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Bluefinger

The Apocalypse Explained

123 posts in this topic

If it discourages you to discuss it, then don't discuss it. I am not discouraged though. Jor-el and Crickey are actually addressing my points and responding with questions that actually evaluate the merit of each of my interpretations.

That is how truth is uncovered: By systematically and critically analyzing the entire text, including its exegesis.

That way, you can accurately challenge previously accepted determinations, such as the dating of the book of Revelation.

Discouraged? Nah, just my interpretation of the book wouldn't jive all that well, since I find the vast majority of the Bible to just be fairly tales teaching good moral lessons.

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No, the relationship between Jesus and Mary of Magdala was that she was his companion and confidant that is well recorded and that she was his messenger. The alignments of the churches of Revelation are a FACT... check it out if you wish.. it is true and should not now be ignored by any sensible person who seeks the truth which is what Christ told us to do...

Regarding the Jesus/MaryM thing, you'd better start backing up what you say with bible quotes or we'll think you're making it up..;)

As for Revelation, Jesus ALREADY told us what to do-

"Love God, love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor"- (Mark 12:30, John 13:34, Matt 25: 37-40)

So what does Revelation need to tell us on top of that?

Which saves, Jesus or Revelation?

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There's just so many interpretations when it comes to Revelations that if you say that what you're reading is the 'right' way to read it, well, it probably ain't cause someone's claiming the same thing with the same data but with different results.

Yes, everybody's got their own interpretation and theories about Rev, so one persons ideas are no better or worse than anybody elses..:)

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That's what I was trying to point out with my question! There's just so many interpretations when it comes to Revelations that if you say that what you're reading is the 'right' way to read it, well, it probably ain't cause someone's claiming the same thing with the same data but with different results.

That is the beauty of geometry and a little maths. If something works out geometrically that is a fact. You might say it is a coincidence but that depends on how many coincidences occur before you say -'Hey, this has got to be a design'. Chapter 1 verse 20 tells us that there is a 'secret meaning' in the 7 churches chosen by Jesus which are called lamps and lamps show the way. The book of Revelations tells us that the messages in it come from Christ and as the 'secret meaning' is clearly the alignment of these churches on the landscape, an alignment which then goes to Magdala on the Sea of Galilee, it is quite reasonable to say that Jesus knew about the alignments. From the bible records Jesus often spoke in parables, metaphor and riddles so we have to try to establish the meaning he intended and the geometry is just another puzzle to be solved in the future. It has now been solved by the work of many researchers who have looked at the layout and geometry of ancient sacred sites which lead us to the churches of Revelation and other locations. Surely Christ would not want us to ignore it just because we do not yet understand how this geometry was set out long ago before the time of Jesus?

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Hello UM,

So I've done a great deal of studying the book of Revelation for about 20 years now

Is "study" of a book of fiction not an contradiction in terms?

What does matter what it says in these phantasy stories either way. Just enjoy them for what they are... entertainment.

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Discouraged? Nah, just my interpretation of the book wouldn't jive all that well, since I find the vast majority of the Bible to just be fairly tales teaching good moral lessons.

The New Testament stories, arguably. The Old Testament describers a pretty brutal and nasty god, quite similar to the mohammetan one.

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Yes, everybody's got their own interpretation and theories about Rev, so one persons ideas are no better or worse than anybody elses.. :)

That is simply not true. All interpretations are not equal particularly when some are backed up by facts. The 'secret meaning' in Chapter1 verse20 of Revelations, which seems to be the key to Revelations, concerns the geometric alignments in the 7 churches named by Jesus. These churches we are told are lamps and lamps show the way. Christ must have known this when these locations were selected.

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Regarding the Jesus/MaryM thing, you'd better start backing up what you say with bible quotes or we'll think you're making it up.. ;)

As for Revelation, Jesus ALREADY told us what to do-

"Love God, love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor"- (Mark 12:30, John 13:34, Matt 25: 37-40)

So what does Revelation need to tell us on top of that?

Which saves, Jesus or Revelation?

