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Abramelin

The Incas, explorers of the Pacific

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Towards the origin of America’s first settlers

(...)

The paper also identifies lineage which has not been described to date in North and Central American populations: C-M217 (C3*) haplotype, which occur at high frequency in Asia. Moreover, experts detected a Polynesian lineage in Peru.

http://archaeologyne...ml#.UXg7EUq674Y

The next article throws a bit of doubt into the theory of ancient Polynesians settling in South America:

http://www.nature.com/news/dna-study-links-indigenous-brazilians-to-polynesians-1.12710

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I think Sir William Jones saw what he wanted to see.

Their greatest festival was called Inti Raymi, or Festival of the Sun

The name Inti Raymi comes from the Quechua language: inti means “sun” and raymi means “festival.”

http://www.classzone...inti_raymi.html

It is called Inti Raymi currently, the meanings you give for the words are modern peruvian word meanings.The timing is uncannily similar to the celberation of Diwali and the return of Rama in India.

http://www.hinduwisd...m#Introduction:

This link highlights a series of simmilarities between the Vedic and Mayan peoples. There is a bit of nationalistic exxagerations but many of the points and quotes are well put.

The elephant motiff in Mayan art is again an anomaly as there are no elephants in South America.

Edited by Harsh86_Patel

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An interesting comparison from the Veda and Mahabharata:

The Mayas were Nagas

mayanaga.gif

Mex_his5.gif There is definitely an important connection between the old Vedic people and Maya-ancestors. The Mayas are actually referred to in the Mahabharata, one of the main Hindu scriptures, as a tribe having left the Indian subcontinent. There are sources who have revealed those people to be the same as the Nagas, one of the oldest Indian tribes recorded. Those Nagas seem to have been a people, later called Danavas, with a capital Nagapur. They are referred to in another main Hindu-scripture, the Ramayana, as belonging to a Naga-Maya tribe, who is said to have transmitted their culture towards Babylonia, Egypt and Greece (source: Una Vision del Mundo, Prof. G. Zapata Alonzo, Merida, Mexico, 1994, p.71)

These findings point again to Bharat (India's subcontinent) as the cradle-land and pioneering force in the establishment of earth's main civilisations.

There are actually a lot of very interesting correlations:

  • There are a lot of similarities between the native Maya language and counting system and the parallel Naga systems. There are similar correlations between other Asian languages as f.i. Japanese (!) and Maya. And some old sanskrit texts were found in Yucatan, Mexico.
  • There are a lot of parallel symbols used in both Indian and Maya-culture: the snake (actually referring to the Khi, life energy), Ganesh (the elephant god), the swastika (symbol of cyclic time), solar cosmoglives, ideograms etc... The word Maya in Hindu philosophy refers to the word of illusion, but also to the origin of the world; the sanskrit term is related to great, magic, mother.
  • Going to the Greek-Egyptian civilisations: have you ever compared the arch of the Agamemnon tomb or palace and the ones you can find inUxmal?
  • The cyclic time approaches omnipresent in both cultures. The understanding of the 'kalpas' had both a scientific but first and foremost a spiritual inspiration. Arguelles refers to it as follows "The common root and interest in chronocosmology of Vedic and Maya is also seen in the cultivation of yoga (Sanskrit: divine union) and yok-hah (Maya: higher truth).

Mayan: A Sino-Tibetan Language? A Comparative Study

by Bede Fahey

Taken together, the evidence speaks for an early presence in Mesoamerica of a people whose

language was fully Sinitic.

http://www.sino-plat...an_language.pdf

The word "Maya" and what it may mean and how it is used:

http://www.belize.com/maya-or-mayan

Various etymologies have been proposed for the name “Maya”. It may possibly come from the word ma'ya'ab which means ‘few, a little bit’, that is ‘(place) where few people live’ or from the word ma'yaan ja' ‘waterless (place)’, or from máay ja' ‘(place of) sedimented water’. Whatever the true etymology is, the name became attached to the Mayab, the area we know as the Yucatán Peninsula, and various other forms of the word refer to the Yucatecan people and their language, and the language family and civilizations associated with them.

http://www-01.sil.or...ei-mayaMayo.htm

++

Please forget about Arguelles and his fantasy theories: he was the one responsible for all the new age Maya 2012 crap.

