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Lilly

Other side of gun ownership

464 posts in this topic

Fair enough, that's where our disagreement lies. I believe you can be taught to be responsible enough to handle firearms effectively as a juvenile.

A lot of states in the U.S. happen to agree with me. http://www.the-deer-...tes-d-n-r-s/ I had found a nice little chart that listed all the states, but this link will take you to any states home page for hunting regulations. Being from Ohio, I know 16 year olds are allowed to hunt without direct adult supervision.

I agree with you that children can be taught to be responsible enough to handle firearms effectively. No disagreement there. My concern is that I don't consider children in general responsible enough to make the right decisions and to make the right choices all the time. Children (in general) are not fully developed and they do not have the life experience that adults do. That's why there is a mandatory age of 18 before children can make their own decisions without parental consent on many important issues. Children are also much more impressionable and subject to a lot of peer pressure while in school. To add to this, being a child in school can be quite turbulent, full of various emotions, some highs and some lows. Children don't always share these experiences with their parents either, so many parents may not even know that something is wrong at school. Furthermore, I also believe that society has been trying to shield children from failure, from trouble and from negativity to the point that children more and more are unable to deal with a negative event or situation. This is a recipe for disaster in my mind, and while I don't doubt that the majority of kids are stable enough to know not to grab a gun and shoot up a bunch of people, I feel that we should not make it possible for that small minority to do so by allowing them access to a firearm. I understand that 18 is not some magical number where a child all of a sudden becomes responsible and trust worthy, but a line has to be drawn somewhere.

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Green dude, clarity is key. Some of these people are really picturing a 4 year old with his own gun carrying it around like their favorite toy truck.

Same for everybody. Clarity is key to important debates like this. What are we, politicians? Lets cut the vagueness and if I'm guilty of it, lemme know.

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Dude, are you sure you're a liberal? You really don't sound like one.

I can't say I completely identify with any political affiliate, but I would be considered more liberal than my peers that I grew up with. I think all children across the world (not just the U.S.) should have food, shelter, and education. I think gay people should have the same rights as straight people (to be honest, I don't think anyone should have to identify as being gay or straight), I think abortion is an issue that only women should have a say (meaning, no male should have a say in any laws pertaining to abortion), and I think religion should be a private matter.

All that doesn't really jive with the conservative republican party.

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well it is your job as a parent to teach your kids responcibuility, and if you lived in usa you would go to jail just for letting your 7 years old be home alone even for 5 min.

NO WAY? :cry: 5 mins, what about if you want to do a bit of gardening, do you have to take them with you to prune the roses?

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Dude, are you sure you're a liberal? You really don't sound like one.

Aright well instead of keep on stating such simple things could you help the argument by providing details?

So you can buy a handgun, legally, without a background check? The FBI does background checks and I'm sure they keep track of them.

Rifles and shotguns, what's the process there?

You can't keep saying things that sound bad without providing details. I'm sure you don't want to but you aren't helping out getting things figured out. You keep telling everybody that you can 'just go get one'. There must be more to it. If not, why? Is all you have to do is show proof of age and that's it? I'm not berating but it's hard to have a debate without the facts.

I've said it a million times now. I can sell my guns (any kind) to my neighbor and the Fed will not be notified. I can buy a gun from my neighbor and the Fed will not be notified. I don't have to register the gun at all. Not a hand gun or any other kind.

Now, if my neighbor sells me this gun and I act like a fool and leave it in a closet or drawer and some one takes it...how would anyone know where the gun came from other than tracking back to a manufacturer?

They won't be able to.

Nibs

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Its a different lifestyle we live and completely different mindset. My son had Thomas the Tank engine and power rangers, he was taught to read books and has lots of them ....we played games and I took him to museums often, but guns? no way.

Yeah, we did the same with our kids. Museums, galleries, travel, all big readers, seminars, games and taught them about weapons.

Nibs

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It really isn't astonishing,

To me the idea of handing a small child their own gun is astonishing to me and those like myself who do not come from the same culture.. I read it and it did floor me.. You have to take yourself out of your OWN minset, and think of how anyone else who do not belong to your country and culture would look at that ? If you can do that, then you gain some understanding

and setting up an insult with 'I am not here to put you down' doesn't change the fact that it's an insult.