The Gnostic gospels and the bible show that Jesus had a special relationship with Mary of Magdala as companion, confidant and messenger. I would not presume to judge whether that was also a relationship as 'girlfriend' or 'wife' although there is I understand some evidence now being assessed which may shed more light on the

matter.

Jesus when talking to his disciples on his special mountain by the Sea of Galilee, to which the disciples were directed by Mary of Magdala and was probably Mount Arbel next to the town of Magdala, mentions the 'End of Time' and this location is on the Great Circle bearing which identifies 5 of the 7 churches Christ chose to mention at the start of the book of Revelations. So the concept of an 'End of Time' is implied by the teachings of Jesus and this is geometrically linked to the book of Revelations ( Matthew 28 )

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hijacked

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where's jor-el and crikey?

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where's jor-el and crikey?

]

They may be checking out the 7 churches of Revelation that Jesus told us to investigate to find the 'secret meaning'. 'Seek and ye shall find.....'

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]

They may be checking out the 7 churches of Revelation that Jesus told us to investigate to find the 'secret meaning'. 'Seek and ye shall find.....'

I doubt it. Jesus is not the author of confusion to those that love God.

And it contradicts the Gospel.

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where's jor-el and crikey?

No offence but I got bored..:)

I don't particularly care what Rev means, it's not important to me because it serves no purpose.

As I said before, which saves, Jesus or Revelation?

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No offence but I got bored..:)

I don't particularly care what Rev means, it's not important to me because it serves no purpose.

As I said before, which saves, Jesus or Revelation?

Evidently Jesus. Its been the same message for about 2,000 years.

Its been good. Thanks for the discussion.

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I doubt it. Jesus is not the author of confusion to those that love God.

And it contradicts the Gospel.

Jesus spoke, according to the bible, in parables, metaphor and riddles with a fair bit of numerology too. His messages were often hidden and this is clearly the case with the 7 churches of Revelation which is an invitation to find out what the 'secret meaning' is.

Far from contradicting the Gospels, the Gospels confirm that the importance of the 7 churches is their geometric layout in a much larger design of ancient landscape geometry as you may probably soon realise.

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I did read your responses actually, and no offense, but I find them to have virtually no merit.

Christ's parables are not about the prophecies of Revelation, nor are they in any way expressed in the same way. Christ's parables are designed as teaching mechanisms meant to connect with Christ's already expressed literal explanation in order to help generalize the overall concept, which are especially helpful for the more abstract thinkers. I should know, I'm studying for a career in teaching. It's a basic teaching tool.

I dunno Aquila. It feels like you're not even trying; like its something you just don't want to mess with. And that's fine. But please don't respond then. That way the discussion can continue, rather than stop.

Jesus said that He only explained things plainly to His disciples, and that the parables were meant to keep the blind unaware of what was coming. So it is with Revelation. Contrary to your opinion, it is not chickenscratch. It is well designed actually.

My intentions are not to stop your discussion, and trust me, I have done much more than just try. I have gotten many much more hateful responses from many so called Christians when I explain to them about my views concerning the history and authenticity of the bible.

I started out like most all other Christians out there with the belief in the inerrancy of the bible concept. However, after researching the overall creation of the modern day bible and reading so many of the other radical and/or contradicting views of it, as well as the lost books of both the old AND new testaments, I personally came to the conclusion that the most important and authentic books of the bible are simply the four gospels. So as you can see, many have gotten angry and yelled "blasphemey!" Despite my explainations of how following only Jesus Christ not only nullifies nearly all contradictions, brings nearly all Christians together as opposed to seperate, brings you into a closer relationship to him and him alone, and not only that but it is actually commanded by him for us to do so. So please, telling me I'm simply not trying hard enough to understand the very material I have personally researched for years, simply because I came to a different conclusion is a bit of an insult to me. Especially since My conclusion has most likely brought me much more grief than yours has.

Now, concerning the quote: "Jesus said that He only explained things plainly to His disciples, and that the parables were meant to keep the blind unaware of what was coming." I would like for you to post exactly which scriptures he said this in. I was personally under the impression that his message was direct the truth, meant to be expressed to all the people of the world, and that his parables were designed to further people's understanding as opposed to with hold information for the 'elect.'

