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RavenHawk

Traits of Socialism

152 posts in this topic

The USSR was as communistic as East Germany was democratic (official name: German Democratic Republic). What failed is not communism, what failed is state capitalism, which is not the same. We still have to see a communistic state.

Whether it be Socialism or all the way with Communism the same applies.

It isnt in tune with the external environment and doesnt manage its resources correctly to aid survival. The reason why socialist states in the EU are doing well is they've created an economic bubble with the EU that prevents outside nations competing on equal ground. If it was removed the EU nations would need to streamline their economies pretty fast to survive.

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Whether it be Socialism or all the way with Communism the same applies.

It isnt in tune with the external environment and doesnt manage its resources correctly to aid survival. The reason why socialist states in the EU are doing well is they've created an economic bubble with the EU that prevents outside nations competing on equal ground. If it was removed the EU nations would need to streamline their economies pretty fast to survive.

Which tells me that besides your "learned by heart" tirade you have not bothered to learn anything about it. And fanatic "learned by heart" and repeated like a mantra is certainly not a lasting argument.

If I say communism is unworkable I know why.

Edited by questionmark

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Which tells me that besides your "learned by heart" tirade you have not bothered to learn anything about it. And fanatic "learned by heart" and repeated like a mantra is certainly not a lasting argument.

If I say communism is unworkable I know why.

You expect me to understand that reply?

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You expect me to understand that reply?

Not really. But it does not matter either.

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I was going to wait until I got caught up, but you are just getting sillier as each post goes along. You need to be soaked and then B!tch slapped a few times before being hung to dry.

By acknowledging that is doesn't really exist.

"Is the thought of a Unicorn a real thought ?" Philip K Dick

Apples and oranges. The Unicorn may or may not have existed but Socialism is a reality. A Unicorn doesn’t steal Freedom from the people.

You see your mistake is to attribute what is happening in America to socialism - when in fact it has been on a long slow slide into a fascistic totalitarian state. By mis-diagnosing the cause you make any resistance you might offer ineffective.

Br Cornelius

What do you think I’ve been saying? Socialism has been creeping into our system for over a century now. I would say that is a long slow slide into a Totalitarian state. There is no flaw in logic here. No misdiagnosing the cause. Socialism is the greatest bait and switch ploy ever.

Yes, it is resistance and it is very effective because I am pushing your buttons so hard that you instinctively go to defend that idealistic, utopian concept of what you think Socialism *should* be, where we all sit around the camp fire and sing Kumbaya. The hard cold reality is that Socialism today is the most common form of government and has the ruling elite taking more and more power from the people. And the OP was just one example of that. I’m not going to waste my time being considerate to people’s sensibilities; I’m going to call a spade a spade.

Every post so far you’ve made has been one excuse after the other. I would imagine that all the ones following will be of similar kind?!

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I've learned not to debate with Raven-Hawk since he claimed that the majority of people on Earth are 'soulless', except for him of course.

Please just stick with putting words into your mouth and not others. Don’t worry; I won’t report your personal attack on me. I realize that is all you have.

There is nothing socialist about this law. It's a socially conservative way to enforce homogenity onto the people. It does absolutely nothing to redistribute the wealth, in fact it has nothing to do with economics at all.

Hello? Enforcing homogeneity against someone’s will is not socially conservative. Forcing this onto the people is Socialism. Socialism is not just about redistributing wealth. It is all about power and who holds it. Socialism is anything Oligarchical. And that means that the society doesn’t rule by law, it is the rule of one or the group and that always leads to oppression.

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To me all this about socialism or communism, plutocracies such as US or elected oligarchies such as UK, is redundant. All this is about people with nothing better to do than talk to each other while ordinary people have to do real work. The political classes of left and right are worthless parasites, and I see many on the so called left who are appalling hypocites who have no idea of real work, whose hands are as soft as babies. What is a trait of socialism? well, I think it is all as one with capitalism, as in Animal Farm. I curse all of them. For me, with some reservations, Nestor Makhno showed the way. He was hated by left and right, so perhaps he had correct ideas as left and right usually join together to crush anybody that threatens their monopoly on power.

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Socialism is not having to work to pay for things? That is indeed an abused high ideal then.

Not really, it's not having to PAY for things, you still have to work as it's your responsibility as part of the community to contribute in your own way to the society.

What do you have to work for?

Judging by Star Trek (and they actually give this answer at least once in the show) - to better yourself, to achieve goals you set yourself.

One's inner altruism and personal pride?

Bingo.

Is this magic world somehow free from greed too and everyone is going to behave themselves just like the nice man in the uniform instructed?

Exactly why I said it's too high an idea for current mankind.

And they not going to behave themselves because an authority tells them to, they're going to behave themselves because it's the right and proper way to act.

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Socialism is a very easily abused high ideal - an ideal so high that we're not ready for it and as such turn it to the neds of whever is powerful enough to do so.