It is not an insult... I did find it mad for any child to have a deadly weapon in their possession.. If you find that insulting, report my post that states as such.. I think you will find that anyone reading can tell I was taken back by it. .I have never n my life read anything like that before.....ever ! I noted I was taken back and found it astonishing.. that itself is not insulting..

I am not crazy, and my father isn't crazy

No one has said you were..Not you personally..

This is what you are overlooking .. I am from a culture that do not own guns, not many of us will do.. My country is not the same as your own in regards to gun handling . You should think of that, and understand why anyone like myself would find a 4 year old with their own deadly weapon is shocking...

I can fully understand parents with guns bought to protect their little children, but a little child with their own to protect themselves and their family if needed, is a crazy idea to me... Its the parents job and responsibility to protect their kids, and I see no problem with that, as I can see that the USA is a bit different from the UK and Ireland.. But come on small children? That's just not right

There is no way on earth I would allow my own children handle anything that is dangerous, let alone a gun..holy good gumdrops that is just not something I could ever consider

I didn't make my post to insult you personally.. I looked at the post as a 4 year old with their own gun and that's all l could see.. If you cannot understand how that could shock me, then you obviously look at it one sided..

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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I can't say I completely identify with any political affiliate, but I would be considered more liberal than my peers that I grew up with. I think all children across the world (not just the U.S.) should have food, shelter, and education. I think gay people should have the same rights as straight people (to be honest, I don't think anyone should have to identify as being gay or straight), I think abortion is an issue that only women should have a say (meaning, no male should have a say in any laws pertaining to abortion), and I think religion should be a private matter.

All that doesn't really jive with the conservative republican party.

I gotcha. Well you're certainly conservative in this debate. And I pretty much agree with most of that too. I just don't think it's my responsibility to make sure those things happen. I have myself and those close to me to worry about. That doesn't mean I don't care or wouldn't help if I could. My problem with many liberals is that they demand that I or everyone for that matter take action, see it their way and do something about it or else you're a heartless selfish prick. Near as I can tell you seem too down to earth for that. Then again, this is the first we met on a subject we seem to agree about. But hey, that's all just my opinion which isn't really important so take it how you will.

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Yeah, we did the same with our kids. Museums, galleries, travel, all big readers, seminars, games and taught them about weapons.

Nibs

i actually understand, as I have said, its a completely different lifestyle and mindset, personally, I feel safer with mine.

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i actually understand, as I have said, its a completely different lifestyle and mindset, personally, I feel safer with mine.

Ok. I feel the same way about mine.

Nibs

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I agree with you that children can be taught to be responsible enough to handle firearms effectively. No disagreement there. My concern is that I don't consider children in general responsible enough to make the right decisions and to make the right choices all the time. Children (in general) are not fully developed and they do not have the life experience that adults do. That's why there is a mandatory age of 18 before children can make their own decisions without parental consent on many important issues. Children are also much more impressionable and subject to a lot of peer pressure while in school. To add to this, being a child in school can be quite turbulent, full of various emotions, some highs and some lows. Children don't always share these experiences with their parents either, so many parents may not even know that something is wrong at school. Furthermore, I also believe that society has been trying to shield children from failure, from trouble and from negativity to the point that children more and more are unable to deal with a negative event or situation. This is a recipe for disaster in my mind, and while I don't doubt that the majority of kids are stable enough to know not to grab a gun and shoot up a bunch of people, I feel that we should not make it possible for that small minority to do so by allowing them access to a firearm. I understand that 18 is not some magical number where a child all of a sudden becomes responsible and trust worthy, but a line has to be drawn somewhere.

Stellar, I'll say I agree with the overall theme you're communicating here. I would just like to see a certification process instead of setting an age, similar to driver's licenses.

Edit: Fixed your to you're

Edited by green_dude777

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You have to take yourself out of your OWN minset, and think of how anyone else who do not belong to your country and culture would look at that ? If you can do that, then you gain some understanding

Ma'am, aren't you having a hard time doing the same?

I've said it a million times now. I can sell my guns (any kind) to my neighbor and the Fed will not be notified. I can buy a gun from my neighbor and the Fed will not be notified. I don't have to register the gun at all. Not a hand gun or any other kind.

