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Still Waters

Fish cannot feel pain say scientists

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What fish do to each other is perfectly natural. What anglers do to fish is simply idle pleasure - sport!

Agree, but do also agree with those who catch fish to eat, thats part of natures way. Its the sport bit I do not agree with, but do not really want to carry on about that, it could be grounds for divorce for me. :cry:

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Thats called a food chain. Without it we are not able to use our brains efficiently. Are you aware of how much grass youd have to eat each day to run a human brain at minimal efficiency. Ill just say you wouldnt be leaving the table except to use the crapper.

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ive caught and released many fish without touching them at all. obviously you dont have a clue about anything youre talking about.

In my younger days I was a very keen angler indeed and I can tell you that It would be a rare occasion when a fish would be so lightly hooked that it wouldn't be necessary to handle it. What if a fish swallowed the hook would you not have to handle it then? Also, it doesn't have to be handling with human hands, a landing net has the same effect in that damage is caused to the fish's slime coat. In later years I developed an interest in keeping fish in aquaria, both cold water, (exotic goldfish), and tropical. I read everything I could get my hands on about the subject and when I started to learn just how sensitive fish are I gave up angling. I don't condemn angling as I found it to be a very enjoyable outdoor hobby. It's just that having learned all that I did about fish physiology I made a personal decision to stop catching them. Fish are highly susceptible to the stress that results from sudden changes in their environment eg., water temperature and water chemistry as well. Also snatching them from their natural surroundings into a totally alien environment with a hook in their mouths, unhooking them leaving them wounded, and returning them to the water with the inevitable damage to their slime coats which in itself leaves them vulnerable to infection. All of these stresses result in the temporary breakdown of their immune systems, (that is fact, not something that just came out of my head. It is fish-keepers' basic knowledge), during which time they are open to attack from parasites and fish pathogens. You said, "ive caught and released many fish without touching them at all." You caught and released many fish without touching them? Well bully for you! From my own angling experience I find that to be incredible indeed! Anyway, handling them isn't the most harmful thing. Look back over my list of other fish stresses. You couldn't have avoided any of those! Also you said, "obviously you don't have a clue about anything you're talking about." I think anyone reading the above will easily conclude that I DO know what I'm talking about and that YOU are the one who doesn't!!

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There's no reason to think that they don't feel pain. The same science that claims their nervous system is too primitive to feel pain has done experiments on lesser animals with pain as a negative stimulus. The bait feels pain when stuck with the hook. It starts writhing at the first touch of the point of the hook, long before it's trapped. If something with the brain of a worm can feel pain then surely a fish can. As a younger man I was an avid fisherman but I gave it up years ago because I could no longer justify causing pain in another creature merely for my own amusement. I agree with the previous poster who keeps aquariums. I kept fish for many years and they are more intelligent that we give them credit for. Much can be explained by instinct but what do we call it when instinct adapts to non-natural situations? It's quite clear to anyone familiar with animals, whether as pets or prey, that they are capable of thinking. Sensing pain seems much more elemental than thought so I would think we'd have to go much farther down the food chain before finding a living creature that does not feel pain.

Very well said. I completely agree. Please see my recent post at 5.47pm.

I copied and pasted the following from Wikipedia as a matter of interest:

Experiments by William Tavolga provide evidence that fish have pain and fear responses. For instance, in Tavolga’s experiments, toadfish grunted when electrically shocked, and over time they came to grunt at the mere sight of an electrode.[12] Additional tests conducted at the Roslin Institute and University of Edinburgh, in which bee venom and acetic acid was injected into the lips of rainbow trout, resulted in fish rubbing their lips along the sides and floors of their tanks, which the researchers believe was an effort to relieve themselves of pain.[13] One researcher argues about the definition of pain used in the studies.[14] Since this initial work Dr Lynne Sneddon and her lab have characterised pain in rainbow trout, common carp and zebrafish.[15]

In a 2009 paper, Janicke Nordgreen from the Norwegian School of Veterinary Science, Joseph Garner from Purdue University, and others, published research which concluded that goldfish do feel pain, and that their reactions to pain are much like those of humans.[16] "There has been an effort by some to argue that a fish's response to a noxious stimulus is merely a reflexive action, but that it didn't really feel pain," Garner said. "We wanted to see if fish responded to potentially painful stimuli in a reflexive way or a more clever way."[17] The fish were divided into two groups, one given morphine and the other saline. They were then subjected to unpleasant temperatures. The fish that were given saline subsequently acted with defensive behaviours, indicating anxiety, wariness and fear, whereas those given morphine did not.[17] Nordgreen said that the behavioural differences they found showed that fish feel both reflexive and cognitive pain. "The experiment shows that fish do not only respond to painful stimuli with reflexes, but change their behavior also after the event," Nordgreen said. "Together with what we know from experiments carried out by other groups, this indicates that the fish consciously perceive the test situation as painful and switch to behaviors indicative of having been through an aversive experience."[17]

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Pain is an alarm system for self danger. If animals don't evolve to feel pain then they wouldn't know how much damage certain actions would do to their bodies. Pain helps in survival by avoiding things and activities that are destructive to the animal.