Star Trek's Federation and Banks' Culture are arguably socialistic as noone has to work to pay for tings, if you need something it's provided fo you and there is no real govern,ent beyond a group of people maling sure the lights work and noone invades you.

The Ferengi disagree. Greed is good, platinum is pretty. The Federation is boring and your human females are unattractive when clothed. Blaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! How can you stand yourselves? *cracks electrical whip*

Edited by Purifier
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Well, one trait of Socialism is that is an ECONOMIC idea. Gun Control is neither socialistic nor capitalistic. Naming babies also has nothing to do with socialism. Star Trek is indeed a socialist utopia with maybe the exception of the Ferengi. However, I personally think due to human nature, our future socialist utopia will be more like WALL-E.

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I was going to wait until I got caught up, but you are just getting sillier as each post goes along. You need to be soaked and then B!tch slapped a few times before being hung to dry.

Apples and oranges. The Unicorn may or may not have existed but Socialism is a reality. A Unicorn doesn't steal Freedom from the people.

What do you think I've been saying? Socialism has been creeping into our system for over a century now. I would say that is a long slow slide into a Totalitarian state. There is no flaw in logic here. No misdiagnosing the cause. Socialism is the greatest bait and switch ploy ever.

Yes, it is resistance and it is very effective because I am pushing your buttons so hard that you instinctively go to defend that idealistic, utopian concept of what you think Socialism *should* be, where we all sit around the camp fire and sing Kumbaya. The hard cold reality is that Socialism today is the most common form of government and has the ruling elite taking more and more power from the people. And the OP was just one example of that. I'm not going to waste my time being considerate to people's sensibilities; I'm going to call a spade a spade.

Every post so far you've made has been one excuse after the other. I would imagine that all the ones following will be of similar kind?!

You do not understand socialism so you cannot comment on it. Your comments are abundant evidence of your lack of understanding.

Br Cornelius

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No, that is communism. Socialism is when the government is democratic and its aim is that every citizen is insured an minimum level of subsistence. Everybody should still work. The only ones who are exempt are those who would be exempt in any society and they get the minimum any political system confers upon them to avoid that they make a nuisance out of themselves.

I thought the "government" was democratic in a hippie commune. Everyone should still work, why? What for? That was my question, still isn't answered.

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Control of oficial baby names is efective in my country since almost its beggining, and socialism was not even an idea back then. People tend to confuse comunism, socialism and totalitarism frecuently, usually because of their own flawed conceptions.

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It all comes down to people calling themselves something that they are not, and changing the definition of the word. I.E. Socialists who called themselves socialists weren't really socialists but government douchebags and people miss that part and use government douchebags for the meaning of socialist.

What does everything in nature do? It grows, that is what working is. Growing making things better. If you are not working your making things shrink, taking away, making things worse. Problem is defining what is actually working.

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I thought the "government" was democratic in a hippie commune. Everyone should still work, why? What for? That was my question, still isn't answered.

The government is everywhere there democratic where the sovereign is the people. Even if in some places We the People could not care a sh!t about being the sovereign.

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Well, one trait of Socialism is that is an ECONOMIC idea. Gun Control is neither socialistic nor capitalistic. Naming babies also has nothing to do with socialism. Star Trek is indeed a socialist utopia with maybe the exception of the Ferengi. However, I personally think due to human nature, our future socialist utopia will be more like WALL-E.

We need to define the political spectrum as some seem confused about it.

An extreme left-wing government is a dictatorship or autocratic regime. One where a single person makes all the laws, decides whats good for everyone else and controls every aspect of citizens lives. Stalin and Hilter has extreme left-wing governments. There is little freedom under such regimes which people resent.

An extreme right-wing government is a true democracy. One where the entire population rules and laws are at their minimum. Ancient Athens had an extreme right-wing government. The danger here is the population might get together, vote and go lynch someone without following the rule of law.

Socialism is left-wing. Its about a small group of people (or less) dictating how the population should live their lives using laws and regulations. It is a nanny state. Due to the ideology within socialism they try to make everyone equals using laws, regulations and taxes. Hence freedom is taken away, the economy gets burdened with red tape and the state underachieves.

Conservatism is right-wing. Conservatives want the maximum practical freedom for the population by having the minimum laws and regulations. Its about the state not interferring in peoples lives unless it has too. Due to the ideology within Conservatism people are rewarded for individual ability and excellance through an economic system which allocates the most wealth to them. Hence the people are no longer held back because they can live up to their full potential. The downside (for the bottom at least) is the state stops carrying them.

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Hitler was not a socialist in anything other than name. He was an elitist who favored corporations over democratically elected representatives. Fascism has always been accepted as the logical end point of right wing thinking (which is different to libertarian ism).

Mr Right Wing - your attempts to attribute everything bad in the world to the left and everything good to the right, will not hold much water with anyone who has a cursory understanding of history.

