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Big Bad Voodoo

Out of India theory

85 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

OUT OF INDIA THEORY IS NOT TENABLE - Acculturation is the key. request mainstream researchers to take up indology in the 21st century. Brining the field uptodate will lead to a revolution in many a field of science

The Demise of the Dravidian, Vedic and Paramunda Indus myths

I am publishing my sixth research paper directly online as it is an extension of my previous papers. Kindly read pages 4 to 18 as it contains a detailed discussion of the term ‘Aryan’. This paper shows why the Dravidian, Vedic and Paramunda Indus theories are not tenable.

www.scribd.com/doc/136268397/The-demise-of-the-Dravidian-Vedic-and-Paramunda-Indus-myths

Methods to reconstruct the languages of the Harappans were presented in the present and previous papers. We hope other scholars take up the exercise of reconstructing the languages of the Indus Valley civilization!

The older papers were written taking the assumptions of the 19th century school of Indology as a base and working backwards. These may appear to be outdated now (at the end of our very long journey). However, the fundamentals are still correct.

Part one

http://www.scribd.com/doc/27103044/Sujay-NPAP-Part-One

Part Two very,very important!

www.scribd.com/doc/27105677/Sujay-Npap-Part-Two

(These comprise the complete and comprehensive solution to the Aryan problem)

for those who have trouble reading the papers in Scribd use the links below:

part one http://www.docstoc.c...y-NPAP-Part-One

part two (very important) http://www.docstoc.c...Y-NPAP-Part-Two Literacy in pre-Buddhist India (before 600 BC)

Literacy in pre-Buddhist India (before 600 BC)

Please find my collection of papers on literacy in Pre-Buddhist India

Before mature phase of Indus valley civilization (before 2600 BC)

- There are some potters marks but none qualify as full writing

Indus valley civilization (2600 BC to 1900 BC)

1. The reconfirmation and reinforcement of the Indus script thesis (very logical and self explanatory paper)

www.scribd.com/doc/46387240/Sujay-Indus-Script-Final-Version-Final-Final

2. The reintroduction of the lost manuscript hypothesis (the case for this thesis has obviously become much stronger in the recent past)

www.scribd.com/doc/111707419/Sujay-Indus-Reintroducing-Lost-Manuscript-Hypothesis

Post-Harappan India (1600 BC to 600 BC)

1. Literacy in post-Harappan india (obviously literacy in post-Harappan India existed in certain pockets & were limited to very small sections of society- alphabetic scripts were brought from West Asia and the Indus script also continued – this a very logical and self-explanatory paper and anyone can cross-verify the conclusions)

www.scribd.com/doc/127306265/Sujay-Post-Harappan-Literacy-and-origin-of-Brahmi

Sujay Rao Mandavilli

Edited by sujayrao
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OUT OF INDIA THEORY IS NOT TENABLE - Acculturation is the key. request mainstream researchers to take up indology in the 21st century. Brining the field uptodate will lead to a revolution in many a field of science

The Demise of the Dravidian, Vedic and Paramunda Indus myths

I am publishing my sixth research paper directly online as it is an extension of my previous papers. Kindly read pages 4 to 18 as it contains a detailed discussion of the term ‘Aryan’. This paper shows why the Dravidian, Vedic and Paramunda Indus theories are not tenable.

www.scribd.com/doc/136268397/The-demise-of-the-Dravidian-Vedic-and-Paramunda-Indus-myths

Methods to reconstruct the languages of the Harappans were presented in the present and previous papers. We hope other scholars take up the exercise of reconstructing the languages of the Indus Valley civilization!

The older papers were written taking the assumptions of the 19th century school of Indology as a base and working backwards. These may appear to be outdated now (at the end of our very long journey). However, the fundamentals are still correct.

Part one

http://www.scribd.co...y-NPAP-Part-One

Part Two very,very important!

www.scribd.com/doc/27105677/Sujay-Npap-Part-Two

(These comprise the complete and comprehensive solution to the Aryan problem)

for those who have trouble reading the papers in Scribd use the links below:

part one http://www.docstoc.c...y-NPAP-Part-One

part two (very important) http://www.docstoc.c...Y-NPAP-Part-Two Literacy in pre-Buddhist India (before 600 BC)

Literacy in pre-Buddhist India (before 600 BC)

Please find my collection of papers on literacy in Pre-Buddhist India

Before mature phase of Indus valley civilization (before 2600 BC)

- There are some potters marks but none qualify as full writing

Indus valley civilization (2600 BC to 1900 BC)