Now, if my neighbor sells me this gun and I act like a fool and leave it in a closet or drawer and some one takes it...how would anyone know where the gun came from other than tracking back to a manufacturer?

They won't be able to.

Nibs

Alright well I decided to look for myself. There is no registry as you say. However, for gun show sales background checks are mandatory so there is reason to believe the FBI knows who's got or getting one. And I found this below and as it turns out the dealer absolutely keeps record of original sale so it is reasonable to believe that identification of a gun in an investigation would be reasonably simple and also simple to track it's path if the original purchaser was to sell it to somebody else unless the original owner is covering for whoever they sold it to thereby withholding information. So I don't think all these guns are floating around impossible to track if needed.

http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/colorado.aspx

PURCHASE

There is no state permit required for the purchase of any rifle, shotgun or handgun.

Dealers are required to keep a record on the retail sale, rental, or exchange of handguns. The record shall include the name of the person to whom the handgun is transferred, his or her age, occupation, and residence, and the make, caliber, finish and serial number of the handgun, and the date of the transfer and name of employee making the transfer. The record book shall be open at all times to the inspection of any duly authorized police officer.

Before a gun show vendor transfers or attempts to transfer a firearm at a gun show, he or she shall require that a background check, in accordance with the national instant criminal background check system, be conducted of the prospective transferee, and obtain approval of the transfer from the Colorado Bureau of Investigation through a licensed gun dealer. It is also unlawful to transfer a firearm if any part of the transaction takes place at a gun show, unless a licensed dealer first obtains a background check on the prospective transferee. This does not apply to firearms defined as antiques, curios or relics under federal law.

A Colorado resident who is otherwise qualified can purchase or receive delivery of a rifle or shotgun in a state contiguous to Colorado, so long as the sale fully complies with the legal conditions of sale in both states and the purchaser and seller have complied with federal law applicable to interstate transactions.

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Ma'am, aren't you having a hard time doing the same?

Alright well I decided to look for myself. There is no registry as you say. However, for gun show sales background checks are mandatory so there is reason to believe the FBI knows who's got or getting one. And I found this below and as it turns out the dealer absolutely keeps record of original sale so it is reasonable to believe that identification of a gun in an investigation would be reasonably simple and also simple to track it's path if the original purchaser was to sell it to somebody else unless the original owner is covering for whoever they sold it to thereby withholding information. So I don't think all these guns are floating around impossible to track if needed.

Right. ONLY if it is a dealer or at a gun show. Private sales are not tracked or registered. It's not a matter of covering for anything.

Here is how I see it -

Manufacturer makes gun.

Manufacturer sells gun to dealer. (Tracked and recorded.)

Dealer sells to individual. (Tracked and recorded.)

Individual A sells to individual B. (No record)

Individual B sells to individual C. (No record)

Individual C is robbed. Gun that wasn't locked in safe is stolen. Gun used in liquor store robbery in another city.

How is the gun traced?

Nibs

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NO WAY? :cry: 5 mins, what about if you want to do a bit of gardening, do you have to take them with you to prune the roses?

yea, you would be shocked if you knew all details on what you can't do with a kid. crazy. a friend of mine got arrested fro letting his 8 years old hold a pump while filling the car, mind you he was right next to him, drop of gas got in kids eye, he started screaming, and crying, ems came than cops, and my friend arrested for child endangerment.

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Ma'am, aren't you having a hard time doing the same?

I do not ( and have noted a number of times over ) have a hard time understanding gun ownership.( Even though I do not live in the USA ) . I also do not have a hard time understand a parents right to protect their kids . What I do struggle with, is handing a small child so very young a deadly weapon..

Why? Because even though there are no guns here, I still would not allow my own children handle ANYTHING dangerous.. If my daughter wants me to cut something and she needs sharp scissors or a knife, I do it for her.. She can in time use them when she is ready.. I cannot imagine handling her a gun so young no.. Is there a problem with my statement?

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yea, you would be shocked if you knew all details on what you can't do with a kid. crazy. a friend of mine got arrested fro letting his 8 years old hold a pump while filling the car, mind you he was right next to him, drop of gas got in kids eye, he started screaming, and crying, ems came than cops, and my friend arrested for child endangerment.

