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Bluefinger

The Apocalypse Explained

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Beat me to it Jor-El! I was gonna ask a similar question from my agnostic view point. How are y'all certain the way you're interpreting a verse is the correct way?

All eschatologists use Scripture. Most take the references out of context though, which is why I left preterism, futurism, and historicism (along with their subcategories.)

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All eschatologists use Scripture. Most take the references out of context though, which is why I left preterism, futurism, and historicism (along with their subcategories.)

But then couldn't you yourself be taking references out of context and not know it?

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Interesting topic for sure.

How about this scenerio...

The angels gave John a DVD to read from. I think because we are the ones with DVD players in the present we are seeing what might have been. The ‘Seven Seals’ is a phrase in the Book of Revelation (Christian Bible) that refers to seven seals that secure the book or scroll, that John on Patmos Island (in 95 CE) saw as part of his Revelation of Jesus Christ.

This ‘book’ seen by John was held in the hand of a visiting Angel and contained ‘visions’ of the future. Those ‘visions’ are specifically documented by John, as he was told by the Angel to write down what he saw and what he was told...but he is not the only biblical writer to tell a story about a personal encounter with an Angel showing or explaining the contents from a ‘book of the future’. Ezekiel and Daniel both told similar stories where they had visions explaining the contents from a book of the future.

When biblical descriptions are compared to modern history there is a 90% match of details. I believe in the near future our civilization will understand the other 10% and the truth will be known. I think it's highly possible that the mystical angels and gods that are mentioned in our ancient scriptures were from another world or could they even be from our future? They understood that everything went in cycles ... what happened before will happen again and tried to tell us or maybe warn us to make changes.

The problem with futurism is that it ignores the last 2,000 years of Christian suffering to introduce an eschatology by which the whole suffers.

And all of this is told to an audience that it was never directed to?

Too many holes that the rest of Scripture does not explain.

Edited by Bluefinger

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Hi Jor-el, thanks for responding. I don't hold any eschatological format because I disagree with them all.

If anything, I'm closest to a historicist dispensationalist, meaning I believe that eschatology first came to the Jews when John the Baptist announced that the kingdom of God had come. That eschatology lasted until Jerusalem was destroyed and the kingdom of God was taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles (Matt. 21:42-45, Matt. 22:1-14.)

That sparked the Times of the Gentiles. Our eschatology comes when the Fullness of the Gentiles has been reached (Romans 11:25), by which the return of Jesus will be centered on Jerusalem.

So half of the Apocalypse of St. John recognizes the end of the Times of the Jews (Rev. 1:3, Rev. 5-9) and the other half recognizes the Times of the Gentiles (Rev. 10-18.)

Chapter 19 shows the eschaton in which Jesus literally comes from heaven and establishes His rule over all governments, as hinted at in Rev. 11:15-19 and 14:14-20.

Hi Bluefinger,

Thanks for the response. When you say "kingdom of God was taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles", what exactly do you mean by that?

As far as I know, the kingdom was never taken from the Jews, just as the promises were never taken from them. Rather it is the gentiles who are adopted into the family, grafted into the vine, nothing was taken from the Jews.

Those verses reference specifically, the Clerics, the Teachers of the Law, the Pharisees, not the Jews collectively. If it did it would not make any sense, the church was Jewish before it ever became gentile.

As a matter of fact when we consider The Book of Revelation, the book is not concerned with the Church, it stops referencing the church after chapter 7, it is uniquely concerned with Isreal.

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Hi Bluefinger,

Thanks for the response. When you say "kingdom of God was taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles", what exactly do you mean by that?

As far as I know, the kingdom was never taken from the Jews, just as the promises were never taken from them. Rather it is the gentiles who are adopted into the family, grafted into the vine, nothing was taken from the Jews.

For your first question, consider this parable:

""Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his fruit. And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. Finally he sent his son to them, saying, "They will respect my son." But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, "This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance." And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" They said to him, "He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons." Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes"? Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him." (Matthew 21:33-44 ESV)

The kingdom of God, as the Pharisees anticipated was the promised land and specifically Jerusalem. With the land that God gave Israel, the Jews were supposed to produce fruits of righteousness, good deeds of mercy, justice, and compassion.

But instead, they took the land for themselves and killed anyone that God sent to require righteousness from them. These were the prophets. Then, God sent His own Son to deliver righteousness to God, but they threw Him out of the city and killed Him. So the Day of the Lord (Isaiah 2) came upon the Jews and Jerusalem, even all of Judea. The Jewish Nation was destroyed by the Romans and God gave Jerusalem and all of Judea to the Gentiles, where fruits of righteousness were produces. The kingdom of God, the manifestation of all His promises for righteousness, was given to the Gentiles while the Jewish Nation faced the curses of the Law (Deut. 28:15-68.)