Agreed!

Cropped_trout_3.jpg

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An interesting read from Wikipedia:

Experiments by William Tavolga provide evidence that fish have pain and fear responses. For instance, in Tavolga’s experiments, toadfish grunted when electrically shocked, and over time they came to grunt at the mere sight of an electrode.[12] Additional tests conducted at the Roslin Institute and University of Edinburgh, in which bee venom and acetic acid was injected into the lips of rainbow trout, resulted in fish rubbing their lips along the sides and floors of their tanks, which the researchers believe was an effort to relieve themselves of pain.[13] One researcher argues about the definition of pain used in the studies.[14] Since this initial work Dr Lynne Sneddon and her lab have characterised pain in rainbow trout, common carp and zebrafish.[15]

In a 2009 paper, Janicke Nordgreen from the Norwegian School of Veterinary Science, Joseph Garner from Purdue University, and others, published research which concluded that goldfish do feel pain, and that their reactions to pain are much like those of humans.[16] "There has been an effort by some to argue that a fish's response to a noxious stimulus is merely a reflexive action, but that it didn't really feel pain," Garner said. "We wanted to see if fish responded to potentially painful stimuli in a reflexive way or a more clever way."[17] The fish were divided into two groups, one given morphine and the other saline. They were then subjected to unpleasant temperatures. The fish that were given saline subsequently acted with defensive behaviours, indicating anxiety, wariness and fear, whereas those given morphine did not.[17] Nordgreen said that the behavioural differences they found showed that fish feel both reflexive and cognitive pain. "The experiment shows that fish do not only respond to painful stimuli with reflexes, but change their behavior also after the event," Nordgreen said. "Together with what we know from experiments carried out by other groups, this indicates that the fish consciously perceive the test situation as painful and switch to behaviors indicative of having been through an aversive experience."[17

]

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"toadfish grunted when electrically shocked,"

----------------------------------------------------------------

WHY?? why do humans even want to do this in the first place?

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"toadfish grunted when electrically shocked,"

---------------------------------------------------------------

WHY?? why do humans even want to do this in the first place?

“He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.”

J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring

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as I have said i am not the angler, but my husband has said many anglers have medical kits specially for fish with damaged scales or damaged mouths.

What the hell? I've never heard of nor seen that! Do they slap a band-aid on the puncture wound caused by the hook?

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What the hell? I've never heard of nor seen that! Do they slap a band-aid on the puncture wound caused by the hook?

Can't speak for others but plenty of Carp fishermen carry all sorts of stuff to sort a fish out - ointments and whatnot for different problems.

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What the hell? I've never heard of nor seen that! Do they slap a band-aid on the puncture wound caused by the hook?

http://www.harrissportsmail.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=17346&gclid=CKTxm-Sn67QCFbMbtAod4TcA3w

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Can't speak for others but plenty of Carp fishermen carry all sorts of stuff to sort a fish out - ointments and whatnot for different problems.

That doesn't make sense to me. Around here, carp are garbage fish. They sound more like scientist/researchers than fishermen. Now I'm going to be looking for this every time I go fishing. <_<

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That doesn't make sense to me. Around here, carp are garbage fish. They sound more like scientist/researchers than fishermen. Now I'm going to be looking for this every time I go fishing. <_<

Doesn`t make sense to me either, I am just relaying what my avid angler husband is yelling at me in my left ear. :cry:

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That doesn't make sense to me. Around here, carp are garbage fish. They sound more like scientist/researchers than fishermen. Now I'm going to be looking for this every time I go fishing. <_<

They are highly sort after prize catch over here, on most carp lakes the regulars know the stock well, their size at the last catch, their feeding habits etc....the fish get better treatment then many of the fellas wives ;)

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They are highly sort after prize catch over here, on most carp lakes the regulars know the stock well, their size at the last catch, their feeding habits etc....the fish get better treatment then many of the fellas wives ;)

tell me about it! :passifier::D

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I've kept fish for a long time, and I can recall a few instances where they seemed to feel pain. Once, I netted a freshwater catfish from my aquarium and one of its barbs got stuck in the net. It was calm until I touched the seemingly tender spot by the barb when I was trying to free it.

Another time, I was nursing a koi fish that had an ulcer. Being pretty tame fish, they'll let you stroke them, or feed them by hand. Some will even let you pick them up out of the water if they're comfortable enough with you. While petting this fish in a nursery tub, I accidentally grazed the ulcer and it had a violent reaction letting me know not to do that.

