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CakeOrDeath

Why do none of you want to be rich?

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To the lovely people on this forum who do embrace their gifts, how can I continue to develop mine? I have had experiences showing that I may be a medium, but I often struggle with differing what I'm getting versus what could be my own thoughts. I often times don't want to say anything for fear of being wrong. The first time I spoke up, i was validated and it encouraged me to speak up the second, and then third time. I haven't opened up since. Any thoughts and suggestions are very welcome!

The way I learnt to learn the difference between my own thoughts, and anothers was meditation... Learning to quiet the mind is the first step to learning the difference between thoughts. Its the moments in between each of your thoughts you should learn to listen to carefully

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If you have alot of "other vocies" in your head between thoughts, the first thing I would do is share that experience with your family doctor and see if they refer you to someone for proper diagnosis.

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On the other hand i found from my experience tha two things work. An open mind, and developing a sensitivity to your instinctive first thoughts Most of my paranormal abilities come to me in an instant. If i am open to them i hear them if i follow tha tfirst nanaoseconds response I am right. If i hesitate or deny the possibility even for a second or two it disappears.

This, in part, fits with cia funded darpa research which demonstrated that we can ALL predict the next few seconds of our life. This might have cost millions to prove something which is logically self evident, but none the less it is interesting.

Then you need to study, practice, work at things, like any other talent or skill.

You will be wrong (or inmy case simply not know) sometimes, and you need to be honest about this, and not try and fake it. Faking it sets up other pathways in your mind, and seems to block off the natural right responses

However once something is in your mind DO think carefully about how it will affect a listener, and be careful how you say something, and what you say. You might even choose NOT to reveal something, if you know it will hurt another..

Edited by Mr Walker

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If you have alot of "other vocies" in your head between thoughts, the first thing I would do is share that experience with your family doctor and see if they refer you to someone for proper diagnosis.

Although I understood what you were implying I will say Medical/Physological Doctors are not educated in this area... and there diagnosis would be incorrect. I will see my Family doctor for the flu, or may be my bad Knee...

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Although I understood what you were implying I will say Medical/Physological Doctors are not educated in this area... and there diagnosis would be incorrect. I will see my Family doctor for the flu, or may be my bad Knee...

Haha... I did go see someone at first, because I did think I was losing it. The psychiatrist, perfectly well-trained and with decades of experience, did NOT diagnose me with any "disorder". So no, I don't have a mental disorder that causes me to hear and see things that aren't there.

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I think that in many ways it just doesn't work like that.Sometimes a person may try to actively foresee an exact outcome of an exact situation, but it may end up being about an event unrelated to something like the lottery. For example, a true "precog" may see/sense the numbers 12, 27, 81, 92, 43 when trying to figure out lottery numbers and be completely off the mark, but then they may find out those numbers correspond to something else (meaningful and significant without having to be far-fetched), such as being invited to a kid's 12th birthday party on the 27th of the month where there are exactly 81 people attending in a building on 92nd Street, and the presents you bought them just happen to come out to $43.00 exactly. Sometimes a truly precognitive person doesn't always see what they necessarily WANT to see, but if you are truly precognitive, whatever you are seeing will almost always come to pass. Another example to close my case (for now, anyway): Say a person sees something weird like liquid nitrogen and a Camarro in their future, not long before their birthday. They may assume that since their dad just told them he was going to buy them a car that it is going to be a Camarro and somehow liquid nitrogen is connected to the car (I know it's weird, but just work with me here). Their dad instead gives them a 2001 Mustang or something like that, and it has nothing to do with liquid nitrogen. Obviously the vision was wrong right? Well, let's assume that 12 hours or 24 hours later they are offered unexpectedly offered a ride by someone driving a Camarro, and while riding with them they tell you about their work and that they actually do things with liquid nitrogen. The trouble with a lot of precognitive people is that they often make assumptions about what they are seeing (you are trying to see lottery numbers but instead see numbers related to a birthday party, or you see a car on your birthday and assume it is your present when it is actually the limited description of a future event unrelated to your birthday). To paraphrase Raven Baxter from That's So Raven: Sometimes you see it right but read it wrong. Either way,as I said before, if you are truly precognitive, whether or not what you predict is related to the current situation you are trying to find information about, you will almost always see your prediction come true. Plain and simple.

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...but it may end up being about an event unrelated to something like the lottery...