The kingdom of God is here and has been since Jesus came. The Gentiles have been includes in the Abrahamic promises because the kingdom of God was given to them.

One more thing: The elect (144,000 sealed) were chosen by God to follow Jesus, even to the death. By them, God preserves the promises to Jacob, but not the entire Jewish population.

Those verses reference specifically, the Clerics, the Teachers of the Law, the Pharisees, not the Jews collectively. If it did it would not make any sense, the church was Jewish before it ever became gentile.

The Jews followed the Pharisees, clerics, and teachers of the Law. Those that didn't were chosen by God to always follow Jesus, never to turn bak to Judaism.

As a matter of fact when we consider The Book of Revelation, the book is not concerned with the Church, it stops referencing the church after chapter 7, it is uniquely concerned with Isreal.

Because the Church only consisted of those that first heard Jesus and the following disciples. It had not become a broad term because the kingdom had not yet passed to the Gentiles (Jerusalem wasn't destroyed yet.)

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If Revelation was written in a code to mystify the Jews and Romans, why didn't it mystify the early Christians too?

Edited by Crikey

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If Revelation was written in a code to mystify the Jews and Romans, why didn't it mystify the early Christians too?

It wasn't meant to mystify them. It was intended for them, for encouragement and correction.

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I disagree. When Martin Luther stood up against Rome, it wasn't because he wanted a different church. Its because Rome's doctrines were ruining the grace of God. These people were also those that killed other Christians in crusades and yielded during the inquisition. The Roman Church told people that their number was up if they sinned again after Baptism and that the only way to buy time out of purgatory was to purchase indulgences. Yet the very socio-economic status they bore that promoted so much sin was supported by the Roman Church, whom was made wealthy by French, German, English, and Spanish kings.

That's not an issue, Roman Church did behave like a ruthless system who's main goal was to pervert the truth about God. But it is wrong to conclude that, therefore, EVERY member of Roman Church (who obeyed Canon law and therefore bore the Mark) is to drink the wrath of God. And selling indulgences is not something you can generalize to be same as Rev 13:17.

One problem: The first beast is evidently the fourth beast of Daniel 7. Rev. 13:1 shows that. That beast was the Roman Empire. Thus, the first beast of Rev. 13 is the Roman Empire. And the second beast works in the presence of the first.

Therefore it cannot be Islamic nations.

I never said anything about islamic nations being Beast. I'm just reffering to the Islamic prophecies that state:

A being who will pretend to be Jesus Christ will descend from heaven, and will unite whole world under one religion. And that being will, in accordance with Kur'an, state that he is not Son of God, but still he will demand humans to worship. And he will make obedient humans persecute those who don't accept that "truth".That is true Antichrist, and not Nero. Remeber that Scriptures state that Antichrist will have power to deceive whole mankind, a feat that was not available to Nero, and which is actually possible only in todays modern world. Nero never united whole world under his power, but that will be allowed to Antichrist. So the time of Great Tribulation is still ahead of us.

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You are spreading confusion. Nothing you say to people who have studied the bible makes any sense. It is my hope that you will re-read the bible slowly and think about what you are saying.

While I don't agree with everything presented, I find hid views interesting and (for the most part) sound. What you have to realise is that there are many ways of looking at the End Times, not just your view. Things such as your next statement:
The triblulation hasn't even started yet like you have stated.

Are speculative. Some interpretations suggest that it has started. Some say that it started near 2000 years ago.

The two wittnesses are just that TWO WITTNESSES. (people)

Perhaps. I'm inclined to agree but I don't begrudge blue's interpretation. It has merit.

The 144,000 ARE Jews as stated in Rev. 7.

Through Jesus, Gentiles may be considered to be a "Spiritual Israel", therefore making this passage related to them. Perhaps the passage refers to a more general view of God's people.

The mark of the Beast is most likely a micro chip considering you can't buy or sell without it. (youtube "IBM RFID COMMERCIAL")

Ah, a nice modern interpolation. I can't agree
You have stated so much that is wrong I don't want to stay here all day and correct you on everything but i think you get my point. Please study more and ask GOD for understanding. After all you don't want to be judged for incorrect teaching.

If anyone is interested they can Youtube Perry stone, or go to hallindsey.com, or jvim.com. These people are very informative! they cross todays world events with Bible prophecy

1- correct Bible teaching is important. But be careful of being too dogmatic on passages that aren't crystal clear (as is the case with Revelation).

2- You know that every generation since Christ has had people claiming that this is it - the end is NOW! They've also fitted current events of the day into Bible prophecy.

