Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 2
Bluefinger

The Apocalypse Explained

123 posts in this topic

Hello. I don't know if you read my responses, but the book of Revelation is very much in line with what Jesus taught in the narratives, especially the parables. Since Revelation uses symbols, it makes sense to turn to the parables for more information.

I did read your responses actually, and no offense, but I find them to have virtually no merit.

Christ's parables are not about the prophecies of Revelation, nor are they in any way expressed in the same way. Christ's parables are designed as teaching mechanisms meant to connect with Christ's already expressed literal explanation in order to help generalize the overall concept, which are especially helpful for the more abstract thinkers. I should know, I'm studying for a career in teaching. It's a basic teaching tool.

You start out with explaining a concept in a simplistic literal explanation. Then after and/or through out the explanation you introduce a few or so cryptic thought provoking mechanisms to encourage the students to ask questions and therefore nurish their overall engagement in the subject. Then you give a clever thought out metaphor or parable to connect and generalize the overall concept. Then finally end it with questions.

John's book of Revelation is practically chicken scratch compared to Christ's parables. Revelation is in no way told as a narrative, nor is it a clever teaching method. It's more like one of the one time posters on here that posts a thread about some off the wall lunacy with absolutely no supportive evidence, referances, and least of all proof.

I'm not trying to insult you, in fact I find your passion for Christianity quite commendable. I'm just hoping to open your mind to what at least I believe to be a more realistic perspective.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm much more interested in the apocalypse described by Jesus Christ himself as opposed to the random nonsensual dribble expressed by John, the writer of Revelation...

In defence of John, Revelation begins normally enough, as God gives him various messages to pass around the early christian churches to keep them on track, but then it's as if God says to him "I may as well just run this past you", and shows John a video of all the things that are going to happen on earth.

Of course, poor John's human mind can't make sense of what he's seeing, so he simply writes it down as best he can, even though it seems like dribble..;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...So basically, 666 is a false Christianity..

Thanks, and what exactly does this mean about being marked on foreheads and hands, what sort of mark?-

Revelation 14:9/10- "A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury.."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People still seem to be missing my main point. Jesus Christ is the son of God. He's the only perfect being that's ever existed, and there's plenty of scripture about his life and teachings... Yet for some reason we spend our time taking imperfect human's words and actions as God given truth, despite whether they directly contradict Christ's teachings or not...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did read your responses actually, and no offense, but I find them to have virtually no merit.

Christ's parables are not about the prophecies of Revelation, nor are they in any way expressed in the same way. Christ's parables are designed as teaching mechanisms meant to connect with Christ's already expressed literal explanation in order to help generalize the overall concept, which are especially helpful for the more abstract thinkers. I should know, I'm studying for a career in teaching. It's a basic teaching tool.

I dunno Aquila. It feels like you're not even trying; like its something you just don't want to mess with. And that's fine. But please don't respond then. That way the discussion can continue, rather than stop.

Jesus said that He only explained things plainly to His disciples, and that the parables were meant to keep the blind unaware of what was coming. So it is with Revelation. Contrary to your opinion, it is not chickenscratch. It is well designed actually.

You start out with explaining a concept in a simplistic literal explanation. Then after and/or through out the explanation you introduce a few or so cryptic thought provoking mechanisms to encourage the students to ask questions and therefore nurish their overall engagement in the subject. Then you give a clever thought out metaphor or parable to connect and generalize the overall concept. Then finally end it with questions.

John's book of Revelation is practically chicken scratch compared to Christ's parables. Revelation is in no way told as a narrative, nor is it a clever teaching method. It's more like one of the one time posters on here that posts a thread about some off the wall lunacy with absolutely no supportive evidence, referances, and least of all proof.

Okay. I see where you're coming from. I just think you are approaching apocalyptic literature from the wrong perspective. Indeed, it isn't a narrative, but it has narratives in it (Rev. 12-14, for example.) It isn't an instructional piece either, but it has instruction in it (like the messages to the seven churches in Rev. 2-3.) Its not lunacy either. I just don't think you're explored it very well.

