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Proclus

Model for Atlantis found?

33 posts in this topic

Besides that I do not understand why somebody who studies the case for more than 10 years on a scientific level is a "newbie" ...:

I apologize for budging in, but a newbie here you are and frankly, your line of argumentation reflects it.

I really have the strong feeling that we exchanged all our arguments, let's stop our discussion here, ok?

If you really believe that you have reached the end your argumental line, that is frankly very telling.

I really don't know what else to say to bring your mistake to your conscience. I said enough to enable you to see your mistake.

In fact, no you didn't. What you did show, however, was a lack of research skills or maybe the lack of breadth in knowledge that Cormac arguably possesses in this field of study.

Maybe studying the philosophy of science would help you, such as reading Karl R. Popper, or minimalist works on biblical archaeology like "The Bible Unearthed" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed It's not that you had a lack of "facutal" knowledge, that's ok. It's a lack of methodology, a lack of philosophy of science, which leads you into an abyss of premature conclusions.

Sorry, I cannot be be bothered with watching YouTube videos.

Cheers,

Badeskov

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Talking about a 'model' for Atlantis, I think this post of mine

http://www.unexplain...30#entry4607187

belongs in this thread instead.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Wait, im confused, we looking for a model of a place that didnt exsist, contextulising a place that did exsist as a replacment or saying that there is a similarity between the 2. Or are you outright saying that sicisly is Atlantis? Because last I checked on a map, wait..... Phew yip its still there and not under water.... The next thing you need to consider is Sicisly was not the place it was when the time period for Adlantis is estimated at.

So I can see what you are trying to do but I cant for one second for the life of me fathom that Plato didnt then just use Sicisly instead of making up a place called Adlantis.

But I do understand your point of connecting the similarities to the cultures and experinces Plato may have had when there. But not sure we can tie that back to Adlantis. So have to agree with Cormac here.

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I apologize for budging in, but a newbie here you are and frankly, your line of argumentation reflects it.

If you really believe that you have reached the end your argumental line, that is frankly very telling.

In fact, no you didn't. What you did show, however, was a lack of research skills or maybe the lack of breadth in knowledge that Cormac arguably possesses in this field of study.

My line of argumentation is: What has to be found is the proper interpretation of Plato's text. Not necessarily a real place, but it could be a real place in the sense of a distorted historical tradition. Or there was maybe a model for the invention? Before you found the right interpretation you do not know this. And it is not obvious what is the right interpretation of Plato's text. You cannot make conclusions before you started thinking. - Furthermore, the historcial context has to be considered. You cannot just judge an ancient text as if it was written in the present. Without knowing the historical context you cannot provide a proper interpretation.

cormac's line of argumentation is: Oh, it's 9600 BC (we today know: stone age!) and in the Atlantic Ocean (we today know: there is nothing!), so it simply cannot be any truth in it and it is not worth to spend any further thought on it. Attempts to ask for the historical context, to ask for a distorted historical tradition are only "rationalizations" of something which cannot and does and must not exist. (With this line of argumentation e.g. Herodotus' Egypt does not exist, too - oouuups!)

Now then, what is wrong with my line of argumentation?

Do you really prefer cormac's line which is simply pseudo-science?!

Please tell me, badeskov.

Sincerely

Your "newbie"

Edited by Proclus

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My line of argumentation is: What has to be found is the proper interpretation of Plato's text. Not necessarily a real place, but it could be a real place in the sense of a distorted historical tradition. Or there was maybe a model for the invention? Before you found the right interpretation you do not know this. And it is not obvious what is the right interpretation of Plato's text. You cannot make conclusions before you started thinking. - Furthermore, the historcial context has to be considered. You cannot just judge an ancient text as if it was written in the present. Without knowing the historical context you cannot provide a proper interpretation.

cormac's line of argumentation is: Oh, it's 9600 BC (we today know: stone age!) and in the Atlantic Ocean (we today know: there is nothing!), so it simply cannot be any truth in it and it is not worth to spend any further thought on it. Attempts to ask for the historical context, to ask for a distorted historical tradition are only "rationalizations" of something which cannot and does and must not exist. (With this line of argumentation e.g. Herodotus' Egypt does not exist, too - oouuups!)

Now then, what is wrong with my line of argumentation?

Do you really prefer cormac's line which is simply pseudo-science?!

Please tell me, badeskov.

