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Big Bad Voodoo

Out of India theory

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Anyone who pay attention what I usually wrote know that prefer Kurgan theory when we talk about Indo Europeans. But I found out one interesting theory. Out of India theory which says that Indo European language family originate from Indian subcontinent. That IE in waves start to migrate to Asia and finally in Europe. Theory dates from 18 century but there are scientists who claim that this might be the case. Many famous people in history belive in it, Kant, Friedrich Schlegel ,Voltaire, Schoppenhauer.OIT said that proto IE lived in Punjab, north India. They migrate to Bactria (Kambojas) and later to Central asia, Caspian coast (Paradas) and to Tarim Basin (Cinas). Which is now known as Tocharians group of IE speakers. Then in 2000 BC IE went further to Anatolia and Balkan and created own dialect of IE language by mixing with local people and their languages. In central Asia IE discovered uses of horse. In the end they migrate in western Europe. In 4th millenium BC Indus Valley civilization rise and Indo Iranians expand in Mesopotamia and Central Asia that way Proto Indo European languages evolved to Proto Indo Iranian languages, leaving behind the Proto Indo Aryans. When Saraswati river dry out in c. 1900BC Indo Aryans migrate and establish Mittani kingdom c 1500 BC in west and they went south in India and mix with Dravidian people. I read once that there is evidences of Iranians in India before they were in Central Asia. OIT say that there has been no migrations or invasion into India until 520 BC Darius and Persians conquer India and later Alexander circa 327 BC leaving Greeks in that area after his death. Theory also said that Vedic texts describe migrations out of India and not describe any migrations into India. And there is no archaeologcial evidence for Aryan invasion or migration. I will quote wiki here: Thus while the linguistic community stands firm with the Kurgan hypothesis archaeological community tends to be more agnostic.

Also theory that Aryan invasion cause fall of Indus valley civilization is debunked and Aryans didnt cause urbanization of Ganga Yamuna valley.We also know that Tin was used in Mesoptamia around 3000 BC. And we know that Tin mines are on Balkan, south England and Afghanistan. From where Tin came in Mesopotamia? Probably from Afghanistan. Or perhaps from Mohenjodaro and Harappa. We know that from 3500 metalcasting was done in IVC. Bronze was in use from 3300 BC in Harappa. Is it possible that Indo Iranians bring artifacts from Tin perhaps?

OIT is often dismissed with just mentioning of Dravidian language. But that can be explained with Proto Elamo Dravidian language originate in Mesopotamia and spread to south India where can still be found. There are indeed similarites betweeb Elamite and Harappan script. Then existence of Brahui language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahui_language

Brahui is spoken in the southwestern Pakistan, as well as in regions of Afghanistan and Iran that border Pakistan.

Whats your opinion?

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When I heard about OIT I instantly start thinking on Gypsies. Here is what wiki said about them:Genetic and linguistic evidence has prooven that Gypsies or Romani people originate from India. According to one theory they migrate about 500 AD in the west. Originally they were in Rajasthan and they moved circa 250 BC to Punjab and Sindh. So do we actually seen OIT in front of our eyes? Did gypsies followed ancient route? Did they search for their lost countrymen and hope that they will be accepted due ancient unity?

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East Europeans indeed share some things with NW Indians. Im a Croat so I will try to gave you examples of linguistic similarites between Croatian language and Sanskirt.