Apocalyptic writing is its own genre of literature. In Revelation, the history is established in chapter 1. In chapters 2-3, the intended audiences are instructed how to stay faithful and what the results of their choices would be. Chapters 4-9 describe the times of the Jews, showing that it would come to an end with Jerusalem's destruction, similar to Jesus' parables (though less clear, yes.) Chapter 10 interrupts the sequence to explain a new prophecy about the times of the Gentiles (10:11.) Chapter 11 shortly explains what would happen during that time and how it would all end, culminating with the return of Jesus at Jerusalem upon the blasting of the seventh trumpet. Chapters 12-14 given an account of the persecution of the saints and their deliverance from the Babylonian Exile to the return of Jesus. So the theme is faithfulness in persecution, which would have been relevant to Smyrna, Pergamos, and Philadelphia. Chapter 15 introduces the God's wrath against those that made war on the saints and chapter 16 describes how that wrath would play out upon the 'beast' and those that took the mark of its name. Chapter 17 describes the destruction of the Roman Church and chapter 18 indulges in hyperboly to demonstrate the dangers of loving money and power; a message relevant to Laodicea and Thyatira. Finally, chapter 19 details the return of Jesus and chapter 20 describes the setting up of his kingdom. Chapters 21-22 describe all things being made new and the fulfillment of all of God's promises.

These are all these that Jesus spoke about.

In your responses, you said nothing about the audience (seven churches), the historical background laid out in chapter 1, or the themes mentioned in the book.

Jesus' Gospels flow in the same manner as Revelation, such as Mattew 22:1-14's parable of the wedding feast, which described the destruction of Jerusalem for rejecting the Gospel and killing the saaints; and the kingdom spreading to the Gentiles, as shown in Rev. 7, Rev. 10:11, Rev. 11, and Rev. 12:17. It even describes someone who crept into the kingdom that had no business being there, which Rev. 13 shows is the false prophet and those that take the mark of the beast. This is also reiterated at the end of Rev. 20.

What I think is important about Revelation is that it is the only piece in the New Testament that thoroughly describes what would happen to Jerusalem as well as what would happen during the times of the Gentiles, something the rest of Scripture, save for Daniel 7, is silent about.

I'm not trying to insult you, in fact I find your passion for Christianity quite commendable. I'm just hoping to open your mind to what at least I believe to be a more realistic perspective.

I appreciate it. I have been realistic about it, otherwise I would not have ever abandoned futurism. I am on a quest for truth, and I can't shake the nagging feeling that Revelation is true.

If one could deduce that Revelation was written before Jerusalem's destruction, then it becomes even more true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, and what exactly does this mean about being marked on foreheads and hands, what sort of mark?-

Revelation 14:9/10- "A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury.."

I wrote a follow up piece on this immediately after my first response on 666. The mark on the foreheads and hands comes from the Old Testament, about how God told the Jews to follow the Law to the 'T.'

"And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes." (Deuteronomy 6:6-8 ESV)[/i]

So, basically, the beast would institute a law that its followers would take that demonstrated their faithfulness to it. Those that took the mark were rejecting the salvation of Christ. And like the Jews that rejected them and were subjected to the curse of the law, which includes the plagues of Egypt (Duet. 28:15-68,) so these Gentiles that took the mark would also be cursed.

Interesting. The Jews followed the Torah so that they would enjoy God's blessings only to find themselves excluded. The Gentiles followed their own religious law so that they would have eternal life in heaven. Ironically, these are the ones subjected to the 'second death.' Like what Babylon (Rome) is told:

""The fruit for which your soul longed has gone from you, and all your delicacies and your splendors are lost to you, never to be found again!" (Revelation 18:14 ESV)

I think that this still all relates to the kingdom of God. In Matthew 21:43, the Jews were told by Jesus that the kingdom of God would be taken from them and given to nations producing fruit for the Gospel. The times of the Jews ended in 70 CE and the times of the Gentiles began. At the height of its power, the Roman Church would become prideful and power-hungry, seeking to accrue much wealth for itself. Those that challenged its authority were put to death. Those that submitted to its authority also submitted themselves to a life of bondage to the canon law. At one point, the Church of Rome even permitted a priest to preach salvation for the purchase of indulgences; an act that sparked revolution in the Church. Their sermon was not that the poor would find equality in justice in God's kingdom, as Jesus taught, but rather that God is angry at their sin and ready to damn them to eternity if they do not pay for the indulgence and let the Church of Rome remiss their sins.