You start out with explaining a concept in a simplistic literal explanation. Then after and/or through out the explanation you introduce a few or so cryptic thought provoking mechanisms to encourage the students to ask questions and therefore nurish their overall engagement in the subject. Then you give a clever thought out metaphor or parable to connect and generalize the overall concept. Then finally end it with questions.

John's book of Revelation is practically chicken scratch compared to Christ's parables. Revelation is in no way told as a narrative, nor is it a clever teaching method. It's more like one of the one time posters on here that posts a thread about some off the wall lunacy with absolutely no supportive evidence, referances, and least of all proof.

Okay. I see where you're coming from. I just think you are approaching apocalyptic literature from the wrong perspective. Indeed, it isn't a narrative, but it has narratives in it (Rev. 12-14, for example.) It isn't an instructional piece either, but it has instruction in it (like the messages to the seven churches in Rev. 2-3.) Its not lunacy either. I just don't think you're explored it very well.

Apocalyptic writing is its own genre of literature. In Revelation, the history is established in chapter 1. In chapters 2-3, the intended audiences are instructed how to stay faithful and what the results of their choices would be. Chapters 4-9 describe the times of the Jews, showing that it would come to an end with Jerusalem's destruction, similar to Jesus' parables (though less clear, yes.) Chapter 10 interrupts the sequence to explain a new prophecy about the times of the Gentiles (10:11.) Chapter 11 shortly explains what would happen during that time and how it would all end, culminating with the return of Jesus at Jerusalem upon the blasting of the seventh trumpet. Chapters 12-14 given an account of the persecution of the saints and their deliverance from the Babylonian Exile to the return of Jesus. So the theme is faithfulness in persecution, which would have been relevant to Smyrna, Pergamos, and Philadelphia. Chapter 15 introduces the God's wrath against those that made war on the saints and chapter 16 describes how that wrath would play out upon the 'beast' and those that took the mark of its name. Chapter 17 describes the destruction of the Roman Church and chapter 18 indulges in hyperboly to demonstrate the dangers of loving money and power; a message relevant to Laodicea and Thyatira. Finally, chapter 19 details the return of Jesus and chapter 20 describes the setting up of his kingdom. Chapters 21-22 describe all things being made new and the fulfillment of all of God's promises.

These are all these that Jesus spoke about.

In your responses, you said nothing about the audience (seven churches), the historical background laid out in chapter 1, or the themes mentioned in the book.

Jesus' Gospels flow in the same manner as Revelation, such as Mattew 22:1-14's parable of the wedding feast, which described the destruction of Jerusalem for rejecting the Gospel and killing the saaints; and the kingdom spreading to the Gentiles, as shown in Rev. 7, Rev. 10:11, Rev. 11, and Rev. 12:17. It even describes someone who crept into the kingdom that had no business being there, which Rev. 13 shows is the false prophet and those that take the mark of the beast. This is also reiterated at the end of Rev. 20.

What I think is important about Revelation is that it is the only piece in the New Testament that thoroughly describes what would happen to Jerusalem as well as what would happen during the times of the Gentiles, something the rest of Scripture, save for Daniel 7, is silent about.

I understand quite a bit about apocalyptic liteerature actually, and have actually studied nostradamus and many other 'end of the world' prophets. However I will admit that I most likely haven't studied them quite as thoroughly as you have. I have read many prophetic scriptures, however I never came to the conclusion that they have a more organized setup. I understand what you're saying. However regardless of how organized the prophecy is, it doesn't necessarily make it true. Many end of the world prophecies have been made, all written by imperfect man, and all so far with a 0% accuracy rate. Therefore forgive me I find myself skeptical of yet another imperfect man's prediction, regardless of whether Christian or not.

Also, please explain to me your interpretation of Matthew 22: 1-14 in greater detail. I re-read it and could find no indication of it describing the 'destruction of Jerusalem for rejecting the Gospel and killing the saints.'

