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Occum's Razor = some Crop Circles are 'real'

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Occum's Razor and Newton's definition in respect of considering a phenomena says we must only consider factors that are TRUE

And "aliens are coming here and grafittiing in our cereal" is true?

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And "aliens are coming here and grafittiing in our cereal" is true?

Your use of the term 'aliens' fails to convey the mystery of the fact that we are dealing with a phenomena which in some cases is just of unknown origin but beyond human capability

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There are a number of phenomena associated with some crop circles that do not seem to fit with the notion that they are all man-made. Prominent among these, are witness reports of circles created in a very brief amount of time. One need not evoke the Stonehenge Julia Set example, which has been disputed by some. There are other cases of this sort.

There is also the matter of numerous reports of electronic devices malfunctioning or inexplicably being drained of power when they are taken into a crop circle.

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There are a number of phenomena associated with some crop circles that do not seem to fit with the notion that they are all man-made. Prominent among these, are witness reports of circles created in a very brief amount of time. One need not evoke the Stonehenge Julia Set example, which has been disputed by some. There are other cases of this sort.

There is also the matter of numerous reports of electronic devices malfunctioning or inexplicably being drained of power when they are taken into a crop circle.

Yes but the number of times these things have happened compared to the total number of crop circles would relegate these incidents to mere anomalies and as such not indicative of a 'pattern' that could be used to promote a theory. Unless of course the anomalous nature of these incidents could be accounted for.

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I quite like this one to be honest!

post-135078-0-23583100-1359415893_thumb.

But I really dont think its aliens...

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Your use of the term 'aliens' fails to convey the mystery of the fact that we are dealing with a phenomena which in some cases is just of unknown origin but beyond human capability

Well "unknown intelligences" covers a multitude of sins - and happy includes the group upon whom I lay blame, human hoaxers.

Aliens serves to encompass the group to which you ascribe agency - non-human intelligences. Six letters as opposed to 21 and a symbol. Brevity isn't a sin I'm usually guilty of, but laziness is.

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Yes but the number of times these things have happened compared to the total number of crop circles would relegate these incidents to mere anomalies and as such not indicative of a 'pattern' that could be used to promote a theory. Unless of course the anomalous nature of these incidents could be accounted for.

It's not really clear to me how unusual it is for some anomalistic phenomenon to be associated with a crop circle. It might not be all that uncommon. At least where extremely rapid formation of a clearly artificial pattern is involved, so rapid that any human action is ruled out, some other form of intelligence appears to be indicated. If this is so in even one crop circle, it is not unreasonable that it may well be so in many. The creation of most crop circles is apparently not observed.

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It's not really clear to me how unusual it is for some anomalistic phenomenon to be associated with a crop circle. It might not be all that uncommon. At least where extremely rapid formation of a clearly artificial pattern is involved, so rapid that any human action is ruled out, some other form of intelligence appears to be indicated. If this is so in even one crop circle, it is not unreasonable that it may well be so in many. The creation of most crop circles is apparently not observed.

Are there examples of these rapid formations that you can provide? A 'rapid formation' in a few minutes, I'd be impressed with. An overnight 'rapid formation', not so much.

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Agnostic is probably the only sensibile position with our present level of knowledge, but that level of knowledge is growing all the time as new discoveries are made. One major problem with some religions is that they promise reward in the 'afterlife' if people do what they are told in this life. As we see from history and even today this can be used to get people to carry out acts that we could only class as inhumane and evil. It also tends to create a 'them' and 'us' attitude which divides humanity instead of trying to bring it together, the tale of the Good Samaritan, if it was indeed told by Jesus, is an example of how your neighbour should be treated whether they are part of your group or not. As I am sure you are aware the dispute between the southern kingdom of Judah and the northern Samaria was a major issue at the time of Christ but Samaritans feature in some very important bible events.

The afterlife far outdates any text. Funeral rituals date back to Neanderthal man. These final resting places were adorned with foods and materials for use in the afterlife. Common theme too, I guess nobody is keen to head to this glorious afterlife that some of us convince ourselves exists. It's a nice thought, but reality is closer. And this is across species too, most certainly not unique to man, as such, the Gods you feel Sumer referred to I think just might of had some Gods of their own.

