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redhen

911 inside job - for what?

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It appears that you are utterly UNaware that the judiciary is in on the coverup sir, or madam. There are others, but Judge Hellerstein in Manhattan is the best example of judicial complicity in the coverup.

The only legal cases I follow are those that involve animal welfare. So from the wiki entry I see;

"In 2003, Hellerstein agreed to hear a consolidated master case against three airlines, ICTS International NV and Pinkerton's airport security firms, the World Trade Center owners, and Boeing Co., the aircraft manufacturer.

On January 12, 2006, Hellerstein dismissed the last remaining property-damage claim against New York City, while leaving pending several other suits against other parties, among them the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. According to Reuters,

October 17, 2006 federal judge Alvin K. Hellerstein rejected New York City's motion to dismiss lawsuits that requested health payments to the first responders. [1]

On December 20, 2004, Hellerstein said he would deny a government request to delay a review of whether certain Central Intelligence Agency internal files related to Iraq should be made public.

On June 3, 2005, Judge Hellerstein ordered the government to release four videos from Abu Ghraib prison and dozens of photographs from the same collection as photos that touched off the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal a year ago.

On September 29, 2005, in ACLU v. Department of Defense (caution: large PDF file), Hellerstein ordered the release of 87 more photographs and videotapes.

This is a judge who is in the pockets of "neocon warmongers"? Really?

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It appears that you are utterly UNaware that the judiciary is in on the coverup sir, or madam. There are others, but Judge Hellerstein in Manhattan is the best example of judicial complicity in the coverup.

What cover-up? You keep mentioning a "cover-up," but supplied no evidence.

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For what it's worth Sky, my own theory is that the airplanes involved at WTC (there were no Boeings at Shanksville & Pentagon) did not belong to United and American.

It would have been impossible, since only a certain number of B-757-200 series aircraft were built and accountable. I have posted fleet numbers of B-757-200s for American Airlines and United Airlines and those aircraft have been accounted for, which simply means, and proves, that you are incorrect. In addition, you failed to account for passengers and crew of those flights and failed to take into an account that the airlines reported the loss of their aircraft at the crash sites and radar tracked those aircraft as well, so there was no way those aircraft could have been switched. Furthermore, ACARS did not record those B-757s landing anywhere else and radar data does not depict those flights airborne after they crashed.

My theory is that at least one (not certain about the other) was drawn from a fleet of 767 tanker candidates delivered to MacDill some years previously.

I was at the Boeing Aircraft plant last month and there were no way a B-767 tanker could have been a candidate in 2001, because its first flight wasn't until December 21, 2006, and remember, you still have to account for the engines, which have their own unique operation and maintenance histories, as well as passengers and flight crews of those flights.

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Good job RH, in researching Hellerstein. Some honest posting, but what you have is 10 or 15 days in the life of an old man, somewhere around 70 as I understand. And those are not many days, all things considered.

What you might want to do is arrange all his decisions in all cases, or certain ones that you've mentioned, and follow them through to their termination. That's what gets interesting--the behavior and record over 10 years haggling.

In blocking the lawsuit against those security companies at Boston, he had help from Congress, as it had passed a law that absolved certain classes of companies from any liability from the events of the day, kinda like it absolved private companies from any criminal liabilities for their blatant criminal acts with the renewal of FISA II.

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It would have been impossible, since only a certain number of B-757-200 series aircraft were built and accountable. I have posted fleet numbers of B-757-200s for American Airlines and United Airlines and those aircraft have been accounted for, which simply means, and proves, that you are incorrect. In addition, you failed to account for passengers and crew of those flights and failed to take into an account that the airlines reported the loss of their aircraft at the crash sites and radar tracked those aircraft as well, so there was no way those aircraft could have been switched. Furthermore, ACARS did not record those B-757s landing anywhere else and radar data does not depict those flights airborne after they crashed.

I was at the Boeing Aircraft plant last month and there were no way a B-767 tanker could have been a candidate in 2001, because its first flight wasn't until December 21, 2006, and remember, you still have to account for the engines, which have their own unique operation and maintenance histories, as well as passengers and flight crews of those flights.

Sky its like talking to a brick wall this Babe Ruth ! I bet If a 757,767,787, were to smash right into Babes Face in broad daylight He would try to say It wasnt a Aircraft ! THe man is a bit off the beaten track !