++

Yes, the Mayan (and Incan) and Eastern mediterranean arches: both based on not knowing how to build a proper round (Roman) arch.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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It is called Inti Raymi currently, the meanings you give for the words are modern peruvian word meanings.The timing is uncannily similar to the celberation of Diwali and the return of Rama in India.

http://www.hinduwisd...m#Introduction:

This link highlights a series of simmilarities between the Vedic and Mayan peoples. There is a bit of nationalistic exxagerations but many of the points and quotes are well put.

The elephant motiff in Mayan art is again an anomaly as there are no elephants in South America.

It was called Inti Raymi during the Spanish Conquest.

What you call "modern Peruvian" is traditional Quechua with Spanish loanwords.

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It was called Inti Raymi during the Spanish Conquest.

What you call "modern Peruvian" is traditional Quechua with Spanish loanwords.

And the Spanish did a lot of making up of the local culture that they ultimately dominated and almost destroyed.

Bunch of Spanish looters would hardly be able to understand what was the cultural significance of most of the Mayan festivals/art.

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And the Spanish did a lot of making up of the local culture that they ultimately dominated and almost destroyed.

Bunch of Spanish looters would hardly be able to understand what was the cultural significance of most of the Mayan festivals/art.

Alas, there were chroniclers of Incan descent who really spoke and understood their own language.

And if you ever visit Peru, you will soon find out that much of the Peruvian form of Catholicism is nothing but their own traditional beliefs hiding under a 'Christian veneer'.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Maybe it was the other way round the i.e the polynesians who are very similar to south east asians genetically could have colonised South America in the ancient past, the south american ancients were often potryaed with features like almond eyes, flat noses very similar to the south east asian peoples.

The explorer that you talk about could have gone to Africa where he found the black people, and it would be a more logical choice to go in a direction that you are not aware of to explore i.e they might have been in contact previously with South East asians and polynesians, and they could have known of their decendence from them.

I do believe that Polynesian tribes settled in South America, but that's not the same as 'colonized'. It appears there is only one small tribe, living in Brazil (the Botocudo people), who could have descended from Polynesians, and it is not even sure when that happened: some say they were Polynesian slaves that were brought to Brazil in colonial times.

But assuming Tupac Inca Yupanqui went as far as Africa is a bit of a stretch. Those 'black people' he had heard about could have been Polynesians from for instance the Solomon Islands. He stayed away for almost a year, so that may have been possible.

Someone from the Solomon islands:

solomon-island-people01.jpg

"the south american ancients were often potryaed with features like almond eyes, flat noses very similar to the south east asian peoples."

Really? Please show me a photo of how they were being portrayed in South America.

I'll give you some examples (Mochica):

Peruvian_Mochica_Head_Portrait_Chicago_Art_Institute_Illinois.jpg

cultura_mochica.jpg

Edited by Abramelin
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I'd be interested to have the date setting explained.11.jpg

The date setting? What do you mean?

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Alas, there were chroniclers of Incan descent who really spoke and understood their own language.

And if you ever visit Peru, you will soon find out that much of the Peruvian form of Catholicism is nothing but their own traditional beliefs hiding under a 'Christian veneer'.

.

Irrespective of who the chroniclers were, the editing was done by the Spanish, and i in general have a problem believing religious fanatics and people who come with imperialism and loot in their mind.

I can imagine how the snake imagary everywhere must have sent shivers down their Spanish spines.

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too much heaven on their mind ....

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Irrespective of who the chroniclers were, the editing was done by the Spanish, and i in general have a problem believing religious fanatics and people who come with imperialism and loot in their mind.

