Other side of gun ownership

[freetoroam]

Wait, I just want to be sure I understand what you are saying...

A person cannot on their own be responsible?

Nibs

Actually, this has made me think, because in a court of law, the nutter will most likely be said to be "not responsible for their actions", the (law) determines that.

[Stellar]

I don't understand where my claim of 'being brought up responsibly with a potentially dangerous item prevents misuse,' is saying to give unsupervised access to anything.

It was more of an effort to being it back to the original subject of a 15 year old having unsupervised access to an AR15.

[+HerNibs]

Actually, this has made me think, because in a court of law, the nutter will most likely be said to be "not responsible for their actions", the (law) determines that.

It's VERY rare for a judge/court to allow an insanity defense. Heck, the loon who shot up the theater in Aurora was just ruled competent to stand trial.

But, in the case that the loon is found to not be able to stand trial they are committed to a psychiatric hospital. Getting the "not guilty by reason of mental defect" is even harder these days.

Plus, once they are competent, they can stand trial after that.

Incompetence to stand trial

A defendant can be found incompetent to stand trial if he is unable to understand the nature and consequences of the proceedings against him and to assist properly in his defense. In such a case, he is involuntarily committed until his competency is restored.^[1] The Supreme Court has ruled that the government has a legitimate interest in bringing defendants to trial and that therefore incompetent defendants can be forcibly medicated under certain circumstances. SeeSell v. United States. Time served while waiting to be restored to competence generally counts as "dead time," because it is not official detention but rather is (in theory) devoted to treatment. The Supreme Court has ruled that an insanity acquittee can be held indefinitely.^[2] Statements made by the defendant in the course of his evaluation cannot be admitted as evidence against him on the issue of guilt.

Between 1940 and 1984, the law provided for a board of examiners to be established for each federal and penal correctional institution that would consist of three medical officers, one appointed by the warden or superintendent of the institution; another by the U.S. Attorney General; and another by the U.S. Public Health Service.^[3] The pre-1984 law did not have the same stringent 30- and 45-day time limits for examinations, but merely provided that "For the purpose of the examination the court may order the accused committed for such reasonable period as the court may determine to a suitable hospital or other facility to be designated by the court." The law provided that even if mental competency was not raised as an issue before conviction, if a board of examiners found probable cause to believe the defendant had been incompetent at the time of his trial, the court could vacate the judgment of conviction and grant a new trial.

[edit]Insanity

Per Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 12.2, a defendant intending to pursue an insanity defense must timely notify an attorney for the government in writing. The government then has a right to have the court order a psychiatric or psychological examination. If the defendant does not submit to the examination, the court may exclude any expert evidence from the defendant on the issue of the defendant’s mental disease, mental defect, or any other mental condition. Federal law provides for the commitment of those found not guilty only by reason of insanity. Once such a verdict is handed down, the defendant has the burden of proof of showing that his release would not create a substantial risk of bodily injury to another person or serious damage of property of another due to a present mental disease or defect.^[4] Because of the difficulty in proving such a thing, in some cases, defendants found not guilty only by reason of insanity serve more time in a mental hospital than they would have served in prison had they been found guilty. A risk panel is typically tasked with making such assessments.

It's not the "get out of jail free" card that many people think it is.

Nibs

[green_dude777]

It was more of an effort to being it back to the original subject of a 15 year old having unsupervised access to an AR15.

That's a fair statement, but my position isn't to allow unsupervised access to a 15 year old.

The juvenile in this story may appear to have unsupervised access, but that isn't necessarily true; he just wasn't directly supervised when defending the home.

Are you suggesting that they should always have direct adult supervision when handling a firearm?

[F3SS]

Can't hold them responsible if you don't know who they are.

Nibs

It's none of your business to know who they are. We don't live in Minority Report where you're arrested before you commit future crimes. Any given person is as much of a potentially dangerous criminal as any given gun owner. Would you like an online database of psychiatric evaluations of every citizen just so nosy paranoid people can know everything about everybody? Would you submit yourself to any kind of public database for any given reason? I hope not.