Given that our brains are absolutely *wonderful* at massaging (and if necessary slightly altering or selectively remembering) data to fit situations, I'm afraid you have to very careful of what scientists call "Confirmation Bias". It's rather like pareidolia - our brains are exceptionally good at finding patterns and shapes from randomness. And there *will* be coincidences..

You simply can't do an after the event analysis and see what else you can find to match up - that's exactly what Confirmation Bias is - you are almost certain to find something, and that will just re-inforce your belief - all the misses get ignored, when in fact their existence is far more important than the odd selective hits..

The simple fact is that as soon as you use proper controls, the 'effect' vanishes or becomes statistically insignificant.

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As far as getting tested goes, those of you talking like that are thinking from a purely scientific standpoint. While your points are quite relevant, let's assume someone with demonstrated psychic abilities steps forward and gets tested. As you know, science is generally not satisfied with a couple of tests. When a theory (especially one purported to challenge the established laws of physics as we know them) is brought to the fore, dozens, if not hundreds of tests needs to be done. This also comes along with exposure and the risk of ridicule (from religion, psychology, colleagues, and even worse, family), not to mention the amount of pressure put on that person by both those who see the person as their Golden Chalice and those skeptics looking for any and every questionable result they can find. That is a lot of freaking pressure! Hell, I don't even know if one million dollars from James Randi is worth all that! So what's better? Just telling a few select people you can trust, and going on with your normal existence with the normal paycheck you get every one to two weeks? Or dealing with a scientifically and psychologically revolutionary find that makes you rich beyond your wildest dreams while being pressured, ridiculed and quite possibly rejected, regardless of whether you pass or fail? Different people will choose different things, but can you really blame people for choosing the former over the latter? Besides, you talk about bettering humanity? If there truly are Reiki or vitakinetic healers and empaths in the world, should they be blessed and able to help even a few people, even one, is that not doing something for mankind in and of itself? If a truly precognitive person can give hope for the future to even one soul, isn't that helping people in some way? Why on Earth should truly gifted people have to reveal themselves in this time and age just to be able to help someone? Silent good Samaritans exist everywhere, be they paranormal or be they mundane.

Edited by Simatong
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Meh, there are people in every demographic that thrive on pressure and challenge and risk vs reward. There are soooo many magically gifted people on this site and others like it, that I find it rather implausible that none of them have that "Michael jordan" out look, that not one of these gifted psionicists has decided to "Magneto" it up abit.

To me it seems like a built in crutch. I always hear the same 2 tired arguements. 1 - we are too altruistic to want to reap any personal accolades or attention. 2 - We are afraid we will become guinea pigs.

Surely someone in the masses of you wthl these awesome abilities has to have the stones to accept the challenge, to champion that cause for your gifted brethren?

Edited by CakeOrDeath

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Given that our brains are absolutely *wonderful* at massaging (and if necessary slightly altering or selectively remembering) data to fit situations, I'm afraid you have to very careful of what scientists call "Confirmation Bias". It's rather like pareidolia - our brains are exceptionally good at finding patterns and shapes from randomness. And there *will* be coincidences..

You simply can't do an after the event analysis and see what else you can find to match up - that's exactly what Confirmation Bias is - you are almost certain to find something, and that will just re-inforce your belief - all the misses get ignored, when in fact their existence is far more important than the odd selective hits..

The simple fact is that as soon as you use proper controls, the 'effect' vanishes or becomes statistically insignificant.

I am well aware of confirmation bias, and while in many situations it can be pegged as the culprit, there comes a point in time when it can no longer be the case. But it also comes down to evaluation of what is seen. You see liquid nitrogen in relation to a Camarro. What are the chances that within one day of having this vision, a person who gives you a ride in a Camarro starts talking about working with liquid nitrogen (a topic you yourself did not bring up). Besides, confirmation bias also seems to imply that you are really grasping for straws (thinking of your friend and thinking about them wearing a blue shirt, then getting a call from them with them talking about getting a new blue shirt, afterwards saying you foresaw it, even though they call you once every 2 to 3 days, they buy new shirts on an almost monthly basis, and their favorite color is blue). However, having a vision about liquid nitrogen and a Camarro and then having someone drive a Camarro while talking about liquid nitrogen isn't looking for any old type of confirmation that may remotely fit. The liquid nitrogen in relation to a Camarro is exactly what the person saw.