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Sky its like talking to a brick wall this Babe Ruth ! I bet If a 757,767,787, were to smash right into Babes Face in broad daylight He would try to say It wasnt a Aircraft ! THe man is a bit off the beaten track !

He doesn't seem to realize that by claiming the aircraft were switched requires him to account for the original airframes, engines, APUs, and black boxes. He has to account for the passengers and crew of those flights and explain how to fly a switched aircraft from "A" to "B" without attracting attention from ATC since the aircraft will be flown in positive controlled airspace. I don't think he understands the requirements needed to fly an aircraft into positive controlled airspace.

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Key words in all of our post. "Dosnt Understand" Has not a clue of what happened that day ! We need to Let this guy hit the wall or better yet ,GET A LIFE !

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Key words in all of our post. "Dosnt Understand" Has not a clue of what happened that day ! We need to Let this guy hit the wall or better yet ,GET A LIFE !

BR, is known for fabricating stories and we can use his own messages as proof.

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Which 14 families are these? I'm not being snide, I just don't want to read through hundreds of pages of articles.

I don't want to commit you to writing an essay (although that would be interesting to read), but a quick and dirty summary would be helpful.

I'm just parroting what the mainstream media have reported. I know I'm a a sheep.

I have repeatedly told you I am not here to debate. I wanted to see some reasoned arguments from truthers.

Ok then, it's a shadow government.

I will check this out, resistance movements are interesting.

edit: just read an amazon summary of another book on Gladio. They claim that this right-wing anti-communist secret organization assassinated Aldo Moro. It is however an indisputable fact that he was killed by the Red Brigade, a Marxist-Lennist terror group. I have a feeling that gladio will be blamed for every terror bombing and murder in Europe. Let me dig some more.

I concede this point. Northwoods was not in the same category as other whacky ideas. This one made it all the way to the top. That's scary.

Only if it was on Oprah. lol Seriously, you raise some valid points, but I have a hard time accepting that so many people were necessarily privy to this secret plot yet it remained undiscovered.

I also have difficulty swallowing that Al Qaeda was just a tool for powerful elites. It seems to me that radical Muslim leaders have their own agenda. That they would be intentionally aiding Zionists in the world banking system sounds contradictory.

here is an article written today which answers all your questions. it is one of the best and most succinct articles I've seen written on the subject.

you can save yourself months of reading just by reading this article, so i won't waste my time writing what's already written.

"Does a shadowy group of obscenely wealthy elitists control the world? Do men and women with enormous amounts of money really run the world from behind the scenes? The answer might surprise you. Most of us tend to think of money as a convenient way to conduct transactions, but the truth is that it also represents power and control. And today we live in a neo-fuedalist system in which the super rich pull all the strings. When I am talking about the ultra-wealthy, I am not just talking about people that have a few million dollars. As you will see later in this article, the ultra-wealthy have enough money sitting in offshore banks to buy all of the goods and services produced in the United States during the course of an entire year and still be able to pay off the entire U.S. national debt. That is an amount of money so large that it is almost incomprehensible. Under this ne0-feudalist system, all the rest of us are debt slaves, including our own governments. Just look around - everyone is drowning in debt, and all of that debt is making the ultra-wealthy even wealthier. But the ultra-wealthy don't just sit on all of that wealth. They use some of it to dominate the affairs of the nations. The ultra-wealthy own virtually every major bank and every major corporation on the planet. They use a vast network of secret societies, think tanks and charitable organizations to advance their agendas and to keep their members in line. They control how we view the world through their ownership of the media and their dominance over our education system. They fund the campaigns of most of our politicians and they exert a tremendous amount of influence over international organizations such as the United Nations, the IMF, the World Bank and the WTO. When you step back and take a look at the big picture, there is little doubt about who runs the world. It is just that most people don't want to admit the truth.

The ultra-wealthy don't run down and put their money in the local bank like you and I do. Instead, they tend to stash their assets in places where they won't be taxed such as the Cayman Islands. According to a report that was released last summer, the global elite have up to 32 TRILLION dollars stashed in offshore banks around the globe.

U.S. GDP for 2011 was about 15 trillion dollars, and the U.S. national debt is sitting at about 16 trillion dollars, so you could add them both together and you still wouldn't hit 32 trillion dollars.

And of course that does not even count the money that is stashed in other locations that the study did not account for, and it does not count all of the wealth that the global elite have in hard assets such as real estate, precious metals, art, yachts, etc.