1. The reconfirmation and reinforcement of the Indus script thesis (very logical and self explanatory paper)

www.scribd.com/doc/46387240/Sujay-Indus-Script-Final-Version-Final-Final

2. The reintroduction of the lost manuscript hypothesis (the case for this thesis has obviously become much stronger in the recent past)

www.scribd.com/doc/111707419/Sujay-Indus-Reintroducing-Lost-Manuscript-Hypothesis

Post-Harappan India (1600 BC to 600 BC)

1. Literacy in post-Harappan india (obviously literacy in post-Harappan India existed in certain pockets & were limited to very small sections of society- alphabetic scripts were brought from West Asia and the Indus script also continued – this a very logical and self-explanatory paper and anyone can cross-verify the conclusions)

www.scribd.com/doc/127306265/Sujay-Post-Harappan-Literacy-and-origin-of-Brahmi

Sujay Rao Mandavilli

You have an interesting post. Am currently reading the first link.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/136268397/Sujay-The-demise-of-the-Dravidian-Vedic-and-Paramunda-Indus-myths

I had a few question regarding the basic premises of your study:

1.

Aryavartta and it's geographical bounds.

2.

Compilation of the Rig Veda took place between 1700 BC and 1500 BC WRT to the term "Arya".

This is used as an argument by you to show that the word "Arya" was coined in Iran. But can you elaborate more on where you stand with the dating of the R.V., it might have been compiled in 1700-1500 BC in written form but the word Arya might have been used in the RV way before as a spoken word i.e Smriti.

3.

You have assumed an IE migration into India and Iran.

Is it possible that there was no such migration?

4.

You state that the R.V. uses Arya to represent multiple peoples and otherwise the term is usually used in a cultural context.

Is it possible that the culture of Arya was well acepted by different peoples in India and Iran and other places as well?

5.

You claim that the term Arya was coined in Iran because the country was named after it.

Wouldn't this be evidence that the term was brought to Iran by Aryas who settled there and named the country so?

6.

You are assuming that the term "Arya" came to India only when R.V. was compiled in written form. This is a very fundamental assumption which can be wrong.

The R.V. shows almost no knowledge of Bricks "ishtaka" and various other metals and practices that were well known in India by 1700 B.C., would it be prudent to still assume that the R.V. originated in 1700 B.C. when it does not mention contemporary items in 1700 B.C.?

7.

You claim that the R.V. talks of Dasas or Harrappans. Can you provide citations?

As far as i was aware the RV does not know of the IVC.This argument is used to predate the R.V. as compared to the IVC.

8.

You claim Mleccha was a term used for Harrapans in Sanskrit literature. Can you provide citations?

Mleccha meant unclean or polluted.

Brahmins had a stict personel hygeine routine which they followed everyday, Mleccha was an opposite to this i.e people who did not take bath regularly or did not give lot of importance to personel hygeine and a daily curriculum of cultured lifestyle.

Mleccha and Melluha connection?

Harrappans were people who clearly paid attention to personal Hygeine.I don't think Harrappans were reffered to as Mleccha's. It was a more general term for people who did not follow the arya lifestyle of hygeine and cleaniness which was associated with Arya culture.

9.

What is your take on Asura/Ahura and Deva/Daeva?

10.

If not Arya, what culture would you attribute to the IVC? Frawley's paradox.

Expanse of the IVC was huge maybe all the way till turkmenistan and iraq.

Gonur Tepe is an archaeological site in Turkmenistan that was inhabited by Indo-Iranian peoples until sometime in the 2nd millennium BCE dating back to 2500 bc. The site was discovered by Greek-Russian archaeologist Viktor Sarianidi. Sarianidi discovered a palace, a fortified mud-brick enclosure, and temples with fire altars which he believes were dedicated to the Zoroastrian religion. He also found what appears to be the boiler for the ritual drink soma, which is mentioned in the Rigveda and haoma as in the avesta. Sarianidi says he also found dishes with traces of cannabis, poppy and ephedrine. According to Sarianidi, this discovery strengthens the theory that these were the ingredients of soma. The site was most likely abandoned after the Murghab River's course moved to the west. Sarianidi declares it as the 5th oldest civilization on earth not just a culture but a lost civilization.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Gunar_Tepe

11.

The Rig Veda talks of a battle of Ten Kings and different tribes from different geographical locations. What is your take on this?

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I am reading your pdof at scribd slowly. A few questions, if you could spare some time to answer some of my doubts.

From our model, the Indus Valley was only gradually settled in from Baluchistan.The languages of Baluchistan, an example being Pashto, are a part of the Eastern Iranian family of languages, and are distinct from what we may refer to as Old Indic (which refer to the pre-Sanskritic languages of India and include the languages of the IVC), on thelines of Gimbutas’ Old Europe .However there is a time gap of 4400 years from Mehrgarh Phase One to the start of the Mature Harappan phase, and is quite likely thatthe spilt up between Eastern Iranian and Old Indic (i.e. the languages of the IVC) had already taken place by then.