My thoughts on the issue :tu:

~ Regards,

Edited by Paranoid Android
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For your first question, consider this parable:

""Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his fruit. And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. Finally he sent his son to them, saying, "They will respect my son." But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, "This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance." And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" They said to him, "He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons." Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes"? Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him." (Matthew 21:33-44 ESV)

The kingdom of God, as the Pharisees anticipated was the promised land and specifically Jerusalem. With the land that God gave Israel, the Jews were supposed to produce fruits of righteousness, good deeds of mercy, justice, and compassion.

But instead, they took the land for themselves and killed anyone that God sent to require righteousness from them. These were the prophets. Then, God sent His own Son to deliver righteousness to God, but they threw Him out of the city and killed Him. So the Day of the Lord (Isaiah 2) came upon the Jews and Jerusalem, even all of Judea. The Jewish Nation was destroyed by the Romans and God gave Jerusalem and all of Judea to the Gentiles, where fruits of righteousness were produces. The kingdom of God, the manifestation of all His promises for righteousness, was given to the Gentiles while the Jewish Nation faced the curses of the Law (Deut. 28:15-68.)

Hi Bluefinger,

I would like to add something to the verses you quoted above which I think is very important to understand exactly what Jesus was saying.

45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them. 46 And although they were seeking to arrest him, they feared the crowds, because they held him to be a prophet.

The last verses of the text I think are quite clear in meaning. The parable is not about the Jewish people, it is specifically about the priests and the Pharisees. It says so right there.

So if the Kingdom of God is to be taken, it is not from the people of Israel, the Jews, it a reference that specifically targets a select group, the spiritual leaders of the nation of Israel. If this is true, and it is because the texts states it, then the Kingdom of God cannot be the nation under any circumstances.

Therefore what is the kingdom of God being referenced, if isn't the actual physical nation?

20 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within (Or among) you.”

This verse clearly reflects the idea that the Kingdom of God was not considered to be the Nation of Israel. Neither the Pharisees or even Jesus accepted that view or the verse above would not exist.

Clearly the Pharisees believed that they were not under the Kingdom or in the Kingdom of God. Israel had lost its status as a Kingdom centuries before Jesus and lost the power of life and death when Rome decreed an end to its independent status as an ally, and it became a part of the Roman Empire in 5 C.E.

So much so that when this happened the Jews of the time were seen to be crying in the street and screaming to heaven "Woe unto us for the sceptre has departed from Judah and the Messiah has not come"

Rabbi Rachmon in the Jerusalem Talmud wrote that:

When the members of the Sanhedrin found themselves deprived of their right over life and death, a general consternation took possession of them: they covered their heads with ashes, and their bodies with sackcloth, exclaiming:
'Woe unto us for the sceptre has departed from Judah and the Messiah has not come
'. (
Jerusalem Talmud,
Sanhedrin
, 24)

Jesus himself was quite clear by what he meant by "Kingdom of God".

John 18:36

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

So the Kingdom of God is not a literal Kingdom. The Kingdom of Heaven though, that will be a literal kingdom. Let me put this way, we preach the Kingdom of God, and we will live in the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of God is actually another term for the "Gospel", the "Good News". Something that the Priests and Pharisees twisted and perverted, hence the parable.

The kingdom of God is here and has been since Jesus came. The Gentiles have been includes in the Abrahamic promises because the kingdom of God was given to them.

I cannot accept that obviously, because the Kingdom of God is the Gospel and that implies that it is available to all people, Jews and Gentiles and has always been so.

One more thing: The elect (144,000 sealed) were chosen by God to follow Jesus, even to the death. By them, God preserves the promises to Jacob, but not the entire Jewish population.

Agreed, but then again, where exactly is the Church when this happens? The text does not mention the church and if we are the ones who inherited the Abrahamic promises as implied earlier, then we should be the ones being sealed. Why are the promises being given back to a select group of Jews?

The only possible reason for this is that there is no more church, the church is gone.

It is by the preaching of the gospel by the 144000 that the multitudes turn to Jesus (Rev 7:9), when exactly did this ever happen? (Rev. 7 the whole chapter) If it hasn't happened yet then it is a future event yet to come.

The Jews followed the Pharisees, clerics, and teachers of the Law. Those that didn't were chosen by God to always follow Jesus, never to turn bak to Judaism.

I don't accept that, those Jews never called themselves anything but Jews. Even Paul says that of himself. As a faithful Jew, he was called to be the apostle to the Gentiles. Because people have not understood the context of what Paul was saying and doing among the Gentiles, they have confused or distorted his identity.

Acts 13:46-47

It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first. Since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold we are turning to the Gentiles, because this is what the Lord has commanded us: ‘I have placed you as a light for the Gentiles that you should bring salvation to the end of the earth.’

Paul NEVER called himself anything but a Jew.