The global elite have really hoarded an incredible amount of wealth in these troubled times. The following is from an article on the Huffington Post website...

Rich individuals and their families have as much as $32 trillion of hidden financial assets in offshore tax havens, representing up to $280 billion in lost income tax revenues, according to research published on Sunday.

The study estimating the extent of global private financial wealth held in offshore accounts - excluding non-financial assets such as real estate, gold, yachts and racehorses - puts the sum at between $21 and $32 trillion.

The research was carried out for pressure group Tax Justice Network, which campaigns against tax havens, by James Henry, former chief economist at consultants McKinsey & Co.

He used data from the World Bank, International Monetary Fund, United Nations and central banks.

But as I mentioned previously, the global elite just don't have a lot of money. They also basically own just about every major bank and every major corporation on the entire planet.

According to an outstanding NewScientist article, a study of more than 40,000 transnational corporations conducted by the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich discovered that a very small core group of huge banks and giant predator corporations dominate the entire global economic system...

An analysis of the relationships between 43,000 transnational corporations has identified a relatively small group of companies, mainly banks, with disproportionate power over the global economy.

The researchers found that this core group consists of just 147 very tightly knit companies...

When the team further untangled the web of ownership, it found much of it tracked back to a "super-entity" of 147 even more tightly knit companies - all of their ownership was held by other members of the super-entity - that controlled 40 per cent of the total wealth in the network. "In effect, less than 1 per cent of the companies were able to control 40 per cent of the entire network," says Glattfelder. Most were financial institutions. The top 20 included Barclays Bank, JPMorgan Chase & Co, and The Goldman Sachs Group.

The following are the top 25 banks and corporations at the heart of this "super-entity". You will recognize many of the names on the list...

1. Barclays plc

2. Capital Group Companies Inc

3. FMR Corporation

4. AXA

5. State Street Corporation

6. JP Morgan Chase & Co

7. Legal & General Group plc

8. Vanguard Group Inc

9. UBS AG

10. Merrill Lynch & Co Inc

11. Wellington Management Co LLP

12. Deutsche Bank AG

13. Franklin Resources Inc

14. Credit Suisse Group

15. Walton Enterprises LLC

16. Bank of New York Mellon Corp

17. Natixis

18. Goldman Sachs Group Inc

19. T Rowe Price Group Inc

20. Legg Mason Inc

21. Morgan Stanley

22. Mitsubishi UFJ Financial Group Inc

23. Northern Trust Corporation

24. Société Générale

25. Bank of America Corporation

The ultra-wealthy elite often hide behind layers and layers of ownership, but the truth is that thanks to interlocking corporate relationships, the elite basically control almost every Fortune 500 corporation.

The amount of power and control that this gives them is hard to describe.

Unfortunately, this same group of people have been running things for a very long time. For example, New York City Mayor John F. Hylan said the following during a speech all the way back in 1922...

The real menace of our Republic is the invisible government, which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy legs over our cities, states and nation. To depart from mere generalizations, let me say that at the head of this octopus are the Rockefeller-Standard Oil interests and a small group of powerful banking houses generally referred to as the international bankers. The little coterie of powerful international bankers virtually run the United States government for their own selfish purposes.

They practically control both parties, write political platforms, make catspaws of party leaders, use the leading men of private organizations, and resort to every device to place in nomination for high public office only such candidates as will be amenable to the dictates of corrupt big business.

These international bankers and Rockefeller-Standard Oil interests control the majority of the newspapers and magazines in this country. They use the columns of these papers to club into submission or drive out of office public officials who refuse to do the bidding of the powerful corrupt cliques which compose the invisible government. It operates under cover of a self-created screen [and] seizes our executive officers, legislative bodies, schools, courts, newspapers and every agency created for the public protection.

These international bankers created the central banks of the world (including the Federal Reserve), and they use those central banks to get the governments of the world ensnared in endless cycles of debt from which there is no escape. Government debt is a way to "legitimately" take money from all of us, transfer it to the government, and then transfer it into the pockets of the ultra-wealthy.

Today, Barack Obama and almost all members of Congress absolutely refuse to criticize the Fed, but in the past there have been some brave members of Congress that have been willing to take a stand. For example, the following quote is from a speech that Congressman Louis T. McFadden delivered to the U.S. House of Representatives on June 10, 1932...