Since we now know that the creation story of the bible OT is deeply flawed we have to consider where it came from and the origins seem often to be Sumer a fact that was obviously covered up until recent times. The Sumerians had a very different view of deities, which were both male and female, and it was we hear the Goddess who created human kind and the way this was done does sound like a bit of genetic manipulation. Genetic studies today seem to show that our origins are from just a very few individuals. Who were these deities who the Sumerian creation story tell us created humans? Where did they come from with maybe a knowledge of genetics?

The Sumerians tell us they 'came down' and we have to consider if they were not of this Earth, do we not?

Hang on, you are saying the Bible was not interpreted correctly, and the original stories are genuine? Because the Deities had 2 sexes?

People can make a pork chop sound like it was genetically manipulated, Fact is we are not. We have along history, and all of our DNA comes "Out Of Africa". Globals random testing has been done to support this very fact. Genetic manipulation would show up in fossil record, it does not.

Nobody "created" humans. It was a long arduous journey, roughly beginning with Lucy, Australopithecus. We do not have to guess between the Bible and Sumer, wer have bones, transitional fossils and DNA. That is enough to explain us. No Deities, nor Aliens required.

This is relevant to the crop circle issue because if we accept that we MAY have been visited in the distant past we COULD be getting messages from an extraterrestrial source and there are indications that all crop designs are not of human design and construction. Time for an open mind maybe?

Open mind? How about considering the fossil record, and base explanations that fit into what we have to guide us, like historical record? WHy guess and make stuff up when nature left us a record, all we have to do is learn how to read it, as we slowly are?

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The afterlife far outdates any text. Funeral rituals date back to Neanderthal man. These final resting places were adorned with foods and materials for use in the afterlife. Common theme too, I guess nobody is keen to head to this glorious afterlife that some of us convince ourselves exists. It's a nice thought, but reality is closer. And this is across species too, most certainly not unique to man, as such, the Gods you feel Sumer referred to I think just might of had some Gods of their own.

Hang on, you are saying the Bible was not interpreted correctly, and the original stories are genuine? Because the Deities had 2 sexes?

People can make a pork chop sound like it was genetically manipulated, Fact is we are not. We have along history, and all of our DNA comes "Out Of Africa". Globals random testing has been done to support this very fact. Genetic manipulation would show up in fossil record, it does not.

Nobody "created" humans. It was a long arduous journey, roughly beginning with Lucy, Australopithecus. We do not have to guess between the Bible and Sumer, wer have bones, transitional fossils and DNA. That is enough to explain us. No Deities, nor Aliens required.

Open mind? How about considering the fossil record, and base explanations that fit into what we have to guide us, like historical record? WHy guess and make stuff up when nature left us a record, all we have to do is learn how to read it, as we slowly are?

The belief in a possible afterlife is rather different from a belief that if we follow certain dogmas it will affect that possible afterlife. There are many unkowns about how modern man started and developed but now that the biblical accounts have been shown to be stories based on earlier myths and legends it is worthwhile looking at those myths and legends to see if they offer any clues. External influence is a common factor which has to be considered.

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The belief in a possible afterlife is rather different from a belief that if we follow certain dogmas it will affect that possible afterlife. There are many unkowns about how modern man started and developed but now that the biblical accounts have been shown to be stories based on earlier myths and legends it is worthwhile looking at those myths and legends to see if they offer any clues. External influence is a common factor which has to be considered.

I do not think it is different, I think some realised that valuable things can be a means of controlling some people. Immortality has been sought as long as man has been able to understand the concept. Be it a fountain of youth pf a God, it's the same means to an end. Some people used immortality to direct people, which I feel no doubt evolved into religion.

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I do not think it is different, I think some realised that valuable things can be a means of controlling some people. Immortality has been sought as long as man has been able to understand the concept. Be it a fountain of youth pf a God, it's the same means to an end. Some people used immortality to direct people, which I feel no doubt evolved into religion.

It is the carrot and the stick means of control that is the problem; so in our hopefully enlightened age we will not need to threaten others, including our children, with dire consequences if they do not conform to dogma nor promise them afterlife benefits if they do; neither can be substantiated.

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Are there examples of these rapid formations that you can provide? A 'rapid formation' in a few minutes, I'd be impressed with. An overnight 'rapid formation', not so much.

