn't earn enough. Now someone with no job can have credit? How is that suppose to work?

More curious is the logic of forcing businesses to operate in debt, so they maintain a good credit rating. Then when their industry collapses because they have not set aside a part of their profits to cover cost, the government bails them out. Isn't this insane?

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I'm still trying to digest which of these titles I fall under:

American Citizen, or U.S. citizen?

There appears to be general misunderstanding by people in general as to the difference between a natural person and an artificial person. Perhaps this document will explain that difference.

John Joseph Smith, is a natural, flesh and blood, person, created by God.

JOHN JOSEPH SMITH, is a U.S. corporate artificial person, U.S. citizen, created by the government.

In basic English grammar, a name spelled in upper and lower case, such as John Joseph Smith, is indicative of a flesh and blood man, a natural person.

Person
.
In general usage,
a
human being
(i.e. natural person)
, though by statute term may include labor organizations, partnerships, associations,
corporations, legal representatives
, trustees, trustees in bankruptcy, or receivers.
Black's Law Dictionary 6th Ed.

On the other hand, a name spelled in all caps, such as JOHN JOSEPH SMITH, is indicative of an artificial person.

Artificial persons
.
Persons created and devised by human laws
for the purposes of society and government,
as distinguished from natural persons.
Corporations are examples of artificial persons.
Black's 6th Ed.

U.S. v. Anthony 24 Fed. 829 (1873)
"The term resident and citizen of the United States is distinguished from a Citizen of one of the several states, in that the former is a special class of citizen created by Congress."

The "United States" is defined in Title 28 USC Sec. 3002(15)(A) as a "Federal corporation".

It is also a municipal corporation.

Municipal.
In narrower, more common, sense, it means pertaining to a local governmental unit, commonly, a city or town or other governmental unit.
In its broader sense, it means pertaining to the public or governmental affairs of a state or nation or of a people.
Black's Law Dictionary 6th Ed.

So the federal corporation United States, that pertains to the public affairs of a people, would be a municipal corporation.The federal government pertains to the affairs of its sovereign people.

Municipal corporation
.
A body corporate consisting of the inhabitants
of a designated area
created by the legislature
with or without the consent of such inhabitants for governmental purposes . . .

A municipal corporation has a dual character, the one public and the other private, and exercises corresponding twofold functions and duties -- one class consisting of those acts performed by it in the exercise of delegated sovereign powers for benefit of people generally, as arm of the state, enforcing general laws made in pursuance of general policy of the state, and the other consisting of acts done in exercise of power of the municipal corporation for its own benefit, or for the benefit of its citizens alone, or
citizens of the municipal corporation
and its immediate locality.
Black's 6th Ed.

A municipal corporation is an artificial person, as shown above, and consists of the general inhabitants called citizens, and these artificial persons (citizens) were created by the legislature, not by God. A corporation can be a citizen itself, and that corporation can have its own citizens. A corporation also has it's own officers. When a corporation is dissolved, then the officers of that corporation no longer exist. A government has it's own citizens and employees. When that government is dissolved, then those citizens also cease to exist, since both officers and citizens of a corporation are both artificial persons.

Corporate citizen.
Corporate status
in the state of incorporation . . .
Black's 6th Ed.

A municipal corporation in its broader sense, such as the United States, consists of the inhabitants (U.S. citizens) of a designated area (federal United States). And a corporation can through its legislative branch create artificial persons, who are termed citizens of the municipal corporation. Can an artificial person create a flesh and blood natural man? Can the creator create a being superior to itself? Or can an artificial person only create (make) another artificial person?

I claim that when the municipal corporation United States, creates a citizen through legislative act, that citizen is then a corporate U.S. citizen. That corporate citizen's name is spelled in all capital letters, to indicate that it is an artificial person, as distinguished from a natural person whose name is spelled in upper and lower case letters. That corporate citizen is subject to its creator, the U.S. government, and is subject to its exclusive jurisdiction.

Constitution of the United States of America

14th
Amendment.
Section 1. All
persons
born or
naturalized
in the United States
and
subject to the jurisdiction thereof,
are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the
privileges
and immunities
of citizens of the United States; nor shall any States deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

A citizen of the United States is a corporate citizen, with corporate status, created by the corporation called United States, and is acting as their agent for the purpose of collecting revenue. This citizen has only privileges and immunities under the 14th Amendment. A natural person has inalienable rights, secured by the Constitution. A person with corporate status, would have corporate income.