Meaning-Croatian-Sanskrit-Meaning

to argue-svađati –vadati-dispute about

to ask-prosit-prachhati-to ask

to bake-peći-pacati- bake

to bark-lajati-rayati-to bark

to be-biti-bhavati-to become

to burn-gorjeti-ghаrati- burn

to transport-voziti-vahati-to transport

to catch-loviti-labhate-to catch

to cough-kašljati-kāsate-to cough

to drink-piti –piyate-to drink

to dry-sušiti-śuṣyati-to dry

to fall-padati-padyate-to fall

to fart-prditi-pardati-to break wind downwards

to fear-bojati se– bhyasate-be afraid, tremble

to go, walk-ići/šetati-iṭ /eṭati-to go

to know-znati-jānāti-to know (or zna-jna)

to lick-lizati – lihati-to lick

to live-živjeti-jīvati-to live

to love,to kiss-ljubiti-lubhati-to desire, be interested in

to melt-topiti-tapati-to make hot

to measure-mjeriti-miroti-to measure

to praise-slaviti-śramyati-sound, shout, loud praise

to roll-valjati-valate-to turn

to shake-tresti-trasyati-to tremble

to sit-sjediti-sīdati-to sit upon

to sleep-spavati-svapiti-to sleep

to stay awake-Budan/bdjeti-budhyati-to be awake

to stick-lijepiti-limpyati- to stick

to swim-plivati-plavate-to swim

to turn back-vratiti-vartate-to turn

to wake up-buditi-budhyate-to wake up

to have sexual intercourse-jebati-yabhati-to have sexual intercourse

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Y-Haplogroup_R1_distribution.png

2011 Genetic study :

…we confirmed the existence of a general principal component cline stretching from Europe to south India.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3234374/

Distribution of R1a (purple) and R1b (red)see above

But according to wiki Y DNA haplogroup R2 and is rarely found outside India, Pakistan, Iran, and southern Central Asia.

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According to wiki Rigveda are vedic sanskirt ten book with hymns which dates from 1700-1100 BC in west India and its one of oldest text in any IE languages according to philological and linguistic evidences. Cultulary and linguisticly looking there are similarites between Iranian Avesta which we often connect with Andronovo and Sintashta Petrovka cultures of 2200-1600 BC. Sarasvati river is mentioned in all ten books except 4th. It even outnumber mentioning of Indus. It was worshiped as one of three great goddesses which rides swan. Rigveda dont mention Aryans at all. How come if they recoreded how people migrate from India? That realy support OIT.

Sarasvati river was mentioned in Nadistuti hymn in Rigveda between Yamuna and Sutlej. Interestingly Rigveda 10 and sam hymn glorify river Sindhu and from that scholars concluded that already Sarasvati dry out. But that doesnt have to be case since Rigveda 10 was written later then others. Other documents such as Jaiminiya, Tandya and Mahabharata say that it dried up in desert. I search on Internet and information contradicts when that happened. Some say that Satulaj and Yamuna once fed Sarasvati but due some tectonic events (which?) Satluj gone west into Indus and Yamuna east into Ganges.On wiki it said that French satelite SPOT find Sarasvati and that was pre Harappan and start drying from 3500 BC. Number of archaeological sites near shadow river Sarasvati outnumber sites around Indus river. There are 414 sites around Sarasvati and 80% of them dates from 4000 to 2000 BC. Which tell us that river was still there during that period.

It is possible that Rigveda predates Indus valley civilization. Because Rigveda doesnt mention silver. Only bronze and gold. Although we know that Indus valley civilization used silver. Rigveda doesnt speak about brick either and brick was one of main feature of Indus valley civilization. Rigveda doesnt mention rice or cotton. And rice was used in Indus Valley civilization such as in Mohenjodaro and Lothal. Cotton was also used by Harappans. Rigveda doesnt mention fire altars, tubed drainages large cities, buildings, and so on.

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In 6th millennium BC Mehrgarh culture (todays Pakistan) reached their zenith. It was precursor to the Indus Valley Civilization.

It was a time when Black sea floods with salt water, time when tsunami from Mt.Etna ruined Med. Coast, time when female sculptures with snakes are produced on Crete,time when Hekla erupted on Iceland, time when , according to Byzantine calendar, (01.09.5509 BC) dates Bible creation.

