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Big Bad Voodoo

Famed Roman shipwreck reveals more secrets

66 posts in this topic

The post by Merc was not about historical facts, it was more about his usual flame baiting. Which I just ignore, No time for that.

Flamebaiting? How? You made several alllegations that I questioned and you then backed up those allegations, not with any proof but by comparing the device being one of a kind to a Sharps rifle (once again, a very poor analogy) and wrongly stating that brass was an invaluable metal during the period in question and therefore many of these devices would've been melted down. You also said this was a device for astrologers hence making it a popular device and no where has that been stated.

Searcher at least put forth some cogent facts that help very slightly with your one argument that there were many geared mechaniisms in this period but I wasn't arguing that, I was arguing specifically about the Antikythera mechanism. I realize that the Greeks and others in the region, were constructing some complex mechanisms but nothing as complex as the Antikythera mechanism has been found to my knowledge.

As far as whose posts are "not about historical facts" I would like to know exactly where I strayed from historical facts and then I would like you to defend the following statements you made to make your case:

1. Brass was an invaluable metal during the 3rd century AD in the Mediterranean region.

2. This devise was used widely by astrologers, hence it isn't unique. I see know where that it is postuulated tha the Antikythera mechanism was mapping the movement of the constellations, which is teh basis of astrology, so please educate us all.

3. What historical facts I got wrong?

4. Where was I flamebaiting? Is merely questioning you now considered flamebaiting? I haven't said anything derogatory nor have I insulted you, i just don't agree with your statements.

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Flamebaiting? How? You made several alllegations that I questioned and you then backed up those allegations, not with any proof but by comparing the device being one of a kind to a Sharps rifle (once again, a very poor analogy) and wrongly stating that brass was an invaluable metal during the period in question and therefore many of these devices would've been melted down. You also said this was a device for astrologers hence making it a popular device and no where has that been stated.

Searcher at least put forth some cogent facts that help very slightly with your one argument that there were many geared mechaniisms in this period but I wasn't arguing that, I was arguing specifically about the Antikythera mechanism. I realize that the Greeks and others in the region, were constructing some complex mechanisms but nothing as complex as the Antikythera mechanism has been found to my knowledge.

As far as whose posts are "not about historical facts" I would like to know exactly where I strayed from historical facts and then I would like you to defend the following statements you made to make your case:

1. Brass was an invaluable metal during the 3rd century AD in the Mediterranean region.

2. This devise was used widely by astrologers, hence it isn't unique. I see know where that it is postuulated tha the Antikythera mechanism was mapping the movement of the constellations, which is teh basis of astrology, so please educate us all.

3. What historical facts I got wrong?

4. Where was I flamebaiting? Is merely questioning you now considered flamebaiting? I haven't said anything derogatory nor have I insulted you, i just don't agree with your statements.

Lets start where I said number 1.

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Lets start where I said number 1.

Scroll up and explain how melting down a unique instrument that any idiot would realize may be priceless or worth a lot of gold to the right party would melt that thing down to about 5 pounds of brass unless brass was worth a hellua lot at the time. Not much you can do with 5 pounds or sio of brass, maybe make one worthless sword (worthless when everyone else is using iron). And explain the rest to so we don't get into your little side track arguments that go on for pages while uyou break down every word to make us all forget what we were talking about in the first place. LMAO. So I'll repeat them for you right here:

As far as whose posts are "not about historical facts" I would like to know exactly where I strayed from historical facts and then I would like you to defend the following statements you made to make your case:

1. Brass was an invaluable metal during the 3rd century AD in the Mediterranean region.

2. This devise was used widely by astrologers, hence it isn't unique. I see know where that it is postuulated tha the Antikythera mechanism was mapping the movement of the constellations, which is teh basis of astrology, so please educate us all.

3. What historical facts I got wrong?

4. Where was I flamebaiting? Is merely questioning you now considered flamebaiting? I haven't said anything derogatory nor have I insulted you, i just don't agree with your statements.

Or you can just say you were wrong and we can all move on.

Edited by Merc14

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Scroll up and explain how melting down a unique instrument that any idiot would realize may be priceless or worth a lot of gold to the right party would melt that thing down to about 5 pounds of brass unless brass was worth a hellua lot at the time. Not much you can do with 5 pounds or sio of brass, maybe make one worthless sword (worthless when everyone else is using iron). And explain the rest to so we don't get into your little side track arguments that go on for pages while uyou break down every word to make us all forget what we were talking about in the first place. LMAO. So I'll repeat them for you right here:

As far as whose posts are "not about historical facts" I would like to know exactly where I strayed from historical facts and then I would like you to defend the following statements you made to make your case:

1. Brass was an invaluable metal during the 3rd century AD in the Mediterranean region.

2. This devise was used widely by astrologers, hence it isn't unique. I see know where that it is postuulated tha the Antikythera mechanism was mapping the movement of the constellations, which is teh basis of astrology, so please educate us all.