Besides, have you been keeping up on the NY paper(s) that are making online databases of local gun owners complete with interactive maps? It hasn't even been a couple weeks yet and already the first robbery connected to that information has happened. They went straight for the Guns. The guns they couldn't get from the safe. Pretty curious that so many gun owners are irresponsible yet when one random one has been picked they happened to be doing all the right things. But that won't always be the case and sooner or later someone who shouldn't have guns will have them and someone will die sooner or later because of it and because they stole them people will be blaming the gun owner for those actions even though its his house that was broken into.

It is very serious and should be carefully thought about and discussed. And as an outsider I think one of the things that Americans should do is look at similar nations and see if anything can be learned and ask why their gun crime tends to be much lower than what's in the US.

You ever think that it has to do with population and population density? I remember when that Norwegian guy killed however many people several years ago. A country where not even cops have guns. Anyhow, debates like this were about and I remember gathering the stats and when you scale the Norwegian population up to Americas and do the same with their gun stats inline with the population scale it turns out they'd have a much higher gun murder rate than America if they too had 300M people. We are a huge country, size and population and its not fair or just to say well that country only had 15 murders last year and America had so many more. Australia for instance is like half the size of America yet they have the population of New York City spread out through the entire land. If Australia had 150M people I guarantee their gun ban wouldn't look so promising. Same with Canada. Giant country, much smaller population.

[Stellar]

That's a fair statement, but my position isn't to allow unsupervised access to a 15 year old.

The juvenile in this story may appear to have unsupervised access, but that isn't necessarily true; he just wasn't directly supervised when defending the home.

Are you suggesting that they should always have direct adult supervision when handling a firearm?

Yes I am.

[Beckys_Mom]

I had my first .22 rifle when I was 4... On top of that, I was shown where the keys to the gun cabinet was when I was 8 or 9 years old, just for the reason of possible home intruders.

It's a miracle I haven't killed anyone, I must be an anomaly. :/

A 4 year old armed with a gun.. Holy crap on a cracker... I have never heard of that before.. That is astonishing .. And the keys to the guns at such an early age.. holy crap that's just mad

I am not here to put you down, I am just taken back by this..I have never heard of a child as young as 4 having their own gun...!! And what amazes me more is some clicked like when you announced that ...ohh my word, it just doesn't get any more crazy than that..

I gave my child a gun and the keys to my gun cabinet...Just in case you know? <-- If I put that up on my facebook.. I would shock a lot of folks and ironically sarcasm of - Parent of the year comments would fly lol

Edited January 14, 2013 by Beckys_Mom

[Stellar]

Mr Fess, I don't think Nibs is talking about an online database accessible to anyone. I think she's talking about a gun registry. My country has one, and I do not feel that my rights have been infringed nor do I feel that I live in the minority report.

[F3SS]

Mr Fess, I don't think Nibs is talking about an online database accessible to anyone. I think she's talking about a gun registry. My country has one, and I do not feel that my rights have been infringed nor do I feel that I live in the minority report.

I see. Shotguns and rifles I assume? Because we already have to register our handgun purchases. I don't know the process for long arms since I never bought one before. And the gun show arguement is drivel. You still need checked out when you purchase there. It isn't an underground flea market.

[+HerNibs]

It's none of your business to know who they are. We don't live in Minority Report where you're arrested before you commit future crimes. Any given person is as much of a potentially dangerous criminal as any given gun owner. Would you like an online database of psychiatric evaluations of every citizen just so nosy paranoid people can know everything about everybody? Would you submit yourself to any kind of public database for any given reason? I hope not.

Besides, have you been keeping up on the NY paper(s) that are making online databases of local gun owners complete with interactive maps? It hasn't even been a couple weeks yet and already the first robbery connected to that information has happened. They went straight for the Guns. The guns they couldn't get from the safe. Pretty curious that so many gun owners are irresponsible yet when one random one has been picked they happened to be doing all the right things. But that won't always be the case and sooner or later someone who shouldn't have guns will have them and someone will die sooner or later because of it and because they stole them people will be blaming the gun owner for those actions even though its his house that was broken into.