I can imagine how the snake imagary everywhere must have sent shivers down their Spanish spines.

Where did you get that from (see bolded line)?

.

Edited by Abramelin

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About the Solomon Islands:

Patagonia: A Cultural History - Chris Moss

http://books.google....upanqui&f=false

Incas_SolomonIslands_zps6d7ce87d.jpg

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Sorry for the almond eyes..flat nose comment....was thinking of something else, my bad.

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Sorry for the almond eyes..flat nose comment....was thinking of something else, my bad.

You were thinking of the Olmecs, I know..

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The elephant motiff in Mayan art is again an anomaly as there are no elephants in South America.

There's also no Mayan art in South America, lol.

But about those elephants:

Remains of Cuvieronius were found in association with man, and pieces of its hide and muscle tissue have been found in Chile: “The site has also yielded 38 small pieces of animal hide and muscle tissue, some still preserved on bones of Cuvieronius. Pieces of hide also were recovered from hearth areas, living floors, and wooden structural remains. Some pieces were still attached to wooden poles, possible suggesting the presence of hide-draped huts. Pathological and other analyses of these pieces suggest that they are also of a proboscidean.” South American fossils formerly attributed to mastodons are now believed to be Cuvieronius.

The related Stegomastodon occupied warmer, lower-altitude habitats in South America, while the smaller C. hyodon occupied cooler, higher-altitude Andean habitats. It has been C14 dated to as recently as 6,060 BP in Yumbo, Valle del Cauca, Colombia.

Cuvieronius was a mixed feeder, and has been dated at least as recently as 9,100 BP in Monte Verde, Chile. By the end of the Pleistocene, the northern limit of the range of Cuvieronius was in Mexico.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuvieronius

This is from a Dutch Wiki:

Volgens sommige bronnen overleefde Cuvieronius in het Andes-gebergte tot in de vijfde eeuw na Christus, waarna door overbejaging door de Indianen ook deze soort uitstierf.

Transl.:

According to some sources Cuvieronius survived in the Andes Mountains to the fifth century AD, after which also this species went extinct, because of overhunting by the Indians.

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuvieronius

From a Bulgarian Wiki:

Така много плацентни бозайници навлезли в Южна Америка. Наскоро се появиха предположения на някои учени, че южноамериканските слонове не са напълно изчезнали и малобройна популация все още живее в неизследваните части на Амазония. Тези предположения се базират на разказите на местните индиански племена, но засега няма доказателства за съществуването на този вид в наши дни

Transl.:

Recently, there has been speculation of some scholars that the South American elephants did not completely disappear and that a sparse population still lives in unexplored parts of the Amazon. These assumptions are based on the stories of the local tribes, but so far there is no evidence of this kind nowadays.

http://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%AE%D0%B6%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BD

Description

About 2.7 meters tall at the shoulder. Cuvieronius is famous for being one of the few prehistoric elephants (the only other documented example is Stegomastodon) to have colonized South America, taking advantage of the "Great American Interchange" that connected North and South America a few million years ago. This smallish elephant was distinguished by its long, spiraling tusks, reminiscent of those found on a narwhal.

It is difficult to pin down an exact extinction date for Cuvieronius, but carbon dating has revealed that Cuvieronius was alive during the Holocene as recently as a few thousand years ago. Remains of what seem to have been Cuvieronius have also been found in association with early human settlements (particularly well known examples from Chile), suggesting that Cuvieronius was quite possibly hunted by early humans. In fact human hunting is the theory that is most often proposed as the explanation for the extinction of Cuvieronius.

http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/9827245/1/

Worth noting that other elephant species have existed in biblical times and in about 1500BC a species of elephant <Elephas maximus rubridens) in Northern China was still to be found. Indeed some mastodons (Cuvieronius postremus) in South America died out in 400 AD.

http://velorum.ballarat.edu.au/~isedgman/html/animals.htm

Unseres Erachtens hängt das Vorkommen

von Mastodon und anderer pliozäner Faunenelemente im

Pleistozän bloß von lokalen Bedingungen ab (vgl. Vorkommen

von Mastodon cuvieronius postremus in Ekuador in den ersten

geschichtlichen Jahrhunderten).