It crazy.

can`t hold a pump, but maybe if he had been holding a gun and his dad said he was training him to be 'responsible' that would have been ok. :huh:

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Right. ONLY if it is a dealer or at a gun show. Private sales are not tracked or registered. It's not a matter of covering for anything.

Here is how I see it -

Manufacturer makes gun.

Manufacturer sells gun to dealer. (Tracked and recorded.)

Dealer sells to individual. (Tracked and recorded.)

Individual A sells to individual B. (No record)

Individual B sells to individual C. (No record)

Individual C is robbed. Gun that wasn't locked in safe is stolen. Gun used in liquor store robbery in another city.

How is the gun traced?

Nibs

you can't trace it, and you don't know how many such guns exists, pbly millions. and you can't remove them. but what does tracing do anyway, even if you trace a gun, even if you know who it was stolen from, and even if it was reported stolen, it wont help you solve a crime. let alone prevet it.facebook these days is lot more effective than any serial trace. ppl talk and brag. and smart scriminals will trow a gun in a lake after they are done, so you wont find any trace of it, even if it was legaly bought gun and was used in crime.

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Right. ONLY if it is a dealer or at a gun show. Private sales are not tracked or registered. It's not a matter of covering for anything.

Here is how I see it -

Manufacturer makes gun.

Manufacturer sells gun to dealer. (Tracked and recorded.)

Dealer sells to individual. (Tracked and recorded.)

Individual A sells to individual B. (No record)

Individual B sells to individual C. (No record)

Individual C is robbed. Gun that wasn't locked in safe is stolen. Gun used in liquor store robbery in another city.

How is the gun traced?

Nibs

Yes but your inventing far fetched scenarios which is ok but forensic science is quite the thing these days. Plus people talk. But if you're the original purchaser and you sell it to your neighbor and he sells it to someone else it shouldn't be that much harder for the cops to get to the point where they start looking for the criminal as it would for them to get to that point if it was stolen from you.

Yes officer, I sold it to him...

Yes I got it from her sir but I sold it to him...

Yes sir I bought it from a neighbor who said they bought it from another neighbor. Anyways the guy broke in and stole it. I caught a glimpse. Here is my description...

With modern day communications it wouldn't be all that hard. Tracking a stolen gun is no harder if it were stolen right from the original owner, or owner number three unless nobodies talking to the cops. It's a situation that always has and always will be around. I think this whole talk has been about a registry. . Bullet prints, gun serial numbers and makes are all still known just as well when rounds are discovered at the crime scenes. How does having a registered gun make that gun any easier to find if it were stolen vs a gun that wasn't registered? Aside from a few simple and standard police questioning procedures?

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I've said it here before. Different strokes for different folks. Apparently this guys judgement about his kids was good judgement indeed. The kid saved himself and his little sister when there very well could have been two dead kids, a bad guy with their dads guns and who knows what this psycho would have done to others if still alive, and there could have been an angry rogue vigilante cop dad with a vengeance. But none of that bad stuff will happen because this guy taught his kid the right thing and his judgment was right on. Kudos. Now none of this means I would or could raise my own kids the same way. It's unlikely and is yet to be determined.

You are digging too much into my statement.. I was only replying to and commenting on ONE short and vague statement that read - I was given a gun at the age of 4.. I was handed the keys to the gun cabinet at 8, it's a miracle I didn't kill anyone <-- That, is all I was replying to. and that itself shocked me.. I did not read any hero story, apart form the OP itself

The reason why something like that would shock me is because I have raised a 4 year old and I have an 8 month old baby boy too..I just cannot imagine giving them guns or anything considered dangerous.. Am I now wrong for that? Really I must ask you, am I completely wrong here? Are my ideas ( about myself and my kids ) all wrong? If so, what universe have I entered? lol

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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I do not ( and have noted a number of times over ) have a hard time understanding gun ownership.( Even though I do not live in the USA ) . I also do not have a hard time understand a parents right to protect their kids . What I do struggle with, is handing a small child so very young a deadly weapon..

Well I guess you'll have to put yourself in their mindset, lol.