So, when we speak of evil in the Church, we tend to always revert back to the Middle Ages, with crusades and inquisitions. This, I think is the greatest indication of what the mark was and who bore it. I will say it plainly now: The mark of the beast was Roman Catholicism. It was a state-sponsored religion that cared more for monasticism than it did for social equality. Social inequality eventually caught up with it when the French revolutionaries overthrew its power and chopped the heads off of the priests at the guillotine.

However, just like when Jesus came, one can be a Catholic without submitting to the false religion of justification by works (or by indulgences), just like one can be accepted into the Abrahamic Covenant without having to get circumcised. Jesus freed us from bondage to the Law. We should not be placing ourselves back under it.

And if any are curious. The Roman Church gained primacy after the Great Schism of 1054. The schism between Rome and Constantinople occurred because Rome was criticizing Constantinople on its use of leavened bread during the Eucharist, an accusation akin to justification by the Mosaic Law.

Edited by Bluefinger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This seems to be the last piece that I'm still working on. Every reader is at default to believe that the seven churches were seven literal churches when Revelation was written.

Yet, the introduction of Jesus in chapter 1:13-18 sounds almost exactly like the description of one like the son of man that Daniel described in Daniel 10:5-14. Both Daniel and John collapsed when they saw this person. Such behavior would characterize someone standing in the presence of the most holy God. What Daniel was told in Dan. 10:14 was that the message he was receiving concerned his people (Jews) and his city (Jerusalem) in the end times, which is detailed in Dan. 11 and 12. Of course, what he meant was the end of the Times of the Jews, which occurred in 70 CE. So Daniel was given an account of Jewish history from his time until Jerusalem was destroyed. Now look at Rev. 1:19. It says:

"Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this." (Revelation 1:19 ESV)

It seems to me that the mystery of the seven churches is that they make up major events in Church history, to which Christ's words would be given in the letters, just as Daniel was given a history of what would happen to the Jews until Jerusalem was destroyed and its people scattered. But I have not come up with a satisfactory interpretation to support that yet, so I must maintain that they were seven literal churches only.

What I am looking at right now is the possibility that these seven churches were actually places that the Christians in Judea fled to when the Romans declared war on Judea. That would explain why there is no mention of four of those seven churches in Acts or any of the epistles. They were along main roads, so its obvious that those that fled stuck to the highway, which was secured by the Romans. Considering that the Jews despised the followers of Jesus, the disciples had no problem getting past the Romans. They weren't even considered Jews by their own brethren!

That would mean that the book of Revelation was written either shortly before or during the war against Judea. We would then have to take into account the historical background behind the prophecies and work that time in history into the sequence of events that were foretold.

Would suggest that the crucial ' secret meaning' in Chapter 1 verse 20 is the geographical location of the 7 churches because they are arranged in two alignments which Jesus and Mary of Magdala were clearly aware of. This is a fact that can be easily demonstrated and verified by anyone who cares to do so. It is based on the 7 churches or locations chosen by Jesus and to which he sent messages in the first 3 chapters of Revelations. Because the book of Revelations is centred around the number 7 it is constantly reminding us of this number which is so important because of the 7 locations he chose. You say you are still trying to work out this part of Revelations well would suggest that you start with the latitude and longitude of Christ's chosen sites, then all will be revealed, which is the meaning of an Apocalypse... to reveal that which is hidden....and as this secret is now known we must be in a time of Revelation ... QED

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

..The mark on the foreheads and hands comes from the Old Testament, about how God told the Jews to follow the Law to the 'T.'

