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Proclus

Model for Atlantis found?

33 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Recently a somewhat forgotten scientific invention hypothesis on Plato's Atlantis written by Prof. Gunnar Rudberg was dug out and brought into the English language for the first time. It still can keep up with current invention hypotheses ... or maybe even more: It casts light on some aspects current invention hypotheses seem to neglect (why?! oohoouuuhooohuaahuaahuaa!).

Maybe it's even closer to the core of Plato's idea with Atlantis than all the rest?

But jugde for yourself:

Syracuse was the place where Plato tried to approach his ideal state in reality - and failed. Indeed, Syracuse shares many similarities with Plato's Atlantis: Like Atlantis, it was situated on a large and fertile island in the west, a city of abundant wealth and power. As in Atlantis, the ruler's castle and magnificent temples were gathered on a small island. As in Atlantis, there were several harbors, quarries and many walls encircling the city. And like Atlantis, Syracuse waged war with Athens.

... there is even a sea straits near to Syracuse ... west of Egypt ...

But what sounds like a hot trail to decipher the enigma of Plato's Atlantis lay forgotten for a long time: As early as 1917, far ahead of his time, Gunnar Rudberg wrote this most coherent scientific analysis. The world did not, however, take notice of a Swedish text. Translated now for the first time, Rudberg's thesis is still a very good read on Plato's Atlantis, presenting not only one of the most credible solutions for Plato's Atlantis, but also offering an introduction to Atlantis research in general.

Sounds not bad, does it? An invention hypothesis, but quite another caliber than the ones out of thin air ...

... I would be interested in your opinions!

Discussion is opened ...

Edited by Proclus

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Posted (edited)

Sounds like they are trying to sell a book, which might be entertaining but there are so many theories about the location of Atlantis, a place we don't know for sure even existed, it boggles the mind.

Edited by Hilander

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Posted (edited)

There are so many theories about the location of Atlantis, a place we don't know for sure even existed, it boggles the mind.

Stop!

This is no existence hypothesis, but an invention hypothesis!

Stop!

Edited by Proclus

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What's the difference?

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What's the difference?

*sigh*

Some say, Plato invented Atlantis = it does not exist (but there could be one or more model(s) for it), and

some say, Plato himself thought Atlantis to be real (although it cannot exactly have been real as described).

Hope I could help ...

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What's the difference?

The first one is a fact and the second is just one of many attempts to show what may have inspired Plato to writer about Atlantis. An inspiration for a story does not make said story a fact although, apparently, there are some who don't know the difference.

cormac

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The first one is a fact and the second is just one of many attempts to show what may have inspired Plato to writer about Atlantis. An inspiration for a story does not make said story a fact although, apparently, there are some who don't know the difference.

After we clarified this ... *thank-you* ... *sigh* ... you could be so kind and spend a few words on the proposed idea?

Here, the inspiration is connected with Plato's own biography!

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I'm not really interested in what may have inspired Plato to write about a place that never existed. I'm more interested in the reality of the situation. And where Atlantis is concerned, there is no reality.

cormac

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I'm not really interested in what may have inspired Plato to write about a place that never existed. I'm more interested in the reality of the situation. And where Atlantis is concerned, there is no reality.

I don't want to be too direct, but your behaviour shows strange features. You browse all the threads only to tell everybody that it is even not worth to spend a single initial thought on the idea, whether Atlantis could be real in this or that way or not. And when I present an invention hypothesis which should be to your pleasure your only comment is: Not interested because the case is clear without spending any thought on it.

Gives me the impression of some sort of fanaticism. Sorry.

And it's a pity: You really could fight better for your cause.

(@Webmaster: Sorry for the open words but once I had to say this)

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Hardly that Sicily can be model because one simple thing. When Plato was called in Sicily, Sicily was most fearful power on Med.sea . It was time of Dionysius. Plato hated Sicily. He was banned from it as I remember.