Just to let you know, I agree with how you raise. I just don't disagree with how someone else may raise theirs. I don't know that I would, could or would have to raise my own around guns but like I said, different strokes. You just have to hope for the best for others. No matter how much right and how much wrong one may see in the world one thing that'll hold true is that their will always be plenty of each. So, what can ya do?

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You are digging too much into my statement.. I was only replying to and commenting on ONE short and vague statement that read - I was given a gun at the age of 4.. I was handed the keys to the gun cabinet at 8, it's a miracle I didn't kill anyone <-- That, is all I was replying to. and that itself shocked me.. I did not read any hero story, apart form the OP itself

The reason why something like that would shock me is because I have raised a 4 year old and I have an 8 month old baby boy too..I just cannot imagine giving them guns or anything considered dangerous.. Am I now wrong for that? Really I must ask you, Iam I completely wrong here? Are my ideas ( about myself and my kids ) all wrong? If so, what universe have I entered? lol

No you're not wrong. See my reply above.

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Yes but your inventing far fetched scenarios which is ok but forensic science is quite the thing these days. Plus people talk. But if you're the original purchaser and you sell it to your neighbor and he sells it to someone else it shouldn't be that much harder for the cops to get to the point where they start looking for the criminal as it would for them to get to that point if it was stolen from you.

Yes officer, I sold it to him...

Yes I got it from her sir but I sold it to him...

Yes sir I bought it from a neighbor who said they bought it from another neighbor. Anyways the guy broke in and stole it. I caught a glimpse. Here is my description...

With modern day communications it wouldn't be all that hard. Tracking a stolen gun is no harder if it were stolen right from the original owner, or owner number three unless nobodies talking to the cops. It's a situation that always has and always will be around. I think this whole talk has been about a registry. . Bullet prints, gun serial numbers and makes are all still known just as well when rounds are discovered at the crime scenes. How does having a registered gun make that gun any easier to find if it were stolen vs a gun that wasn't registered? Aside from a few simple and standard police questioning procedures?

Eh, around here this isn't uncommon at all.

Now, my point is (and has been) that if gun owners are held responsible for what is done with their guns then they will be forced to take better measures making sure that the guns don't get around that easily.

In my example - Idiot individual C left his gun in the closet and it was stolen. HE should be held partially responsible because he didn't secure his gun properly. (Safe, locks, etc.) Even if it's a fine (large-ish) it would (IMO) cause gun owners to take that ownership a bit more seriously.

Just as I feel that if I allow a mentally challenged individual (I am aware of the troubles of this individual) to know where and how I store a gun and that it is easily accessible and then he takes it and shoots a bunch of people. I'M RESPONSIBLE FOR PUTTING A GUN IN THIS PERSONS HANDS.

My best friend has a son that is a drug addict and very violent. Her husband is retired military and a hunter. He has several guns. They are locked in a large gun safe. Ammo is locked in different safe. There is no key, just a combination that only he and his wife know.

Their son robbed their house. He held the mother at knife point. He did this because he couldn't get into the safe. Husband's first response? CALL THE POLICE.

Nibs

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You are digging too much into my statement.. I was only replying to and commenting on ONE short and vague statement that read - I was given a gun at the age of 4.. I was handed the keys to the gun cabinet at 8, it's a miracle I didn't kill anyone <-- That, is all I was replying to. and that itself shocked me.. I did not read any hero story, apart form the OP itself

The reason why something like that would shock me is because I have raised a 4 year old and I have an 8 month old baby boy too..I just cannot imagine giving them guns or anything considered dangerous.. Am I now wrong for that? Really I must ask you, Iam I completely wrong here? Are my ideas ( about myself and my kids ) all wrong? If so, what universe have I entered? lol

Nobody said you were wrong for sheltering your children from guns, scissors, sharp sticks, etc.

I think what's rubbing some the wrong way (including myself) is that you are painting a picture of only one correct option on how to raise a child.

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Eh, around here this isn't uncommon at all.

Now, my point is (and has been) that if gun owners are held responsible for what is done with their guns then they will be forced to take better measures making sure that the guns don't get around that easily.

In my example - Idiot individual C left his gun in the closet and it was stolen. HE should be held partially responsible because he didn't secure his gun properly. (Safe, locks, etc.) Even if it's a fine (large-ish) it would (IMO) cause gun owners to take that ownership a bit more seriously.