In 4th millenium BC Indus Valley civilization rise and Indo Iranians expand in Mesopotamia and Central Asia that way Proto Indo European languages evolved to Proto Indo Iranian languages, leaving behind the Proto Indo Aryans.

Who knows what might happend then?vIn 4th millenium BC in Mesopotamia, Egypt civilizations took first steps. In Peru, China, Balkan cultures developed. Maykop culture use Bronze, Vinča culture developed, Varna culture use gold. In 3100 BC Narmer plate was created as sign of united Upper and Lower Egypt and new capital Memphis. Interestingly in August 11, 3114 BC Mayans start their calendar. Writting is developed in Mesopotamia then in Egypt. Horses are domesticated in Ukraine before cca. 1000 years. Agriculture flourished. Beginnings of urbanisation in Sumer and Egypt. Lyres,flutes, harps were played in Egypt. On Malta Ggantija megalithic temple is built 3600 BC, followd by 3200 BC Tarxien temple and Hagar Qim. Gobekli Tepe was burried. Dog is our friend for long now. Mamooths are long extinct. No signs of Neanderthals. In 3300 BC Otzi Iceman kill himself on border in Italy and Austria.

So are Europeans (except Basques) originate in India?

Edited by the L

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Only thing which people use against OIT is that only one branch of Indo-European language is found in India. Which is not true.

Even wiki used that as fact have explaination.

Only one branch of Indo-European, Indo-Aryan, is found in India, whereas the Italic, Venetic, Illyrian, Germanic, Baltic, Slavic, Thracian, and Greek branches of Indo-European are all found in Central-Eastern Europe.However, the existence of the Tocharian language family in Western China would shift the center of gravity eastward. Some scholars argue that the various language families in Central and Eastern Europe evolved fairly recently, which implies that there was less diversity in the western side of the Indo-European language family during the 2nd millennium BCE at a time contemporaneous with Vedic Sanskrit.

But its not true.

In India we have Pali, Magadhi, Sauraseni, Maharashtri /Prakrit languages which shares similarities with Indo European languages and not found in Vedas. For that languages sceptics use theory of multiple migrations in India. Many philologists support that view that they are brench of IE same as Indo Aryan. Usually those who support OIT,

Edited by the L

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Anyway I always liked diversity of India,Gandhi,Taj Mahal,Zero, Chess, Ayurveda, Vastu, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Kama Sutra, Elephants, Hinduism Islam Jainism Buddhism, Ellora caves, Varansi, Concept of time in cycles-Yuga, Plastic surgery, Mughal empire, Gupta empire, Indian math, Kerala, Ashoka, Tigers, Vimanas, Indus Valley Civilization, Kalaripayattu, Indian rebelion, Indus, Ganges, Saraswati,Submerged city Dwarka, Tamil,...I knew that isnt for nothing. :innocent:

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Im not philologist but still...

http://en.wikipedia....-satem_isogloss

Division of language into Centum and Satem

centum (blue, except that Tocharian on the east is grey)

Centum_Satem_map.png

Whats in middle?

Iran and India.

Blue: Centum languages

Indo-European_isoglosses.png

Edited by the L

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I think we only need to find more proof that Iranians originate from India.

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So are Europeans (except Basques) originate in India?

Lone Wolf (and cub). No, we are from the area of the Black Sea. I do not go with one precise location, for instance Maikop peninsula, Rostov-on-Don or Krasnodar. The evidence is not so clear on this affair so I think it best to just go with Black Sea area. There is certainly evidence of movements out of that area to far west of Europe and even to northern China. I speak about the Celts, as I believe the mummies found in northern China wore clothes of type used by Celts, in particular a specific type of pattern and weave of their clothes. I use them as example of now far migrations went, and I see no reason why some, not necessarily Celts of course, migrated into northern India. I expect you will soon get very very long and detailed reply, probably out of India......