You ever think that it has to do with population and population density? I remember when that Norwegian guy killed however many people several years ago. A country where not even cops have guns. Anyhow, debates like this were about and I remember gathering the stats and when you scale the Norwegian population up to Americas and do the same with their gun stats inline with the population scale it turns out they'd have a much higher gun murder rate than America if they too had 300M people. We are a huge country, size and population and its not fair or just to say well that country only had 15 murders last year and America had so many more. Australia for instance is like half the size of America yet they have the population of New York City spread out through the entire land. If Australia had 150M people I guarantee their gun ban wouldn't look so promising. Same with Canada. Giant country, much smaller population.

I didn't say anyone should have access to gun records. I was stating that the police cannot hold a gun owner responsible for crimes committed with their guns if they don't know who owns the guns.

I don't believe that gun ownership is something that should be public record but absolutely available to government officials (police, courts, etc.)

Nibs

[freetoroam]

A 4 year old armed with a gun.. Holy crap on a cracker... I have never heard of that before.. That is astonishing .. And the keys to the guns at such an early age.. holy crap that's just mad

I am not here to put you down, I am just taken back by this..I have never heard of a child as young as 4 having their own gun...!!

i can not get my head round this sort of lifestyle. i can understand those living in areas where hunting for food and guns are a means for their survival, where there are no local shops and their lives really do consist of living in the wilderness, but really? would they be the ones posting on here too?

[+HerNibs]

Mr Fess, I don't think Nibs is talking about an online database accessible to anyone. I think she's talking about a gun registry. My country has one, and I do not feel that my rights have been infringed nor do I feel that I live in the minority report.

Yep.

Nibs

[green_dude777]

Yes I am.

Fair enough, that's where our disagreement lies. I believe you can be taught to be responsible enough to handle firearms effectively as a juvenile.

A lot of states in the U.S. happen to agree with me. http://www.the-deer-hunting-guide.com/info-guide/hunting-states-d-n-r-s/ I had found a nice little chart that listed all the states, but this link will take you to any states home page for hunting regulations. Being from Ohio, I know 16 year olds are allowed to hunt without direct adult supervision.

[Beckys_Mom]

i can not get my head round this sort of lifestyle. i can understand those living in areas where hunting for food and guns are a means for their survival, where there are no local shops and their lives really do consist of living in the wilderness, but really? would they be the ones posting on here too?

When I read it, I was floored.... If I lived in the USA, and say I kept a couple of guns in my home in case of intruders, then that would be MY responsibility, not my children's I would not leave my small children in the house alone so they would need to reach for a gun to protect themselves either.. Not saying that was the other guys case, but to ANY ONE else who has done the same.. I cannot see why a small child needs excess to a dangerous weapon?

I can understand a parent in the US keeping a gun for safety reasons, but handing a little child their own gun is astonishing.. I fret if I see my 7 year old reach for my big scissors , I put them out of her reach, I just don't trust her with them.. I cannot imagine what she would do with a gun..I don't want to think about it to be honest

[aztek]

my country also has gun regestry, there are unregestered guns, that ppl have since there was no regestry, and you don't know who has them, untill they sell it thru a dealer, and it gets recorded. and there is nothing you can do about it.

even if law comes out to regester all these guns, i doubt you will see many do that, especially with heavy antigun ban happy attitude in usa. and i can't blame them.

[F3SS]

I didn't say anyone should have access to gun records. I was stating that the police cannot hold a gun owner responsible for crimes committed with their guns if they don't know who owns the guns.

I don't believe that gun ownership is something that should be public record but absolutely available to government officials (police, courts, etc.)

Nibs

Alright well my data base rant stands firm the Feds already do know who owns handguns, legally. I'm not sure if its like with handguns where each gun produces a bluet that can be traced like a fingerprint to the gun from which it was fired. I'm sure a rifle does that too. I dunno. Shotguns certainly can't. So if somebody is found dead with a shotgun blast how could they trace that anyways? Besides, that vast majority of gun crimes come from hand guns of which the vast majority are illegal and all gun crimes put together amount to a minuscule percentage compared to how many legal guns are out there. I don't like it though. I see no reason the government should know everything about us including wether you own a shotgun or rifle to hunt turkeys or shoot clay pigeons.