3. What historical facts I got wrong?

4. Where was I flamebaiting? Is merely questioning you now considered flamebaiting? I haven't said anything derogatory nor have I insulted you, i just don't agree with your statements.

Or you can just say you were wrong and we can all move on.

"invaluable" is still something that you, for the third time, are trying to put in my mouth.

And more than one "invaluable" item has been sold as scrap metal, among others the first functional clock we know of (the one of the Tower of the Winds) and the Colossus of Rhodes come to mind.

So yes, while you are misrepresenting what I said and trying to move the context around all I can conclude that you are flamebaiting. Nice try, won't work.

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"invaluable" is still something that you, for the third time, are trying to put in my mouth.

And more than one "invaluable" item has been sold as scrap metal, among others the first functional clock we know of (the one of the Tower of the Winds) and the Colossus of Rhodes come to mind.

So yes, while you are misrepresenting what I said and trying to move the context around all I can conclude that you are flamebaiting. Nice try, won't work.

Ok, you won't answer. Thanks for confirming what I said and no, I am not getting into the circular arguments you use to escape admitting you are wrong. Didn't expect you to as you aren't up to the task. I accomplished my goal so won't bore the others with pages of back and forth over each individual word. :td: LMAO.

Edited by Merc14

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Very cool article. I hope they locate other, even more interesting instruments.

I've always thought the Mechanism was the work of a Genius. Perhaps all coming from one workshop. The reason they are not found is that there were few of them. Even if two hundred were made, and distributed to heads of state and VIPs worldwide... after 2000 years it would not be usual to never find even one. Unless one was taken and buried with its owner, or buried in a jewelry hoard (Which I doubt anyone would let happen if they were as useful as they seem they would be), then you would expect them to eventually be damaged and destroyed and then melted down again.

The amount of stuff that gets preserved from antiquity is only a tiny percentage of what was.

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Very cool article. I hope they locate other, even more interesting instruments.

I've always thought the Mechanism was the work of a Genius. Perhaps all coming from one workshop. The reason they are not found is that there were few of them. Even if two hundred were made, and distributed to heads of state and VIPs worldwide... after 2000 years it would not be usual to never find even one. Unless one was taken and buried with its owner, or buried in a jewelry hoard (Which I doubt anyone would let happen if they were as useful as they seem they would be), then you would expect them to eventually be damaged and destroyed and then melted down again.

The amount of stuff that gets preserved from antiquity is only a tiny percentage of what was.

quite correct. And you do find them mentioned in the works of different authors and engineers, so we know there was more than one.

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I wonder could antikythera mechanism purpose could be time keeping?

Could it be a precise watch?

We know that astronomy and time keeping are realy connected...so..just a thought.

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I wonder could antikythera mechanism purpose could be time keeping?

Could it be a precise watch?

We know that astronomy and time keeping are realy connected...so..just a thought.

A watch needs a power source. No evident springs were found in the machine.

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A watch needs a power source. No evident springs were found in the machine.

Perhaps they were lost.

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Perhaps they were lost.

No, that would have become apparent, when they made the reproduction. A good mechanical engineer can extrapolate quite a bit from what they had of the mechanism in the first place. It doesn't allow for springs or a power source in the first place.

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No, that would have become apparent, when they made the reproduction. A good mechanical engineer can extrapolate quite a bit from what they had of the mechanism in the first place. It doesn't allow for springs or a power source in the first place.

Isnt surprising that they didnt developed a watch? To keep astronomical records you must have precise time keeping.

Maybe it was different type of power source...speculating.

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Isnt surprising that they didnt developed a watch? To keep astronomical records you must have precise time keeping.

Maybe it was different type of power source...speculating.

They had no need for precise timekeeping. In fact, until the 18th century nobody came up with the idea that time had to be kept precisely (and that only because they needed something to measure the precise location a ship was at). Before that people thought in days, the impatient ones in hours.

Until about the 16th century mechanical clocks did not even have minute hands, and they were not used for the average person to keep time with but so the night guards knew when to sound the all clear signal (i.e. no fire and no enemy in sight) twelve times a night in regular intervals.

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They had no need for precise timekeeping. In fact, until the 18th century nobody came up with the idea that time had to be kept precisely (and that only because they needed something to measure the precise location a ship was at). Before that people thought in days, the impatient ones in hours.

Until about the 16th century mechanical clocks did not even have minute hands, and they were not used for the average person to keep time with but so the night guards knew when to sound the all clear signal (i.e. no fire and no enemy in sight) twelve times a night in regular intervals.

Didnt Huygens invent pendulm clock because of astronimical needs?

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Didnt Huygens invent pendulm clock because of astronimical needs?

Yep, in the late17th century. At the same time (give or take a few decades, Harrison build a handheld for navigation purposes)

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Yep, in the late17th century. At the same time (give or take a few decades, Harrison build a handheld for navigation purposes)

But isnt that suggest that ancients might do that too? and that antikythera mechanism and similar might been used for that purpose aswell?