I will say it plainly now: The mark of the beast was Roman Catholicism...

So the mark wasn't some kind of tattoo?

And are you saying it only applies to Roman Catholicism, even today?

For example does it also apply to moderm Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and assorted cultists etc?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

..Either way, the main thing is that spending so much time deciefering the apocalypse instead of trying to save people's lives is in my opinion a very poor assessment of priorities...

Yes, Paul said- "I'm worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Cor 11:3)

But we can still have FUN discussing Revelation and other bits of the Bible as long as we don't become obsessed by them..:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the mark wasn't some kind of tattoo?

And are you saying it only applies to Roman Catholicism, even today?

For example does it also apply to moderm Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and assorted cultists etc?

Hard to say for certain. Revelation 12 and 13 only accounted for the Roman Empire, the Germanic Roman Empire and the Spanish Empire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The TWO witnesses are not the church. They are obviously 2 people (most likely Enoch and Elijah). Zech. 4:11-14, Rev. 11:3-12. (Keyword for these 2 scripture passages is "TWO".)

(1.) Elijah was a prophet to Israel. Elijah has not died yet (2 Kings 2:11). Elijah will comeback before the Great and Dreadfull Day of the LORD (Mal. 4:5-6).

(2.) Enoch was a prophet to the Gentiles (Jude 14). Enoch has not died yet (heb. 11:5).

(3.) heb. 9:27 " It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The TWO witnesses are not the church. They are obviously 2 people (most likely Enoch and Elijah). Zech. 4:11-14, Rev. 11:3-12. (Keyword for these 2 scripture passages is "TWO".)

(1.) Elijah was a prophet to Israel. Elijah has not died yet (2 Kings 2:11). Elijah will comeback before the Great and Dreadfull Day of the LORD (Mal. 4:5-6).

(2.) Enoch was a prophet to the Gentiles (Jude 14). Enoch has not died yet (heb. 11:5).

(3.) heb. 9:27 " It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement."

I get your point. I just don't agree. The TWO witnesses relate the to manner of their witness, not the number of their count. I showed in Zech. 4 that one of the olive trees was a line of priests while the other olive tree was a line of kings. And I showed in Rev. 1:6, 5:10, and 20:6 that the saints are made priests and kings by the blood of Jesus.

Concerning Enoch, the descriptions of the two witnesses don't fit. And beside, there are plenty of Christians that haven't died. It's an assumption that goes against everything else laid out in the book of Revelation to say that the two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah.

Their identities match Joshua the High Priest and Zerubbabel the governor. The way they are treated are akin to Smyrna and Laodicea. Their plagues resemble Eljiah and Moses. But nothing resembles Enoch.

These are the saints that keep the commands of God and hold the testimony of Jesus (Rev. 12:17.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Without further ado, the 144,000 are those who first heard the Gospel and those who first believed them."

When you say that this group, the 140'000, were the first to accept the gospels, does this mean that the protection of said individuals has already happened and thus, that the angels have already protected them from the winds? If that's the case, hasn't Revelation already begun.

Edited by Sean93

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Revelations is what it is, a man dreams, some say of his times, but others say of the furture, but anything can be read in them the code of the sixes are of a man that marked his people with santions not to buy or sell with out the mark. Saddam Hussian, how many sixes do you want:)

S/RES/687 (1991)

8 April 1991

RESOLUTION 687 (1991)

Adopted by the Security Council at its 2981st meeting, on 3 April 1991

The Security Council,

Recalling its resolutions 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990, 661 (1990) of 6 August 1990, 662 (1990) of 9 August 1990, 664 (1990) of 18 August 1990, 665 (1990) of 25 August 1990, 666 (1990) of 13 September 1990, 667 (1990) of 16 September 1990, 669 (1990) of 24 September 1990, 670 (1990) of 25 September 1990, 674 (1990) of 29 October 1990, 677 (1990) of 28 November 1990, 678 (1990) of 29 November 1990 and 686 (1991) of 2 March 1991,

Edited by docyabut2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

666 as the mark of the beast represents the Roman Catholic Canon Law. 666, as a number of a man, counts out Nero's name. ...