Br Cornelius

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Mr Right Wing, Br Cornelius is right, facism is corporativist, one aspect of the right wing. Heck, almost all of the description you made about the left wing can be asigned to the actions of our right wing goverments.

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Hitler was not a socialist in anything other than name. He was an elitist who favored corporations over democratically elected representatives. Fascism has always been accepted as the logical end point of right wing thinking (which is different to libertarian ism).

Mr Right Wing - your attempts to attribute everything bad in the world to the left and everything good to the right, will not hold much water with anyone who has a cursory understanding of history.

Br Cornelius

He introduced state healthcare, drastically increased the number of state employees, formed a totalitarian state which regulated vast areas of peoples lives, had a secret police to get rid of those who objected, governed as a dictator, nationalised many industries and introduced a variety of social policies such as Hitler Youth. His Government was extreme left-wing and nationalistic hence the phrase national socialism.

Your political misconceptions dont hold water with anyone who actually knows anything about politics. Hitler and Stalin were very similar with the only real difference being that they didnt like each other.

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Mr Right Wing, Br Cornelius is right, facism is corporativist, one aspect of the right wing. Heck, almost all of the description you made about the left wing can be asigned to the actions of our right wing goverments.

Fascism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism - 'A form of radical authoritarian nationalism' and further on 'fascism advocates a state-controlled and regulated mixed economy'

As I was saying theres people on here (including you) that have no clue what they're talking about when it comes to politics. What right-wing governments do you know of that introduced a state-controlled and regulated mixed economy while practising authoritarian nationalism? There isnt one example in the whole of history because fascism is at odds with right-wing politics.

You have left-wing examples such as the nazis. Goodness knows why you think capitalism is fascism. You live in a highly distorted world and I suspect have been indocturned to see the political right as nazis when they were left-wingers. Go check German history because the Nazis Party was their version of the Labour Party.

Edited by Mr Right Wing

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Go check German history because the Nazis Party was their version of the Labour Party.

Can you then explain the links between Hitler and the Aufbau organisation.

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Fascism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism - 'A form of radical authoritarian nationalism' and further on 'fascism advocates a state-controlled and regulated mixed economy'

As I was saying theres people on here (including you) that have no clue what they're talking about when it comes to politics. What right-wing governments do you know of that introduced a state-controlled and regulated mixed economy while practising authoritarian nationalism? There isnt one example in the whole of history because fascism is at odds with right-wing politics.

You have left-wing examples such as the nazis. Goodness knows why you think capitalism is fascism. You live in a highly distorted world and I suspect have been indocturned to see the political right as nazis when they were left-wingers. Go check German history because the Nazis Party was their version of the Labour Party.

Right, and because the Nazis were the Labor party there was no need for the Communist Party, the Socialist Party and the Social Democratic Party... but wait... they all existed... and the National Socialist Party was not first called the National Party, then the National Worker's Party and finally the National Socialist Workers Party taking each time a percent or two from the legitimate parties nor was it the Right Wing parties like the German Democratic Party, the German Centrist Party, the Bavarian Popular Party and the German Popular Party who finally put Hitler with his 13% in power.

Shesh, sometime prejudices are stronger than history in some people's head.

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Right, and because the Nazis were the Labor party there was no need for the Communist Party, the Socialist Party and the Social Democratic Party... but wait... they all existed... and the National Socialist Party was not first called the National Party, then the National Worker's Party and finally the National Socialist Workers Party taking each time a percent or two from the legitimate parties nor was it the Right Wing parties like the German Democratic Party, the German Centrist Party, the Bavarian Popular Party and the German Popular Party who finally put Hitler with his 13% in power.

Shesh, sometime prejudices are stronger than history in some people's head.

The Nazis eliminated parties further to the left because they were involved in the terrorist attack on the Reichstag. They also had a night of long knives to eliminate their own party members who were also too far to the left. They did not progress from a national party to a national socialist workers party as you're implying.

Finally what on earth does your reply have to do with what I posted?

Edited by Mr Right Wing
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Can you then explain the links between Hitler and the Aufbau organisation.

I've never heard of it and the only references I can find are in German so I cant reply to you I'm afraid.

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The Nazis eliminated parties further to the left because they were involved in the terrorist attack on the Reichstag. They also had a night of long knives to eliminate their own party members who were also too far to the left. They did not progress from a national party to a national socialist workers party as you're implying.

Finally what on earth does your reply have to do with what I posted?

The Nazis eliminated parties further to the left because they were involved in the terrorist attack on the Reichstag. They also had a night of long knives to eliminate their own party members who were also too far to the left. They did not progress from a national party to a national socialist workers party as you're implying.

Finally what on earth does your reply have to do with what I posted?

It has something to do because you claimed they were on the left, they were not, they might have been further to the left than where you are, but from day one the Nazis were on the right, promoting all that comes along with the right and therefore in the end supported by the German parties of the right and not on the left.

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