[aztek]

If I lived in the USA, and say I kept a couple of guns in my home in case of intruders, then that would be MY responsibility, not my children's I would not leave my small children in the house alone so they would need to reach for a gun to protect themselves either..

well it is your job as a parent to teach your kids responcibuility, and if you lived in usa you would go to jail just for letting your 7 years old be home alone even for 5 min.

[freetoroam]

Fair enough, that's where our disagreement lies. I believe you can be taught to be responsible enough to handle firearms effectively as a juvenile.

A lot of states in the U.S. happen to agree with me. http://www.the-deer-...tes-d-n-r-s/ I had found a nice little chart that listed all the states, but this link will take you to any states home page for hunting regulations. Being from Ohio, I know 16 year olds are allowed to hunt without direct adult supervision.

I actually agree with you on this, children can be taught as a juvenile, they can be taught responsibility for all the essentials of life, thats what a good parent does....whether a social change will change that, be it getting involved in gangs, drugs, or some underlying mental issue, contributes to the mishandling of the guns later is difficult to tell, but generally the signs can be recognized, but I believe that relying on the fact that training has been given to be responsible to handle the gun does not mean they will not misuse it........as has been shown, we know proper training has not stopped it happening when it comes to those who decide they want to go out and kill.

[F3SS]

When I read it, I was floored.... If I lived in the USA, and say I kept a couple of guns in my home in case of intruders, then that would be MY responsibility, not my children's I would not leave my small children in the house alone so they would need to reach for a gun to protect themselves either.. Not saying that was the other guys case, but to ANY ONE else who has done the same.. I cannot see why a small child needs excess to a dangerous weapon?

I can understand a parent in the US keeping a gun for safety reasons, but handing a little child their own gun is astonishing.. I fret if I see my 7 year old reach for my big scissors , I put them out of her reach, I just don't trust her with them.. I cannot imagine what she would do with a gun..I don't want to think about it to be honest

I've said it here before. Different strokes for different folks. Apparently this guys judgement about his kids was good judgement indeed. The kid saved himself and his little sister when there very well could have been two dead kids, a bad guy with their dads guns and who knows what this psycho would have done to others if still alive, and there could have been an angry rogue vigilante cop dad with a vengeance. But none of that bad stuff will happen because this guy taught his kid the right thing and his judgment was right on. Kudos. Now none of this means I would or could raise my own kids the same way. It's unlikely and is yet to be determined.

[+HerNibs]

my country also has gun regestry, there are unregestered guns, that ppl have since there was no regestry, and you don't know who has them, untill they sell it thru a dealer, and it gets recorded. and there is nothing you can do about it.

even if law comes out to regester all these guns, i doubt you will see many do that, especially with heavy antigun ban happy attitude in usa. and i can't blame them.

Here is where you are wrong. Not all of us are required to register our guns. It's NOT a country wide law.

Not even if I buy one today. I don't have to register it.

Nibs

[green_dude777]

A 4 year old armed with a gun.. Holy crap on a cracker... I have never heard of that before.. That is astonishing .. And the keys to the guns at such an early age.. holy crap that's just mad

I am not here to put you down, I am just taken back by this..I have never heard of a child as young as 4 having their own gun...!! And what amazes me more is some clicked like when you announced that ...ohh my word, it just doesn't get any more crazy than that..

I gave my child a gun and the keys to my gun cabinet...Just in case you know? <-- If I put that up on my facebook.. I would shock a lot of folks and ironically sarcasm of - Parent of the year comments would fly lol

It really isn't astonishing, and setting up an insult with 'I am not here to put you down' doesn't change the fact that it's an insult.

I am not crazy, and my father isn't crazy. Our criminal records (or lack thereof) show we're law abiding citizens, and our lack of government assistance, combined with our annual tax records show we're responsible citizens.

I won't get up on my soap box and return the favor, but I will say that people are always thankful for having people like my father around.