I'm afraid it is logically impossible. First, lets take two descriptions about the mark of the Beast

Rev 13:16-17 (KJ)

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Rev 14:9-10

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb

It is obvious that mark of the Beast must have not only religious but also economic repercussions, so it can't be something as simple as Canon Law. Also, it is against God's justice to punish all people who obey the Roman Catholic Canon Law, just because they do so, there are surely some Roman catholic people who are deemed just and mercifull in God's eyes and are saved.

Mark of the Beast according to Rev. on other hand definitely has a lot to do with the Law, and has to be something visible and accepted by personal decision, that leaves no moral ambiguity, so that Rev 14:9-10 can be applied.

If you had a chance to study Kur'an prophecies about end of time, it is stated that Isa the prophet (Jesus) will return and that he will proclaim that he is not God but a powerfull prophet, and that he will unite all religions into one world religion. There is the place where you have to search for your Mark of The Beast.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When you say that this group, the 140'000, were the first to accept the gospels, does this mean that the protection of said individuals has already happened and thus, that the angels have already protected them from the winds? If that's the case, hasn't Revelation already begun.

I explained earlier in one of my posts that trumpets 1-6 were regarding the destruction of Jerusalem as foretold so many times by Jesus. Before it came, those who Christ foreknew were sealed by the Gospel and chased out of Judea by the Jews. Those that remained looked for signs that its desolation was near. And so they fled.

I could post supporting scripture again, but I'd rather you look over my older posts and see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm afraid it is logically impossible. First, lets take two descriptions about the mark of the Beast

Rev 13:16-17 (KJ)

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Rev 14:9-10

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb

It is obvious that mark of the Beast must have not only religious but also economic repercussions, so it can't be something as simple as Canon Law. Also, it is against God's justice to punish all people who obey the Roman Catholic Canon Law, just because they do so, there are surely some Roman catholic people who are deemed just and mercifull in God's eyes and are saved.

I disagree. When Martin Luther stood up against Rome, it wasn't because he wanted a different church. Its because Rome's doctrines were ruining the grace of God. These people were also those that killed other Christians in crusades and yielded during the inquisition. The Roman Church told people that their number was up if they sinned again after Baptism and that the only way to buy time out of purgatory was to purchase indulgences. Yet the very socio-economic status they bore that promoted so much sin was supported by the Roman Church, whom was made wealthy by French, German, English, and Spanish kings.

The mark occurs during the second beast, not the first. The Spanish Empire was notorious for its zeal for the Roman Church, the Spanish Inquisition, and the ones who spread Catholicism to its greatest extent (America.) It chased out the Protestants in France and killed Jews in Spain. It placed antilabor laws for Jews in the Holy Roman Empire and they were forced to wear yellow badges so that people would not do business with them. This was a very uncertain time in Europe for Christians as well. A mere accusation could have your property confiscated and you put on trial at the Inquisition. Surely, the Roman Church's darkest time was during the Spanish Empire.

Mark of the Beast according to Rev. on other hand definitely has a lot to do with the Law, and has to be something visible and accepted by personal decision, that leaves no moral ambiguity, so that Rev 14:9-10 can be applied.

If you had a chance to study Kur'an prophecies about end of time, it is stated that Isa the prophet (Jesus) will return and that he will proclaim that he is not God but a powerfull prophet, and that he will unite all religions into one world religion. There is the place where you have to search for your Mark of The Beast.

One problem: The first beast is evidently the fourth beast of Daniel 7. Rev. 13:1 shows that. That beast was the Roman Empire. Thus, the first beast of Rev. 13 is the Roman Empire. And the second beast works in the presence of the first.

Therefore it cannot be Islamic nations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are spreading confusion. Nothing you say to people who have studied the bible makes any sense. It is my hope that you will re-read the bible slowly and think about what you are saying.