Because the Church only consisted of those that first heard Jesus and the following disciples. It had not become a broad term because the kingdom had not yet passed to the Gentiles (Jerusalem wasn't destroyed yet.)

Well I would disagree for the obvious reasons explained above. I would say there are a number of assumptions you are making that do not fit the biblical data we have available.

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Hi Bluefinger,

I would like to add something to the verses you quoted above which I think is very important to understand exactly what Jesus was saying.

45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them. 46 And although they were seeking to arrest him, they feared the crowds, because they held him to be a prophet.

The last verses of the text I think are quite clear in meaning. The parable is not about the Jewish people, it is specifically about the priests and the Pharisees. It says so right there.

I understand what you are saying. The problem is that you haven't stated what the kingdom of God is. Jesus said that it was going to be taken from them and given to a people producing fruit. What was taken from them?

"What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!" (Romans 11:7, 11, 12 ESV)

The kingdom of God was theirs for the taking. They had obeyed the Law so that they would remain in God's covenant and enjoy His promises when they came. So what happened? They rejected it. And those that followed the Pharisees and teachers of the Law rejected the kingdom of God. The elect among them (the Jews) obtained it. Jesus made it obvious who the elect were:

"I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word." (John 17:6 ESV)

The elect were the disciples and those among the Jews that believed them. This is consistent with everything I've been saying on this thread.

So if the Kingdom of God is to be taken, it is not from the people of Israel, the Jews, it a reference that specifically targets a select group, the spiritual leaders of the nation of Israel. If this is true, and it is because the texts states it, then the Kingdom of God cannot be the nation under any circumstances.

The kingdom of God was the promises to Abraham. If you remember, they included, "Your seed shall be a great nation" and "All tribes of the earth will be blessed through you." The kingdom of God came to Abraham's seed when the tribes of Israel received the Law and conquered the Promised Land. That was taken from them when Babylon conquered Judah and exiled the Jews to Babylon. It was never given back to them, even with the rebuilding of the temple. They were still in Gentile control. In the second century BC, the Jews revolted against the Greeks. That is what Jesus meant that the violent have been taking the kingdom of heaven by force. The kingdom came on God's time, but the Jews sought to take it by force from those that God appointed over them. The kingdom, then, was the promised kingdom.

Therefore what is the kingdom of God being referenced, if isn't the actual physical nation?

20 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within (Or among) you.”

This verse clearly reflects the idea that the Kingdom of God was not considered to be the Nation of Israel. Neither the Pharisees or even Jesus accepted that view or the verse above would not exist.

The correct rendering of within in Greek is 'in your midst.' Jesus was talking about Himself. He was the kingdom of God. The prophets spoke of one that would announce the coming of the Messiah, the one would establish God's kingdom of righteousness. So, when the Jews saw John the Baptist and believed him to be a prophet, they were certain that the Messiah was to be announced. If you recall, Samuel the prophet first administered his office of prophet by anointing Israel's first and second kings. So, when Jesus came, the kingdom was at hand. When He resurrected, He received authority over heaven and earth (Matt. 28:18.) The kingdom of God had come.

It was a literal kingdom. Not just a spiritual one lived out by the Church. I will explain more of that in a bit.

Clearly the Pharisees believed that they were not under the Kingdom or in the Kingdom of God. Israel had lost its status as a Kingdom centuries before Jesus and lost the power of life and death when Rome decreed an end to its independent status as an ally, and it became a part of the Roman Empire in 5 C.E.

Agreed! So, the Pharisees believed that independence would come to the Jews when the Messiah came. The kingdom was literally the Covenant and Promises made to Abraham. And this is what the Pharisees and teachers of the Law wanted for themselves. The Pharisees, portrayed in Luke 16's parable of the rich man and Lazarus, died (symbolic for Jerusalem's destruction) and found Lazarus (the unwanted; including the Gentiles) were in Abraham's bosom (the kingdom of God; the Promises of God.) Paul defends that idea by saying most of Israel did not obtain the promises but that it was given to the Gentiles.

So much so that when this happened the Jews of the time were seen to be crying in the street and screaming to heaven "Woe unto us for the sceptre has departed from Judah and the Messiah has not come"

Rabbi Rachmon in the Jerusalem Talmud wrote that:

When the members of the Sanhedrin found themselves deprived of their right over life and death, a general consternation took possession of them: they covered their heads with ashes, and their bodies with sackcloth, exclaiming:
'Woe unto us for the sceptre has departed from Judah and the Messiah has not come
'. (
Jerusalem Talmud,
Sanhedrin
, 24)

Jesus himself was quite clear by what he meant by "Kingdom of God".