Tried several times to provide links to examples of very rapidly formed crop circles. Checked and rechecked addresses, which are valid. This site does not seem to be accepting links from me today. Edited by bison

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It is the carrot and the stick means of control that is the problem; so in our hopefully enlightened age we will not need to threaten others, including our children, with dire consequences if they do not conform to dogma nor promise them afterlife benefits if they do; neither can be substantiated.

The West has been moving in this direction for several hundred years, beginning with Thirty Years war. That challenged religion and put democracy in place as a ruling entity. Religion today noticeably is losing it's stronghold. People like Dawkins would have been burned at the stake 100 years ago. It is a slow process, but eventual.

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Tried several times to provide links to examples of very rapidly formed crop circles. Checked and rechecked addresses, which are valid. This site does not seem to be accepting links from me today.

Follow up on my quoted post, above. Using the search term: 'eyewitness crop circles' at Google brings up a number of instances where witnesses reported the formation of crop circle in an anomalous manner, and in too brief a time to admit of a human cause.

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Follow up on my quoted post, above. Using the search term: 'eyewitness crop circles' at Google brings up a number of instances where witnesses reported the formation of crop circle in an anomalous manner, and in too brief a time to admit of a human cause.

If we accept that a non terrestial source for some crop circles is a reasonable opinion then we must ask ourselves what is the message that they may be trying to convey? and why now? There have been occasional possible examples in the past but many many examples in recent years of which some are clearly human creations but many must not be. Are we at a particularly significant moment in time? Looking at our world today and the many problems that we face this might be the case.

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If we accept that a non terrestial source for some crop circles is a reasonable opinion then we must ask ourselves what is the message that they may be trying to convey? and why now? There have been occasional possible examples in the past but many many examples in recent years of which some are clearly human creations but many must not be. Are we at a particularly significant moment in time? Looking at our world today and the many problems that we face this might be the case.

Are we in a special time, right now? Could be. It looks as if we're somewhere in the middle of a process of getting in contact with the rest of the galaxy.

The general theme of crop circles is, of course, circles, and various modifications and combinations of them. A circle can stand for a complete entity, like a planet.

First we typically saw single circles, like a lone planet in space. More recently, two circles joined by a line were often seen, frequently compared to a 'dumbell'. This seemed to refer to a tentative connection between two worlds.

Lately we've see patterns with overlapping circles. This seems to point to a more profound connection. Such patterns also contain new shapes, like crescents, and vesica pisces (like a cartoon of a fish, but without the fins) This seems to suggest the synergism of two worlds sharing, and producing something new; more than simply the sum of the two formerly separate parts.

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Are we in a special time, right now? Could be. It looks as if we're somewhere in the middle of a process of getting in contact with the rest of the galaxy.

The general theme of crop circles is, of course, circles, and various modifications and combinations of them. A circle can stand for a complete entity, like a planet.

First we typically saw single circles, like a lone planet in space. More recently, two circles joined by a line were often seen, frequently compared to a 'dumbell'. This seemed to refer to a tentative connection between two worlds.

Lately we've see patterns with overlapping circles. This seems to point to a more profound connection. Such patterns also contain new shapes, like crescents, and vesica pisces (like a cartoon of a fish, but without the fins) This seems to suggest the synergism of two worlds sharing, and producing something new; more than simply the sum of the two formerly separate parts.

Two overlapping circles you mention... have a look at the web site of David Furlong with details of his book 'The Keys to the Temple' in which he found two overlapping circles on the Marlborough Downs in Wiltshire which seem to date back to at least 3000 BCE and have geometric links that he shows relate to the Great Pyramid in Egypt. The area in which he found these circles is the centre of crop circle activity in the world. The dimensions of the 'vesica pisces' he discovered is critical to his discoveries and to the identification of a focal point ( Temple Farm) which is a key location in a very ancient design of landscape geometry which is just coming to light with very profound implications. It is true, we have ancient landscape geometry set out at least 5000 years ago which required an intelligence and knowledge far beyond our present understanding of those times.

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Not sure if you understand the difference of implausibility between human generated crop circles and advanced aliens travelling the cosmos to draw circles in the grass AKA pee in the snow. I've always wondered what it feels like to thumb my nose at logic like that.