Sincerely

Your "newbie"

You suffer from an English comprehension problem evidently. Not only today do we not find evidence for Atlantis in the location Plato gives, but not even within anatomically modern human history, which is the last c.200,000 years.

There is no truth in the location, size or technological capabilities of an island civilization, Plato's Atlantis, that multiple scientific disciplines have shown never existed.

There is no historical context for a place that didn't exist. And attempting to find locations that "may" have inspired the story of Atlantis does not make them Atlantis. :rolleyes:

Beyond looking for what may have inspired the story, it's meaningless as to the actual existance of such a place.

cormac

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You suffer from an English comprehension problem evidently. ....................

I don't think so, but as I said already: Let's stop talking on this, it leads to nowhere :-)

And attempting to find locations that "may" have inspired the story of Atlantis does not make them Atlantis. :rolleyes:

I never claimed this, this is a suspicious phantasy of yours.

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I have to admit I'd never considered Syracuse as a possible source of inspiration for Plato's Atlantis. I would broaden it to include Sicily in general, given its lofty status in the minds of Greeks back on the mainland. Sicily was much desired by numerous Mediterranean peoples. The Greeks took it from the native Sicani, and the Greeks themselves fought over it between themselves for centuries. The Greeks fought the Carthaginians for Sicily, several times. Then the Romans fought the Carthaginians for it before the Romans emerged victorious in the Punic Wars.

It's a blood-soaked island, and also one of the most beautiful in the Mediterranean. It also marked a sort of zenith in Greek architecture and poleis. Greeks back home on the mainland had the impression that everyone living in Sicily was wealthy and enjoyed lives of leisure.

I see no possibility in regarding Syracuse or any other polis in Sicily as the historical Atlantis, but Athens' own experience with the place certainly taught them a lesson that Plato could've folded into his allegorical narrative.

If UM has done anything for me over the years, it has been to help me see that more than one source of inspiration may have colored Plato's tale when he wrote it. From ancient Thera there was a colossal natural destruction of a great island city inhabited by a wealthy and powerful culture, whose thalassocracy then began to slip into decline. There is the lost great civilization of Atlantis fame. From Plato's own time was the natural destruction of the Peloponnesian polis of Helike. This city-state appears to have been of minor repute in the Greek world, but here is the destruction of an actual city. And from Syracuse we have the perfect example of the hubris from which a great people might suffer.

During the Peloponnesian War, Athens launched an assault against Syracuse. Plato would've been only around ten years old at the time, but the events that transpired in Sicily would've left an indelible and frightening effect on the minds of all Athenians, young and old alike. As Thucydides tells us in his accounts of the war, Pericles had warned the Athenians not to try to expand the empire. But with Pericles dead in the early years of the war and Athens no longer under the benefit of such a great and cautious leader, Athens did just that—tried to expand its empire.

The Athenian expedition to Sicily in 415 BCE was an unmitigated disaster in every conceivable way. Not only did the Syracusens and their Spartan leader defeat Athens on land and at sea, but given the massive war effort Athens had thrown at the island, Athens lost a significant percentage of its male population and a very important corps of talented military leadership. While it's true that Athens was able to rebuild its fleet late in the war, it never seemed to rebound from its losses in Sicily and its later leadership was often cowed and hesitant at best. (The one direct benefit to Athens' war effort might have been the death of Nicias, but that's a personal, parenthetical insertion on my part.) This had to have been a humiliating and humbling defeat to Athens.

So here I see where Plato might have gotten the idea for the way a city might pay for its arrogance, just as Atlantis did in his tale. Athens most certainly did, in real life.

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I have to admit I'd never considered Syracuse as a possible source of inspiration for Plato's Atlantis. I would broaden it to include Sicily in general, given its lofty status in the minds of Greeks back on the mainland. Sicily was much desired by numerous Mediterranean peoples. ................

..................So here I see where Plato might have gotten the idea for the way a city might pay for its arrogance, just as Atlantis did in his tale. Athens most certainly did, in real life.

I think you could enjoy reading Gunnar Rudberg's work.

What I find also intriguing with this book is that he goes through all hypotheses of his time which shows two astonishing things:

( a ) Rudberg does not neglect the existence hypotheses, the takes them very serious but decides against them, in the end. This is very credible.

( b ) All the hypotheses of today were still in place at Rudberg's time, at least in principle. You do not so much have the impression to read a book which is 100 years old. It's very modern!

Edited by Proclus

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