Mr. Chairman, we have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks. The Federal Reserve Board, a Government board, has cheated the Government of the United States and the people of the United States out of enough money to pay the national debt. The depredations and iniquities of the Federal Reserve Board has cost this country enough money to pay the national debt several times over. This evil institution has impoverished and ruined the people of the United States, has bankrupted itself, and has practically bankrupted our Government. It has done this through the defects of the law under which it operates, through the maladministration of that law by the Federal Reserve Board, and through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it.

Sadly, most Americans still believe that the Federal Reserve is a "federal agency", but that is simply not correct. The following comes from factcheck.org...

The stockholders in the 12 regional Federal Reserve Banks are the privately owned banks that fall under the Federal Reserve System. These include all national banks (chartered by the federal government) and those state-chartered banks that wish to join and meet certain requirements. About 38 percent of the nation’s more than 8,000 banks are members of the system, and thus own the Fed banks.

According to researchers that have looked into the ownership of the big Wall Street banks that dominate the Fed, the same names keep coming up over and over: the Rockefellers, the Rothschilds, the Warburgs, the Lazards, the Schiffs and the royal families of Europe.

But ultra-wealthy international bankers have not just done this kind of thing in the United States. Their goal was to create a global financial system that they would dominate and control. Just check out what Georgetown University history professor Carroll Quigley once wrote...

[T]he powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent private meetings and conferences. The apex of the system was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basle, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world’s central banks which were themselves private corporations.

Sadly, most Americans have never even heard of the Bank for International Settlements, but it is at the very heart of the global financial system. The following is from Wikipedia...

As an organization of central banks, the BIS seeks to make monetary policy more predictable and transparent among its 58 member central banks. While monetary policy is determined by each sovereign nation, it is subject to central and private banking scrutiny and potentially to speculation that affects foreign exchange rates and especially the fate of export economies. Failures to keep monetary policy in line with reality and make monetary reforms in time, preferably as a simultaneous policy among all 58 member banks and also involving the International Monetary Fund, have historically led to losses in the billions as banks try to maintain a policy using open market methods that have proven to be based on unrealistic assumptions.

The ultra-wealthy have also played a major role in establishing other important international institutions such as the United Nations, the IMF, the World Bank and the WTO. In fact, the land for the United Nations headquarters in New York City was purchased and donated by John D. Rockefeller.

The international bankers are "internationalists" and they are very proud of that fact.

The elite also dominate the education system in the United States. Over the years, the Rockefeller Foundation and other elitist organizations have poured massive amounts of money into Ivy League schools. Today, Ivy League schools are considered to be the standard against which all other colleges and universities in America are measured, and the last four U.S. presidents were educated at Ivy League schools.

The elite also exert a tremendous amount of influence through various secret societies (Skull and Bones, the Freemasons, etc.), through some very powerful think tanks and social clubs (the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, the Bilderberg Group, the Bohemian Grove, Chatham House <royal institue for international affairs, RIIA - my edit.>, etc.), and through a vast network of charities and non-governmental organizations (the Rockefeller Foundation, the Ford Foundation, the World Wildlife Fund, etc.).

But for a moment, I want to focus on the power the elite have over the media. In a previous article, I detailed how just six monolithic corporate giants control most of what we watch, hear and read every single day. These giant corporations own television networks, cable channels, movie studios, newspapers, magazines, publishing houses, music labels and even many of our favorite websites.....

....

...There is so much more that could be said about all of this. In fact, an entire library of books could be written about the power and the influence of the ultra-wealthy international bankers that run the world..."

http://theeconomicco...ing-the-strings

That’s moving into NWO territory – though I’m sure you are right, Brzezinski’s statements certainly further enforce the motive for 9/11, and that the power structure goes much higher and wider (I mentioned the appearance of a “multi-national operation” in my last post) – I just focus on the Neocon group as the most direct candidate to keep it simple, though it’s certainly an interesting web the elites weave at a higher level.

Isn’t it interesting that Brzezinski’s own ‘pawn’ turned out to be the bogeyman behind the ‘new Pearl Harbor’. There’s a photograph or two of his meeting with bin Laden on the Afghanistan border in 1980 shortly after the onset of Operation Cyclone: -

http://www.unexplain...15#entry4107567

This all helps to explain why bin Laden and ‘Al Qaeda’ were the chosen - it was an easy setup to make.

to understand power we have to realise that the tail does not wag the dog. it is inconceivable that just a group of neocons orchestrated 911 against the knowledge and will of that power described above. there are also pre-911 connections to that power that connect at a higher level through the cfr, skull and bones and brzezinski's writings etc. sure, it's easy to prove the neocons did it, but to stop there is just being played for a fool as much as those that stop at AQ are being played as fools, just mo.
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Neocons in cahoots with Israeli interests, is what it looks like to me.