The triblulation hasn't even started yet like you have stated.

The two wittnesses are just that TWO WITTNESSES. (people)

The 144,000 ARE Jews as stated in Rev. 7.

The mark of the Beast is most likely a micro chip considering you can't buy or sell without it. (youtube "IBM RFID COMMERCIAL")

You have stated so much that is wrong I don't want to stay here all day and correct you on everything but i think you get my point. Please study more and ask GOD for understanding. After all you don't want to be judged for incorrect teaching.

If anyone is interested they can Youtube Perry stone, or go to hallindsey.com, or jvim.com. These people are very informative! they cross todays world events with Bible prophecy

Edited by Ogbin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is Revelation FOR anyway?

If God revealed things to John in it, what was his purpose for doing so?

And why is it in a kind of code, why isn't it in plain simple language?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are spreading confusion. Nothing you say to people who have studied the bible makes any sense. It is my hope that you will re-read the bible slowly and think about what you are saying.

That's not an argument. Please address my points and show me how my supporting Scripture references are misinterpreted. Thank you.

The triblulation hasn't even started yet like you have stated.

Then what do you call the Diocletian Persecution, the Crusade against the Waldenses, the Hussite wars, the suppression of Protestantism, an the Spanish Inquisition?

The two wittnesses are just that TWO WITTNESSES. (people)

I've sufficiently defended my intepretation in earlier posts and I don't feel that I need to reiterate my points. Dismissal is not an argument. Prove my points wrong by directly addressing them please.

The 144,000 ARE Jews as stated in Rev. 7.

I agree. And they were sealed before Jerusalem was destroyed.

The mark of the Beast is most likely a micro chip considering you can't buy or sell without it. (youtube "IBM RFID COMMERCIAL")

Maybe you should take your own advice and read the Bible more slowly and carefully:

"And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes." (Deuteronomy 6:6-8 ESV)

Direct reference to the Mosaic Law, which Paul said condemned men to curses and death.

You have stated so much that is wrong I don't want to stay here all day and correct you on everything but i think you get my point. Please study more and ask GOD for understanding. After all you don't want to be judged for incorrect teaching.

Or you just don't know what you are talking about and can't adequately defend your interpretation.

If anyone is interested they can Youtube Perry stone, or go to hallindsey.com, or jvim.com. These people are very informative! they cross todays world events with Bible prophecy

I'm going to have to call you out on trolling. Please stop. Evidently your a futurist. And that is okay.

But I don't want the OP being derailed. Either challenge something specifically or let the others discuss it. If you don't have anything good to contribute then don't contribute anything. And if you to tell me I'm doing everything wrong, please save space on this thread by sending me a private message.

Have a good day

Edited by Bluefinger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is Revelation FOR anyway?

If God revealed things to John in it, what was his purpose for doing so?

And why is it in a kind of code, why isn't it in plain simple language?

At that time, the disciples of Jesus were being persecuted by both Jews and Gentiles.

Half the book details the judgment on Jerusalem and the destruction of the Jewish nation (seven seals, including trumpets 1-6) and the disciples' deliverance from that destruction (144,000 sealed) while the other half details the persecution of the saints (Rev. 12:17, 13) during the Times of the Gentiles (Rev 10:11, 11:1-13) as well as the judgment on the Western Roman Empire (Rev 16) and the punishment of Rome for persecuting the saints (Rev 17-18).

The information was coded with symbols and Scriptural references from the OT so that the Jews and Romans would dismiss the Christians as loonies without giving a second thought about what was given in the letters. Just like parables.

It was for Christ's disciples to know the truth of his parables, not for those who refused the Gospel.

"Then the disciples came and said to him, "Why do you speak to them in parables?" And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." Matthew 13:10-13 ESV)

The message that the kingdom of God was going to be taken away from the Jews and given to the Gentiles was hidden from the eyes of the Jews. As the war neared, many went out proclaiming to be Israel's deliverer, only to lead the Jews to destruction. Had that not happened, Jesus' disciples would never have been chased out of Judea and God's acceptance would have never reached the other nations. (Matthew 21:42-45, 22:1-14.)