John 18:36

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

John speaks from a theological perspective. He was indeed right that His kingdom was not of this world, for Jesus spent much time calling the generation He was living in a brook of vipers; a wicked generation. The kingdom of God was not for them, but for those of faith that would produce works of righteousness; for the kingdom of God is the kingdom of righteousness. Paul went into great detail to show that the Jews didn't obtain the promises because they were under the curse of the Law (Deut. 28:15-68 ), which Jesus took upon Himself in the place of those that believed on Him (Gal. 3:13.) Those who followed Jesus would produce fruits of righteousness. Paul explained that, as long as one is under the Law, he cannot please God; for the law was given to rule over the unrighteous, not the righteous.

So the Kingdom of God is not a literal Kingdom. The Kingdom of Heaven though, that will be a literal kingdom. Let me put this way, we preach the Kingdom of God, and we will live in the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of God is actually another term for the "Gospel", the "Good News". Something that the Priests and Pharisees twisted and perverted, hence the parable.

So, you're saying that the kingdom of God, which was mentioned in Matthew 21 is not the same kingdom of heaven that was mentioned in Matthew 21? They are the same thing.

Let me ask you a question. Does Jesus currently rule? If so, then the kingdom has come and all of creation belongs to Him.

I cannot accept that obviously, because the Kingdom of God is the Gospel and that implies that it is available to all people, Jews and Gentiles and has always been so.

While I agree that the kingdom of God is the Gospel, I do not agree that the Gospel is solely a transformation of the inner man. The kingdom denotes more than one person. The apostles received the kingdom. Their disciples received the kingdom. Eventually, all nations, except for the Jewish Nation (except for the remnant that was elected; the apostles and first disciples) received the kingdom.

And I will defend this if you bear with me:

"So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean! Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? (Romans 11:11-15 ESV)

Salvation was that the Gentiles were included into the Covenant that God made with Abraham, the Covenant of Promise. Beforehand, the Gentiles were excluded. Even Jesus said, "Salvation is of the Jews." If you continue with the neoplatonic attribution to Christian theology only, you'll miss the great wealth of understanding that the Bible can provide about the depths of the Gospel. We are not waiting on God's kingdom to come. It HAS come. Otherwise, Christ is not ruling, contrary to what is said in Matthew 28:18.

Agreed, but then again, where exactly is the Church when this happens? The text does not mention the church and if we are the ones who inherited the Abrahamic promises as implied earlier, then we should be the ones being sealed. Why are the promises being given back to a select group of Jews?

You're having trouble with this because you are not considering the history of the Gospel, especially as laid out in the New Testament. As shown in John 17:6, God had chosen an elect group from the Jews, a remnant (Rom. 11:1-5) that was supposed to always follow Jesus. This group was not going to be misled when false prophets came announcing to the Jews between 66 and 70 CE that they should go to Jerusalem to be delivered. The elect didn't fall for it, and thus suffered shame and death at the hand of other Jews. The rest of the Jews in Judea fled to Jerusalem, where they were destroyed by the Romans. (Matthew 24:15-28 ) If you read Flavius Josephus' account of Jerusalem's destruction, it was very devastating. Approximately 1.1 million Jews died in Jerusalem, not counting the thousands killed in other provinces solely for being Jews.

So the 144,000 were the apostles and their disciples that were chosen to not follow their brethren to Jerusalem. They were sealed when they fled Jerusalem. Because they fled Jerusalem, they brought the Gospel to the Gentiles. Then the earth was harmed by six trumpets, meaning Jerusalem was destroyed.

The only possible reason for this is that there is no more church, the church is gone.

It is by the preaching of the gospel by the 144000 that the multitudes turn to Jesus (Rev 7:9), when exactly did this ever happen? (Rev. 7 the whole chapter) If it hasn't happened yet then it is a future event yet to come.

It is not future. It happened already. The Jews that were sealed by God to always follow Jesus, the first disciples, brought the Gospel to the Gentiles. That explains why there is an uncountable amount of Gentiles dressed in white after the 144,000 are sealed. Revelation 12 shows the story of Israel in exile and under Gentile control, awaiting the kingdom of God. The kingdom comes in the form of a manchild who was caught up to God and his throne. Then the chosen remnant fled Judea. There, they suffered persecution at the hands of both Jews and Romans. Because they were faithful, they were outside of the Law and could not be accused by Satan. So the serpent tried to get the elect to join the Jews in Jerusalem to fight the Romans but the Jews were destroyed. Then Satan went out to make war on her offspring; those who obey the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus; the Gentiles. It all lines up. Its not future. It has already happened. Thing kingdom is here and now, and Jesus rules now.

I don't accept that, those Jews never called themselves anything but Jews. Even Paul says that of himself. As a faithful Jew, he was called to be the apostle to the Gentiles. Because people have not understood the context of what Paul was saying and doing among the Gentiles, they have confused or distorted his identity.