For the sake of argument, one would be able to explain this as coincidence if this was an isolated incident, but if this is a consistent thing, I can't call it confirmation bias.

1) Say the same precognitive person sees a vision about a a whole bunch of teeth and dentist imagery in a garbage dump and/or a garbage man surrounded by teeth, and a week later is in the dentist's office where a garbage man sitting next to him is complaining about needing to get his teeth pulled after he just got back from the dump

2)That same precognitive person has a vision that they are watching the Nutcracker play and a car cashes through the stage, and a month later his teacher comes in with a broken arm because she was in a car accident a half an hour after seeing the Nutcracker play

3) The precog sees a vision about an alien on a motorcycle wearing a dominatrix suit while holding an obsidian stone, and a week later he and his date go to see a movie about aliens (that he had no prior knowledge of and didn't know he was going to see until one day prior), and after the date he is taken to a biker bar where there's a man wearing an alien on the shirt. His (the biker's) girlfriend says she is a dominatrix and the man starts randomly talking about his love of geology and the peculiarities of obsidian.

These visions coming from the same person, with similar situations happening over and over, cannot be considered confirmation bias. Things can only happen so many times before they are no longer considered coincidence, which is why I advocate for self-testing (for those who believe they are psychic/telekinetic, and I would probably suggest doing testing over at least a 1-2 year span, if not more). If you are truly psychic or telekinetic, the experiences will happen so many times and/or in such a way that confirmation bias can no longer be considered as a factor

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Best thread ever.

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Meh, there are people in every demographic that thrive on pressure and challenge and risk vs reward. There are soooo many magically gifted people on this site and others like it, that I find it rather implausible that none of them have that "Michael jordan" out look, that not one of these gifted psionicists has decided to "Magneto" it up abit.

To me it seems like a built in crutch. I always hear the same 2 tired arguements. 1 - we are too altruistic to want to reap any personal accolades or attention. 2 - We are afraid we will become guinea pigs.

Surely someone in the masses of you wthl these awesome abilities has to have the stones to accept the challenge, to champion that cause for your gifted brethren?

Many of those with actual psychic abilities have and do step up to the challenge, just not in front of an entire scientific community breathing down their necks! They step up to the plate when questioned by friends, family and the general detractor. In my mind, if you make a claim and have the balls to back it up to even just one person, screw what the other fockers say! As for the people on this forum, you KNOW that many of them have questionable claims, and quite frankly, it seems that in many ways and in many posts, this is just another manga/x-men fest where Jean Grey-wannabes are a dime-a-dozen, but the less-than-serious fluffs on here should not be seen as speakers for the serious believers on here, nor should they be seen as representatives of the entire parapsychological community (both the believers and "the gifted")

Edited by Simatong
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ROFL you step up...to your family hehe, that is brave and epic.

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ROFL you step up...to your family hehe, that is brave and epic.

Never said I personally did that, but yes, some people probably do. What? It means almost nothing simply because it is their family? Why does something have to be epic? Why can't it simply be enough that someone is willing to show proof to someone, regardless of whether it's a family member or a scientist?

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Haha... I did go see someone at first, because I did think I was losing it. The psychiatrist, perfectly well-trained and with decades of experience, did NOT diagnose me with any "disorder". So no, I don't have a mental disorder that causes me to hear and see things that aren't there.

Likewise. But, of course, get anything related to your health checked out if it is of concern. I was diagnosed as "exceptionally well grounded and highly functional" with no discernable psychological or physiological disorders or abnormalities.

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Given that our brains are absolutely *wonderful* at massaging (and if necessary slightly altering or selectively remembering) data to fit situations, I'm afraid you have to very careful of what scientists call "Confirmation Bias". It's rather like pareidolia - our brains are exceptionally good at finding patterns and shapes from randomness. And there *will* be coincidences..

You simply can't do an after the event analysis and see what else you can find to match up - that's exactly what Confirmation Bias is - you are almost certain to find something, and that will just re-inforce your belief - all the misses get ignored, when in fact their existence is far more important than the odd selective hits..

The simple fact is that as soon as you use proper controls, the 'effect' vanishes or becomes statistically insignificant.

The first part of this is very true. The second is not necessarily so.