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Lone Wolf (and cub). No, we are from the area of the Black Sea. I do not go with one precise location, for instance Maikop peninsula, Rostov-on-Don or Krasnodar. The evidence is not so clear on this affair so I think it best to just go with Black Sea area. There is certainly evidence of movements out of that area to far west of Europe and even to northern China. I speak about the Celts, as I believe the mummies found in northern China wore clothes of type used by Celts, in particular a specific type of pattern and weave of their clothes. I use them as example of now far migrations went, and I see no reason why some, not necessarily Celts of course, migrated into northern India. I expect you will soon get very very long and detailed reply, probably out of India......

Hi!

This is my first sentence in post 1.

Anyone who pay attention what I usually wrote know that prefer Kurgan theory when we talk about Indo Europeans.

But I dont want that this thread become finding proof for Kurgan or Anatolia theory. Although that is connected. We search for origin of IE.

I wish that we discuss possibility of OIT. What if is true? Can we find more evidence that support it?

I dont know how Tarim Basin mummies fits into Kurgan, Anatolia or India theory.

I think that if we found more evidence that Iranians originate from India that OIT might realy be true.

Because that explain everything very well.

I knew soon as I seen your name that you will vote for south Russia theory. :rolleyes:

Thanks on answer.

Edited by the L
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1.Rigveda (alternaive view? )mentioned some tribes which we can connect with Iranians.

Prthu-Parthians

Parsu-Persians

Madra-Medes

2.According to the Histories of Herodotus

The Medes were called anciently by all people Aryans; but when Medea, the Colchian, came to them from Athens, they changed their name. Such is the account which they themselves give.

Edited by the L

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Indians and Iranians have ancient unity, culturaly, lingusticly and geographicly. Rigveda and Avesta are lingusticly similar. Rigveda and Avesta can be use as evidence of their main origin. Was that India?

Ever wonder why we dont have archaeologcial evidence for Anatolia and Kurgan hypothesis in the term of architecture?

What if Out of India theory is true? Does that mean that Harappan civilization is actualy home of Indo Europeans?

Recently we push back date of Indus Valley civilization site, Bhirrana to 7380 BC.

http://www.hinducurrents.com/articles/share/107979/?utm_campaign=Today%27s+top+stories+from+Hindu+Currents+2012-11-05&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter

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Indians i.e. Hindus worshipped 'devas' whereas zorastrians worshipped 'asuras/ahura'. Devas and Asuras were enemies and continously in a state of war according to ancient texts.

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Indians i.e. Hindus worshipped 'devas' whereas zorastrians worshipped 'asuras/ahura'. Devas and Asuras were enemies and continously in a state of war according to ancient texts.

What ancient texts?

Maybe Asuras lost war and be forced to mirgate.

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What ancient texts?

Maybe Asuras lost war and be forced to mirgate.

In almost all of Hindu Mythology there is a continous struggle between the Daevas and Asuras. With epic battles and Warrior Cheftains on both sides. Asura's losing the war and being forced to migrate is a very credible scenario.

Also the question that if they did migrate could they have gone as far as the South Americas and Australia?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/science/Genes-link-Australia-with-India-Indians-broke-Australian-isolation-study-says/articleshow/18029070.cms

SYDNEY: People from the Indian sub-continent migrated to Australia and mixed with Aborigines 4,000 years ago, bringing the dingo dog with them, according to a study published on Tuesday.

The continent was thought to have been isolated from other populations until Europeans landed at the end of the 1700s.

But researchers at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, reported "evidence of substantial gene flow between Indian populations and Australia about 4,000 years ago".

They analysed genetic variation from across the genome from Australian Aborigines, New Guineans, Southeast Asians, and Indians.

"Long before Europeans settled in Australia humans had migrated from the Indian subcontinent to Australia and mixed with Australian Aborigines," the study said.

It found "substantial gene flow from India to Australia 4,230 years ago ie... well before European contact," it said.