Acts 13:46-47

It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first. Since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold we are turning to the Gentiles, because this is what the Lord has commanded us: ‘I have placed you as a light for the Gentiles that you should bring salvation to the end of the earth.’

Paul NEVER called himself anything but a Jew.

And he was correct! But Jew was not just a theological position back then. It was an ethnic position. In the message addressed to the church of Philadelphia, Jesus criticizes 'those who say they are Jews, but are not,' saying that they would come and bow in service to the church in Philadelphia. Evidently, Jesus was talking about the true Jews, the elect remnant.

Well I would disagree for the obvious reasons explained above. I would say there are a number of assumptions you are making that do not fit the biblical data we have available.

I disagree. Everything I am saying is coming from Scripture.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory." (Ephesians 1:3-12 ESV)

I think the bolded part proves my point. Paul obviously understood that God had predestined him, the apostles, and those who believed their message to believe so that the Gospel would successfully withstand all of Satan's attacks and deceptions and reach the Gentiles. That Gospel, when it was accepted in those nations, conquered those nations.

Like when kings would set their statue in a foreign land to show that they now had dominion over that land, so did Christ set His Church in all nations, taking over those nations by His great mercy and grace. We should be very thankful to God for the elect.

Edited by Bluefinger

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So basically, the Promised Land and the promises were taken from the Jews (except the elect) and given to the Gentiles. Jerusalem was given to the Gentiles. The blessings of the Law (Deut. 28:1-14) were given to the Gentiles. Riches were given to the Gentiles. Inclusion into the Covenant of Abraham was given to the Gentiles.

All the while, all of these things were taken from the Jews, to whom they were first promised. The Jews, instead, suffered the curse of the Law (Deut. 28:15-68 ) because they are condemned by the Law for their unrighteousness. They rejected the kingdom of righteousness when they rejected Jesus.

That is what Matt. 21:42 was talking about. The kingdom of God wasn't just the good news that we are now in God's grace. It was a realized factual kingdom that took over the earth and overflows our cups with blessings. The elect disciples understood this and preached with an understanding that the Promises of God were at hand. We Gentiles were blessed beyond imagination, while the Jews were persecuted, shamed, and destroyed for two thousand years. Even after 6 million Jews were systematically executed by the Nazis, the Jews are still surrounded by many nations that hate them and want them dead. Thank God they are only temporarily blinded and that all of Israel will be saved. (Romans 11:25-26)

Edited by Bluefinger

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Hello Mr. Bluefinger. I will play nice.

I have 3 questions. (1) how does "Daniels 70 weeks" play into endtimes prophecy considering that the 70th week is suposed to be the Tribulation and what the book of Revelation is mostly about?

(2) How does the statue in Nebuchadnezars dream fit into endtimes prophecy? according to the dreams interpretation we are still waiting for the final world empire to appear, which will appear during the Tribulation.

(3) have you ever studied the minor Prophets?

Edited by Ogbin

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It [Revelation] wasn't meant to mystify them [the early Christians]. It was intended for them, for encouragement and correction.

But only the first bit of Revelation gives messages in plain language to the churches, the rest is gobbledegook that can't be understood even by modern-day christians, let alone those of 2000 years ago.

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But only the first bit of Revelation gives messages in plain language to the churches, the rest is gobbledegook that can't be understood even by modern-day christians, let alone those of 2000 years ago.

I disagree. The signs, I believe were to be confirmations to the actions Jesus said He would take in the messages to the seven churches.

Rev. 12:17's offspring accomplish the same thing that Philadelphia's church does: They keep the Lord's commands and don't deny His name.

Laodicea is told to keep watch, lest the shame of their nakedness be exposed. In the sixth plague of Rev. 16, the sequence is interrupted to say, "("Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!") (Revelation 16:15 ESV)

These occurrences are repeated throughout the book so as to reemphasize the messages to the seven churches.

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Hello Mr. Bluefinger. I will play nice.

I have 3 questions. (1) how does "Daniels 70 weeks" play into endtimes prophecy considering that the 70th week is suposed to be the Tribulation and what the book of Revelation is mostly about?

Its not. Daniel 9:24 shows that the 70 weeks of years were decreed upon the Jews and Jerusalem, which were fulfilled when Jerusalem was destroyed, as shown in verses 26 and 27. The 70 week prophecy was concerning the end o the Times of the Jews, which occurred in 70 CE.

(2) How does the statue in Nebuchadnezars dream fit into endtimes prophecy? according to the dreams interpretation we are still waiting for the final world empire to appear, which will appear during the Tribulation.

The prophecy said that, in the days of the ten kings, the kingdom of God would come and dethrone those nations. To the Jews, this meant that Israel would conquer the world with their Messiah. To the Messiah this meant spreading the Gospel.