Just as I feel that if I allow a mentally challenged individual (I am aware of the troubles of this individual) to know where and how I store a gun and that it is easily accessible and then he takes it and shoots a bunch of people. I'M RESPONSIBLE FOR PUTTING A GUN IN THIS PERSONS HANDS.

My best friend has a son that is a drug addict and very violent. Her husband is retired military and a hunter. He has several guns. They are locked in a large gun safe. Ammo is locked in different safe. There is no key, just a combination that only he and his wife know.

Their son robbed their house. He held the mother at knife point. He did this because he couldn't get into the safe. Husband's first response? CALL THE POLICE.

Nibs

Of course in certain situations you should be held responsible and if something bad happens you wouldn't be human if you at least didn't feel guilty. However, I'm having a hard time being convinced that keeping guns in your house not locked up and getting robbed or burglarized of them is the same as keeping them accessible to unstable people.

For instance, the mother of the Newton shooter. If she weren't killed I'd feel she bears some responsibility assuming the kid didn't force her to get the guns and she let him have access to them. In that case we still don't know what happened and its still a lot easier to blame the mom than it is to understand the bias of a mother towards her kids. However that bias shouldn't be excused under such extreme circumstances. It sucks but it shouldn't.

Now if my house is broken into and they take the gun I may happen to leave in the night stand I don't feel I should be responsible. Firstly, it's my freaking house where I can do what I want and they have no business taking my stuff in the first place. Secondly, keeping every gun, at least if you own several but regardless, locked up in a safe would in many cases defeat the very purpose of having that source of home defense in the first place. What good is it going to do if your gun is locked in a safe in the attic, bedroom or garage if your sitting on your living room couch when someone bust down the door or through the window? Seriously, where does the responsibility fall on the criminal? If someone steals your car and uses it for crime or kills somebody in a wreck are you going to feel your responsible for that? Lets take you out of the equation since that adds self righteousness. Say your parents or grandparents car was stolen and the same thing happens? Are they responsible?

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Nobody said you were wrong for sheltering your children from guns, scissors, sharp sticks, etc.

I think what's rubbing some the wrong way (including myself) is that you are painting a picture of only one correct option on how to raise a child.

I am not intending to rub anyone up the wrong way.. All I am doing here is sharing my own opinions and explain how I would feel... If that rubs you up the wrong way, well I am sorry but I cannot consider giving my children anything that is known as dangerous.. There are millions like me, even in your own country.. Each to their own

Well I guess you'll have to put yourself in their mindset, lol.

Just to let you know, I agree with how you raise. I just don't disagree with how someone else may raise theirs. I don't know that I would, could or would have to raise my own around guns but like I said, different strokes. You just have to hope for the best for others. No matter how much right and how much wrong one may see in the world one thing that'll hold true is that their will always be plenty of each. So, what can ya do?

I did try and put myself in their mindset, and I stated I could not ever hand my children anything dangerous...I still won't ...The way I looked at it is - IF I did feel the need for guns at home and I lived in the USA, then yes I would do all to protect my family, but I would not expect my children to do so as well

Look at the story in the OP ( that Lilly posted ) To sum up in short - Mother hides her kids in the attic, and she shoots an intruder .. That is a heroic mother in my honest opinion.. To me, she did the right thing and she was brave to do so.. What she didn't do was take one of her children and say - "Right little one, you go to the back and cover me"..!! She was going to protect her own kids and she did so without putting the children in harms way.. BRAVO MOM

Now even though I don't own guns and not likely to either, I can still understand her story and side with her.. BUT I cannot consider handing my children weapons that can kill.....I cannot imagine ever saying to Becky when she was a toddler - "Right, here is your very own gun, when you are 7 or 8, you can have the keys to the gun cabinet, you aren't tall enough to reach the keyhole yet, so I'm afraid you'll have to wait" Supervision - When an intruder or intruders come...I wont have time to say - "Hold up a sec I have to supervise Becky to make sure she can get a good shot at you.. right Becky remember what mommy taught you? Fire !!" .. All right, I am joking with the last part, but I cannot allow my kids to handle anything dangerous ..

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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