"Interestingly," said researcher Irina Pugach, "this date also coincides with many changes in the archaeological record of Australia, which include a sudden change in plant processing and stone tool technologies... and the first appearance of the dingo in the fossil record.

"Since we detect inflow of genes from India into Australia at around the same time, it is likely that these changes were related to this migration," she said.

A common origin was also discovered for the Australian, New Guinean and Philippine Mamanwa populations who had followed a southern migration route out of Africa begun more than 40,000 years ago.

The researchers estimate the groups split about 36,000 years ago.

Australia offers some of the earliest archaeological evidence for the presence of humans outside Africa, with sites dated to at least 45,000 years ago.

Also i would like to point out that the Mayans followed Venus for their calendar (Asuras are Known to have followed Venus or 'Shukra',and shukracharya was their leader and the daevas followed Jupiter or 'Brihaspati' as their leader).

There are many astounding similarities.The tales of wars between Daevas and Asuras state that the Dominion over the living world was controlled by the Asuras at one point of time after which the Daevas teaming up with the 'Maruts' (Sons of Shiva) defeated the Asuras and forced them to migrate or to put it more in perspective,banished them.

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In almost all of Hindu Mythology there is a continous struggle between the Daevas and Asuras. With epic battles and Warrior Cheftains on both sides. Asura's losing the war and being forced to migrate is a very credible scenario.

Also the question that if they did migrate could they have gone as far as the South Americas and Australia?

http://timesofindia....ow/18029070.cms

SYDNEY: People from the Indian sub-continent migrated to Australia and mixed with Aborigines 4,000 years ago, bringing the dingo dog with them, according to a study published on Tuesday.

The continent was thought to have been isolated from other populations until Europeans landed at the end of the 1700s.

But researchers at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, reported "evidence of substantial gene flow between Indian populations and Australia about 4,000 years ago".

They analysed genetic variation from across the genome from Australian Aborigines, New Guineans, Southeast Asians, and Indians.

"Long before Europeans settled in Australia humans had migrated from the Indian subcontinent to Australia and mixed with Australian Aborigines," the study said.

It found "substantial gene flow from India to Australia 4,230 years ago ie... well before European contact," it said.

"Interestingly," said researcher Irina Pugach, "this date also coincides with many changes in the archaeological record of Australia, which include a sudden change in plant processing and stone tool technologies... and the first appearance of the dingo in the fossil record.

"Since we detect inflow of genes from India into Australia at around the same time, it is likely that these changes were related to this migration," she said.

A common origin was also discovered for the Australian, New Guinean and Philippine Mamanwa populations who had followed a southern migration route out of Africa begun more than 40,000 years ago.

The researchers estimate the groups split about 36,000 years ago.

Australia offers some of the earliest archaeological evidence for the presence of humans outside Africa, with sites dated to at least 45,000 years ago.

Also i would like to point out that the Mayans followed Venus for their calendar (Asuras are Known to have followed Venus or 'Shukra',and shukracharya was their leader and the daevas followed Jupiter or 'Brihaspati' as their leader).

There are many astounding similarities.The tales of wars between Daevas and Asuras state that the Dominion over the living world was controlled by the Asuras at one point of time after which the Daevas teaming up with the 'Maruts' (Sons of Shiva) defeated the Asuras and forced them to migrate or to put it more in perspective,banished them.

Imagine this. Who would say. So OIT sure did happend, just in what extend?

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In your first post, you say (or at least imply) that the linguistic community is solidly behind the Kurgan hypothesis. I pretty solidly support the hypothesis, but it's a gross misrepresentation to say that's the current linguistic consensus. There are several competing theories, of which the Kurgan is only one. And the out of India one is the one with the least critical acceptance.

--Jaylemurph

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The article says there was some influence 4000 years ago, granted, but the main migration happened between 30,000 and 45,000 years ago from Africa, also in the article btw.

Besides, the Out Of India Theory is controversial and far from being proven. Several points go right against the grain of this theory.