Just because you deduce crop circles to 'aliens peeing in the snow' doesn't make it such. Maybe to you aliens creating crop circles isn't logical. Then again, maybe 'thumbing your nose' and being a 'slave2 fate' isn't very logical to the aliens either. There is most certainly undeniable evidence that cannot be explained and gets shrugged off and swept under the rug because there truly is no way to explain how the **** these gigantic ******* elaborate, symetrical shapes and figures spring up over night. Instead of belittling compelling evidence, why don't you actually try to make sense of it. The sensible reasoning to come to is that people ARE NOT running around with micro-wave guns. Aliens sounds WAY more plausible than that

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Just because you deduce crop circles to 'aliens peeing in the snow' doesn't make it such. Maybe to you aliens creating crop circles isn't logical. Then again, maybe 'thumbing your nose' and being a 'slave2 fate' isn't very logical to the aliens either. There is most certainly undeniable evidence that cannot be explained and gets shrugged off and swept under the rug because there truly is no way to explain how the **** these gigantic ******* elaborate, symetrical shapes and figures spring up over night. Instead of belittling compelling evidence, why don't you actually try to make sense of it. The sensible reasoning to come to is that people ARE NOT running around with micro-wave guns. Aliens sounds WAY more plausible than that

Microwaves do not explain anything, that study was flawed.

Aliens do not sounds more plausible than circle makers, and they have examples to boot.

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Just because you deduce crop circles to 'aliens peeing in the snow' doesn't make it such. Maybe to you aliens creating crop circles isn't logical. Then again, maybe 'thumbing your nose' and being a 'slave2 fate' isn't very logical to the aliens either. There is most certainly undeniable evidence that cannot be explained and gets shrugged off and swept under the rug because there truly is no way to explain how the **** these gigantic ******* elaborate, symetrical shapes and figures spring up over night. Instead of belittling compelling evidence, why don't you actually try to make sense of it. The sensible reasoning to come to is that people ARE NOT running around with micro-wave guns. Aliens sounds WAY more plausible than that

So then obviously you have the evidence to show that microwaves were in fact used on crop circles? Or does it just appear that way? Do you realize how many obstacles must be overcome for intelligent life to evolve in the first place? And then for said life to proceed through the industrial revolution and advance to the point of travelling the stars? And then proceed to find our tiny speck of dust of a planet with literally more than a trillion to one odds? And then for them to be advanced enough to do all of that and still not have the decency or maybe even ability to ring the doorbell and introduce themselves, instead relying on a cryptic form of communication that we can't decipher? All under the cover of darkness and secrecy? Would you care to address those points as you explain how it is that that is more likely than some pranksters running around pulling peoples legs?

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The obstacles to the evolution of life may well be formidable. What we begin to perceive about the likely number of planets in the galaxy tends to offset this. This number is a huge one, and so provides a huge number of settings for life to develop. Even if the majority of these fail to produce life, we could still end up with a very substantial number of living planets. If we similarly whittle down the number of planets that produce what we think of as intelligent life, and then again, that produce a technological civilization with the capability to visit the stars, the number could still be respectable.

Once the ability to travel the galaxy is attained, even at sub-light speeds, the number of planets where such initiatives originated becomes less important. At least some of these civilizations can be expected to expand into the entire galaxy, just as ancient humans expanded their territory from a tiny corner of Africa, to the entire planet.

Finding already inhabited planets, like Earth would not need to be a chance proposition. We are already considering methods of detecting life on newly discovered exoplanets. Life alters the atmosphere of its planet in ways detectable at stellar distance. Once a life-containing planet was located, it could be focused upon for signs of technological activity, such as artificial contaminants in the atmosphere, radio and radar emissions, and anomalous heat emissions.

Speculations about what would be a 'decent' way for extraterrestrials to introduce themselves to us are based on a very limited amount of knowledge. We have no experience in contacting other inhabited worlds, know essentially nothing about ET psychology or culture, and have a regrettable history of cross-cultural contacts with our own species, which is far from 'decent'. If a subtle, slow, and somewhat ambiguous process of introduction is sought, in order to avoid disruption and conflict, more power to them, say I!

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The obstacles to the evolution of life may well be formidable. What we begin to perceive about the likely number of planets in the galaxy tends to offset this. This number is a huge one, and so provides a huge number of settings for life to develop. Even if the majority of these fail to produce life, we could still end up with a very substantial number of living planets. If we similarly whittle down the number of planets that produce what we think of as intelligent life, and then again, that produce a technological civilization with the capability to visit the stars, the number could still be respectable.