Also, even if Alcibaldes was in charge of Sicilian expedition they would probably loose. Calvary vs infantry.(?-as I remembered) Plato was c.10 year boy when heard about defeat on Sicily.

Atlantis is power which loose war and later destroyed by Zeus.

Sicily was power which won war and later reach their zenith.

Edited by the L

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Hardly that Sicily can be model because one simple thing. When Plato was called in Sicily, Sicily was most fearful power on Med.sea . It was time of Dionysius. Plato hated Sicily. He was banned from it as I remember.

Also, even Alcibaldes were in charge of Sicilian expedition they would probably loose. Plato was 10 year boy when heard about defeat on Sicily.

Atlantis is power which loose war and later destroyed by Zeus.

Sicily was power which won war and later reach their zenith.

Yes, these historical outline is correct.

But Plato was on Sicily many decades later in order to educate the tyrant to become a philosopher king.

And this failed and Syracuse experienced its downfall.

It is the question whether Plato wrote the dialogues while in Sicily or after it?

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Plato in his work "State" describe man who change himself into wolf. Thats interesting imo. Tyrant? Greed, power?

Anyway, Plato was called in Syracuse. Plato state was Utopian state. But artists were not allowed in it because they bring new idea and revolution. Philosophers must rule the state. soldiers guard it and workers work.

Plato 367 came as future teacher of Dionysius younger and in 360. But failed both times.

Plato was selled as slave.

Im sure Plato hated Sicily.

And Sicily ment to Greeks as America to Europeans. New world.

I dont know where he wrote it. But I dont think it was on Sicily.

One more thing. For Greeks, balsphemy was done on Sicily. Tyrant called celts as dogs of war. Im not gonna say that Celts were barbarians but Greeks seen them that way.

Also Sicily made deal with Illyrians and help Illyrians to won over Greeks.

So Sicily defently isnt place we looking for in any sense, imo.

Edited by the L

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I don't want to be too direct, but your behaviour shows strange features. You browse all the threads only to tell everybody that it is even not worth to spend a single initial thought on the idea, whether Atlantis could be real in this or that way or not. And when I present an invention hypothesis which should be to your pleasure your only comment is: Not interested because the case is clear without spending any thought on it.

Gives me the impression of some sort of fanaticism. Sorry.

And it's a pity: You really could fight better for your cause.

(@Webmaster: Sorry for the open words but once I had to say this)

I'm interested in actual ancient history. Not some made up fantasy place that makes one feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Your mis-named "invention" hypothesis isn't any kind of invention, it's inspiration and that's all it is. I see no real purpose in trying to validate a fantasy. Apparently you do.

As to how much time I've spent looking into the geologic, archaeologic, chronologic, technologic and genetic areas of science in order to research even the remote chance for Atlantis having been a real location, I've put way more time into it than you obviously have. And yet, nothing is supported by scientific evidence. Which is the only evidence that matters.

cormac

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I'm interested in actual ancient history. Not some made up fantasy place that makes one feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Your mis-named "invention" hypothesis isn't any kind of invention, it's inspiration and that's all it is. I see no real purpose in trying to validate a fantasy. Apparently you do.

As to how much time I've spent looking into the geologic, archaeologic, chronologic, technologic and genetic areas of science in order to research even the remote chance for Atlantis having been a real location, I've put way more time into it than you obviously have. And yet, nothing is supported by scientific evidence. Which is the only evidence that matters.

Hope you are aware that you are very very alone with your believe that there was no inspiration at all for inventing Atlantis (if invented at all)? The last scientist I know who thought like that was Ulrich von Wilamowitz-Möllendorff in 1920. How much time did you spend, you said? I assume it took you 5 minutes to read of 9000 years and the Atlantic Ocean, then you made a very short-circuited conclusion (just another 30 seconds), and then you were done. Because "facts" is all which counts.

Did you ever care studying some philosophy of science? You obviously don't know that there are no "facts" at all in this world when it comes to the nitty-gritty. All is guessing to a certain degree of likelihood, never with 100% likelihood. Think of the wisdom of Socrates: I know that I know nothing. This is not a joke and no irony.