Transl.:

In our opinion the presence of Mastodon

and other Pliocene faunal elements in the

Pleistocene depends only on local conditions (cf. occurrence

Mastodon cuvieronius postremus in Ecuador in the first

centuries AD).

http://www.landesmuseum.at/pdf_frei_remote/SBAWW_158_0763-0787.pdf

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Harsh, a question: if people from India came to the Americas, settled there and influenced American native culture, how would that show up in American DNA?

I agree with you there are several really amazing similarities between ancient Indian culture and American (=> Meso American) culture, but if these contacts were extensive and maybe lasting for some centuries, we should be able to see that in the genetical record, right?

I couldn't find anything.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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There is no elephant motive in Mayan artwork.

There are stylized macaws that fringers claim are elephants.

Harte

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There is no elephant motive in Mayan artwork.

There are stylized macaws that fringers claim are elephants.

Harte

Hmmmm...

What do you think of this:

elephants.jpg

That's one giant macaw.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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Hmmmm...

What do you think of this:

elephants.jpg

That's one giant macaw..

Not really, when you consider it's part of a headdress, as you can see in the pic at left.

It's a macaw, alright. The words "King 18 Rabbit is in the guise of the "Macaw Mountain Lord." are carved on the stela.

Don't fall for fringe arguments.

You ever seen scales like that around an elephant eye?

Ever looked at a macaw?

The macaw is all over Mayan mythology, as is the jaguar.

Funny, they don't mention elephants.

Those tiny guys with the macaw are called "ways." They are little spirit creatures and they regularly accompany Mayan rulers. You can find them in other motifs riding snakes as well.

Harte

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Hmmmm...

What do you think of this:

elephants.jpg

That's one giant macaw.

.

Omg. I remember having a big argument about the elephant/macaw issue with harte many years back.

and i agree its a macaw not an elephant.

The photo was photoshopped of course!!

Elephants in the Americas

09.jpg

Elephant trunks in Central America. In the ruins of the Mayan city of Copán (Honduras). Courtesy of Jaime Errázuriz, in Cuenca del Pacífico: 4.000 años de contactos culturales.

11.jpg

Stele with elephant in Ecuador. Stone slab with inscription written in Libyan, with an elephant in the upper part. Found in Ecuador, established as dating from 300 BC. Courtesy of Heinke Sudhoff, (Sorry Kolumbus).

huh? libyans in Eucador?? Is it a Fake?

Elephants in the Americas

09.jpg

Elephant trunks in Central America. In the ruins of the Mayan city of Copán (Honduras). Courtesy of Jaime Errázuriz, in Cuenca del Pacífico: 4.000 años de contactos culturales.

11.jpg

Stele with elephant in Ecuador. Stone slab with inscription written in Libyan, with an elephant in the upper part. Found in Ecuador, established as dating from 300 BC. Courtesy of Heinke Sudhoff, (Sorry Kolumbus).

huh? libyans in Eucador?? Is it a Fake?

QUOTE(Harte @ Oct 9 2007, 01:45 AM)

The one on the tablet is a tapir.

The ones in the carving are stylized macaws, a common motif in Mayan art.

image34.png

See it in #8 above

Image is from THIS WEBPAGE.

Harte

Harte, perhaps that guy who identified the carving as macaws was low in eye sight. but i believe still that those are elephants.

and it was good Ol' Question Mark who set the track correct by pointing out that the photo i had posted was a fake - the macaw idol was with the beak broken off, but the fake was the statue next to it, was added to the photo.