COLLECTIVE ENTITY RULE

Brasswell
v
. United States 487 U.S. 99 (1988)
This doctrine - known as the
collective entity
rule- has a lengthy and distinguished pedigree.

What is a "collective entity"? A collective entity is simply a corporate entity. Since the status of U.S. citizen can be created by naturalization let's see what naturalization is, and determine if a U.S. citizen is part of a collective entity.

Naturalization
.
The process by which a
person
acquires nationality
after birth
and becomes entitled to the
privileges of U.S. citizenship
. In the United States
collective
naturalization occurs when
designated groups
are
made
citizens by treaty (as Louisiana Purchase), or
by a law of Congress
(as in annexation of Texas and Hawaii).
Black's 6th Ed.

Person
.
Scope and delineation of term necessary for determining to whom Fourteenth Amendment of Constitution affords protections since this Amendment expressly applies to "person".

Let's review the definition of artificial person.

Artificial persons.
Persons
created
and devised
by human laws
for the purposes of society and government,
as distinguished from natural persons.
Corporations are examples of artificial persons.
Black's 6th Ed.

The 14th Amendment applies to "persons", and person in legal parlance means an artificial person, in distinction from a natural person. "Collective" "naturalization occurs when designated groups"(inhabitants) "are made (created) citizens by a law of Congress". These artificial persons were "created and devised by human laws (14th Amendment U.S. citizen) for the (revenue) purposes of society and government", and have their names spelled in all capital letters. These designated groups are "made" or created corporate citizens/employees and are distinguished from natural persons.

A natural person, with his named spelled in upper and lower case letters, has inalienable rights, and is NOT a corporate U.S. citizen. An artificial person, and corporate citizen of the United States, has his name spelled in all capital letters. A natural person cannot be an artificial person at the same time.

The theme of the collective entity rule states:

Brasswell
v
.
United States 487 U.S. 99 (1988) quoting, United States v. White 322 U.S. 694 (1944)
But individuals,
when acting as representatives
of a collective group, cannot be said to be exercising their personal rights and duties, nor be entitled to their purely personal privileges. Rather
they assume
the rights, duties and privileges of the artificial entity or association of which they are
agents
or officers and they are bound by its obligations.

Under the collective entity rule, if John Joseph Smith contracted to be a representative or agent of the corporate citizen JOHN JOSEPH SMITH, then he would not be able to exercise his inalienable rights, which are his personal rights. John Joseph Smith (American Citizen) is contracting to be the agent of JOHN JOSEPH SMITH (U.S. citizen), thereby waiving his inalienable rights.

After the birth of John Joseph Smith, a new artificial person was created (JOHN JOSEPH SMITH), by the 14th Amendment, under the collective entity rule, and was naturalized as a corporate citizen of the United States. This did not destroy the natural person, but simply created a second separate legal entity, a legal fiction, artificial person. This legal fiction was created as an agent (U.S. citizen) of the corporate U.S. government to engage in commerce and collect revenue for the governments, federal, state, and local. You contracted to represent this artificial perosn, thereby waiving your inalienable rights.

A sovereign flesh and blood person is an American Citizen.

A Corporate U.S. citizen is an artificial person and is a government agent/employee.

WHICH ONE ARE YOU?

Edited by NiteMarcher
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I am not sure I follow your logic. Please explain further? My daughter in law somehow got $68,000 worth of credit which is enabling her to live on a credit card, without a job. This blows my mind! I remember not being able to get credit because I didn't earn enough. Now someone with no job can have credit? How is that suppose to work?

More curious is the logic of forcing businesses to operate in debt, so they maintain a good credit rating. Then when their industry collapses because they have not set aside a part of their profits to cover cost, the government bails them out. Isn't this insane?

It's pretty much based on the fact that you can't make something out of nothing and nothing is really negative. (not conceptually though unless you are Neo in the Matrix or some type of God type being, that's the problem) . IE you going backwards 3 feet isn't really -3 feet it's actually 3 feet. So when you own something you actually have something. Problem is that people like to collect and try to bring that debt to 0.

So it actually isn't all that insane.

say you owe somebody 50 bucks and in all of creation there is only 50 bucks available, and they want 65 bucks back because it's only fair right? How are you going to square your debt? 50 - 65 = -15 What you have on paper is different from what what you actually have. (You have nothing). On paper though you are still worth 15 bucks. (This is how slaves are born).

The crappy game of hot potato that I said in another post.

Which is pretty much insane.

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The americans gave up as soon as it addopted the fedral reserve as a banking system. So much for freedom.

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