And Plato actually was in Syracuse, this is "fact" ... but maybe not for you?

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Plato 367 came as future teacher of Dionysius younger and in 360. But failed both times.

Plato was selled as slave.

You confuse things a bit: Plato was sold as slave by Dionysius I and later tried to educate Dionysius II.

Look: The Atlantis dialogues show some didactic intention: Two states fighting with each other, a good one and a bad one. Isn't this a good message to be taught to Dionysius II? I would not be so sure whether Syracuse is "definetely" not the place we are looking for ...

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Look: The Atlantis dialogues show some didactic intention: Two states fighting with each other, a good one and a bad one.

And who is good and who is bad one in Atlantis story?

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Recently a somewhat forgotten scientific invention hypothesis on Plato's Atlantis written by Prof. Gunnar Rudberg was dug out and brought into the English language for the first time. It still can keep up with current invention hypotheses ... or maybe even more: It casts light on some aspects current invention hypotheses seem to neglect (why?! oohoouuuhooohuaahuaahuaa!).

Maybe it's even closer to the core of Plato's idea with Atlantis than all the rest?

But jugde for yourself:

Syracuse was the place where Plato tried to approach his ideal state in reality - and failed. Indeed, Syracuse shares many similarities with Plato's Atlantis: Like Atlantis, it was situated on a large and fertile island in the west, a city of abundant wealth and power. As in Atlantis, the ruler's castle and magnificent temples were gathered on a small island. As in Atlantis, there were several harbors, quarries and many walls encircling the city. And like Atlantis, Syracuse waged war with Athens.

... there is even a sea straits near to Syracuse ... west of Egypt ...

But what sounds like a hot trail to decipher the enigma of Plato's Atlantis lay forgotten for a long time: As early as 1917, far ahead of his time, Gunnar Rudberg wrote this most coherent scientific analysis. The world did not, however, take notice of a Swedish text. Translated now for the first time, Rudberg's thesis is still a very good read on Plato's Atlantis, presenting not only one of the most credible solutions for Plato's Atlantis, but also offering an introduction to Atlantis research in general.

Sounds not bad, does it? An invention hypothesis, but quite another caliber than the ones out of thin air ...

... I would be interested in your opinions!

Discussion is opened ...

It's an interesting idea:

http://www.amazon.com/Atlantis-Syracuse-Platos-experiences-inspire/dp/384822822X

But Sicily and Syracuse are still very much above sea level. However, I haven't read the book (did you?) so I can't give a real opinion about it.

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And who is good and who is bad one in Atlantis story?

Bad: the Atlantians at a later stage (so not from the start)

Good: the Athenians.

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Bad: the Atlantians at a later stage (so not from the start)

Good: the Athenians.

Exactly, and I like especially the precision that the Atlantians are not bad from the beginning.

Be Atlantis real or not: Plato wanted to say something with this. To teach something.

But to whom?

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Hope you are aware that you are very very alone with your believe that there was no inspiration at all for inventing Atlantis (if invented at all)? The last scientist I know who thought like that was Ulrich von Wilamowitz-Möllendorff in 1920. How much time did you spend, you said? I assume it took you 5 minutes to read of 9000 years and the Atlantic Ocean, then you made a very short-circuited conclusion (just another 30 seconds), and then you were done. Because "facts" is all which counts.

Did you ever care studying some philosophy of science? You obviously don't know that there are no "facts" at all in this world when it comes to the nitty-gritty. All is guessing to a certain degree of likelihood, never with 100% likelihood. Think of the wisdom of Socrates: I know that I know nothing. This is not a joke and no irony.

And Plato actually was in Syracuse, this is "fact" ... but maybe not for you?

You obviously don't know what I've said during my time here or you wouldn't be making such an ignorant remark, to whit (from the "Atlantis is a reality find out where here" thread):

Even if he used the disappearance of other locations, such as Helike or Santorini, as an inspiration for some of his tale this still wouldn't validate an island civilization just outside of the Pillars of Hercules.