Ive had nearly 60 years living with this, and i can guarantee that real precog events occur. I've had dvd quality dreams of an event which i later saw played out a day or a week later in real life, or on a television news programme. Accurate to the point where i can relay verbatim the dialogue of people on the news before they say it.

I've had warning dreams of the future which unfolded exactly as I dreamed, until I chose to create a different pathway which diverged from the dream version. I've foreseen nearly every card in a pack of cards before they were turned over. I've predicted births deaths and occurences for other people. Mostly i find lost objects, but also i have many verified and verifiable OBE experiences sometimes using control measure to veryify them.

My most sustained effort was over several years at uni where i used precog to back horses Although i only kept a paper ledger rather than use actual cash which Being a uni student i didnt have at the time I made enough to pay my whole living expenses each year on paper. ie a reasonable wage. That was done by putting the minimum bet on the horses i "saw" using precog, but only placing bets on the ones with higher odds. So a fifty cent win bet might win 5 to ten dollars,

Later in life i made a nice side income picking lottery numbers and, against the odds, made a small but consistent profit. Today I dont worry because this takes considerable time and effort.. When there is a big prize, I just buy a prepicked/computer generated, set of numbers and I steadily lose a small amount of money.

I only claim verifiable events as real where there are multiple witnesses or I can physically verify the accuracy of an event. There are many others i know are real but dont claim, as I can't "prove" them.

No one has ever tested me independently, nor i suspect, the vast majority of human beings with similar experiencnes And there are very intriguing controlled test results over the latter part of the 20th century ,which were written up in a number of books I have read over the years.

Edited by Mr Walker

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See it's honestly not about "proof" that's not what I want at all. What I want if for someone of your people, to CHANGE the world by exposing the world to the fact that there is higher abilities, and we can GAIN and learn from individuals with extraordinary powers, again specifically engery powers, like the various kinesis(geese plural?) and psi balls, levitation etc etc.

I can't honestly beleive with so many people out there that not one, not one individual has felt the need to share (ya altruistic) with the world these special gifts. instead they are content, ALL of them, to lurk on various web sites discussing with their ilk, how big their psi ballz are, and how they moved a ball bearing (why is it always round?) on their kitchen table...

Edited by CakeOrDeath

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Meh, there are people in every demographic that thrive on pressure and challenge and risk vs reward. There are soooo many magically gifted people on this site and others like it, that I find it rather implausible that none of them have that "Michael jordan" out look, that not one of these gifted psionicists has decided to "Magneto" it up abit.

To me it seems like a built in crutch. I always hear the same 2 tired arguements. 1 - we are too altruistic to want to reap any personal accolades or attention. 2 - We are afraid we will become guinea pigs.

Surely someone in the masses of you wthl these awesome abilities has to have the stones to accept the challenge, to champion that cause for your gifted brethren?

Those are genuine concerns First i DO benefit from my gifts quite a bit. Imagine playing the pokies when you KNOW which machine is a bout to pay out a few thousand dollars. And I DO use them to help anyone who asks, if I can.

But second i am a person to whom material things are irrelevant compared with wisdom and spiritual knowledge and the abilty to help others.

Second I learned very early in life that these abilities can, do, and will, cause real problems; both i, relationships with others and also to your credibilty and hence things like work prospects. Sometimes they can even land you in trouble with the law. Imagine trying to explain how you "knew" where the proceeds from a robbery were, because you were psychic. I was banned from local lotteries, and i had to stop (voluntarily) using the pokies in my town as extra income, because people were complaining how i always won.

Edited by Mr Walker

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CakeorDeath, I can understand your sentiment and it sounds reasonable and logical. I personally know of someone who has used their gifts to try and help others. From giving psychic readings to trying to give advice to close friends about how to handle their abilities (should they truly have them), and they have done other things with their abilities that have been done for the betterment of some people, but again, they just didn't feel like broadcasting everywhere! If it helped even one person and that person knew it, that was all it took!The people they helped were "exposed" to it, and it seemed to have given them some form of help. Believe me, there are psychics (and the rare telekinetic) who want to do something to help others on a grand scale, but with all the judgment and criticism, it's hard. Sure, it may be easy for you to imply the old "put up or shut up" adage, but when you feel you have as much to lose as you have to gain, it may put things in a different perspective.

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Again with respect Mr. Walker and to a degree Simatong, when it comes to psychics and empaths, there are examples of them being consulted for investigations and other things. I think down the road, with continued scientific research, we will learn that social conscious and shared conscious have some background in reality.