- The linguistic center of gravity principle states that a language family's most likely point of origin is in the area of its greatest diversity. Only one branch of Indo-European, Indo-Aryan, is found in India, whereas the Italic, Venetic, Illyrian, Germanic, Baltic, Slavic, Thracian, and Greek branches of Indo-European are all found in Central-Eastern Europe.

- The Indic languages show the influence of the Dravidian and Munda language families. If the Indo-European origin had been located in India, then it stands to reason that the Indo-European languages should have shown some influence from Dravidian and Munda, yet no other branch of Indo-European does.

- To postulate the migration of PIE speakers out of India necessitates an earlier dating of the Rigveda than is normally accepted by Vedic scholars, meaning you need to adapt established facts to make it work. That's usually a rather bad sign right there.

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- The linguistic center of gravity principle states that a language family's most likely point of origin is in the area of its greatest diversity. Only one branch of Indo-European, Indo-Aryan, is found in India, whereas the Italic, Venetic, Illyrian, Germanic, Baltic, Slavic, Thracian, and Greek branches of Indo-European are all found in Central-Eastern Europe.

Center is switched toward east. Look post 9. Tocharian language.

Also only thing which people use against OIT is that only one branch of Indo-European language is found in India. Which I think is not true.(?)

But Im not philologist.

In India we have Pali, Magadhi, Sauraseni, Maharashtri /Prakrit languages which shares similarities with Indo European languages and not found in Vedic texts. For that languages sceptics use theory of multiple migrations in India. That on waves people migrate in India.

So major question is : Are Pali, Magadhi, Sauraseni, Maharashtri /Prakrit languages sister languages with Indo Aryan?

If is in India only one brench of Indo european-Indo Aryan that goes on side of sceptics of OIT.

But even then, Tocharian language in China might be evidence that OIT is true.

However, Tocharians might came from Europe or Central Asia which would go agains OIT.

- The Indic languages show the influence of the Dravidian and Munda language families. If the Indo-European origin had been located in India, then it stands to reason that the Indo-European languages should have shown some influence from Dravidian and Munda, yet no other branch of Indo-European does.

That can be explained with Proto Elamo Dravidian language originate in Mesopotamia and spread to south India where can still be found. There are indeed similarites betweeb Elamite and Harappan script. Then existence of Brahui language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahui_language

Brahui is spoken in the southwestern Pakistan, as well as in regions of Afghanistan and Iran that border Pakistan.

- To postulate the migration of PIE speakers out of India necessitates an earlier dating of the Rigveda than is normally accepted by Vedic scholars, meaning you need to adapt established facts to make it work. That's usually a rather bad sign right there.

According to wiki Rigveda are vedic sanskirt ten book with hymns which dates from 1700-1100 BC in west India and its one of oldest text in any IE languages according to philological and linguistic evidences. Cultulary and linguisticly looking there are similarites between Iranian Avesta which we often connect with Andronovo and Sintashta Petrovka cultures of 2200-1600 BC. Sarasvati river is mentioned in all ten books except 4th. It even outnumber mentioning of Indus. It was worshiped as one of three great goddesses which rides swan. Rigveda dont mention Aryans at all. How come if they recoreded how people migrate from India? That realy support OIT.

Sarasvati river was mentioned in Nadistuti hymn in Rigveda between Yamuna and Sutlej. Interestingly Rigveda 10 and sam hymn glorify river Sindhu and from that scholars concluded that already Sarasvati dry out. But that doesnt have to be case since Rigveda 10 was written later then others. Other documents such as Jaiminiya, Tandya and Mahabharata say that it dried up in desert. I search on Internet and information contradicts when that happened. Some say that Satulaj and Yamuna once fed Sarasvati but due some tectonic events (which?) Satluj gone west into Indus and Yamuna east into Ganges.On wiki it said that French satelite SPOT find Sarasvati and that was pre Harappan and start drying from 3500 BC. Number of archaeological sites near shadow river Sarasvati outnumber sites around Indus river. There are 414 sites around Sarasvati and 80% of them dates from 4000 to 2000 BC. Which tell us that river was still there during that period.