Edited by Bluefinger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Bluefinger,

I've been reading your posts and I find it very difficult to get an idea of what is behind them. I have a really different outlook in regards to all the questions you planned on talking about, but I won't get into that here because that will foul up the thread badly. What I would appreciate is to give your specific stance in regards to the interpretation you are putting forward.

For example are you a Preterist, a Historicist, a Futurist or a Dispensionalist?

Are you a Premillennialist, Postmillennialist or Amillennialist?

380px-Millennial_views.svg.png

375px-Tribulation_views.svg.png

There are many nuances and positions within Christian Eschatology. Each one influences the way verses are read and how they are interpreted in light of what other verses say.

Since I classify myself as a Pre-Tribulational Dispensationalist, I'm wondering how you would classify your particular view?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting topic for sure.

How about this scenerio...

The angels gave John a DVD to read from. I think because we are the ones with DVD players in the present we are seeing what might have been. The ‘Seven Seals’ is a phrase in the Book of Revelation (Christian Bible) that refers to seven seals that secure the book or scroll, that John on Patmos Island (in 95 CE) saw as part of his Revelation of Jesus Christ.

This ‘book’ seen by John was held in the hand of a visiting Angel and contained ‘visions’ of the future. Those ‘visions’ are specifically documented by John, as he was told by the Angel to write down what he saw and what he was told...but he is not the only biblical writer to tell a story about a personal encounter with an Angel showing or explaining the contents from a ‘book of the future’. Ezekiel and Daniel both told similar stories where they had visions explaining the contents from a book of the future.

When biblical descriptions are compared to modern history there is a 90% match of details. I believe in the near future our civilization will understand the other 10% and the truth will be known. I think it's highly possible that the mystical angels and gods that are mentioned in our ancient scriptures were from another world or could they even be from our future? They understood that everything went in cycles ... what happened before will happen again and tried to tell us or maybe warn us to make changes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since I classify myself as a Pre-Tribulational Dispensationalist, I'm wondering how you would classify your particular view?

Beat me to it Jor-El! I was gonna ask a similar question from my agnostic view point. How are y'all certain the way you're interpreting a verse is the correct way?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Bluefinger,

I've been reading your posts and I find it very difficult to get an idea of what is behind them. I have a really different outlook in regards to all the questions you planned on talking about, but I won't get into that here because that will foul up the thread badly. What I would appreciate is to give your specific stance in regards to the interpretation you are putting forward.

For example are you a Preterist, a Historicist, a Futurist or a Dispensionalist?

Are you a Premillennialist, Postmillennialist or Amillennialist?

380px-Millennial_views.svg.png

375px-Tribulation_views.svg.png

There are many nuances and positions within Christian Eschatology. Each one influences the way verses are read and how they are interpreted in light of what other verses say.

Since I classify myself as a Pre-Tribulational Dispensationalist, I'm wondering how you would classify your particular view?

Hi Jor-el, thanks for responding. I don't hold any eschatological format because I disagree with them all.

If anything, I'm closest to a historicist dispensationalist, meaning I believe that eschatology first came to the Jews when John the Baptist announced that the kingdom of God had come. That eschatology lasted until Jerusalem was destroyed and the kingdom of God was taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles (Matt. 21:42-45, Matt. 22:1-14.)

That sparked the Times of the Gentiles. Our eschatology comes when the Fullness of the Gentiles has been reached (Romans 11:25), by which the return of Jesus will be centered on Jerusalem.

So half of the Apocalypse of St. John recognizes the end of the Times of the Jews (Rev. 1:3, Rev. 5-9) and the other half recognizes the Times of the Gentiles (Rev. 10-18.)

Chapter 19 shows the eschaton in which Jesus literally comes from heaven and establishes His rule over all governments, as hinted at in Rev. 11:15-19 and 14:14-20.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 2

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.