The focus of my thread is people who are able to REGULARLY create/manipulate the physical boundries of our world with their mind. Light objects on fire or atleast heat them up by focusing their powers, move objects without touching them, levitate objects or as some claim, themselves. Create, sometimes visible balls of electro static energy that can even be "hurled" in some instances. Oh and let's not forget the psy-weaponry thread, where people with alot of psi-ball practice actually manifest their power into psionic-swords.

These things are discussed, techiniques compared and practices shared, here and on other sites, as though it's just matter-o-fact business. Your ascertion, evidently you speak for the psionic cummunity at-large, is that ALL of these people are too afraid and brittle to come forward and suffer the slings and arrows that come with such power....

I don't buy it plain and simple. I group that works so hard at being "mentally tough" to withstand the "searing fire that works it's way almost uncontrolably to my hands..until I reign it in through shear will.." ya that is a near quote from a thread heh, he's afraid of Katie Couric?

Edited by CakeOrDeath

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CakeorDeath, I was also referring to psychokinetic abilities in my previous posts, and again, as I stated, the people that were being helped and/or were witnessing the abilities were enough of an audience. (However,some people who were shown just kind of shrugged it off). I am actually thinking of writing a post for those who make fantastic claims and (genuinely) possess abilities, those who want to find a way to share their gifts (it will also include ways to collect and share evidence). I honestly think that if there are those with genuine abilities who at least make an attempt to show in one form or another that they possess abilities, the conversation between skeptics and believers might be more civilized. But seriously, CakeorDeath, why on Earth would you even attempt to listen to anything that many of these alleged psi-ball makers claim?! You should well know that many of these people do not speak for the entire parapsychological community, let alone the community here. In some ways, many of them are just attention-hungry teeny-boppers. You know that many of them are not even going to try do something, because there is nothing they can try! That's like asking a penguin to show you that birds can fly! Why ask a penguin to do something you know it can't, and then expect its lack of flying ability to be evidence of the fallacy of flight? As intelligent a person as you seem to be, that shouldn't even need to be pointed out!

I myself cannot be considered a person who speaks for the psionic community at large, rather I speak of those I know of and I speak in manner that tries to put myself in many of their shoes.

Edited by Simatong

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The first part of this is very true. The second is not necessarily so.

For amateurs and folks biased towards a result, they both are I'm afraid. That's why science doesn't allow it (except under extremely controlled conditions).

i can guarantee that real precog events occur.

Then please do so!

I only claim verifiable events as real where there are multiple witnesses or I can physically verify the accuracy of an event.

Am I missing something? Where is the documentation of *any* of this? If you can't or won't provide supporting evidence, then these are simply nice stories.

- Do you accept that someone *could* simply make such stories up?

- Or, more likely, that someone could, after a couple of 'hits', convince themselves the effect is real and report that 'fact' here?

I'm not necessarily saying that you haven't had some interesting experiences, perhaps you do have genuine abilities - but what is it that makes your claims true against those who simply make stuff up and post it here for fun, or because of genuinely mistaken self-belief or even self-delusion?

What would make it true is documentation - evidence that you did precognise something beyond a simple coincidence, or that you really are 'beyond lucky' and have been banned for that reason alone, would be a start. Given what you have outlined, it wouldn't be all that hard to do.. I'm happy to elaborate, but it seems the enthusiasm to prove these happenings seems to disappear when push comes to shove, in a strikingly similar way to what happens when people who are experiencing weird ghostly happenings are asked to carry a video camera with them...

There are many others i know are real but dont claim, as I can't "prove" them.

So which ones are you now going to prove? I'm sorry, but proving them to yourself isn't really sufficient...

I'm happy to help show you how you could do that by designing some simple tests in line with your claimed skills.

No one has ever tested me independently, nor i suspect, the vast majority of human beings with similar experiencnes

Er, yes, that's the point I and others are trying to make.. In the cases that have been properly investigated the abilities disappeared, even when the claimant helped design the tests, as in the case of the Randi Challenges for instance.

And there are very intriguing controlled test results over the latter part of the 20th century ,which were written up in a number of books I have read over the years.

Please cite your favourite test and let's debate how 'controlled' it was..