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here is an article written today which answers all your questions. it is one of the best and most succinct articles I've seen written on the subject.

you can save yourself months of reading just by reading this article, so i won't waste my time writing what's already written.

Shift some money to the Pentagon.

Clock ticking to disastrous defense cuts

Because of the failure of the supercommittee to agree on a deficit reduction plan, the 2011 Budget Control Act automatically cuts about $500 billion from the defense budget. These cuts fall on top of the already agreed-upon $487 billion in reductions. All told, the cuts would amount to about $1 trillion over a decade.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/09/opinion/bennett-sequestration-defense-cuts/index.html

Pentagon issues dire warning to Congress about budget cuts

WASHINGTON (AP) - The nation's top military leaders warned Congress in unusually stark terms that its failure to pass a 2013 defense budget _ coupled with the threat of automatic budget cuts _ has pushed the Pentagon to the brink of a crisis.

http://www.federalnewsradio.com/394/3195677/Pentagon-issues-dire-warning-to-Congress-about-budget-cuts

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Neocons in cahoots with Israeli interests, is what it looks like to me.

and who do those two answer to?
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and who do those two answer to?

Just themselves? :yes:

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Just themselves? :yes:

I don't see that.

their imagined event was presented and published through the cfr, and echoed previously by brzezinski's writings as necessary for the US to prevail as hegemon. (afghanistan is the key to the "middle space" that is central asia). they may have been the technical implementors but the plan was considered necessary and came from the bowels of the establishment. Israel could not and would not have done it unaided and out of the blue, as I said the tail can't wag the dog.

''If the middle space can be drawn increasingly into the expanding orbit of the West (where America preponderates), if the southern region is not subjected to domination by a single player, and if the East is not unified in a manner that prompts the expulsion of America from its offshore bases, America can then be said to prevail. But if the middle space rebuffs the West, becomes an assertive single entity, and either gains control over the South or forms an alliance with the major Eastern actor, then America's primacy in Eurasia shrinks dramatically.'' - brzezinski, 1997

now look at what has happened since 911, the US has expanded throughout central asia encircling china and russia with bases exactly as brzezinski had outlined for the post cold war, with 911 being the pretext for all of it. I can't accept that their bogey man just fell into their laps just 3 years later.

Edited by Little Fish

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now look at what has happened since 911, the US has expanded throughout central asia encircling china and russia with bases exactly as brzezinski had outlined for the post cold war, with 911 being the pretext for all of it. I can't accept that their bogey man just fell into their laps just 3 years later.

The United States has had bases around China and Russia for decades and has since, pulled back from some bases. We've pulled combat troops out of Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and combat troops are to be pulled out of Afghanistan by the end of next year.

Russia and the United States are friends and in fact, the USAF is thinking of basing B-52 bombers in Russia. People are largely unaware that Russia has flown bombers and fighters into the United States and the United States has flown military aircraft into Russia.

800px-B-52_%26_Tu-95.jpg

B-52s and Tu-95s together on the tarmac at Barksdale AFB, Louisiana during the May 1992 Russian visit

2nd Bomb Wing delegation visits Russia

bep.jpeg?w=360&h=240&crop=1

http://www.afgsc.af....sp?id=123313284

The Bomber Exchange Program

“We’re going to fly B-52s to Russia, and they’re going to fly Tu-95 Bears to Barksdale,” 2nd Bomb Wing Commander Colonel Andrew Gebara told an Air Force Global Strike Command (hardly the chummiest of names if your goal is world peace and harmony) reporter recently. Gebara recently led a seven-member delegation from Louisiana’s Barksdale Air Force Base to Engels Air Base in Saratov, Russia, to assess the Russian base’s suitability for B-52 ops.

Read more: http://nation.time.c.../#ixzz2JUlBr2gw

In fact, many people are unaware that part of the German Air Force is operating from New Mexico.

Holloman AFB, (German Air Force Flying Training Center, New Mexico

800px-Holloman-tornado.jpg

German Luftwaffe Panavia Tornado based at Holloman AFB, New Mexico

http://www.militarya...B-Holloman.html

And, people are unaware the USAF has had MiG-21, MiG-23 and MiG-29 Soviet fighters in its inventory and the U.S. Army has been flying Soviet-built helicopters.