I'm not trying to insult you, in fact I find your passion for Christianity quite commendable. I'm just hoping to open your mind to what at least I believe to be a more realistic perspective.

I appreciate it. I have been realistic about it, otherwise I would not have ever abandoned futurism. I am on a quest for truth, and I can't shake the nagging feeling that Revelation is true.

If one could deduce that Revelation was written before Jerusalem's destruction, then it becomes even more true.

Once again, I am not attempting to derail or diminish your discussion. I'm simply expressing my beliefs concerning the book of Revelation, and my own personal faith in Jesus Christ. I personally find that following Christ only is more realistic than anything, and that adding to or taking away from his message is just not his intention.

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Mr. Bluefinger.

How does the war of "GOG AND MAGOG" (EZK. 38&39) fit into your prophetic time line? and has this war already happend?

Edited by Ogbin

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At the end of Matthew Chapter 28 Jesus says that we are living in an age, a time cycle, which will come to an end. This happens on a mountain by the Sea of Galilee, a mountain that was a place Jesus had specified to his disciples. It is Mary of Magdala who directs the apostles to this mountain which would seem to be Mount Arbel next to the town of Magdala.

At the beginning of the book of Revelations it is said to be a prophecy of what will happen hereafter and the first three chapters are all about 7 churches that are named by Jesus. These churches are in present day Turkey, their locations are well known, as are their Latitudes and Longitudes. We are told that there is a 'secret meaning' in these churches and that they are lamps of gold.

Working with these locations it can be readily shown that they form two alignments of the first 2 churches and the last 5 churches following Great Circle bearing lines. The 5 church bearing line then leaves Turkey and goes to the northen part of the Holy Land to a location on the Sea of Galilee, Mount Arbel and Magdala where Jesus has talked about the end of a time cycle.

These alignments are part of a much larger design of ancient landscape geometry which from other Gospel references Jesus was aware of and drawing our attention to.

The geometry is a fact. Should we ignore it now that we know it is there? Should we turn a blind eye to it?

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Mr. Bluefinger.

How does the war of "GOG AND MAGOG" (EZK. 38&39) fit into your prophetic time line? and has this war already happend?

Hi Ogbin,

Hard to tell. I haven't done too thorough of an exegesis on the book. From what The New Oxford Annotated Bible states, it is likely that the book of Elijah was written down shortly after Ezekiel spoke, uncommon to most books in the Biblical canon. Chapters 1-24 talk about the fall of Jerusalem, chapters 25-32 talk about judgments on foreign nations, and chapters 33-48 talk about Israel's restoration.

Now, shortly after the Battle of Gog and Magog, Ezekiel begins talking about the rebuilding of the temple. The sequence seems to indicate that Israel would be settled and at peace well before the temple is rebuilt. Historically, our times is the only time its happened like that. It couldn't be talking about when the second temple was built because the Jews rebuilt the second temple in full battle gear to fight off the Edomites when they came to attack them.

Revelation 20 accounts for the same set of circumstances as well. The Messiah rules with a reign of righteousness for 1,000 years, easily making Israel a camp with no walls and at peace.

Then Gog and Magog are 'gathered' down to spoil Israel (Ezekiel 38:11.) Since that is also the case, Ezekiel's prophecy sounds very similar to Zechariah 14's final battle, where the Lord's feat touch the Mount of Olives and slays all those nations gathered against them. The nations gathered in Zechariah 14 also gather against Jerusalem to spoil her.

In Revelation 20, the Great Judgment seems to happen right after Gog and Magog are slain. In Ezekiel 38, the Battle of Gog and Magog seems to be a beginning of blessings for Israel and a prosperous rule. So, given the facts about what both commentary on the battle of Gog and Magog suggest between Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 20, they seem to be two different battles. Ezekiel 39:25-29 indicates that Jacob and the house of Israel, or the ethnic and political Israel, would be restored from exile and established in their own land where God would pour out His Spirit upon them. In Revelation 20, it seems like this had already happened before the millenial reign began.