Whether they feel emotion like Simbi was saying, I'm not sure. They will absolutely demonstrate fear. I know they're happy to see me, but that's because they associate me with food, which at the very least dispells the idea that they have little to no memory recall ability. There's a kit out there that will let you train goldfish to do stunts.

Fish are low on the food chain and don't get much empathy but I must say I have had many that recognized people for food.

I've kept and even bred fish but usually just as you would a plants not as a "pets", however some stood out over the years. A catfish danced in it's own way and came to the top and rolled over so I could rub it's belly. A parrotfish recognized me from other people who fed her because she'd only do a "flippy dance" and toss rocks for me so I'd feed her a favorite pellot food and rub her head. This tells me she actually had a memory to tell me from others and it could have been because I am the one who also makes the tank clean compared to the others that fed her?

To say fish don't feel pain because it's a subconscious reaction seems silly. I think nature is humane and gives them less nerves then us but they'd still feel something. Makes me think of our sciatic nerve that makes people react unconsciously too, but is still very painful. Fish probably evolved not to have many nerves because that would inhibit them from rapid escape. But to say just because they don't have as sensitive mouth nerves that they don't feel pain elsewhere doesn't make sense.

As in any scientific study....follow the money ....I'd ask who funded the research???

We all live off the death of other animals or plants but if we kill for food it should be as humane as possible, that's the one thing that should separate us from the creatures lower on the food chain. We shouldn't be justifying not having any compassion by saying scientific studies show they don't react the same way as we would!

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Who cares? Fish are for eating anyway.

:td:

Cows are for eating too. Who has no interest in killing these creatures humanely knowing that they feel pain, because "they're for eating". Wow. Just wow.

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:td:

Cows are for eating too. Who has no interest in killing these creatures humanely knowing that they feel pain, because "they're for eating". Wow. Just wow.

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Mmmmm.... steak.

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Foxes definitely feel pain yet people still hunt them for sport... we are a strange species, aren't we?

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DO fish feel pain??? Is than a Rhetorical question!

any sport where you hunt and kill animals for a sick pleasure, is cruel... but it doesn't stop anyone... so this entire article is kind of a waste of time! haa

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DO fish feel pain??? Is than a Rhetorical question!

any sport where you hunt and kill animals for a sick pleasure, is cruel... but it doesn't stop anyone... so this entire article is kind of a waste of time! haa

Not so. It stops Hindus, Jains, Buddhsts and all the ethical vegans and vegetarians in the world.

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What fish do to each other is perfectly natural. What anglers do to fish is simply idle pleasure - sport!

Wrong again, It is a pleasure to catch fish,but it is more fun to eat them,How you can simply say what anglers do is just for pleasure and sport,Well it is but there are some people who survive by catching fish,I survived for a month on fish that I caught and am here today because I knew how to fish,Your not totally wrong you just forgot to add the part of nessesity,Dang I spelled that wrong,Darn it,LOL

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DO fish feel pain??? Is than a Rhetorical question!

any sport where you hunt and kill animals for a sick pleasure, is cruel... but it doesn't stop anyone... so this entire article is kind of a waste of time! haa

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha,Your funny.
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My understanding of primitive life (like protozoa) is that they react to negative stimuli by moving away from it. So certainly a more complex vertebrate animal will move away from negative stimuli (and also likely move toward positive stimuli). It is very difficult to quantify the "feelings" of an animal beyond observation, we cannot "get into their skin". Many mammals show emotion, and certainly elephants, primates like apes and various others show a very wide range of emotions, even a few bird species like parrots show obvious emotion. These animals also make a wide range of audible sounds and it is fairly easy to know when they fell pain or discomfort or when they are emotionally stressed. It is more difficult to know if more primitive animals like fish, reptiles and amphibians have the mental capacity to show anything we would recognize as emotions, though you can see what appears to be anger when they are on the defensive. Their ectothermic nature (cold-bloodedness) may play a part in how we perceive their emotions and pain response as well. Most of these animals also are "voiceless" as well (other than a few grunts, clicks, and hisses) so it is not as easy to know a pain response.

There are theories that when an animal is attacked, shock takes over and "numbs" the animal, I don't know if there have been actual studies to support this, or whether this is the human response to an animal attack (like a grizzly) that survivors have reported and they have extrapolated this onto a prey animal attacked by a carnivore. Point is, it's possible that shock lessen any pain they feel upon being caught.

But suppose a fish can fell pain, what then? Do we stop fishing? Call me cynical but I always wonder about the political agenda behind a question like this. We slaughter chickens, cows, hogs. We hunt deer, turkey and other wild game, all of which are more closely related to humans that a fish and likely have a greater capacity to fell pain. Humans are omnivores, we eat both plants and animals. This is true for the vast majority of humanity on the planet though a few cultures are vegetarian and few like the Inuit were (at least at one time) nearly totally carnivorous. So whether a fish can feel pain or not, we as a species will continue to catch fish and eat fish. Pass the mahi-mahi.

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