IMG_05733.jpg

MiG-29 at the Air Force Museum, Dayton, Ohio.

IMG_0573.jpg

MiG-29, two-seater, at the Air Force Museum, Dayton, Ohio.

fulcrum.jpg

MiG-29 in Nevada

fulcrum0.jpg

MiG-29 in Nevada

Were you aware that some McDonnell-Douglas MD-80s were built in China?

Edited by skyeagle409

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to understand power we have to realise that the tail does not wag the dog. it is inconceivable that just a group of neocons orchestrated 911 against the knowledge and will of that power described above. there are also pre-911 connections to that power that connect at a higher level through the cfr, skull and bones and brzezinski's writings etc. sure, it's easy to prove the neocons did it, but to stop there is just being played for a fool as much as those that stop at AQ are being played as fools, just mo.

Is a dog and tail the best way to visualize this? In many ways it’s more a symbiotic relationship - the Wolf and Raven seem a fitting comparison to the Neocon and elite. The ravens feed on the wolves’ kill, certainly would not disapprove, and often guide the way. Still, it is the wolf most directly and visibly responsible for the attack - as you mention, it is easy to prove that the Neocons did it. But how could we ever prove that the ravens were equally responsible? Can we nail responsibility on the elites to the same degree as Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc? I think you agree not (and that is a problem), but that we should be aware of the greater chessboard.

Of course, all this would appropriately make Al Qaeda the wolf in sheep’s clothing!

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Iif the southern region is not subjected to domination by a single player, and if the East is not unified in a manner that prompts the expulsion of America from its offshore bases, America can then be said to prevail.

Leading the charge for American world domination are fast food chains and soft drink manufacturers.

http://rbth.ru/articles/2012/08/24/quiznos_fast-food_chain_enters_russian_market_17647.html

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Thats right CT fans We dont need no stinkin Secret weapons ! We have Big-Mac`s IT will Kill millions in the next few years over seas ! :gun:

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Thats right CT fans We dont need no stinkin Secret weapons ! We have Big-Mac`s IT will Kill millions in the next few years over seas ! :gun:

Yepper!!

On another note, 911 CT folks depend much on Richard Gage and Steven Jones in regards to thermite, but what they didn't know was that Richard Gage got caught lying during an interview about thermite, the collapse of the WTC buildings and the number of people he claimed heard explosions. An examination of seismic data proved beyond any doubt that Richard Gage was incorrect on his claim that the WTC buildings collapsed at free fall speeds, but no seismic data was needed to determine that the WTC buildings did not collapse at free fall speeds because it was evident in the videos the WTC buildings did not collapse at free fall speeds and yet there are 911 CT folks who allowed themselves to be duped by Richard Gage.

In addition, Steven Jones has been discredited by demolition experts and even by his colleagues at BYU.

Edited by skyeagle409
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Is a dog and tail the best way to visualize this?

In many ways it’s more a symbiotic relationship - the Wolf and Raven seem a fitting comparison to the Neocon and elite.
But how could we ever prove that the ravens were equally responsible?
Can we nail responsibility on the elites
we should be aware of the greater chessboard.
Of course, all this would appropriately make Al Qaeda the wolf in sheep’s clothing!

Truthers seem really big on metaphors, not so much on logic.

Metaphorically speaking, I think your theory is a shot in the dark.

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I agree with Q, regarding the best way to visualize, if visualization is part of the process of understanding. Tail wagging dog is just an analogy, but it works pretty well for me.

I am not sufficiently educated about all the nuances of The Powers That Be to make any valid perceptions. "Elite" encompasses many people, for me.

Israel in cahoots with neocons, in cahoots with others, is how I see it. Bollyn blames it all on the Israelis, and makes a pretty good case for it, but in the end, it was certainly a team effort. For me, I cannot say with any certainty who the other members of the team were.

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I agree with Q, regarding the best way to visualize, if visualization is part of the process of understanding. Tail wagging dog is just an analogy, but it works pretty well for me.

Sure, analogies sometimes can be useful and can be valid parts of an argument. Other times analogies and metaphors are simply cheap ways of masking flaws in an weak argument. The only reason I responded was that Q's latest post was chock full of these visualizations.