So, Ezekiel 38-39 seems to be speaking of the critical events leading up to ethnic Israel receiving God's Spirit in their own land. If you read Revelation 11, after the great earthquake, the rest of the inhabitants in Jerusalem glorify God, breaking a longstanding chain of blindness to God's righteous salvation. In Zechariah 4, there is a great earthquake that splits the Mount of Olives to give Israel a path to flee Jerusalem from. At that point, those that gathered against Israel to spoil Jerusalem are defeated by God's word; or, as Revelation 19:21 says, they are slain with "the sword that came from His mouth."

So, that begs the question: "Why did Revelation 20:8 quote Gog and Magog, obviously alluding to Ezekiel 38 and 39?"

And I think that is because of what Revelation 20:8 says in addition to Gog and Magog: The four corners of the earth. It's basically saying that, much like how Babel rebelled against God after the flood, the nations of the world would throw off Jesus' authority and seek to take His authority and dominion. The magnitude of this event is unthinkable. And that is why the Great Judgment happens immediately afterward. It is the event where all peoples, nations, languages, and tribes are put under the authority and dominion of Christ and all rebellion is put under His power. Then, He will deliver all that is under Him to the Father so that God may be all in all.

That, I believe, is the reason why Gog and Magog is used in Revelation 20:6. It is the event where all powers are put under the authority of Christ; an promise consistently stated by the apostles.

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Hi Ogbin,

Hard to tell. I haven't done too thorough of an exegesis on the book. From what The New Oxford Annotated Bible states, it is likely that the book of Elijah was written down shortly after Ezekiel spoke, uncommon to most books in the Biblical canon. Chapters 1-24 talk about the fall of Jerusalem, chapters 25-32 talk about judgments on foreign nations, and chapters 33-48 talk about Israel's restoration.

Now, shortly after the Battle of Gog and Magog, Ezekiel begins talking about the rebuilding of the temple. The sequence seems to indicate that Israel would be settled and at peace well before the temple is rebuilt. Historically, our times is the only time its happened like that. It couldn't be talking about when the second temple was built because the Jews rebuilt the second temple in full battle gear to fight off the Edomites when they came to attack them.

Revelation 20 accounts for the same set of circumstances as well. The Messiah rules with a reign of righteousness for 1,000 years, easily making Israel a camp with no walls and at peace.

Then Gog and Magog are 'gathered' down to spoil Israel (Ezekiel 38:11.) Since that is also the case, Ezekiel's prophecy sounds very similar to Zechariah 14's final battle, where the Lord's feat touch the Mount of Olives and slays all those nations gathered against them. The nations gathered in Zechariah 14 also gather against Jerusalem to spoil her.

In Revelation 20, the Great Judgment seems to happen right after Gog and Magog are slain. In Ezekiel 38, the Battle of Gog and Magog seems to be a beginning of blessings for Israel and a prosperous rule. So, given the facts about what both commentary on the battle of Gog and Magog suggest between Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 20, they seem to be two different battles. Ezekiel 39:25-29 indicates that Jacob and the house of Israel, or the ethnic and political Israel, would be restored from exile and established in their own land where God would pour out His Spirit upon them. In Revelation 20, it seems like this had already happened before the millenial reign began.

So, Ezekiel 38-39 seems to be speaking of the critical events leading up to ethnic Israel receiving God's Spirit in their own land. If you read Revelation 11, after the great earthquake, the rest of the inhabitants in Jerusalem glorify God, breaking a longstanding chain of blindness to God's righteous salvation. In Zechariah 4, there is a great earthquake that splits the Mount of Olives to give Israel a path to flee Jerusalem from. At that point, those that gathered against Israel to spoil Jerusalem are defeated by God's word; or, as Revelation 19:21 says, they are slain with "the sword that came from His mouth."

So, that begs the question: "Why did Revelation 20:8 quote Gog and Magog, obviously alluding to Ezekiel 38 and 39?"