[+HerNibs]

Alright well my data base rant stands firm the Feds already do know who owns handguns, legally. I'm not sure if its like with handguns where each gun produces a bluet that can be traced like a fingerprint to the gun from which it was fired. I'm sure a rifle does that too. I dunno. Shotguns certainly can't. So if somebody is found dead with a shotgun blast how could they trace that anyways? Besides, that vast majority of gun crimes come from hand guns of which the vast majority are illegal and all gun crimes put together amount to a minuscule percentage compared to how many legal guns are out there. I don't like it though. I see no reason the government should know everything about us including wether you own a shotgun or rifle to hunt turkeys or shoot clay pigeons.

No, the Feds do NOT know everyone who owns a weapon. My state does NOT have registry for any of our guns.

I disagree, if the police KNOW that you own a weapon and something negligent you did causes your gun to fall into the hands of a criminal who then commits a crime, you should be held responsible.

Nibs

[F3SS]

It really isn't astonishing, and setting up an insult with 'I am not here to put you down' doesn't change the fact that it's an insult.

I am not crazy, and my father isn't crazy. Our criminal records (or lack thereof) show we're law abiding citizens, and our lack of government assistance, combined with our annual tax records show we're responsible citizens.

I won't get up on my soap box and return the favor, but I will say that people are always thankful for having people like my father around.

Dude, are you sure you're a liberal? You really don't sound like one.

No, the Feds do NOT know everyone who owns a weapon. My state does NOT have registry for any of our guns.

I disagree, if the police KNOW that you own a weapon and something negligent you did causes your gun to fall into the hands of a criminal who then commits a crime, you should be held responsible.

Nibs

Aright well instead of keep on stating such simple things could you help the argument by providing details?

So you can buy a handgun, legally, without a background check? The FBI does background checks and I'm sure they keep track of them.

Rifles and shotguns, what's the process there?

You can't keep saying things that sound bad without providing details. I'm sure you don't want to but you aren't helping out getting things figured out. You keep telling everybody that you can 'just go get one'. There must be more to it. If not, why? Is all you have to do is show proof of age and that's it? I'm not berating but it's hard to have a debate without the facts.

[green_dude777]

When I read it, I was floored.... If I lived in the USA, and say I kept a couple of guns in my home in case of intruders, then that would be MY responsibility, not my children's I would not leave my small children in the house alone so they would need to reach for a gun to protect themselves either.. Not saying that was the other guys case, but to ANY ONE else who has done the same.. I cannot see why a small child needs excess to a dangerous weapon?

I can understand a parent in the US keeping a gun for safety reasons, but handing a little child their own gun is astonishing.. I fret if I see my 7 year old reach for my big scissors , I put them out of her reach, I just don't trust her with them.. I cannot imagine what she would do with a gun..I don't want to think about it to be honest

Your lack of seeing the great many possibilities in life is showing.

To clear this up, I was directly supervised each time I used my rifle when I was that young, I didn't have free reign of it. Even when I was 8 or 9 and was shown where the keys to the gun cabinet were, I still wasn't allowed to just go grab my gun and target shoot, I had to have permission, and my father would be with me. I would say I was about 13 years old when I was allowed to just target shoot without permission, and that was only the .22, not the 30-06 or shotguns.

As to the 'just in case', what if my father was taken down by the intruder? What if he were outside when the intruder came inside?

[freetoroam]

When I read it, I was floored.... If I lived in the USA, and say I kept a couple of guns in my home in case of intruders, then that would be MY responsibility, not my children's I would not leave my small children in the house alone so they would need to reach for a gun to protect themselves either.. Not saying that was the other guys case, but to ANY ONE else who has done the same.. I cannot see why a small child needs excess to a dangerous weapon?

I can understand a parent in the US keeping a gun for safety reasons, but handing a little child their own gun is astonishing.. I fret if I see my 7 year old reach for my big scissors , I put them out of her reach, I just don't trust her with them.. I cannot imagine what she would do with a gun..I don't want to think about it to be honest

Its a different lifestyle we live and completely different mindset. My son had Thomas the Tank engine and power rangers, he was taught to read books and has lots of them ....we played games and I took him to museums often, but guns? no way.