I am not sufficiently educated about all the nuances of The Powers That Be to make any valid perceptions. "Elite" encompasses many people, for me.

Yeah, it's all pretty vague isn't it? It's more like a hunch or a feeling.

Israel in cahoots with neocons, in cahoots with others, is how I see it. Bollyn blames it all on the Israelis, and makes a pretty good case for it, but in the end, it was certainly a team effort. For me, I cannot say with any certainty who the other members of the team were.

A team effort? Perhaps this A Team?

ateam.jpg

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Truthers seem really big on metaphors, not so much on logic.

Metaphorically speaking, I think your theory is a shot in the dark.

Did you know there is believed to be a link between the use of analogies (under which metaphors fall) and cognitive ability; memory, reasoning, learning? Perhaps it is no coincidence that you observe, "Truthers seem really big on metaphors". I see no reason to disagree there.

http://cogsci.uni-os...st_KIThemenheft

Anyhow, thank you – your opinion doesn’t demonstrate any understanding of the subject or metaphor(s), let alone attempt constructive evaluation of the logic therein – therefore I’m not sure the theory is a shot in the dark so much as your views remain in the dark. But don’t worry about it, the post wasn’t aimed at you and neither is it intended to form a solid argument. It was more of a musing toward people who have progressed to the level to consider it.

If you have time and want to go back to something more useful, then you might better address my post #710. I took your lack of response to the information and questions (in particular regarding ‘Neocon goals’ and ‘what would you have done in the CIA position?’) as an admission of your acceptance.

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Anyhow, thank you – your opinion doesn’t demonstrate any understanding of the subject or metaphor(s), let alone attempt constructive evaluation of the logic therein

That's because I didn't see any logic. All I keep seeing is a bunch of names of people, organizations, categories of people or occupations, allegedly all tied together for some nefarious purpose, that involved the murder of 3,000 U.S. citizens on American soil.

If you have time and want to go back to something more useful, then you might better address my post #710. I took your lack of response to the information and questions (in particular regarding ‘Neocon goals’ and ‘what would you have done in the CIA position?’) as an admission of your acceptance.

You wrote;

The one overriding goal was to maintain American global pre-eminence into the 21st century - a noble enough goal in of itself. You see, it’s not that Neocon aims are “crazy” or “evil” or “dumb” as I’ve heard people say. They actually achieved a lot and their arguments are logically quite sound. Anyhow, to achieve that overriding goal, the Neocons believed this depended heavily on three interlinked sub-goals: -
  • To increase influence in the Gulf region.
  • To increase military spending back to Cold War levels.
  • To control access to the region’s oil.

All three have been achieved due to 9/11; the “transforming event” which the Neocons knew was required. Is it a coincidence that the catalyst; the most significant attack on the U.S. since Pearl Harbor, came within the year those very same policy-makers came to power?

The same goals can also be attributed to the Soviet... er I mean Russian empire. Your insinuation that the timing of the attacks and the then recent U.S. election was more than coincidental, is just that, an insinuation. So let me revise my claim;

Truthers are heavy into metaphor, analogy, insinuation, inferences and implications.

I previously had suggested we take up a collection here on the UM forum to enable a court case to be filed against Bush, Cheney et al. But I see someone actually tried that, with less than stellar results, lol.

"Army specialist April Gallup filed suit claiming that Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and other Bush administration officials orchestrated the 9/11 attacks and the Pentagon was hit by an attack ordered by Cheney. The suit was dismissed in 2010 by Judge Denny Chin, who said the claim was "the product of cynical delusion and fantasy". Her lawyers filed an appeal to the U.S. Court of Appeals which in April 2010 issued a show cause order why the lawyers and Gallup should not be sanctioned for filing a frivolous lawsuit. Her lawyers asked that the judges on the Court of Appeals recuse themselves because their emotions made them prejudge the case and abuse their power. On October 14, 2011 the judges sanctioned her lawyers $15,000 each for both the frivolous lawsuits and the accusations of prejudice"

So, forget about my request to "put your money where your mouth is", you seem like a decent enough fellow, I wouldn't want you to lose your shirt.

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Israel in cahoots with neocons, in cahoots with others, is how I see it. Bollyn blames it all on the Israelis, and makes a pretty good case for it, but in the end, it was certainly a team effort. For me, I cannot say with any certainty who the other members of the team were.

You must remember that Israel was one of a number of countries that warned the United States of an impending attack by terrorist.

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