Q.1. What are the other Old Indic languages of India other than the so far undeciphered IVC script?

Q.2 Are there any details of the language used in Mehgarh? Any inscriptions/pottery etc? i.e What language/script would have been used there?

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Posted (edited)

Whew. Mr. Sujoy. That is a huge paper to read.

And i am enjoying reading it. because you refer and reason in proper means and methods and do not lean to any fringe angle.

filing all your papers on Zotero to refer to later!! Thanks!!

Edited by The_Spartan

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Trying to establish the AIT/AMT purely on the basis of Linguistics is like trying to prove a person guilty of murder without even a trace of a corpse. Philology can not be a substitute for archaeological evidence. And since Philology is the only evidence used by Indologists to establish the 1500-1100 (actually there are quite a few set of dates) antiquity of RV, this must also be called into question and not assumed to be a historical fact.

Sujayrao your so called research paper seems to be derived heavily from Witzel and you also seem to be oblivious to its criticism by Kazana's, Bryant, et al.

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The latest on this is the ebook:

"A Horse Amongst Donkeys"

A fresh translation os a few hymns from the Rigveda.

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Posted (edited)

In almost all of Hindu Mythology there is a continous struggle between the Daevas and Asuras. With epic battles and Warrior Cheftains on both sides. Asura's losing the war and being forced to migrate is a very credible scenario.

Also the question that if they did migrate could they have gone as far as the South Americas and Australia?

http://timesofindia....ow/18029070.cms

SYDNEY: People from the Indian sub-continent migrated to Australia and mixed with Aborigines 4,000 years ago, bringing the dingo dog with them, according to a study published on Tuesday.

The continent was thought to have been isolated from other populations until Europeans landed at the end of the 1700s.

But researchers at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, reported "evidence of substantial gene flow between Indian populations and Australia about 4,000 years ago".

They analysed genetic variation from across the genome from Australian Aborigines, New Guineans, Southeast Asians, and Indians.

"Long before Europeans settled in Australia humans had migrated from the Indian subcontinent to Australia and mixed with Australian Aborigines," the study said.

It found "substantial gene flow from India to Australia 4,230 years ago ie... well before European contact," it said.

"Interestingly," said researcher Irina Pugach, "this date also coincides with many changes in the archaeological record of Australia, which include a sudden change in plant processing and stone tool technologies... and the first appearance of the dingo in the fossil record.

"Since we detect inflow of genes from India into Australia at around the same time, it is likely that these changes were related to this migration," she said.

A common origin was also discovered for the Australian, New Guinean and Philippine Mamanwa populations who had followed a southern migration route out of Africa begun more than 40,000 years ago.

The researchers estimate the groups split about 36,000 years ago.

Australia offers some of the earliest archaeological evidence for the presence of humans outside Africa, with sites dated to at least 45,000 years ago.

Also i would like to point out that the Mayans followed Venus for their calendar (Asuras are Known to have followed Venus or 'Shukra',and shukracharya was their leader and the daevas followed Jupiter or 'Brihaspati' as their leader).

There are many astounding similarities.The tales of wars between Daevas and Asuras state that the Dominion over the living world was controlled by the Asuras at one point of time after which the Daevas teaming up with the 'Maruts' (Sons of Shiva) defeated the Asuras and forced them to migrate or to put it more in perspective,banished them.

I don't know how old your source is, but it's been totally overhauled in recent years.

The Out of Africa theory has been upheld, and the presence of Austronesian people along the Indian coastline, as well as South East Asia is explained by the Coastal Migration.

The Australian Aborigines have been in Australia for between about 50,000 to 120,000 years, and it's believed that they were in one of the earliest Out of Africa Migrations.

I've not heard of migration from India into Australia since the Aborigines first arrived.

As for South America, the accepted history is that the "Amerindians" migrated from Siberia to the area between Siberia and Alaska, and known as Beringia.

They then migrated south along the west coast and middle of what is now the American continent to South America, some eventually reaching Terra Del Fuego.

Again, I've never heard suggestion of Indian migration to the Americas.

Edited by toyomotor

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Well, toyomotor, the person you are replying to, is no longer on U-M.

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Its so weird to see that words from such far away area of the world have so much similarity to the words of Croatian language that @Big Bad Voodoo has posted in first posts in this thread.

Interesting posts here, thnx ppl.

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Posted (edited)

Well, toyomotor, the person you are replying to, is no longer on U-M.

Well, I guess I wastedmy time, didn't I? :blush:

Thanks for the info, I could have been here arguing with myself for the next three months. :tu:

Edited by toyomotor
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