QUOTE(coredrill @ Oct 9 2007, 04:20 PM)

No ?....i am not at meaning about the monkey like thing...but about this

09.jpg

I am sure you won't like this, but that sculpture does not exist in Copan, see here:

http://www.mayaruins.com/copan/copan_map.html

Seemingly it was supposed to be a an elephant, my bad. But the photo is a fake. The smiling monkey should have

told us something.....

ED: I forgot, the model for this fake was evidently Stela D

Edited by The_Spartan
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a1_1118.jpg

The restoration job here looks botched up ... I wish they'll just leave things alone and leave it to the professional restorers.

That thing just looks sad ....

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LOL. so I was fooled.

Thanks everyone.

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Where did you get that from (see bolded line)?

.

Isn't it obvious.

Who put out english/spanish translations of the native sources first?

Who exploited these people and continue to propound their versions of the same texts for centuries?

Now when we read these sources, they have already been propounded as the correct version for centuries. I belive there must have been a lot of distortion some intentional and some unintentional done by the early Spanish.

Foe eg- the Human sacrifice issue was blown up and given as a proof of these people being barbaric and demonic and was used to almost exterminate them by the conquestedors. I don't think these early spanish looters would have had the right intellectual capability and frame of mind to report correct versions of the actual cultural practices and their significance prevalent in those times ignoring their personal bais and supremacist mentality.

Edited by Harsh86_Patel
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Not really, when you consider it's part of a headdress, as you can see in the pic at left.

It's a macaw, alright. The words "King 18 Rabbit is in the guise of the "Macaw Mountain Lord." are carved on the stela.

Don't fall for fringe arguments.

You ever seen scales like that around an elephant eye?

Ever looked at a macaw?

The macaw is all over Mayan mythology, as is the jaguar.

Funny, they don't mention elephants.

Those tiny guys with the macaw are called "ways." They are little spirit creatures and they regularly accompany Mayan rulers. You can find them in other motifs riding snakes as well.

Harte

Another stylised Macaw for you Harte, can you see the scales on the ears and the trunk?

dp2086872.jpg

P.S.- regarding the motiff you commented on,The scales as you claim them to be are not around the eyes, they are around the ear. Domseticated elephants usually headresses as a decorations and some headress had bird feathers and scales as well.

Edited by Harsh86_Patel

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Harsh, a question: if people from India came to the Americas, settled there and influenced American native culture, how would that show up in American DNA?

I agree with you there are several really amazing similarities between ancient Indian culture and American (=> Meso American) culture, but if these contacts were extensive and maybe lasting for some centuries, we should be able to see that in the genetical record, right?

I couldn't find anything.

.

Abe peoples/traditions from India may have migrated to south east Asia and from there on to South America through polynesia.

Now there are two possibilities according to me, the people actually migrated from India or the traditions were passed on and were carried across.

The genetic data will be relevant only once we can determine when such a migration happened, if it happened say in 12000 BC when the global population was relatively low and an entire tribe decided to leave a particular geographic location and move to another for whatever reason, then the particular geneitc traits carried by the tribe will dissappear from location A and appear at the Destination location B. When we would try to analyse current gentic data, it would seem to us that the two peoples i.e the ones still found in location A but of a different tribe and the ones found in Location B are not genetically related.I would be vary of the migrations hypothesis based on Gentic data alone for the same reason.

A genetic link would not be necessary if only the tradition and culture was propogated. For example the ramayan is known almost throughout south east Asia, and there are variations observed.

Southeast Asian versions

220px-Balinese_Ramayan-Sita_and_Hanuman.jpg

magnify-clip.pngHanuman discover Shinta in her captive in Lanka depicted in Balinese dance.

170px-Ramayana_Java.jpg

magnify-clip.pngLakshmana, Rama andShinta during their exile inDandaka Forest depicted inJavanese dance.