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There is a story about Archimedes that I wonder if it is true or not. It seems a few hundred years after his death the great Cicero visited Syracuse and asked to see his grave. The Syracusans had no idea what Cicero was talking about, so put him off, and a week later produced an elaborate grave with monuments and all that was appropriate to the great man. I gather Cicero was not convinced.

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But isnt that suggest that ancients might do that too? and that antikythera mechanism and similar might been used for that purpose aswell?

.

The "ancients", especially the Romans and the Greeks left us lots of self adulation on how and what they did, I fail to see astronomy among them. But astrology was very common in Greece, where the exact hour is less relevant than the exact day. The ascendent theory was not introduced to astrology until the 17-18th century. And only there you need to know the hour. And as we see by the known machines, that is what they were used for: astrology, not astronomy.

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.

The "ancients", especially the Romans and the Greeks left us lots of self adulation on how and what they did, I fail to see astronomy among them. But astrology was very common in Greece, where the exact hour is less relevant than the exact day. The ascendent theory was not introduced to astrology until the 17-18th century. And only there you need to know the hour. And as we see by the known machines, that is what they were used for: astrology, not astronomy.

That isnt rule. There were people who argued that we are orbiting around sun and that sun is fire ball. There are people who argued that moon is planet. Ancient greeks. Im sure you know their names if not I could mention them.

There are pepole who argued that stars were another suns.

Not all think on Mars as warrior.

Whats ascendent theory?

Edited by the L

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That isnt rule. There were people who argued that we are orbiting aroun sun and sun is planet. There are people who argued that moon is planet. Ancient greeks. Im sure you know their names if not I could mention them.

Whats ascendent theory?

As I told you a million times: It does not matter what you think, it matters what you can demonstrate. Archimedes "could" have build a atomic bomb, he had everything he needed....except the need. And that is what it always comes down to: Was there a need for large scale need for open water navigation? No? Then there was no need to break your head about exact time. Was there international quick long distance communication? No? Well then time was irrelevant, you got there when you got there and so on.

Things, all through history, have not been made because they could (or could not) but because there was an immediate benefit or a need for it.

Speculating on all that "could have happened beyond what is demonstrable" is an exercise for those without any meaningful tasks to occupy themselves with.I don't fall in that category.

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As I told you a million times: It does not matter what you think, it matters what you can demonstrate. Archimedes "could" have build a atomic bomb, he had everything he needed....except the need. And that is what it always comes down to: Was there a need for large scale need for open water navigation? No? Then there was no need to break your head about exact time. Was there international quick long distance communication? No? Well then time was irrelevant, you got there when you got there and so on.

Things, all through history, have not been made because they could (or could not) but because there was an immediate benefit or a need for it.

Speculating on all that "could have happened beyond what is demonstrable" is an exercise for those without any meaningful tasks to occupy themselves with.I don't fall in that category.

Thats exactly where Im going. We found something like watch on ship. So I thought why not.

Also how do you know that there wasnt long distance communications?

Roman artifacts in Vietnam and Japan.

Greeks who went northen of UK.

Phoenicians and Chartageans...

I dont know but I learnt that there were big distance travels. Also can provide more info. It depends what do you found big distance travels.

Edited by the L

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It looks as though the ancients could have had an industrial revolution but didn't. Could widespread slavery have been a reason?

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It looks as though the ancients could have had an industrial revolution but didn't. Could widespread slavery have been a reason?

Slavery was abolished after steam engiene. British empire abolished it. Some empires much earlier then BE. But credit goes to them.

@Questionmark,

You need to sail more to India then to America.

Edited by the L

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It looks as though the ancients could have had an industrial revolution but didn't. Could widespread slavery have been a reason?

Slavery or not (because there were ancient civilization where slavery was not a economical factor, like ancient Egypt) it mostly did not happen because they were lacking the means of communication to sell in a large scale. If a pottery artisan can sell 50 vases a month he is not going to marter his brain how he can build 500. The typical example is the steam engine, the first functional one was build by a French guy named Papin (besides the Aeropile by Heron of Alexandria, of course), but that machine was a flop. 50 years later Watt did the same thing and advanced to millionaire.

Slavery was abolished after steam engiene. British empire abolished it. Some empires much earlier then BE. But credit goes to them.

@Questionmark,

You need to sail more to India then to America.

And you have a coast to stick to all of the way. a very good navigation reference.

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And you have a coast to stick to all of the way. a very good navigation reference.

Yes but Dutch sailed trough India ocean. Also do you know how Europeans reinvented way around Africa and went step by step. And built pillars as they progressed.(Portugal). Clock might be useful.

Dutch use clock for that travel. And if you went once on open Med sea and use clock and found out adventages you can do copy paste tech on Ocean.

Also Britain is island. As Azores. As many others.

Vietnam seems far. Japan seems far.

Edited by the L

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