It is possible that Rigveda predates Indus valley civilization. Because Rigveda doesnt mention silver. Only bronze and gold. Although we know that Indus valley civilization used silver. Rigveda doesnt speak about brick either and brick was one of main feature of Indus valley civilization. Rigveda doesnt mention rice or cotton. And rice was used in Indus Valley civilization such as in Mohenjodaro and Lothal. Cotton was also used by Harappans. Rigveda doesnt mention fire altars, tubed drainages large cities, buildings, and so on.

And the out of India one is the one with the least critical acceptance.

--Jaylemurph

Could you developed that.

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So major question is : Are Pali, Magadhi, Sauraseni, Maharashtri /Prakrit languages sister languages with Indo Aryan?

If is in India only one brench of Indo european-Indo Aryan that goes on side of sceptics of OIT.

But even then, Tocharian language in China might be evidence that OIT is true.

However, Tocharians might came from Europe or Central Asia which would go agains OIT.

You do understand there is no such thing as a single Indo-Aryan language, right? It's a description for a whole language /family/. And all the languges you mention are well-documented to daughter languages of the Indic pre-cursor.

In fact, that you are using the term "Indo-Aryan" is sort of a sign you're not up-to-date with the most current linguistic information. The term of choice is Indic or Indo-Iranian, depending on what level of relationships your discussing. It's used mostly to separate from people using bunk science from a century or so ago (not to name names, but as a group they were fond of book burning and not fond of Semitic-speaking folks).

So (and forgive me for being blunt), but you seem not only to not be cognizant of current linguistic practices and norms, but you also seem not understand the basic model of how languages relate to each other. It's like you're trying to find a new way to cure hysteria by regulating someone's choler levels. I suppose you could do it if you consulted only enough old texts, but you'd be hard pressed to convince a modern doctor of the need to do so. And you certainly wouldn't be re-writing current medical theory.

Could you developed that.

No: I can't prove a negative, so I can't prove something /isn't/ a consensus in the linguistic community. If you wish to, however, you might try to prove the out of India theory is that consensus. Although that would be difficult.

--Jaylemurph

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I think we only need to find more proof that Iranians originate from India.

This may be a back to front way of looking at it................But if we know of the language similarities with Avesta , and we know there were large numbers of people from Iran/Persian area moving into India........ But we cant find DNA traces of a large movement of people coming in..............Then a likely reason for this could be that it is the same DNA that is returning to it's origin , so it is not going to show up as an influx ??

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This may be a back to front way of looking at it................But if we know of the language similarities with Avesta , and we know there were large numbers of people from Iran/Persian area moving into India........ But we cant find DNA traces of a large movement of people coming in..............Then a likely reason for this could be that it is the same DNA that is returning to it's origin , so it is not going to show up as an influx ??

One thing to keep in mind is that genetics and language are two very different things, and the predictive power of one is virtually nil for the other. A society can as a whole change the language it speaks without a major change to its genetic information, and they can keep their language even with major influxes of new genetic data. A good look at reliable information about the Tocharians mentioned earlier would make an example of this. The only time I'm aware genetics is even used in linguistics is when there is no actual linguistic data to go on, as in pre-Historic/pre-written cultures, for languages that are currently dead. This is not the case for a great deal of Indic langauges, especially ones like L has been throwing around (Pakrit, Avestan, et al).

I might speak Japanese*, and my mother might speak Japanese, but you'd be wrong to assume I have any Asian genetic heritage. By the same token, I know manu Japanese people who routinely speak English, but not one of them had an Angle, Saxon, or Jute (or Briton) in their family tree.

--Jaylemurph

*I am not smart enough to speak Japanese.

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