Once the ability to travel the galaxy is attained, even at sub-light speeds, the number of planets where such initiatives originated becomes less important. At least some of these civilizations can be expected to expand into the entire galaxy, just as ancient humans expanded their territory from a tiny corner of Africa, to the entire planet.

Finding already inhabited planets, like Earth would not need to be a chance proposition. We are already considering methods of detecting life on newly discovered exoplanets. Life alters the atmosphere of its planet in ways detectable at stellar distance. Once a life-containing planet was located, it could be focused upon for signs of technological activity, such as artificial contaminants in the atmosphere, radio and radar emissions, and anomalous heat emissions.

Speculations about what would be a 'decent' way for extraterrestrials to introduce themselves to us are based on a very limited amount of knowledge. We have no experience in contacting other inhabited worlds, know essentially nothing about ET psychology or culture, and have a regrettable history of cross-cultural contacts with our own species, which is far from 'decent'. If a subtle, slow, and somewhat ambiguous process of introduction is sought, in order to avoid disruption and conflict, more power to them, say I!

A few lights in the sky and inexplicable objects, seen by reliable witnesses, a few crop designs with mathematical messages; this might be a highly intelligent way to introduce a totally new dimension to our lives without createing mass panic and hysteria. But this depends on whether we are being told to ignore these signs by some people who choose to ridicule the possibility.

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The obstacles to the evolution of life may well be formidable. What we begin to perceive about the likely number of planets in the galaxy tends to offset this. This number is a huge one, and so provides a huge number of settings for life to develop. Even if the majority of these fail to produce life, we could still end up with a very substantial number of living planets. If we similarly whittle down the number of planets that produce what we think of as intelligent life, and then again, that produce a technological civilization with the capability to visit the stars, the number could still be respectable.

Once the ability to travel the galaxy is attained, even at sub-light speeds, the number of planets where such initiatives originated becomes less important. At least some of these civilizations can be expected to expand into the entire galaxy, just as ancient humans expanded their territory from a tiny corner of Africa, to the entire planet.

Finding already inhabited planets, like Earth would not need to be a chance proposition. We are already considering methods of detecting life on newly discovered exoplanets. Life alters the atmosphere of its planet in ways detectable at stellar distance. Once a life-containing planet was located, it could be focused upon for signs of technological activity, such as artificial contaminants in the atmosphere, radio and radar emissions, and anomalous heat emissions.

Speculations about what would be a 'decent' way for extraterrestrials to introduce themselves to us are based on a very limited amount of knowledge. We have no experience in contacting other inhabited worlds, know essentially nothing about ET psychology or culture, and have a regrettable history of cross-cultural contacts with our own species, which is far from 'decent'. If a subtle, slow, and somewhat ambiguous process of introduction is sought, in order to avoid disruption and conflict, more power to them, say I!

At least I can count on you to give a well thought reply bison. :tu:

Indeed, I never said any of that was impossible however I still think the likelihood of those things being the case is quite small. As far as being a disruptive or chaotic event when aliens finally do announce their presence, I think that there would indeed be panic and fear but only in a small percentage of the population. There might be a bit of a worldwide disruption though I'm sure things would be back to 'normal' in short order. Once the initial shock wore off people would do what they always do and life would go on. I doubt there would be panic in the streets or rioting or anarchy all over the place, this isn't some 50's sci-fi.

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A few lights in the sky and inexplicable objects, seen by reliable witnesses, a few crop designs with mathematical messages; this might be a highly intelligent way to introduce a totally new dimension to our lives without createing mass panic and hysteria. But this depends on whether we are being told to ignore these signs by some people who choose to ridicule the possibility.

People have been telling me to ignore things most of my life. I rarely heeded them, and usually found I'd made the right decision. I'd like to see this supposed introductory phase reach some kind of closure, so that we could begin to learn about life in the rest of the galaxy. Is it required that everyone believe that we are visited by extraterrestrials *before* some kind of ET self disclosure can happen? I doubt it. Elder civilizations would, I hope, be both smart and wise. It would not be wise to set an impossibly difficult goal like this. I suppose that some especially stubborn skeptics will probably just have to deal with the shock of the new, when it happens. From what I've seen, it could be pretty hard on some of them. Edited by bison

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