In the Near East, an image being erected in a foreign land meant that the king whose image it beared had dominion over the land and its people. So, not worshiping the image of the king meant that you were a revolutionary and a traitor.

So, the rock carved with no hands, being the kingdom of God, smashing the image and growing to be a great mountain was basically saying that the kingdoms of the world would become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ, as shown in Rev. 11:15.

Daniel was only ever given an account for His people. So all he saw was what the Jews would go through. Concerning the Times of the Gentiles, that was sealed from Daniel's understanding. All he saw were things concernin the Jews and Jerusalem. All he was told was that Europe would attempt to stay united but would fail.

(3) have you ever studied the minor Prophets?

Yes.

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But only the first bit of Revelation gives messages in plain language to the churches, the rest is gobbledegook that can't be understood even by modern-day christians, let alone those of 2000 years ago.

What a sensible observation. The first 3 chapters of Revelations do hold the key to the book and much more. The key verse is Chapter 1 verse 20

' Here is the secret meaning of the 7 stars which you saw in my right hand, and of the 7 lamps of gold; the 7 stars are the angels of the 7 churches, and 7 lamps are the 7 churches'

We are being told that there is a 'secret meaning' in these 7 churches, and there is. Because we are being told about it we must be intended to find out what it is or it would not have been mentioned. And it has now been found. So what is this secret meaning?

It is actually quite simple once you realise what it is all about and Jesus and his companion and confidant Mary of Magdala clearly did. It is the geographical location of the 7 churches that Jesus chose to focus on at the beginning of the Book of Revelations. These are arranged in two alignments, the first two Ephesus and Smyrna are on an alignment from the Great Pyramid in Egypt which then goes to an important location far to north. The second alignment of the last five churches comes down through these locations ending at Laodicea which is exactly on the 110 degree Great Circle bearing line and the text says ' I know all your ways; you are neither hot nor cold.' ( Chapter 3 verse 15-16)

But why would Mary of Magdala know about this or be involved ? Because this Great Circle alignment of 110 degrees then leaves present day Turkey, where the churches of Revelation are located, and crosses the Mediterranean to the northern part of the Holy Land and a location on the Sea of Galilee, a very significant location. This location is Mount Arbel with its ancient sacred site Beit Arbel once again exactly on the 110 degree Great Circle bearing line and right next to this famous mount was the town of Magdala, the home of Mary of Magdala or the place she was named after. Mary of Magdala or Mary Magdalene has been called the Apostle to the Apostles, Christ's messenger, but the landscape geometry of the churches of Revelation clearly indicate that she was also part of the message.

The rest of the book of Revelations is clearly pointing to the number 7 which is so important because of the 7 churches and their place in a much larger design of ancient landscape geometry which will soon be revealed and must have been set out thousands of years before the time of Christ but clearly known about by Jesus and Mary of Magdala.

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I disagree. The signs, I believe were to be confirmations to the actions Jesus said He would take in the messages to the seven churches.

Rev. 12:17's offspring accomplish the same thing that Philadelphia's church does: They keep the Lord's commands and don't deny His name.

Laodicea is told to keep watch, lest the shame of their nakedness be exposed. In the sixth plague of Rev. 16, the sequence is interrupted to say, "("Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!") (Revelation 16:15 ESV)

These occurrences are repeated throughout the book so as to reemphasize the messages to the seven churches.

You are talking nonsense, see below for the truth...

But only the first bit of Revelation gives messages in plain language to the churches, the rest is gobbledegook that can't be understood even by modern-day christians, let alone those of 2000 years ago.

What a sensible observation. The first 3 chapters of Revelations do hold the key to the book and much more. The key verse is Chapter 1 verse 20

' Here is the secret meaning of the 7 stars which you saw in my right hand, and of the 7 lamps of gold; the 7 stars are the angels of the 7 churches, and 7 lamps are the 7 churches'

We are being told that there is a 'secret meaning' in these 7 churches, and there is. Because we are being told about it we must be intended to find out what it is or it would not have been mentioned. And it has now been found. So what is this secret meaning?