Many other Asian cultures have adapted the Ramayana, resulting in other national epics. In Indonesia, Kakawin Ramayana is an oldJavanese rendering; Yogesvara Ramayana is attributed to the scribe Yogesvara circa 9th century CE, who was employed in the court of the Medang in Central Java. It has 2774 stanzas in manipravala style, a mixture of Sanskrit and Kawi language. The most influential version of the Ramayana is the Ravanavadham of Bhatti, popularly known as Bhattikavya. The Javanese Ramayana differs markedly from the original Hindu prototype. The 9th century Javanese Kakawin Ramayana has become the reference of Ramayana in the neighboring island of Bali. The bas reliefs of Ramayana and Krishnayana scenes is carved on balustrades wall of 9th centuryPrambanan temples in Yogyakarta. In Indonesia, Ramayana has been integrated into local culture especially those of Javanese,Balinese and Sundanese, and has become the source of moral and spiritual guidance as well as aesthetic expression and also entertainment. Cultural performances such as Wayang shadow puppet and traditional dances often took their story from Ramayana. In Bali as well as in Java, the dances based on the episode of Ramayana often performed in temples such as Prambanan in Java andPura in Bali.

Phra Lak Phra Lam is a Lao language version, whose title comes from Lakshmana and Rama. The story of Lakshmana and Rama is told as the previous life of the Buddha. In Hikayat Seri Rama of Malaysia, Dasharatha is the great-grandson of the Prophet Adam. Ravana receives boons from Allah instead of Brahma.[71] In many Malay language versions, Lakshmana is given greater importance than Rama, whose character is considered somewhat weak.[citation needed]

220px-Khon_Dance_Frankfurt_Germany_2006.jpg

magnify-clip.pngThe Thai retelling of the tale, theRamakien, is popularly expressed in traditional regional dance theatre.

170px-Burmese_Ramayana_dance.jpg

magnify-clip.pngRama (Yama) and Sita (Me Thida) in the Burmese version of the Ramayana, Yama Zatdaw

The Cambodian version of Ramayana, the Reamker, is the most famous story of Khmer Literature since the Funan era. It adapts the Hindu concepts to Buddhist themes and shows the balance of good and evil in the world. The Reamker has several differences from the original Ramayana, including scenes not included in the original and emphasis on Hanuman and Sovanna Maccha, a retelling which influences the Thai and Lao versions. Reamker in Cambodia is not confined to the realm of literature but extends to all Cambodian art forms, such as sculpture, Khmer classical dance, theatre known as Lakhorn Luang (the foundation of the royal ballet),poetry and the mural and bas reliefs seen at the Silver Pagoda and Angkor wat.

Thailand's popular national epic Ramakien (Thai: รามเกียรติ์, from Sanskrit rāmakīrti, "Glory of Rama") is derived from the Hindu epic. In Ramakien, Sita is the daughter of Ravana and Mandodari (Thotsakan and Montho). Vibhisana (Phiphek), the astrologer brother of Ravana, predicts calamity from the horoscope of Sita. Ravana has her thrown into the water, who, later, is picked by Janaka (Chanok). While the main story is identical to that of the Ramayana, many other aspects were transposed into a Thai context, such as the clothes, weapons, topography, and elements of nature, which are described as being Thai in style. It has an expanded role for Hanuman and he is portrayed as a lascivious character. Ramakien can be seen in an elaborate illustration at Wat Phra Kaew in Bangkok.

Other Southeast Asian adaptations include Ramakavaca of Bali (Indonesia), Maharadia Lawana and Darangen of Mindanao (Philippines), and the Yama Zatdaw of Myanmar.

[edit]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramayana

The interpretation of current genetic data in context of mapping ancient migrations or relations between ancient peoples, is not a very accurate science as of now. There are a series of assumptions involved for eg- in what point of time a particular indicator mutation in a particular gene has been thought to occur etc.I had put out a list of these in one of my posts will try to link it here.

All we can comment open is based on cultural similarities and certain ancient texts that may hold clues to such migrations if they occured.

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