And I think that is because of what Revelation 20:8 says in addition to Gog and Magog: The four corners of the earth. It's basically saying that, much like how Babel rebelled against God after the flood, the nations of the world would throw off Jesus' authority and seek to take His authority and dominion. The magnitude of this event is unthinkable. And that is why the Great Judgment happens immediately afterward. It is the event where all peoples, nations, languages, and tribes are put under the authority and dominion of Christ and all rebellion is put under His power. Then, He will deliver all that is under Him to the Father so that God may be all in all.

That, I believe, is the reason why Gog and Magog is used in Revelation 20:6. It is the event where all powers are put under the authority of Christ; an promise consistently stated by the apostles.

John 4: 1-42 'Believe me' said Jesus, 'the time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem.....' He goes on to say you have to worship what you 'know to be true'........worth taking note maybe when considering the geometric sites of the Holy Land......Jesus knew...

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Mr.Bluefinger

Rev.12:1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars."

Joseph had a dream in which he told to Jacob his father and to his brothers. Gen.37:9" ... behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."

Does Josephs dream have anything to do with Rev.12:1?

Edited by Ogbin

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Mr.Bluefinger

Rev.12:1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars."

Joseph had a dream in which he told to Jacob his father and to his brothers. Gen.37:9" ... behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."

Does Josephs dream have anything to do with Rev.12:1?

Most definitely. Jacob revealed what they sun, moon, and stars were too:

"But when he told it to his father and to his brothers, his father rebuked him and said to him, "What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall I and your mother and your brothers indeed come to bow ourselves to the ground before you?" (Genesis 37:10 ESV)

The woman is the nation of Israel. Revelation 12 is showing the woman in exile (in a historical sense.)

"Now why do you cry aloud? Is there no king in you? Has your counselor perished, that pain seized you like a woman in labor? Writhe and groan, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in labor, for now you shall go out from the city and dwell in the open country; you shall go to Babylon. There you shall be rescued; there the Lord will redeem you from the hand of your enemies." (Micah 4:9, 10 ESV)

Edited by Bluefinger

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Mr.Bluefinger

Daniels 70 weeks. 1 week is a 7 year period. Revelation is about the last week (7 year period). Now according to Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:"(7 years). The Tribulation doesn't start untill Revelation 6:2 "And i saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

What say you?

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Mr.Bluefinger

Daniels 70 weeks. 1 week is a 7 year period. Revelation is about the last week (7 year period). Now according to Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:"(7 years). The Tribulation doesn't start untill Revelation 6:2 "And i saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

What say you?

Hey Ogbin, thanks for the challenge.

I'll respond with a couple questions:

1) Daniel 9:26 says that the result of the seventy weeks of years is that Jerusalem would be destroyed by an army. Verse 27 explains why.

So, was it talking about a third destruction of Jerusalem or the second?

2) If it is talking about the third, why would the writer ommit the second? 1.1 million Jews died at Jerusalem alone in 70 CE. Wouldn't that be quite significant for Daniel to know?

Edited by Bluefinger

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Mr.Bluefinger

Daniels 70 weeks. 1 week is a 7 year period. Revelation is about the last week (7 year period). Now according to Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:"(7 years). The Tribulation doesn't start untill Revelation 6:2 "And i saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

What say you?

Concerning Revelation, it doesn't state seven years. Indeed, if you read Daniel 12:7, the tribulation mentioned in 12:1 lasts only 3.5 years. The war in Judea started in 66 CE and ended 3.5 years later with Jerusalem's destruction. The seige, captured in a hyperbole described in the fifth trumpet blast, lasted five months as well.

So, while I agree that the tribulation that Daniel spoke of began with the first seal, I'm of the belief that it is describing the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, rather than a third destruction. In fact, if it weren't for the preserved works of Flavius Josephus, we might have thought it hardly mattered to the Jews.

The second destruction of Jerusalem and the exile they experienced for nearly two thousand years is not something one would expect to be omitted from Old Testament apocalypic writing. Even the Gospell narratives make it a huge point to show Jesus' prophecies about Jerusalem's destruction, much of what He quoted from Daniel's writings.

Edited by Bluefinger

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