Try not "assuming" so much, it just makes you look rather uninformed. I've spent several years studying the relevant information from the various fields I've mentioned previously, to come to the conclusion I have. Have you?

cormac

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I dared to judge on your postings in three threads I learned here and I do not feel mistaken.

Try not "assuming" so much, it just makes you look rather uninformed. I've spent several years studying the relevant information from the various fields I've mentioned previously, to come to the conclusion I have. Have you?

I started in 1999, so it's around 14 years now, and I assume you simply read the wrong books.

First of all you have to learn ancient Greek, of course. Ah, I did this before 1999.

Then you have to learn about Plato and his philosophy. "Platonic Myths" as one key word of many.

Then about the historical context, the Greeks and their view of the world, the Egyptians, etc.

Learning Middle Egyptian (hieroglyphs) was enightening, too, to a certain extent.

The key science is: Philology, or "Classical Studies" if you will. Surely not geology, genetics, climatology, volcanism and such "material science" stuff. These sciences are necessary but only secondary. What has to be found is the proper interpretation of Plato's text, not necessarily a real place, but could be a real place, you don't know from the beginning. And that's the point: You make the mistake to think it's obvious how to interprete Plato, but it is not.

Edited by Proclus

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I dared to judge on your postings in three threads I learned here and I do not feel mistaken.

I started in 1999, so it's around 14 years now, and I assume you simply read the wrong books.

What has to be found is the proper interpretation of Plato's text, not necessarily a real place, but could be a real place, you don't know from the beginning.

~SNIP~

That was your first mistake, but then ignorance really is bliss apparently.

So you're a newbie who assumes quite alot. For some reason that doesn't surprise me.

Which is the whole point behind the debate claiming Atlantis was a real place. While I've done my share of reading in the area of Classical Studies as well, it's the "material science stuff" as you call it that either will or won't validate Atlantis as an actual place. And these sciences have shown, across the board, that Plato's account is wrong. Which leaves you with nothing more than a search for the inspiration of a place that never existed. I have to wonder if snipe-hunting isn't on your list of things to do next.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt

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You confuse things a bit: Plato was sold as slave by Dionysius I and later tried to educate Dionysius II.

I think you confused few things. He didnt thought him well because son poisoned his father.

Or you think that Plato was puppet master, hand from shadow, which thought young man to kill his father as revenge for slavery, ...Plato the conspirator...Plato Ploter.

Edited by the L

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Yes, these historical outline is correct.

But Plato was on Sicily many decades later in order to educate the tyrant to become a philosopher king.

And this failed and Syracuse experienced its downfall.

It is the question whether Plato wrote the dialogues while in Sicily or after it?

Actually, the question should be did Plato write Critias before he ever went to Sicily.

The most common date you'll find for Critias is 360 BC. Tht was Benjamin Jowett's claim. Jowett's translation is the most common one you'll find on the internet (because it's free.) That could explain why so many sites list it as being written then. I've seen later dates for it.

It appears that Plato's first trip to Syracuse took place at some point after 366. You might find the following useful for what you appear to be interested in here:

http://www.livius.org/sh-si/sicily/sicily_t20.html

Harte

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So you're a newbie who assumes quite alot.

Besides that I do not understand why somebody who studies the case for more than 10 years on a scientific level is a "newbie" ...:

I really have the strong feeling that we exchanged all our arguments, let's stop our discussion here, ok? I really don't know what else to say to bring your mistake to your conscience. I said enough to enable you to see your mistake.

Maybe studying the philosophy of science would help you, such as reading Karl R. Popper, or minimalist works on biblical archaeology like "The Bible Unearthed" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed It's not that you had a lack of "facutal" knowledge, that's ok. It's a lack of methodology, a lack of philosophy of science, which leads you into an abyss of premature conclusions.

There's a very good youtube docu on "Bible Unearthed", see it here:

I clearly recommend this to everybody who wants to foster his scientific understanding of history.

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