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I can understand Chrizs's desire to see evidence. I had spent the better part of five years testing some abilities for myself, like precognition (I think that amount of time was justified, because as I said in a previous post, the only way to rule out coincidence, or at least to make seem less likely to be coincidence, is to test yourself again and again, doing so so many times that coincidence cannot be seen as the primary cause). I am actually going to write a thread here about testing abilities, and I encourage both the skeptics and the believers to read.

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It's because they either know that by the time they have these psychic powers that this is all an illusion and the riches and luxuries of this world are only temporary and short lived.

or they are not psychic at all.

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For amateurs and folks biased towards a result, they both are I'm afraid. That's why science doesn't allow it (except under extremely controlled conditions).

Then please do so!

Am I missing something? Where is the documentation of *any* of this? If you can't or won't provide supporting evidence, then these are simply nice stories.

- Do you accept that someone *could* simply make such stories up?

- Or, more likely, that someone could, after a couple of 'hits', convince themselves the effect is real and report that 'fact' here?

I'm not necessarily saying that you haven't had some interesting experiences, perhaps you do have genuine abilities - but what is it that makes your claims true against those who simply make stuff up and post it here for fun, or because of genuinely mistaken self-belief or even self-delusion?

What would make it true is documentation - evidence that you did precognise something beyond a simple coincidence, or that you really are 'beyond lucky' and have been banned for that reason alone, would be a start. Given what you have outlined, it wouldn't be all that hard to do.. I'm happy to elaborate, but it seems the enthusiasm to prove these happenings seems to disappear when push comes to shove, in a strikingly similar way to what happens when people who are experiencing weird ghostly happenings are asked to carry a video camera with them...

So which ones are you now going to prove? I'm sorry, but proving them to yourself isn't really sufficient...

I'm happy to help show you how you could do that by designing some simple tests in line with your claimed skills.

Er, yes, that's the point I and others are trying to make.. In the cases that have been properly investigated the abilities disappeared, even when the claimant helped design the tests, as in the case of the Randi Challenges for instance.

Please cite your favourite test and let's debate how 'controlled' it was..

You are confusing conrete evidences with transferrable evidences Everyday we satisfactorily test our reality using concrete evidences. Some of these are reproducible in a lab. but if i talk about the time a dolphin jumped right over my boat when i was out fishing, or indeed the time i almost ended up landing on top of two dophins, (long story ) you must either acecpet that my omn evidences are concrete and verifiable or not. It is impossible for me to transfer those evidences to you and they are not the sort of events which can be reproduced in a laboratory

One online test I had to do was view the contents of a room that was on the other side of the world. I had to describe it as acurately as i could, knowing nothing about it. If i believ the response form the test site, I was over 85% accurate in naming and accurately describing the items in a room (and i didnt know what type of room it was)

I also did one experiment with OBEs. I asked some year 12 boys who were going out that night to a camp site, to write dowm things like; what they were wearing what they were eating drinking etc and also the tpics of their converstion That night i "flew over" to their camp hovered above them and and observed them for neary an hpour while i was home in bed asleep. I woke up and wrote a couple of pages of notes and sealed them in an envelope The boys also did the same. When they got to school we opened the envelopes at the same time and compared them. I was, again, correct in all the details of food, drinks, and clothing BUT, because they got very drunk they couldnt remember much about their conversations. I knew what they were, and they could partially confirm them in general terms but it got a bit embarrasing given some of their topics of conversation.

Those are two of a multitude of cases.. Ps i cant speak for others but i know my stories are true because i use the same evidence and logic in decihering them as i do for alll reality.

So for example I KNOW I am having chicken shaslicks for tea tonight. They are under the griller as I speak. I use the same evidences to confirm that i am really eating chicken shasliks, as i do to confirm I am really having a precognition or an obe or a vision of a lost object

. But i couldnt satisfactoriy prove to you that, right now, I am cooking and about to eat chicken shaslicks. If you were here alongside me you could be a witness, and be as certain as i am. But your'e no,t and we dont have enough to spare for you, anyway. :innocent:

Its simply daft to suggest that things are only real or true if ,and when, they can be scientifically verifiable. None of us could accept the validity of the majority of our own lives if we applied that test. It is only necessary if you wish to provide acceptable transferrable evidences. Even then, a true skeptic will allow their disbelief to overule even scientifically obtained evidences.

Edited by Mr Walker

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