It is actually quite simple once you realise what it is all about and Jesus and his companion and confidant Mary of Magdala clearly did. It is the geographical location of the 7 churches that Jesus chose to focus on at the beginning of the Book of Revelations. These are arranged in two alignments, the first two Ephesus and Smyrna are on an alignment from the Great Pyramid in Egypt which then goes to an important location far to north. The second alignment of the last five churches comes down through these locations ending at Laodicea which is exactly on the 110 degree Great Circle bearing line and the text says ' I know all your ways; you are neither hot nor cold.' ( Chapter 3 verse 15-16)

But why would Mary of Magdala know about this or be involved ? Because this Great Circle alignment of 110 degrees then leaves present day Turkey, where the churches of Revelation are located, and crosses the Mediterranean to the northern part of the Holy Land and a location on the Sea of Galilee, a very significant location. This location is Mount Arbel with its ancient sacred site Beit Arbel once again exactly on the 110 degree Great Circle bearing line and right next to this famous mount was the town of Magdala, the home of Mary of Magdala or the place she was named after. Mary of Magdala or Mary Magdalene has been called the Apostle to the Apostles, Christ's messenger, but the landscape geometry of the churches of Revelation clearly indicate that she was also part of the message.

The rest of the book of Revelations is clearly pointing to the number 7 which is so important because of the 7 churches and their place in a much larger design of ancient landscape geometry which will soon be revealed and must have been set out thousands of years before the time of Christ but clearly known about by Jesus and Mary of Magdala.

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..Jesus and his companion and confidant Mary of Magdala..

If you're guessing that Jesus had a girlfriend, that's all it is --a guess-- so it means the rest of your post is just guesses too, and your credibility has taken a knock..;)

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If you're guessing that Jesus had a girlfriend, that's all it is --a guess-- so it means the rest of your post is just guesses too, and your credibility has taken a knock.. ;)

No, the relationship between Jesus and Mary of Magdala was that she was his companion and confidant that is well recorded and that she was his messenger. The alignments of the churches of Revelation are a FACT... check it out if you wish.. it is true and should not now be ignored by any sensible person who seeks the truth which is what Christ told us to do...

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I reckon it's all down to the time John the Divine found some really good s*** to smoke!

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hijacked

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hijacked

That's what I was trying to point out with my question! There's just so many interpretations when it comes to Revelations that if you say that what you're reading is the 'right' way to read it, well, it probably ain't cause someone's claiming the same thing with the same data but with different results.

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You are talking nonsense, see below for the truth...

What a sensible observation. The first 3 chapters of Revelations do hold the key to the book and much more. The key verse is Chapter 1 verse 20

' Here is the secret meaning of the 7 stars which you saw in my right hand, and of the 7 lamps of gold; the 7 stars are the angels of the 7 churches, and 7 lamps are the 7 churches'

We are being told that there is a 'secret meaning' in these 7 churches, and there is. Because we are being told about it we must be intended to find out what it is or it would not have been mentioned. And it has now been found. So what is this secret meaning?

It is actually quite simple once you realise what it is all about and Jesus and his companion and confidant Mary of Magdala clearly did. It is the geographical location of the 7 churches that Jesus chose to focus on at the beginning of the Book of Revelations. These are arranged in two alignments, the first two Ephesus and Smyrna are on an alignment from the Great Pyramid in Egypt which then goes to an important location far to north. The second alignment of the last five churches comes down through these locations ending at Laodicea which is exactly on the 110 degree Great Circle bearing line and the text says ' I know all your ways; you are neither hot nor cold.' ( Chapter 3 verse 15-16)

But why would Mary of Magdala know about this or be involved ? Because this Great Circle alignment of 110 degrees then leaves present day Turkey, where the churches of Revelation are located, and crosses the Mediterranean to the northern part of the Holy Land and a location on the Sea of Galilee, a very significant location. This location is Mount Arbel with its ancient sacred site Beit Arbel once again exactly on the 110 degree Great Circle bearing line and right next to this famous mount was the town of Magdala, the home of Mary of Magdala or the place she was named after. Mary of Magdala or Mary Magdalene has been called the Apostle to the Apostles, Christ's messenger, but the landscape geometry of the churches of Revelation clearly indicate that she was also part of the message.

The rest of the book of Revelations is clearly pointing to the number 7 which is so important because of the 7 churches and their place in a much larger design of ancient landscape geometry which will soon be revealed and must have been set out thousands of years before the time of Christ but clearly known about by Jesus and Mary of Magdala.

Please stop hijacking this thread to espouse your own dogma.

Don't dismiss my points to make your own. Actually address them rather than saying it is all nonsense.

If you want to talk about a Mary Magdalan ordeal, by all means, create your own thread. I won't distract you.

Just please don't hikack this thread.

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That's what I was trying to point out with my question! There's just so many interpretations when it comes to Revelations that if you say that what you're reading is the 'right' way to read it, well, it probably ain't cause someone's claiming the same thing with the same data but with different results.

If it discourages you to discuss it, then don't discuss it. I am not discouraged though. Jor-el and Crickey are actually addressing my points and responding with questions that actually evaluate the merit of each of my interpretations.

That is how truth is uncovered: By systematically and critically analyzing the entire text, including its exegesis.

That way, you can accurately challenge previously accepted determinations, such as the dating of the book of Revelation.

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